UkDave: stuck in the antidepressant loop

[UkDave]

Thanks again for your reply and advice @Faure it means a lot 🙂

 

On 10/26/2022 at 12:21 PM, Faure said:

Seems like you can mention work stress to the doctor and get signed off another week without mentioning the taper, especially if they don’t believe WD effects exist. If they insist on updosing  then you might need to mention your tapering goals and you can refer them to the guidance and they will probably take a look as it’s from a very respected body (at least in the medical profession).

I have been given a 1 week sick note and the reason for the fit note was "Work Stress"

 

I haven't even seen a doctor this was done by a Eform done by Econsultant, I filled in by link through text form the doctors surgery, then got notified through email with my fit note and a number for the crisis team 🤷🏼‍♂️

 

"I will issue you a 'sick note' but I think it would be a good idea to discuss how youre feeling with your employer/manager/HR dept as there may be things they can put in place to help with how you feel or your workload. 

I understand youve had CBT recently, but ill send you the link for IAPT in case you need it again. "

 

I was like "Ok" Mental ...

 

I don't particularly hate my current job, I am very pedantic about everything atm which I believe is akathisia kicking in because I now believe I gone a little to fast on the lowering the dose.

 

On 10/26/2022 at 12:21 PM, Faure said:

I sympathise with a non existent private life. I think that is common for a lot of people who have had to take anti depressants and deal with all the difficulties of needing them in the first place and then trying to get off them entail. We have to be very selfish to look after ourselves properly (at least I feel that I am very selfish).

It isn't selfish at all, its how our coping mechanisms have worked to protect us. You also have to remember that this medicated road we've been down is a very lonely 1 because no one understands what we've been through and then when we've gone for advice from the doctor that prescribed us them we're almost patronised for bringing up our issues, that in its self manifests being alone.

 

On 10/26/2022 at 12:21 PM, Faure said:

You will get off this medication. Look how far you have come. It sounds like you’re feeling pretty down at the moment and who can blame you. Not liking a job is very difficult. 
 

It also sounds like you have lots of good strategies and things to occupy you so from here it looks like you’re doing pretty well. 

I feel like i've gotten greedy, I never expected to be on this low of a dose or ever understanding what is happening in my mind and body (to a degree), I feel this is a reality check "slow & steady" maybes I haven't being going slow enough because I want to be rid of them out of my system.

 

I updated my medication signature, which made me low because I negatively looked forward as to how long it would take to get off them instead of looking back to see how far I've actually come 

[mstimc]

UKDave. remember, this isn't a race, so don't judge yourself by an artificial timeline.  I had a tapering schedule, but I adjusted it if I felt I wasn't ready for a taper.  Give yourself time to adjust to each reduction and to practice coping skills.  When it comes to WD, slow and steady really is the rule!

[UkDave]

51 minutes ago, mstimc said:

UKDave. remember, this isn't a race, so don't judge yourself by an artificial timeline.  I had a tapering schedule, but I adjusted it if I felt I wasn't ready for a taper.

Thank you for the great advice @mstimc 

 

I weighed out the full tablet, calculated a 5% taper and thought mint i'd be rid of these horrible drugs by date X. As I am quickly finding out, our CNS doesn't run off a schedule unfortunately 😫

 

I am going to hold on the dose I am now until I feel less anxious and more normal (what ever normal is) maybes then think about dropping, like you have just advised I won't be judging myself by time but by how I feel.

 

Truthfully, I have my emotions back to a degree, not numb or have a problem with my libido now so effectively there is no rush.

 

Thanks again for the comment 👍🏼

[Faure]

Can’t get the quote thing to work! You said you looked forward to see how much longer you’ve got to go, but you are on 22% of your original dose. That means you have reduced by 78%. This is a fabulous achievement. And as you say adverse effects are less.  So a hold till you feel less anxious is a very good idea. Be careful not to try to go faster at the lower doses, it can be harder to taper at the lower doses. So when you’re ready to start again, it’s a good idea to follow SA wisdom and stick to 10% of the most recent dose no more frequently than every 4 weeks. 
 

It looks like you’ll get safely off this time and it really doesn’t matter how long it takes. The important thing is to stay well and function while tapering. The alternative is just too miserable to even contemplate.  I hope you start feeling better soon ☺️

[UkDave]

Thanks @Faure 🙏🏼 ... WOW!

 

2 hours ago, Faure said:

You said you looked forward to see how much longer you’ve got to go, but you are on 22% of your original dose. That means you have reduced by 78%. This is a fabulous achievement.

That has certainly evoked a change in my attitude just reading it ... 78% 🤯

 

Its mad how our brains work to trick us, this forum is F***in FANTASTIC!

 

2 hours ago, Faure said:

So a hold till you feel less anxious is a very good idea.

Honest that statistic has made me less anxious, I have my coping mechanisms, that statistic is certainly my latest 1 to be NOT so hung on what dosage i'm taking and to deal with whatever emotions my CNS throws at me in a less anxious manner.

 

Thanks again Faure & @mstimc for helping me put my mind at ease, my body will adapt in the coming weeks then I will hold and give my CNS a rest 😊

[UkDave]

Welllllllllllllll, I've just been down the doctors because my nerves are shot to bits off the taper and i'm still not right to even try and achieve normal day to day tasks never mind going to work in the jungle of idiots, guess what the Doctor said to me after I explained my situation;

 

11mg "You do realise you might as well be just taking a sugar pill"  F?ckin Fuming, what a 🤡

 

He said; I would generally start his patients off on 25mg then to 50mg etc, when he stops the medication he advises his patients to half the dose then half it again before stopping it altogether.

 

He's referred me to a in house therapist for an assessment 🤷🏼‍♂️, honest its an absolute joke but i'm trapped because i'm on the sick from work and I need the sick note to get that SSP ...

 

The reason i'm so annoyed is because i'm so naive to believe the Doctor I seen would understand the situation.

 

Buttttttttttt noooooooooooo medicate, medicate, medicate ...

 

I explained that I stopped drinking alcohol nearly 7 months ago, I eat clean, weight train/exercise 3/4 times a week, educate myself by listening to audio books, podcasts, I have learnt breathing techniques, do cold water therapy. I am more in tune that ever in my life with my mind and body but guess what if i'm experiencing akathisia, hyperacusis, high anxiety ... the depression must have come back and I must need to be back on the medication.

 

I am literally in the best place/physical shape I've been in for nearly 20 years, no toxins in my system

 

BAR ONE, The Anti Depressant ...

 

He then quizzed me if I took recreational drugs, I says no mate I don't and never have touched cocaine or any form of amphetamine << I know that is how he was going to explain the panic behaviour, unreal man.

 

No wonder I've been in this prescribed harm loop for 22 years, unreal.

 

 

[Faure]

Sorry to hear you’ve been forced to talk to a brick wall and that you’re still not feeling good enough to get back to work. I do recommend op you take in a copy of the Royal College of Psychiatrists info sheet on AD WD it’s great and will back you up.  https://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/mental-health/treatments-and-wellbeing/antidepressants my GP was very interested and said he’d “share it with the team”. 

[mstimc]

UK, I'm still amazed at the number of doctors who don't know the first thing about AD withdrawal.  My doctor gave me similar advice when I was tapering.  I really don't think they know the harm they cause, because most of their information comes from pharmaceutical companies and the studies they sponsor.   But you know your own body and what its telling you.  You've come to the right place to get the information and support you need.  You are on the road to recovery!

[UkDave]

Thanks @Faure & @mstimc for the support.

 

I was absolutely shocked, I have read about it lots on this forum, when I crashed last year I seen (telephone 😏) a locum doctor and he wasn't having any of it when I mentioned I was suffering acute withdrawal effects after CT the medication but I was in a bad place and truthfully just wanted to reinstate to get myself back to some sort of equilibrium.

 

Even If I took the literature about the withdrawal this fella was ignorant, I nearly started laughing when he mentioned "The Patient Health Questionnaire (PHQ)". I was gonna say ooorrrrr that questionnaire that is patented by Pfizer!! that questionnaire! I mate if I took that now i'd be off the scale! might as well pump me full of meds 🤷🏼‍♂️

 

I haven't seen a Doctor up until this point because I am on a repeat prescription for my medicaton, I only went to see 1 today for a sick note for the SSP other wise they'd be none the wiser because their has been no follow ups since I reinstated last year.

 

No wonder we are essentially trapped.

[UkDave]

 

Youtube channel:  Psychiatry Simplified

 

Video title and link:  How to Taper Antidepressants to Avoid a Withdrawal (Discontinuation) Syndrome?

 

I got a lot of relief from watching this video, I know it’s knowledge I’ve learned from this site but to see an actual Dr talking about discontinuation syndrome and sighting a study is so refreshing. 
 

The research on how the lower dose reduction is the harshest on our system is great information as well. 

 

Edited November 20, 2022 by ChessieCat
added more info in case video disappears

[UkDave]

I am not doing very at the moment, I have just got another sick note from the doctor for work today till the start of next year.

 

I had an Econsultant with my doctor through the surgeries website for my sick note, I explain my symptoms how I was feeling in a questionnaire style which is then sent to the doctor. he has then sent me a sick without any interaction what so ever << like i'm just another number.

 

I then forward that sick through email to my employer without any further interaction which is making me even more detached given me the feeling like everything is my fault because these people have no empathy for my situation I feel so alone and closed off from the world.

 

I have been doing everything to try and keep myself calm but i'm literally in a world of chaos, My CNS is out of control I can feel EVERYTHING and sounds are literally cutting through me like a knife ... 

 

I hear/feel things I never imagined, taps being turned on downstairs, the kettle being boiled is like an explosion, I didn't even notice I lived on a busy street till I started to hear/feel everyone of the cars driving past which is leading to me being very jumpy trying to justify in my mind where the sound/vibration is coming from leading to me being very volatile which I absolute hate resulting in me feeling like i'm being tortured.

 

I have friends that I interact with and live with my parents but I feel so isolated, my parents they're getting on and it gives me more anxiety the way my moods have started to develop out of the frustration as I don't want to put them in a state of anxiety in thier own home.

 

My diet is on point, well balanced plenty of fruit and veg, plenty of water also the therapeutic side of it listening to audio books, I meditate through listening to music, the physical activity has stopped altogether though having only been to the gym once, the driving to the gym then the people give me so much anxiety and if anybody clashed the weights i'm so jumpy, even playing the piano which brings me great relief has stopped.

 

It is like I'm completely out of control.

 

I did however have a lovely triage yesterday with a women from the Physiological services for CBT therapy, she was very understanding suggesting I have another go at CBT, I knew there would be a waiting list having took 3 months last time, she said the waiting times are now 8 months unfortunately.

 

I know this is all caused by the withdrawal. I have hold my dose at 11mg now for a few weeks and will be stopping at this dose till this wave passes, IF it passes.

[Erimus]

Sorry things are so bad Dave. I can empathise with the acuteness of your situation having being in a similar position late last year and early this year. Based on what you’re describing it sounds like all the dose reductions have caught up with you; you’ve stopped the taper and taken time off work, your nervous system (and yourself) has crashed and all hell has broken loose. The stress fuels you to keep going, until you finally “stop” and all comes crashing down.

 

I know how desperately eager you are to get off the drug, but rushing off it and breaking your neck in the process will only make things worse once you jump. I can’t tell you what to do but holding for an indefinite period would give your body chance to calm down a little, and perhaps you some more clarity of the situation. Don’t put a timescale on it, just wait until the symptoms go away.

 

There is a way to manage this withdrawal whilst still being functional. You need to work out a solution to your employment situation, it sounds like that combined with withdrawal is causing great stress in your life. Each one fuelling the other.

 

Try and enjoy Christmas, and keep up with the non-medication things you’ve done to improve your quality of living.

Edited December 2, 2022 by Erimus

[UkDave]

18 hours ago, Erimus said:

There is a way to manage this withdrawal whilst still being functional. You need to work out a solution to your employment situation, it sounds like that combined with withdrawal is causing great stress in your life. Each one fuelling the other.

This 💯 my problem. I’ve been ok through the year managing the taper, holding longer when I felt myself slipping into being very sensitive/akathisia. 
 

I hate my job and coupled with my sensitivity add to that being overly pedantic (I don’t know if they go hand in hand ?)

 

The job is a means to an end which is how I have always managed it mentally. 
 

The sensitivity to vibrations and hearing every nose which feels like from miles away has my nerves complete shot, I’m in a constant state of fight in my CNS < and I can’t flee/flight because I have nowhere to escape to which means I’m never in a state of calm, so I understand where my frustration/volatility is coming from I just cant seem to find a way to manage it which is turn is like a massive feed back in my system. 

[Erimus]

It’s from a hypersensitive nervous system like you say. Before I was on any pills I felt exactly like that. Anxiety had put me on edge so much I couldn’t tolerate any bright light or loud noises. Doors shutting sent shockwaves through me. 
 

There is one sure fire way to switch off the fight or flight mode (sympathetic nervous system). It’s called diaphragmatic breathing, or box breathing, or deep breathing. It’s the single most effective thing I have used.

 

What you need to do is find a quiet and dark place to lie down. Put some very gentle music on, or perhaps a meditation track. I used the InsightTimer app loads.

 

Breathe in slowly through the NOSE whilst counting to 4, until your chest/lungs fill with air. Hold your breath for 4 seconds. Then breathe out slowly through the MOUTH for 8 seconds. That last bit is the important bit. You want to repeat this breathing action for 15-30 mins. It activates the parasympathetic nervous system (rest and digest). When you finish, return to your normal breathing for a few minutes before standing up, otherwise you will be lightheaded.

 

Do this 1-3 times a day, every day. It takes practice but you’ll become better and more efficient at it, until it’s second nature. It’s a great tool to tap into when things get out of control.

 

Best of wishes Dave. Look after yourself.

[Faure]

On 12/2/2022 at 1:05 PM, UkDave said:

then forward that sick through email to my employer without any further interaction which is making me even more detached given me the feeling like everything is my fault because these people have no empathy for my situation I feel so alone and closed off from the world.

Hi Dave, I so sorry the system is making you feel so alone. You have tried very hard to get off this medication and been very determined. You will get there and start living again, even though it doesn’t feel like it right now. I remember when I was destabilised from a taper that went wrong and I felt I’d never get better. I reminded myself that I’d got better every other time (I’ve had a lot of mental health   / AD WD problems over the years) and I clung onto that.  I got well enough to work again, just a few hours, and go out again, just a bit, and now I’m at almost 20% of the original dose I am feeling so much more like myself. The good times will return, it’s just it will take as long as your body needs. 
 

Quote

My CNS is out of control I can feel EVERYTHING and sounds are literally cutting through me like a knife ...

I know! This is just awful. I remember being woken up one night by my mum who was staying with me, turning on a light switch! And being so sensitive to noise that everyone had to be really quiet and I’d get so upset at loud noises, and the people that made them. I know, it’s just horrible. ☹️
 

Do you know that vigorous exercise can bring on waves? It’s best to do just gentle walking / swimming, nothing strenuous that will stress your CNS, even when you're feeling better. 
 

Living with parents is very tricky. I feel for you about that. Especially as you are trying not to bother them with how you’re feeling. 
 

Hold as long as you need, and then a bit longer and then you really will need to stick to no more than 10% a month. No going faster, even if you don’t get WD symptoms. You don’t want this to happen again. You might find you need to switch to a micro taper - the BrassMonkey slide when you’re ready to start again. 
 

Keep us posted as to how you are and hang on in there

 

[Faure]

How you doing? 

[UkDave]

Hi @Faure, thanks for reaching out. 
 

I’m doing ok, I’ve been much better this week. I was in a dark place the previous few weeks which reflected in my posts, I had a few things resolved with work and I reached out to a mental health charity called BEN that is supported by the motor trade which I’m a part of so I’m now in the process of getting some therapy, I believe it’ll be over zoom as opposed to in person but it’ll be good to talk to someone and may learn some new techniques to improve my well being. 
 

The hypoacusis is settling down which was driving me crazy, I have been doing more meditation & visualisation techniques which is helping massively. 
 

I’m slowing getting there, still on 11mg which I will be for the foreseeable future. 
 

thanks again for looking out for me I appreciate it 😊

[Faure]

Hello, glad to hear you’re settling down and the hyper sensitivity (I had to Google that word!!!j is also reducing. What good news you can get some therapy sooner than you were expecting. Don’t worry that it’s on Zoom, I have found Zoom to be about 98% as good as in person and that’s for teaching piano lessons, therapy is just talking and will be a whole lot easier than learning / teaching piano online 😂

 

Stay on 11mg as long as you need to start feeling much better, and then a bit more as well. And don’t rush the taper when you start again. Slow and steady wins this race. I hope you manage to enjoy Christmas a bit. I am just getting over an awful cold which knocked me right off my feet, I’m thinking I’ll be just about able to cook and enjoy eating a yummy roast lunch by tomorrow! 

[UkDave]

11 hours ago, Faure said:

Hello, glad to hear you’re settling down and the hyper sensitivity (I had to Google that word!!!j is also reducing.

Hi @Faure, it’s mad how life works I never looked into any of my symptoms before I just used to go and ask the doctor who then would resort to their Holy Bible that is the DM5 🚨

 

I like to think I take a pragmatic approach now and the support & reassurance of yourself and this site doesn’t half calm the old nerves 🙏🏼

 

11 hours ago, Faure said:

Stay on 11mg as long as you need to start feeling much better, and then a bit more as well. And don’t rush the taper when you start again. Slow and steady wins this race.

It certainly was something I had made a big deal out of because I could not ever stop the medication, like you pointed out in a previous post! I have cut my tablet by a massive percentage and now have a lot of my emotions back! So if it takes me how many years to get off so be it!

 

I have found some comfort thinking this also maybe the hardest part 🤷🏼‍♂️ I’ll obviously not know till the future, but I’m certainly not reducing as fast when I decide to start my taper again. 
 

11 hours ago, Faure said:

I hope you manage to enjoy Christmas a bit. I am just getting over an awful cold which knocked me right off my feet, I’m thinking I’ll be just about able to cook and enjoy eating a yummy roast lunch by tomorrow! 

I am currently suffering Man Flu 🤧 glad you never got this strain it’s a killer 😆

 

have a lovely Christmas and thanks for your ongoing support it means a lot! 
 

All the best 😊

[UkDave]

Hi all, I'm currently experiencing a mini crash, a very bad wave.

 

Which is my own fault by getting too cocky, I have just been reading back threw the comments on this post to get a general view of my state of mind at Christmas which was the last time I posted. I was experiencing high anxiety, feeling very trapped.

 

I did a hold over that period of 11m for 3/4 months then decided to start my taper again in February, the reason being I felt I had turned a corner.

 

I learned of an app for for breathing called breathwrk << its not to dissimilar to the calm app content with tutors <I have paid the subscription> It has literally changed my life, I can identify my breathing now and can see how my body is reacting in different scenarios to instantly calm myself down even when I have too much tension in my muscles to an extent.

 

Alongside ramping up the cold water therapy, Having an Ice bath a few times a week <8-12 degrees> then having a cold shower as soon as I get up on alternative days, again life changing. Its getting more and more popular and every video or podcast I have seen relating to it only projects massive positives.

 

I had 8 therapy sessions through zoom in January through to the begging of March < funky to start off with as I've never done a zoom before but as the weeks went by I got used to it and looked forward to talking to the therapist she was brilliant and definitely learned some great coping strategies from the experience.

 

Back at the Gym, Diet on point, Learning to play the Piano, Learning to speak Spanish <Been on the Duolingo app since new years it is brilliant> I have changed my job at work to suit me working in the warehouse instead of driving which i'm due to go back to work and off the sick at the start of April.

 

So bearing all this in mind I started to think the tablets weren't the issue, it was me and some of the issues I had been harbouring for years. So I reduced my tablets every 2 weeks from 35mg roughly 11m to 24mg roughly 7.7m.

 

I feel like I have literally stopped the tablets, this is dangerous man. Anxiety off the charts like when I crashed off stopping a full dose, Akathisia is full flow, talking 500mh and I can't stand still, I don't want to go out the house, my mind is racing too much to do anything cognitive so i'm trapped in my own head, I am constantly fearing the worst, Tinnitus, Vertigo.

 

I have reinstated to 29mg roughly 9.4m on Wednesday gone.

 

I'm hoping that this will level me out, I have been really tired sleeping a lot the past few days << another side effect ?

 

I thought with calming my CNS through Cold water therapy, learning how to control my breathing would make the transition easy, thats is why I was confident with lowing the dose.

 

How wrong I was. 

[Faure]

Hi @UkDave, sorry to hear you’re having major trouble after feeling good and making so much progress.  When you say “9.4m” and 7.7m? Do you mean mg? Please be very clear when talking about your doses and use the correct terms. It would be a good idea to update your signature when you feel up to it. 
 

Are you saying that up until February 2023 you were on 11mg and now you have gone back up to 29mg? I think SA usually recommends reinstating the dose you last felt ok on in cases like this. Going up this much will be a huge shock to your body and is very likely to cause you immense problems. Please clarify exactly what doses you have been taking with dates. I have reported this post so that a mod can weigh in with advice. 
 

The fatigue you are experiencing may well be your body’s reaction to this large dose increase (if that is what happened). I know from my own experience that large increases following a crash are not a good idea. After my own crash from about 6mg I reinstated to the original 15mg and was tired for 3 years, I never got over it. I only started recovering energy levels once I started my taper and I’m still not back to how I was pre mirtazepine.  
 

Unfortunately it sounds like you forgot about tapering properly. Regardless of how you feel, how well you are doing with addressing past issues etc. the fact is that your body is dependent on sertraline. I know how frustrating it is to be on these drugs and want to be off them and not be able to get off as quickly as we’d like. I feel the same way about it. Unfortunately the only safe ways are the 10% every 4 weeks method, or the BrassMonkey slide which you may recall I’m doing. 
 

I hope you are able to stabilise soon and once you have been stable for around 2-4 weeks you might like to try a small reduction, perhaps just 5% to see how your body handles it initially. It would probably be sensible for you to check in on here before and during tapering so that members can support you in making decisions that are likely to help you stay well. Let’s hope this is a blip that passes soon ☺️
 

Hopefully a mod will be by later to advise. 

[UkDave]

28 minutes ago, Faure said:

Hi, sorry to hear you’re having major trouble after feeling good and making so much progress.  When you say “9.4m” and 7.7m? Do you mean mg? Please be very clear when talking about your doses and use the correct terms. It would be a good idea to update your signature when you feel up to it. 

 

Thank you for taking the time to respond Faure I really appreciate it.

 

Yeah sorry for the confusion. I was taking 11mg up until February, then over 6 weeks I reduced my dose to roughly 7.7mg. Then on Wednesday I went back to roughly 9.2mg.I use the term "roughly" because as you will have experienced cutting the tablet is like a game of roulette and they are there or there bouts.

 

I am using scales to weigh out the tablet and I have used that that number for the 29mg << it must be micro grams ?

 

The whole 50mg sertraline tablet weighs 155mg << again confusing with the mg

 

28 minutes ago, Faure said:

I hope you are able to stabilise soon and once you have been stable for around 2-4 weeks you might like to try a small reduction, perhaps just 5% to see how your body handles it initially. It would probably be sensible for you to check in on here before and during tapering so that members can support you in making decisions that are likely to help you stay well. Let’s hope this is a blip that passes soon ☺️

 

I've said it before then went against my word but this time I mean it, I am going to stop on this dose now for the foreseeable future until I feel some sort of settlement, I want this tablet out of my body but like you say my body is dependant on them.

 

I can't stand still, my mind and body are racing.  I forgot what this felt like its horrible but I know it will pass.

 

Thanks again for taking the time to respond, its means a lot 😊

[Faure]

1 hour ago, UkDave said:

Yeah sorry for the confusion. I was taking 11mg up until February, then over 6 weeks I reduced my dose to roughly 7.7mg. Then on Wednesday I went back to roughly 9.2mg.I use the term "roughly" because as you will have experienced cutting the tablet is like a game of roulette and they are there or there bouts.

 

I am using scales to weigh out the tablet and I have used that that number for the 29mg << it must be micro grams ?

 

The whole 50mg sertraline tablet weighs 155mg << again confusing with the mg

Ok, thank you for clarifying. Please always refer to the mg dose of the active ingredient in the pill rather than the actual pill weight to avoid confusion. 
 

I am very relieved to hear that you are in fact on 9.2mg and haven’t done a huge updose. Let us hope your body settles down soon. 
 

It would be best for you to grind the pill up to get powder so you can get an exact dose. It is very important to always take exactly the same dose at the same time every day. You can buy pill grinder on Amazon and they don’t have to be expensive although I treated myself to a nice one as I knew I’d be doing this for years! 
 

As you get to the lower doses you will need to start making your own liquid because the scales become less accurate at the very low doses. We can help with that, again come here for advice!  I started making my own liquid at 3.3mg. 
 

These horrible feeling will pass, you’ve had them before, they passed before. Take it easy, don’t do anything to stress your CNS like vigorous exercise and it will pass. 
 

*Please* don’t make any changes without coming here for advice. You will get off faster if you take the slow route and we can support you in that. 

[UkDave]

1 hour ago, Faure said:

It would be best for you to grind the pill up to get powder so you can get an exact dose. It is very important to always take exactly the same dose at the same time every day. You can buy pill grinder on Amazon and they don’t have to be expensive although I treated myself to a nice one as I knew I’d be doing this for years! 

 

How are you takin the ground down pill ? are you buying empty capsules ?

 

1 hour ago, Faure said:

These horrible feeling will pass, you’ve had them before, they passed before. Take it easy, don’t do anything to stress your CNS like vigorous exercise and it will pass. 

 

I keep telling myself, Beeeeeeeeen here before, i've only dropped a little dose not off the cliff stoppage. Hopefully it won't take long to get back on track.

 

I started back at the Gym a week gone Thursday after a few weeks off.  I knew straight away my CNS was in chaos, I wasn't recovering like I normally do and every exercise seemed double the effort.

 

I am catch 22 with the Gym, it is where I go to chill out as mad as that may sound. I will have a few weeks off till my body comes back to some form of equilibrium, I'll exercise by going for walks instead.

 

1 hour ago, Faure said:

*Please* don’t make any changes without coming here for advice. You will get off faster if you take the slow route and we can support you in that. 

 

Thank you, you always give amazing support, I really appreciate it.

 

Calms me down 😊

[Faure]

Quote

How are you takin the ground down pill ? are you buying empty capsules ?

Yes, I was using empty capsules from June 2021 to a few weeks ago when I started making my own liquid. The bag lasts ages and is still not gone.  Now I use one capsule every couple of weeks to store unused powder ready for next time. If you buy capsules, size 0 are good because they are quite big and easy to get the powder in. After I’ve weighed the powder I tip it into a small piece of folded paper & then tip it carefully into the capsule. I used to make up 7 days at a time and it took about 15 minutes ☺️ I have full instructions, let me know if you want them!
 

I think you made a 30% drop over 6 weeks. That is double the recommended rate so take as much time as you need to stabilise. Over 6 weeks you should’ve dropped no more than 15%.

 

I hear you saying you’ll wait to stabilise but I’d also really like to hear you say that in future you won’t go faster than 10% every 4 weeks - this is the part you need to fully grasp in order to avoid nasty WD going forward. You may find need to go slower than 10% after this upset….going slowly is the fastest way 🐌🐌🐌

 

Glad you’re feeling a bit calmer ☺️ It’s a nice day down south, but I’m having a rest day so am not planning to go out although the sun is starting to tempt me! 

[UkDave]

41 minutes ago, Faure said:

I have full instructions, let me know if you want them!

Yes please, I would really appreciate that thanks.

 

What scale have you been using ? Milligram scale I am using this type of scale. 

 

I cut up my tablets, its difficult to get it close then bits drop off all the time also 🙆🏼‍♂️ I like the idea of crushing the tablet to make new 1s. I would just make 14/28 days worth at a time.

 

41 minutes ago, Faure said:

I think you made a 30% drop over 6 weeks. That is double the recommended rate so take as much time as you need to stabilise. Over 6 weeks you should’ve dropped no more than 15%.

 

I hear you saying you’ll wait to stabilise but I’d also really like to hear you say that in future you won’t go faster than 10% every 4 weeks - this is the part you need to fully grasp in order to avoid nasty WD going forward. You may find need to go slower than 10% after this upset….going slowly is the fastest way 🐌🐌🐌

 

This is quite sobering seeing it in a percentage like that 😐

 

My plan now is to have a rest on a the dose I am on now, 3-6 months maybes and let my body heal.  I was thinking about it this morning, I have been going up and down on tablets for years now, certainly the past 7/8 years changing my dosage even before I knew about tapering and crashing twice.

 

I have been on a taper now for 18 months after reinstating because of a crash with my CNS constantly in flux.  The taper might even be easier if I come at it from a better state of equilibrium. The side effects now are not numbness either, I get emotional and have my libido back. Yes I'd love to be rid of them out of my system but staying on a tablet and slowly reducing isn't a big deal now << Now that you have made me see sense 😅

 

41 minutes ago, Faure said:

Glad you’re feeling a bit calmer ☺️ It’s a nice day down south, but I’m having a rest day so am not planning to go out although the sun is starting to tempt me! 

 

I am thank you 😁 

 

Get yourself out in the fresh air, its a great release 🙏🏼

[Faure]

Good morning ☺️ This is the scale I use.  It’s about £40 and is the one recommended on here. I had a look at yours. You want to be sure it’s consistent in the weight it gives. You might like to test it over and over with the calibration weight.  Maybe calibrate the scale first then weigh the weight several times to check it gives the same reading each time. Repeat with something else like a whole pill.  If it’s consistent great, if not be a bit concerned.

 

Making up pill instructions 

 

I make up 7 tablets at a time, so when you start you’ll need to pulverise all 7 and then weigh out 7 identical amounts. Much better this way as it’s all done in about 15 mins (when you get the hang of it) just once a week, rather than daily. I also like to believe doing it all in one go gives the best chance of getting identical weights with the calibration etc. These days I use just over 2 pills a week, so I usually pulverise 3.  Here is how I do it: 

 

Step 1, only necessary the very first time: weigh three whole pills and divide the total weight by 3 to get the average weight per pill. Put this into a tapering spreadsheet to get the reduction schedule. Print reduction schedule and if you’re at all bad with numbers change the decimal points so the schedule looks the same as the scale readout.  I think you already know the pill weighs more than the dose of meds you are taking because of filler. 

 

Step 2 calibrate the scales

 

Step 3 grind 7 pills, I put the powder into an egg cup and stir it with a toothpick, including the outer layer of the pills (my outer layer is yellow and the powder is white). 
 

Step 4, open a capsule. Using a teaspoon scoop up some powder and using a toothpick knock it into the measuring tray till you get the right weight. I take off excess powder with the tweezers that come with the scale. 
 

Step 5 tip the powder into a folded small piece of paper and use this to transfer the powder into the capsule. Don’t worry about microscopic bits not making it into the capsule. 
 

Step 6 repeat till 7 pills are complete and store spare powder in a separate capsule for next time.  I then use this powder first in my next session. Be sure to keep pills in the dark. 

 
I don’t recommend making up more than 7 at a time.  It takes a lot of concentration and I personally find I can concentrate for 7 pills but then I start to get sloppy and not so careful. It is obviously vital the pills are all as accurately weighed as possible. 

 

 

[Faure]

17 hours ago, UkDave said:

 

I have been on a taper now for 18 months after reinstating because of a crash with my CNS constantly in flux.  The taper might even be easier if I come at it from a better state of equilibrium. The side effects now are not numbness either, I get emotional and have my libido back. Yes I'd love to be rid of them out of my system but staying on a tablet and slowly reducing isn't a big deal now << Now that you have made me see sense 😅

 

The taper will work best when you do no more than 10% every 4 weeks and I suspect after all the damage to your CNS from failed tapers and messing about with doses you will need to go slower. I think the BrassMonkey slide will be best for you when the time comes.  Every time you have a crash you set things back by months, unfortunately.  This can all be avoided by doing it sensibly, which it sounds like you are thinking of doing now. Good! 👍

 

I’m now on 20% of my original dose and things just get better and better. It is annoying, frustrating and all the rest of it doing this taper but I do it so that I can get myself back, live life fully and feel good. This is what I have to do to get there, so I do it. And it’s working.  It will work for you as well.
 

I’m off out for the day.  Let us know how you’re getting on / feeling. 

[UkDave]

Hi @Faure, I am putting my ego to 1 side now, I wanted to be off the medication from almost the day I started taking them after feeling the adverse side effects almost immediately all them years ago.

 

With the knowledge I have gained from this forum I got a glimpse of the light at the end of the tunnel and then started running towards it a bit to fast << I know now that was a mistake. 

 

"You Win or You Learn" << And in this case try not to go past the point of no return, which I believe I have managed to avoid.

 

On 3/26/2023 at 8:32 AM, Faure said:

Every time you have a crash you set things back by months, unfortunately.  This can all be avoided by doing it sensibly, which it sounds like you are thinking of doing now. Good! 👍

 

It will take a few weeks of settling down then I will just forgot about any taper in my mind and take the tablets on a daily basis till I have a been stable for a couple of months before I even start to think about reducing again.

 

I have been in a difficult place the past few days, I had a massive wave of suicidal ideology for about 2 hours on Saturday evening which was horrific and I'm not thinking straight cognitively with very little energy.

 

Your support made me realise, I have been here before <multiple times> and got past it, Ssssoooooooooo this time should be no different if it has been very difficult for a period 👊🏼

 

Your kind support and guidance has meant a lot, You're very good at this 😊

[Faure]

3 hours ago, UkDave said:

I have been in a difficult place the past few days, I had a massive wave of suicidal ideology for about 2 hours on Saturday evening which was horrific and I'm not thinking straight cognitively with very little energy.

I’m really sorry to hear you felt so dreadful on Saturday. I know it is truly horrendous to feel this way. You got through it - well done. You will get through this, you just need some time to settle down. I remember one night I got through it literally one breathe at a time. If that’s what it takes, you can do it. 
 

I remember when I was prescribed these pills I saw a poster that made me laugh despite how truly awful I’d felt for weeks :

 

“So far you have survived all of your worst days”

 

And it’s true. You’ve survived them before. You will survive them again. I really hope you get some relief soon.  If your body needs rest, then rest. Don’t try to push yourself, it’s very busy trying to sort things out for you.  
 

So hang on in there and when you’re ready I’ll help you start and hopefully stick to a taper that will work for you. I promise it’s worth it; it’s so much better than the merry go round you’re on at the moment. And if you do it slowly & steadily you are very unlikely to end up feeling like this again. 
 

Take care, one breathe at a time and stay in touch ☺️

[UkDave]

On 3/26/2023 at 8:26 AM, Faure said:

This is the scale I use.  It’s about £40 and is the one recommended on here. I had a look at yours. You want to be sure it’s consistent in the weight it gives. You might like to test it over and over with the calibration weight.  Maybe calibrate the scale first then weigh the weight several times to check it gives the same reading each time. Repeat with something else like a whole pill.  If it’s consistent great, if not be a bit concerned.

 

Hi, Sorry to bother you again.

 

I've received my pill crusher and empty capsules, the scales you recommend are not coming till next week. I had some optimism thinking about taking the same dose, near as dam it everyday for the foreseeable future to level myself out.

 

I know I have gone to fast lately but now I know I also have a problem with consistency of the dose I've been taking, my scales change EVERYTIME I take something off and then back on 🤬 

 

I have known this for a while obviously but didn't realise the extent of the problem till today.  When I would cut up my tablets I constantly zeroed the scales, using a razor to cut the tablet I believe I was getting very close to the dose I wanted to take.

 

Now today I crushed up some tablets weighed out 29 micrograms roughly 9.4mg I couldn't get anywhere near with the fluctuation of the scales, never the same TWICE ...

 

I thought if I zeroed the empty capsule then filled it with the crushed tablet,  I would fill that capsule to 29 micrograms <9.4mg> then, Hey presto ... But nooo, 

 

The scales registered different every time, minus <Because I zeroed the capsule> 96,98,106,99,105,94 and on << No good at all when trying to be precise at the smaller dose.

 

I have ended up with 6 tablets all between 31 and 35 micrograms << I was there for an hour. So frustrating, its soul destroying knowing I want to take an exact <As close as I can be exact> dose to help regulate my system and i've got no chance.

 

The new scales come next week.

[Embi]

Hey, I work in science and there are a few things you can do to help your scales to read more consistently. Try not to move too suddenly around the scales, as air from moving about causes pressure that increases the weight reading. Sometimes when weighing low weights I stand really still and hold my breath. Not sure how much it helps in practice. Make sure there’s little air flow, no open windows or drafts or vents/fans. Finally, make sure your scales are on a level, even surface (use a spirit level if you have to). Ultimately though, there’s always going to be some variation when weighing at low weights and you have to just get as close as possible. 
 

I’m also tapering sertraline and I find it easier to make a solution out of my tablet. Moving over to liquid takes a bit of time, but I have found it so much easier. 

[UkDave]

Hi @Embi thank you for the support!

 

I’ve never had much confidence in the scales I have been using, I actually bought different 1s about 4 months ago but they didn’t have micrograms so had to persist with this 1.  I understand that we are dealing with dust essentially but the variation in weigh is mad! It’s like the the pad is on springs and they get altered every time they move! 

 

It a good shout regarding the wind movement! Even off my hands around the scales they seem very sensitive. 
 

After the experience I’ve had the past few weeks I just a want the piece of mind that I’m taking a similar dose every day.  
 

Thanks again for taking the time to respond 👍🏼

[Faure]

Hi, a couple (turned into a few!) of important points about weighing:

• leave the scales in the room you are going to use them in for 30 minutes beforehand so they are at the temperature of the room (important according to a “sciencey” friend of mine 
• ALWAYS calibrate the scales before you start each session (there are instructions with the scale for how to do this). If you haven’t been calibrating this may be why you are getting inconsistent readings. Although reviews of the scale you’ve got are not positive about accuracy. 
• BEFORE calibrating them, leave them on for a minute for all the parts to warm up. You may need to keep them awake by tapping the weighing thing. They turn off fairly soon after not being used. 
• use the weighing pan that comes with the scale to do your weighing.
• when I’m doing my doses, when I get near the target dose I pick up the pan and gently tap it with a teaspoon to get the powder into the centre.  I add / remove / repeat a few times.
• once you get the scale to the exact figure (after the tapping) do one more tap to be sure but then accept it. Don’t re-weigh and re-weigh. This is the route to madness! If you take all the powder off then put it back on to check you will lose powder on the way and the reading will change, so don’t bother!

let us know how you get on.
 

How are you feeling?

[Embi]

8 hours ago, UkDave said:

Hi @Embi thank you for the support!

 

I’ve never had much confidence in the scales I have been using, I actually bought different 1s about 4 months ago but they didn’t have micrograms so had to persist with this 1.  I understand that we are dealing with dust essentially but the variation in weigh is mad! It’s like the the pad is on springs and they get altered every time they move! 

 

It a good shout regarding the wind movement! Even off my hands around the scales they seem very sensitive. 
 

After the experience I’ve had the past few weeks I just a want the piece of mind that I’m taking a similar dose every day.  
 

Thanks again for taking the time to respond 👍🏼

I get it, I just changed the way I was doing my dilutions because I felt the same way. I hope the new scales help and that you can stabilise easier.

[UkDave]

1 hour ago, Faure said:

once you get the scale to the exact figure (after the tapping) do one more tap to be sure but then accept it. Don’t re-weigh and re-weigh. This is the route to madness! If you take all the powder off then put it back on to check you will lose powder on the way and the reading will change, so don’t bother!

THIS!!! Is the exact rabbit hole I went down yesterday afternoon, I was slowly going insane!

 

constantly second questing myself, then getting anxious in case my dose was far too low or far too high 🤯

 

1 hour ago, Embi said:

I get it, I just changed the way I was doing my dilutions because I felt the same way. I hope the new scales help and that you can stabilise easier.

The new scales will certainly make help me feel more confident in taking the tablet on the taper now. 
 

1 hour ago, Faure said:

How are you feeling?

I’ve been a lot better this week! No where near 💯 

 

I’ve started to feel less head fog/mind racing which is enabling me to listen to podcasts/books 

 

helping me relax and also feel productive! 
 

plus a few walks round the local park, which always helps me unwind as well as getting out the house. 
 

Thanks for the support guys it means a lot! 😀