Tips to help sleep: so many of us have that awful withdrawal insomnia

[dalsaan]

Success already Rhi! I have long thought I've had something like this. I think I drift in and out of sleep but don't register a difference. Last night I read your post and researched some stuff on sleep misperception.

 

I tried your trick of saying relax, you are actually sleeping during the night. And I did, and I know it because I had a dream and could remember it when I woke up!

 

They theorize that it may be the overproduction of a certain neurotransmitter, one that is a low levels in people that have narcolepsy.

 

Thanks for this

 

Dalsaan

 

This is the first time this has happened in ages

[alexjuice]

on another note...as far as a supplement like magnesium for sleep that Karma and Georgia talked about...some people find it helpful (in whatever form) and some don't or in fact find it activating and problematic...this is how we're different and why it's important to remember just because something works for us it may not work for another and in fact it may make another far worse...

 

This is such a helpful reminder. While it would be much simpler if we reacted identically to every substance, we don't and this diversity in response is more reason for cautious, self-managed programs of care.

 

I catch myself giving well-meaning suggestions to others that may not work for them even though they have worked for me. Though for the most part, I try to avoid making recommendations for things. I wish things were not so complex so that I can understand tehm.

[alexjuice]

Back on the sleep part of this thread: One thing that has helped me has been learning about something called something like "sleep unawareness." Or something like that.

 

It's actually really common, and it's where you think you're awake even though you're actually cycling in and out of sleep. But your brain just pieces together the parts of the cycle where you're awake and you experience them as continuous. It's a neurological thing that's going on so you actually experience yourself as continuously awake, even though if you were hooked up to an EEG it would show that you're cycling through sleep stages.

 

I've discovered that when I'm in that state, if I think "I'm not sleeping, I'm not sleeping, I've got to sleep, I have to go to work tonight" and focus on that, I actually wake myself up more. I'm kind of learning to relax and say "maybe I'm actually sleeping more than I think I am..." and for me, when I relax into it, and allow the moments of wakefulness to just "be" and not see them as "oh no I'm awake again"--it seems to help me actually drift into a more solid sleep.

 

Just a little piece of something that's been helpful to me. To realize that maybe I'm actually sleeping more than I realize, which helps me to relax and sleep even more.

 

This is very helpful.

[dalsaan]

I'm wondering, does any one else who struggles with sleep feel hot at night? I don't have night sweats but I certainly feel like my temperature is poorly regulated. Is this common?

[GiaK]

my body temp has been whacked the entire time I've been dealing with this stuff, yes

[Narcissus]

"Sometimes I think, and I don't know why, that the meaning of it all is to sleep."

 

- Fernando Pessoa

[strawberry17]

I couldn't decide if this was worthy of a seperate thread, but in the end decided to hook it to this one, does anyone else suffer from "the fear of not being able to sleep" as a result of being hit by withdrawal insomnia over the years? this is bordering on a phobic type reaction for me, I worry a lot that I won't be able to sleep if I've got something big going on the next day, and it becomes a self fulfilling prophesy, I think I'm not going to sleeep, worry about it, and then of course I don't sleep, and then the day/event is ruined by exhaustion. I sometimes long to go back to that childhood bliss of never ever thinking about sleep, it just happens and you take it for granted.

[Meimeiquest]

Ok thank you. the syringe said 12 ml was the entire suringe so I cut that in half. I'll be very careful tonight when I take my dose. Thank you. Ugh! I was nervous.

 

Yes! I work part-time and most can't sleep the nights before I work

[Meimeiquest]

Heard in passing on radio: A study by the American Sleep Association (or similar) found that only 13% of people who were sedentary 8-9 hrs./day were able to sleep well if they didn't exercise. The helpful exercise did not have to be vigorous.

 

Sweet dreams, Meimeiquest

[Altostrata]

I'm afraid I've come to think of my melatonin as a magic token for this reason. Once I take it, I have faith again.

[dalsaan]

I used to have this. Then I decided to change the script rumming through my mind. Rather than projecting how I would feel in the morning and worrying about how I would cope, I started to say. Youve felt tired before and have managed to get through the day

 

This increases my chances of getting some sleep but also I feel better if I can relax even if not sleeping. If I stress and fight it all night I am shattered in the morning

[peggy]

dalsaan, this is a great technique and works for me maybe 75% of the time - when i am feeling a bit depressed as well though I am not so successful with that

[strawberry17]

So glad I'm not alone. I've tried changing the script as well, doesn't often work though.

[alex]

If as you say Alto, w/d insomnia has nothing to do with the circadian cicle, how is Melatonin helpful?

[tezza]

This link explains how melatonin can be helpful:

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/189-melatonin-for-sleep/

 

Alex, does the phosphatidylserine seem to be helping you?

[alex]

This link explains how melatonin can be helpful:

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/189-melatonin-for-sleep/

 

Alex, does the phosphatidylserine seem to be helping you?

 

 

Yes, PS seems to help;I don´t get those too warm feelings so much.

 

Small doses though,100mg the most.

[peggy]

the biggest tip for me to reduce sleep anxiety (or non sleep anxiety) is not to have a clock in the bedroom. I used to put a cover over the one we had so i couldn't see it during the night. Now i just have my iphone next to my bed. If i am not anxious or in withdrawal, waking at night is not a problem for me, it doesn't even bother me if i can't get to sleep or don't get much sleep, but when i am anxious and depressed the sleep can become my focus - so bizarre. I refuse to look at my phone to check the time and because i haven't for so long its no longer something that i am tempted to do.

 

The other trick that sometimes works is that i lie really still and count my breaths in and out. That only works sometimes - when i was about 13 i was on a sleep over at a friends house and she said sometimes she couldn't get to sleep and that's what she did - she used to see others asleep and they were still and breathing slowly and regularly and so she thought if she copied that it would work - pretty clever for a 13 year old don't you think?

 

One of my good friends told me than when she was a child and couldn't sleep her mother used to say - well when that happens, you just put your pillow on the other end of the bed and 'snap' like magic you will be asleep. She did that and it worked ( amazing how suggestive we are as children) - now if she can't sleep she does the same - she picks up her pillow and puts it at the end of the bed and her husband wakes up in the morning with her feet in his face! When i couldn't sleep i would go out into the lounge room and my mother would scold me and say 'hurry up and go to sleep or you won't be able to do (whatever was happening) tomorrow. Is it any wonder we develop these problems when we are told those things to our little, suggestive, trusting minds?

[basildev]

Hey Peggy,

 

when you're counting your breaths you're meditating! (Which is really hard to do properly). This morning I woke at 4AM and, unable to get back to sleep, got up and went into the living room to meditate. I did that for 15 minutes. Just watching my breath and when my mind wandered, bringing my attention back to the breath.

 

I've read somewhere that 20 minutes of meditation is a good as 8 hours sleep! Not sure if I believe it.

 

What do others think?

[GiaK]

no...20 minutes of meditation is not as good as 8 hours of sleep...and when you're sleep deprived it's not as good as 20 minutes of sleep. We need sleep.

 

for some of us meditation can be excruciating at certain junctures and not even a good idea some of the time. This may not have happened to you, but when the autonomic system is really screaming meditation is next to impossible.

 

I started with seconds at a time...now I do hours at a time...sometimes when I can't sleep I meditate for several hours...and it's still not as good as sleep

 

 

we need sleep.

[Baxter]

Twenty minutes of meditation is good. It does not replace sleep. Sleep is good. Sleeplessness is one of the worst parts of poopout and withdrawal. Destruction of sleep is the major crime of SSRI/SNRI.

[tezza]

 

This link explains how melatonin can be helpful:

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/189-melatonin-for-sleep/

 

Alex, does the phosphatidylserine seem to be helping you?

 

 

Yes, PS seems to help;I don´t get those too warm feelings so much.

 

Small doses though,100mg the most.

 

 

Good, Alex, I'm glad it's helping. I take only 100mg per night also. I also keep my bedroom very cool. I don't allow any heat of any kind to get in the room. This has helped me as well.

 

 

Peggy, I also try to not look at the clock when I do wake up during the night. For some reason, if its around 4:00 and I see the time, it causes me anxiety which makes it harder for me to go back

to sleep.

 

I'm sure that stems from those 4:00 awakenings I had in severe WD.

[peggy]

 

I've read somewhere that 20 minutes of meditation is a good as 8 hours sleep! Not sure if I believe it.

 

What do others think?

 

 

I have read that too, no, i don't believe it but when i first heard it it helped to reduce my anxiety about sleep - but it didn't stop me feeling tired!

 

Having said that, meditation helps to put a blanket over our anxiety and also helps us to get to know our own minds - it helps me to recognise and nip my ruminations in the bud.

[basildev]

Yeah I don't believe it either.

 

It's hard to meditate at the best of times much less when you're in WD.

 

Give me sleep any day:)

[strawberry17]

Peggy I totally agree with the clock business, if I'm having a bad night, I make a rule to never ever look at the time, because it stokes up the fire of anxiety even more and I have that thought "only x hours left til I have to get up and go to work...", best not to know. Acceptance does sometimes help, accepting that ok this has happened before and I think I'm not going to cope with the exhaustion, but in fact I always do, even though it sucks.

 

The other thing I have done sometimes, if I know on x day I have a really important event or big day out, I deliberately keep myself up most of the night before, the night before if you see what I mean, so that the night before the big event I'm so exhausted I sleep like a log. This has worked, slightly risky strategy though.

 

I have also tried Alto's strategy of seeing my magnesium tablet as like the magic pill that's going to do it. Hasn't really worked for me though.

[compsports]

Well, my experience with ambien lasted one night.

 

I took 10mg to get back to sleep with gave me an additional 1 hour and 40 minutes. Then I developed the wonderful side effect of suicidal depression. Fortunately, I realized this was a side effect so I knew it would pass and it did that morning.

 

Anyway, even though I fall asleep within a few minutes due to being so sleep deprived, I think I am going to try taking something before going to bed to see if that can at least give me longer initial sleep on the apap machine. Last night, I woke up after 2.5 hours, took a mag/cal and a small amount of glycine that I think got me back to sleep for about an hour.

 

Needless to say, I am pretty desperate.

 

CS

[Narcissus]

Ambien is nuts, don't mess with that stuff if you can help it.

[tezza]

Compsports,

 

I really feel for you. so many of us understand what lack of sleep is like, myself included. It seems like we all need something magical to happen and we are all looking for anything that will help us sleep.

 

Nikki sure named this topic very well, "sleep wonderful sleep". It's something we all long for.

 

Hugs and love,

 

Tezza

[Aria]

Wanting to sleep is something I long to do. Last night was another bad one but I can lay down quietly to rest my body. If only I knew the answer but after being drug free for a number of years my sleep cycle hasn't righted itself. I've tried all the sleep techniques and OTC meds but they caused me to feel edgy. It's not fun to feel sleep deprived, foggy headed and indescribably tired. Trying to explain to others why I'm not sleeping goes no where but at least here it's understood.

[basildev]

Hey everyone,

 

I found this article comforting:

 

http://www.sciencealert.com.au/opinions/20122708-23690.html

[compsports]

Thanks Tezza,

 

Actually, I did better simply waiting to go back to sleep without taking anything. Didn't get much additional sleep after an initial 4 hours off of the machine but I think at least the quality was better although certainly not that great.

 

But at least by taking some supplements, I had decent functioning in the morning before fading.

 

I hope things improve for you.

 

Compsports,

 

I really feel for you. so many of us understand what lack of sleep is like, myself included. It seems like we all need something magical to happen and we are all looking for anything that will help us sleep.

 

Nikki sure named this topic very well, "sleep wonderful sleep". It's something we all long for.

 

Hugs and love,

 

Tezza

 

[compsports]

Wanting to sleep is something I long to do. Last night was another bad one but I can lay down quietly to rest my body. If only I knew the answer but after being drug free for a number of years my sleep cycle hasn't righted itself. I've tried all the sleep techniques and OTC meds but they caused me to feel edgy. It's not fun to feel sleep deprived, foggy headed and indescribably tired. Trying to explain to others why I'm not sleeping goes no where but at least here it's understood.

 

Gosh Aria, I have been dealing with sleep issues at least since 2008 and it sounds like yours have lasted alot longer than that. I don't know you keep your sanity.

 

I am convinced by the way that most OTC meds do not work just like prescriptions meds don't. Just a gut feeling.

 

CS

[compsports]

Ambien is nuts, don't mess with that stuff if you can help it.

 

Not going to with one exception. If I decide to have a sleep study, I will need to take something. But that is the only time I will ever take it again.

 

CS

[strawberry17]

Compsports, I too am not convinced that any sleep remedies really work, I've tried all sorts and if my brain is set on having a bad night, ain't nothing going to stop it, except the odd tamezapam but scared of going down that road. I am fortunate that I do have a lot of "good" nights though so my suffering is not so bad.

 

That article was interesting Basildev, I have to say I don't think I've ever slept a continuous 8 hours, I've always woken at some point for the loo or a think and then gone back to sleep and that's fine, it's the whole night tossing and turning, and nothing but nothing can touch it, pills, mindfulness, acceptance etc, I've tried it all, if I'm not gonna sleep I'm not gonna sleep, maybe that's the withdrawal state.

[compsports]

Totally agree Strawberry.

 

Interestingly, I slept off of the machine last night and woke up after 4 hours. Lay back down listening to a podcast and fell back asleep for nearly 3 hours. By the way, I had consumed coffee at 3pm and had little expectation of being able to sleep. Hmm.

 

Yup strawberry, the brain decides what is going to happen and in my opinion, nothing overrides that.

 

CS

 

PS - I haven't slept through the night in years.

 

Compsports, I too am not convinced that any sleep remedies really work, I've tried all sorts and if my brain is set on having a bad night, ain't nothing going to stop it, except the odd tamezapam but scared of going down that road. I am fortunate that I do have a lot of "good" nights though so my suffering is not so bad.

 

That article was interesting Basildev, I have to say I don't think I've ever slept a continuous 8 hours, I've always woken at some point for the loo or a think and then gone back to sleep and that's fine, it's the whole night tossing and turning, and nothing but nothing can touch it, pills, mindfulness, acceptance etc, I've tried it all, if I'm not gonna sleep I'm not gonna sleep, maybe that's the withdrawal state.

 

[GiaK]

hi...I've been following this thread all along and I've struggled with sleep for eons and still do, but there are LOTS of things I must do daily in combination.

 

I believe I've already shared my insomnia post here but I want to share one other post with two exercises...if you've never tried them I highly recommend them because I agree, supplements are not really the way to go and in fact continue the mind set that drugs do...if you take supplements with an allopathic mindset it's really no different than drugs in terms of healing...(this doesn't mean I don't take them when appropriate but I am aware that this is going on for me)

 

anyway...

 

check these exercises out...do them slowly, intentionally...relax deeply into them and experiment with them. I do them everyday...often several times a day and a couple of times a night.

 

I don't expect everyone to find them helpful but I also find that many people don't even try exercises of these sort.

 

http://beyondmeds.com/2013/01/31/simple-yoga/

 

I'm not explicit in this post that they are for insomnia but they are also included in my insomnia post...these two exercises have been critical to my sleep coming back...at the very least they help soothe my nervous system over the long haul for long term healing....this is something that is part of a practice for healing...not an instant cure-all, though there are times it's certainly enough to get me a bit of sleep now.

[basildev]

Strawberry, I think you're right.

 

I don't take any supplements for sleep any more. I agree - if I'm not sleeping I'm not sleeping and nothing can touch that.

 

I don't believe you can 'mind over matter' withdrawal.

 

Giak, thanks for the exercise link. I'll give it a go.