Needofwisdom: Cold turkey, escitalopram withdrawal

[Altostrata]

Would it be too difficult for you to move your escitalopram dose earlier in the day?

[Needofwisdom]

7 hours ago, Altostrata said:

If I were you, I'd use the bottled escitalopram liquid and eliminate any potential area of error in your DIY method.

 

 

Were these adverse effects from your starting up escitalopram in January 2019 and increase to 5mg August 21, 2021? Did they go away or did you have them as long as you were taking escitalopram?

 

If I were you, I'd move your escitalopram dose earlier by one hour each day until you're taking it in the morning. Please let us know of any unusual symptoms that arise in this process.

Altostrata,

I believe that the .5mg dose is too high based on how i feel before and how I feel afterward. It seems now everytime I take the .007g dose im getting extra negative effects like I will feel noticesbly worst than before taking the dose. I am now also supplementing with l tryptophan during the day with multiple doses of 100 or so mg and there is a noticeable benefit on my mood. After I take .007g i no longet get alleviation of symptoms but rather feel a negative effect. Tomorrow I will lower my dose to .006g to see how my body tolerates it and if my symptoms worsen or get better. 

[Altostrata]

By all means, do your own experiments. Not sure how much I can add here.

[Needofwisdom]

4 hours ago, Altostrata said:

By all means, do your own experiments. Not sure how much I can add here.

 

Thank you Altostrata im very thankful for your input. I really dont know what Im doing im just trying to listen to my body to see where i can be the most stable. Right now everything is an uncertainty for me and I really dont know where I should go from here. I just see how this escitalopram is making me feel after i take it 3 weeks later and it seems to make me feel less stable so Im just trying to find some acceptable doseage, it seems as time goes on either my doses are inaccurate (very likely) or my nervous system wants less of it.

[Altostrata]

Not a good idea to rely on inaccurate dose measurement.

[Needofwisdom]

47 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

Not a good idea to rely on inaccurate dose measurement.

 

Altostrata I have been relying on a small digital mg scale for my doses and i am just afraid of switching to liquid because of what I read about others not tolerating the liquid as well . At the present time i have the liquid prescription ready in the refrigerator and also have the materials for homemade liquid. Its just switching while i dont feel confident thats worrying me because I feel if something goes wrong i will be even less stable. But according to the calculations if im off by just 1 number lower .007 to .006 im going down from .514mg active ingredient to .441mg active ingredient each time im off which is insane. This is so frustrating.

[Go2zero]

As an alternative to inaccurate dosing with dry cutting of pills (or factory made liquid), you could switch to homemade liquid from the same pills you are using. I explained you earlier how you can do so. This method is much more accurate than dry cutting!

 

The chance of getting problems with liquid from own pills is probably less than changing to a factory made liquid.

 

You have all the materials as you told here. Do however make a crossover from dry to home made liquid.

[Needofwisdom]

6 hours ago, Go2zero said:

As an alternative to inaccurate dosing with dry cutting of pills (or factory made liquid), you could switch to homemade liquid from the same pills you are using. I explained you earlier how you can do so. This method is much more accurate than dry cutting!

 

The chance of getting problems with liquid from own pills is probably less than changing to a factory made liquid.

 

You have all the materials as you told here. Do however make a crossover from dry to home made liquid.

 

Go2zero thank you for your help. Right now i am so stressed out from the lack of sleep and just all the wd symptoms over the past few months accumulating. Before i reinstated i could never imagined i would have to deal with so much all at once. Its become a full time job. I am at my wits end so frustrated. I tried making my own liquid today i crushed a 10mg pill and used a 10 ml syringe full of water to mix it then i transferred it into the 10 ml amber bottle and the bottle is reading higher than 10 ml when i measured 10ml exactly in the syringe. I dont know what to trust the bottle or the syringe.  I just want to make sure im doing this right my body has taken a huge beating from the lack of sleep. I dont want to make any errors. My scale is becoming even more inaccurate and measuring it out is becoming more troublesome. 

[Go2zero]

35 minutes ago, Needofwisdom said:

My scale is becoming even more inaccurate and measuring it out is becoming more troublesome. 

First of all you need to calibrate your scale now and then!

 

Second, the liquid method is much more secure!

 

Believe the syringe and NOT the bottle. And by the way you also added the volume of the pill itself. So it is logic that it would be more than 10ml....

 

Keep using the same (kind) syringes. So even if they would not be 100% accurate (which I doubt) you would always have the same fault which would not mind then...

 

Edited September 15, 2021 by Go2zero

[Needofwisdom]

12 minutes ago, Go2zero said:

First of all you need to calibrate your scale now and then!

 

Second, the liquid method is much more secure!

 

Believe the syringe and NOT the bottle. Keep using the same (kind) syringes. So even if they would not be 100% accurate (which I doubt) you would always have the same fault which would not mind then...

 

 

Thank you Go2zero i try to calibrate each and every time i weigh out the dose. It seems to fluctuate. My plan is to weigh out the .006g on the scale which would be roughly .441mg eyeball it in half then use the liquid 1ml syringe to dose the .22ml until i slowly go on to full liquid. This is very stressful and pretty much terrifying at this point.  Please add anything i would be doing wrong at this point. I can feel my body doesnt like this poison in it. Do you think that someone like me who had been on it for 10 months or so would have a lot of trouble getting off it with a quicker taper than 10% a month as opposed to those that have been on them for many years? I know that the first time i tapered off in November it was relatively easy and then I believe the huge mistake was coming off them 6 days cold turkey in april. 

[Altostrata]

We cannot fix inconsistent dosing from measurement variation. You will have to figure out how to do that yourself. Using the prescribed liquid will be more reliable.

[Needofwisdom]

3 hours ago, Altostrata said:

We cannot fix inconsistent dosing from measurement variation. You will have to figure out how to do that yourself. Using the prescribed liquid will be more reliable.

 

Altostrata the manufacturer of the liquid is different from the manufacturer of the pill form. The pill manufacturer is Accord HEA and the liquid manufacturer is Amneal PHA. How do I know taking a different manufacturers generic liquid lexapro wont adversely affect me? It could be more potent mg for ml as ive read before from other users on here. 

[Altostrata]

What do you think the best solution for your problem can be? How would you improve the consistency of your dosing?

[Needofwisdom]

 

 

3 hours ago, Altostrata said:

What do you think the best solution for your problem can be? How would you improve the consistency of your dosing?

 

Thank you Altostrata i think the best solution would be to be very careful follow instructions and do everything i can to make this work out. Right now I am very emotional and i have gone into crying spells with a lot of uncertainty. Im walking a thin line and im not sure how to go about this switch whilst being like this. If something does go wrong is there a back up plan or do i just abandon and go back to pills? I would like to see if I can stabilize a little bit better before i switch. I think my dose really kicked my butt. I feel a lot of my emotions coming back at once just really emotional/sad/crying one moment then ok the next. In a way it feels like im human again at this dose .005g. When i switch over to liquid im going to go as low as i can. I think lower is better because there is less chance of it being too strong. Then if its too low maybe slightly updose from there. 

 

 

 

 

[Altostrata]

 

11 hours ago, Needofwisdom said:

I tried making my own liquid today i crushed a 10mg pill and used a 10 ml syringe full of water to mix it then i transferred it into the 10 ml amber bottle and the bottle is reading higher than 10 ml when i measured 10ml exactly in the syringe.

 

If you mix the crushed tablet and water well, It doesn't matter how much is in the bottle, you're only taking 0.5mg from it. Do your mixing with the same equipment in the same way every time you make the liquid. This will keep your dosing consistent.

 

Please let us know how you're doing.

[Needofwisdom]

10 hours ago, Altostrata said:

 

 

If you mix the crushed tablet and water well, It doesn't matter how much is in the bottle, you're only taking 0.5mg from it. Do your mixing with the same equipment in the same way every time you make the liquid. This will keep your dosing consistent.

 

Please let us know how you're doing.

 

My anxiety is going through the roof right now probably from lowering my dose too much. So I take 1/4 of .5ml from the 10ml syringe with 10mg in it but have to eyeball 3/4 dose of the .5mg pill first which i dont know is accurate or not.. is transferring to the liquid in one switch a bad idea ?

 

I am about to have full blown panic attack

[Needofwisdom]

The feeling i had last night and throughout today is feeling a lot like myself before I was ever put on lexapro. The only difference is im very emotional and am having a lot of anxiety like i am on the verge of a panic attack. I dont know what the ideal dose is from here is but im trying to figure it out i know i need to slightly updose from yesterday and slightly go down from the previous days. Thats the tricky part. I had to take 750mg of Gaba to deal with the anxiety and panic and it has calmed me down enough where i can function but i still feel the surges of adrenaline. I probably need to take my dose as soon as possible now. 

[Altostrata]

@Needofwisdom It appears that to some extent, you are creating conditions that cause you to be anxious. You are the only person who can stop this. Working with a coach or psychotherapist can help.

 

We can't help you with this here, we don't have the expertise.

 

In terms of dealing with withdrawal syndrome, from now on, please take a carefully measured dose from the prescribed escitalopram liquid and remove that concern you have about mixing your dose, which may be adding to your anxiety.

 

Be sure to take that dose at the same time each day. Please let us know how you're doing.

[Needofwisdom]

I have only slept 3 hours in the lasr 2 days but i still feel wired like im on an ampherltamine or something. These are now not even the wothrawals but the initial start up side effects. I cant get any sleep at all, my symptoms are burning rushing anxiety major insomnia. I know these arent the withdrawals now because i had gotten over the insomnia during the previous months. Now its back with a vengeance its become my most debilitating symptom so far and i havent used a single ativan or klonopin for it yet this entire time but at this point im thinking im going to because i feel like if i cant sleep im going to shut down going like this. I feel super wirey at night

 

[Needofwisdom]

It feels like after the initial withdrawal alleviation the start up side effects began to kick in. Now i feel like my mind and body just keeps kicking on and on even though i haveelnt had any sleep. I feel like i havent slept in 5 days but my brain just keeps on going. Emotional swings have subsided from previous but im reacting very sensitively to the reinstatement at this point. Sleep seems to just be getting worst. Anxiety and panic subsides during the day and becomes elevated during 12am to 7am surges of adrenaline i cant seem to fall asleep like I used to not even for 2 hours.

[Needofwisdom]

This is ridiculous insanity i cannot function like this day in and day out doing all this by myself whilst not being to fall asleep realistically speaking this is basically impossible to do 

[Needofwisdom]

 

On 9/17/2021 at 12:18 PM, Altostrata said:

@Needofwisdom 

 

Be sure to take that dose at the same time each day. Please let us know how you're doing.

 

Update as of today i am on .3ml of the prescribed liquid currently feeling heavily fatigued from lack of sleep.. still not sleeping properly waking up in cycles. Day to day i still get crying spells i lowered my dose on the liquid to see if it was too strong compared to the pill form. I dont know if it was the correct choice. I feel as though its up in the air i am slowly going to go back up to see if it reduces symptoms of crying spells, dysphoria and other symptoms. I want to find the right doseage day to day where the side effects arent too overwhelming and the withdrawals arent coming on as strong.

 

Overall i feel as though my nervous system is trying to find balance with periods of feeling like its somewhat there. The withdrawals along with the side effects were/are very grueling and rocky. I feel like crap at this dose but nowhere near as bad when completely off of it. It seems like the tiniest dose change makes a big difference. I didnt want to go to .5ml on liquid because i didnt know if it be too much. No significant crashes at .3ml, mood, emotions flat,sad to worried.

 

Panic feeling upon falling asleep. Tried Trazadone 12.5mg one night to see if it would aid in sleep. Had a somewhat stimulating effect but made me fall asleep but not for much longer. Did not like the after effect/grogginess stopped use after 1 night i figure less chemicals my nervous system has to take in the better. Another night i took 1mg of klonopin after being awake for almost 3 days straight as an emergency. Fell asleep woke up 4 hours later stayed awake 1 hour and then back to sleep for 10 hours. Total sleep that night 14 hours groggy the next day. 

 

Seems like a delicate balance i am taking the .3ml every morning 8 am or so. How i got to .3ml is i started with .25ml and noticed the same old bad withdrawals and a few hours later added another .05ml which made it tolerable. Poor sleep has been hindering me the most in my day to day recovery. The doseage of .5mg in pill form or .007g  could have swayed from .5mg to .4mg  to .3mg based on the inaccuracy of the scale. 

 

I was told i could split the liquid into 2 different doses at different times of the day as to not overwhelm my nervous system all at once. I dont know there were times on the pill form i felt more energy/stronger at what i assume was .5mg but it was unnatural/amphetamine like and side effects were strong because no one should feel energized after 2 hours of sleep a night everyday. I believe the ideal doseage is somewhere between .3ml and .5ml.  

 

I just dont see how recovery will happen if sleep is not significantly improved.  Depression much too evident.  Taking  magnesium, omega 3s and l theanine daily.

 

 

 

 

[Needofwisdom]

I have some questions if i am on .3ml of this poison what is it going to take for me to get back to homeostasis without having to take any of it. Is the reason im not really crashing anymore because the body/brain needs this in it just to sort of go back to normal? Or is it because that .3ml is now more powerful due to hypersensitization ? I currently feel like im just depressed, i dont feel like im on anything as far as the feeling of lexapro. I feel like its my old depressed self.. how long does it usually take for someone to come off such a low dose? Is there even a point to updosing if im just going to feel crappy coming back down again ?

[Needofwisdom]

 

 

Wait im sorry i dont even know what i am saying anymore because of the lack of sleep. I definitely am feeling so strange i dont know if i can even tell what my normal self is like because of all this zombie like symptoms, emotional breakdowns,lack of sleep. I am trying to figure out what i should be doing from here.  I think im forgetting a lot here but its been a stressful day and im trying to get some sleep right now..

[Altostrata]

On 9/19/2021 at 8:29 AM, Needofwisdom said:

It feels like after the initial withdrawal alleviation the start up side effects began to kick in. Now i feel like my mind and body just keeps kicking on and on even though i haveelnt had any sleep.

 

Please give more details. Startup effects of what?

 

What do these startup effects feel like?

 

What times o'clock do you take each of your drugs, with their dosages?

 

Hang in there, we have many people here with withdrawal insomnia, this is tough but it does go away.

[Needofwisdom]

59 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

 

Please give more details. Startup effects of what?

 

What do these startup effects feel like?

 

What times o'clock do you take each of your drugs, with their dosages?

 

Hang in there, we have many people here with withdrawal insomnia, this is tough but it does go away.

 

Startup effects of the drug like the initial side effects you get when starting an ssri like lexapro. The start up side effects feel like emotional numbness as opposed to the withdrawals of having your emotions all over the place. I mean withdrawals and initial side effects tend to be similar for example headaches you can get coming off the drug and going on the drug. So instead of the withdrawal symptoms its the initial side effects, increased anxiety, panicky feelings, brain fog, insomnia all of these are side effects of starting and are symptoms of withdrawals as well but i know new symptoms popping up arent withdrawals because reinstatement relieved some of the withdrawals to manageable levels.  Its like when is this going to let off... i had gotten over the insomnia portion of withdrawals before reinstatement. It was only right after reinstatement that my insomnia came back in the form of broken sleep cycles. Going to sleep then waking up an hour later or 2 hours later like as if i had 8 hours of sleep and look at the time only an hour or 2 passed by.. what im trying to say is that the lexapro side effect is broken sleep cycles. Ive read upon it from different lexapro users experiencing the same thing when starting it. 

 

I currently am taking .32ml of the liquid lexapro at 8:30 am. 

 

Im not really taking any other medications rn.. just supplements magnesium,l theanine, fish oil. 

 

Thank you Altostrata for replying

 

 

[Altostrata]

I am confused. Are you saying you get startup effects from changing to 0.32 escitalopram liquid?

 

What are these new "startup" symptoms? How has this changed your symptom pattern?

 

How much sleep are you getting each night?

[Needofwisdom]

3 hours ago, Altostrata said:

I am confused. Are you saying you get startup effects from changing to 0.32 escitalopram liquid?

 

Initially i was 4.5 months into a cold turkey withdrawal i reinstated at about .5mg in pill form, this relieved the terrible withdrawal symptoms to the degree where they decreased in intensity by 50 to 60% with windows and waves.. before reinstating my insomnia or ability to sleep through the night had resolved a few months into withdrawal and after reinstatement a new symptom came up i would fall asleep but wake up an hour later as if i had slept through a whole night. I continued taking the .5mg as days went i started noticing the withdrawal relief was turning into side effects from the drug waking up panicking, adrenaline rushes,emotional numbess,feeling like a zombie etc... at about 4 weeks in i switched to liquid fully i am now on .32ml of the liquid the broken sleep cycles are still here every night. I still get panicky feelings falling asleep and waking up all side effects people feel when they first get on lexapro and the side effects i was getting as i was coming up on .5mg for the first few weeks. In the pill form i think i was destabilizing very rapidly due to inaccurate dosing. At what i thought was .5mg i felt the lexapro was really strong as weeks went by.

 

3 hours ago, Altostrata said:

 

What are these new "startup" symptoms? How has this changed your symptom pattern?

 

The symptoms are basically what one would experience when they first start on an AD like lexapro, increased anxiety, broken sleep, fatigue, mental numbess, emotional blunting, feelings of adrenaline in the mornings, its been 5 weeks now that i have been on it. My dose is now .32ml of the liquid at this dose i am not getting depression relief but many of the previous withdrawal symptoms before reinstating have diminished in intensity to the point where i just feel depressed. Its s bit hard to explain but the symptom pattern has changed from extreme withdrawals to feeling heavy fatigue/ low energy ,broken sleep  while having side effects of putting lexapro back in my system after being off of it for months... its like initially the body was relieved to have it as if it needed it to deal with heavy withdrawals as time went on and it started to build up it started creating more side effects and i was feeling under the influence of the AD. 

 

3 hours ago, Altostrata said:

 

 

How much sleep are you getting each night?

It varies sometimes an hour other nights 3 hours and the most ive gotten was 4 to 5 hours but not all in one sleep cycle but in broken sleep cycles.

[Altostrata]

What time o'clock do you take escitalopram?

 

I am doubtful you are feeling startup effects. Rather, you have mistaken the waves of withdrawal symptoms for startup effects.

 

Have you taken Klonopin or Ativan in the last 2 weeks?

[Needofwisdom]

7 hours ago, Altostrata said:

What time o'clock do you take escitalopram?

8am

 

7 hours ago, Altostrata said:

 

I am doubtful you are feeling startup effects. Rather, you have mistaken the waves of withdrawal symptoms for startup effects.

 

Thank you for your input but i have a something to add, ok i understand how you could be doubtful of something i have personally experienced based on your own assesment but i have experienced the withdrawals and the side effects of starting in the past snd while they are similar they are also unique.  I have also been off the medication prior to reinstating for months just like when I weaned off in november 2019 and started again in april 2020 i was experiencing side effects of restarting the drug back in April. When you go off an ssri for a while then go back on it you are going to have to go through the side effects of restarting it again aren't you ? for example the crazy nightmares lasted for the first 2 weeks or so then stopped. Thats one of the side effects lexapro users get when starting up again. Why would i take the lexapro again just to get old withdrawal symptoms i had from the past in the beginning of my withdrawals when the purpose of reinstating is to ease your withdrawals and not bring up new or old ones?

 

So what you are saying is that by reinstating i just went back to some old withdrawal symptoms i had gotten over previously ? That these in no way can be side effects from reinstating the drug after months not having it be stable in my body? Im constantly reading user threads/posts online of lexapro users just starting up on their lexapro and their symptoms are pretty much identical to mine. I am sorry Altostrata but i am just in awe of how impossible this process has become. 

 

7 hours ago, Altostrata said:

 

Have you taken Klonopin or Ativan in the last 2 weeks?

 

Yes i have taken an emergency dose 1mg of klonopin because i was awake for almost 3 days straight (2 hours of sleep) about 10 days ago. 

 

What in the heck is it going to take to get off this crap ?  I mean seriously is there a way off this drug when im at .32ml and cant get off ? How low am i supposed to go this is an absolute nightmare i cant get any proper sleep. 

[Altostrata]

15 hours ago, Needofwisdom said:

When you go off an ssri for a while then go back on it you are going to have to go through the side effects of restarting it again aren't you ?

 

Not necessarily.

 

Withdrawal symptoms can be random, changeable, and persist even through reinstatement, until you stabilize. We often see people mistaking withdrawal symptoms for adverse drug effects and vice versa. 

 

You'll have to decide whether you're really in need of wisdom from people who have seen hundreds of cases of withdrawal and reinstatement.

 

See 

 

About reinstating and stabilizing to reduce withdrawal symptoms 
 

The Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization

 

Stabilizing, what does that mean? How long does it take after reinstating or updosing?

 

How do you feel before and after taking escitalopram in the morning? Do you experience a ramp up in symptoms at any particular times of day?

[Needofwisdom]

8 hours ago, Altostrata said:

 

How do you feel before and after taking escitalopram in the morning? Do you experience a ramp up in symptoms at any particular times of day?

 

I feel about the same before and after, i feel the a ramp up in symptoms in the evening before bed i dont know i feel like my body is almost detaching from my mind it feels lmost dead but mind keeps on ticking. The lack of sleep keeps adding up to the problem im thinking of giving up i cant keep going day in and day out with my sleep pattern like this its taking a huge toll on my physical health and hindering any progress i am making through the reinstatement. I feel like a zombie an exhausted zombie who is losing his mind.. i dont know what should i do just say screw it and take benadryl every night ? I know if i take a unisom doxylamine i will at least knockout... i just need to get some sleep before i lose it completely.

[Needofwisdom]

22 hours ago, Altostrata said:

 

 

About reinstating and stabilizing to reduce withdrawal symptoms 
 

The Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization

 

Stabilizing, what does that mean? How long does it take after reinstating or updosing?

 

I mean is it really possible to stabilize if you are depressed and have insomnia. Like how would I stabilize especially right now if my sleep is terrible and because my sleep is terrible my mental health and physical health is terrible as well. I mean on a daily basis im probably just miserable because my dose is too low and i need to go back up a bit then come the side effects of having more of it in my body.. please help me figure this out i will updose today by .5ml..

[Altostrata]

Nobody seems to like withdrawal insomnia.

 

It appears 0.5mg escitalopram has no effect. How about trying 1.0mg? Please let us know how you're doing.

[Needofwisdom]

On 10/1/2021 at 2:30 PM, Altostrata said:

Nobody seems to like withdrawal insomnia.

 

It appears 0.5mg escitalopram has no effect. How about trying 1.0mg? Please let us know how you're doing.

 

Altostrata i mistyped i meant updosing from .32ml by .05ml to .37ml and see how i do there then go slightly up or hold at that not sure. I want to still feel like myself but I think that when I remember my self i just remember a depressed person and being depressed isnt going to help me. lets say i go up to 1ml and nothing changes what would be my options from there? What if i stuck it out at this dose and kept supplementing with l tryptophan which ive had success with in managing my fatigue and mood and then gradually started dropping down again to  0? Bad idea ? Possible ? I remember when i went over .5mg in pill form i started getting too sensitized to the dose.. 

[Altostrata]

21 hours ago, Needofwisdom said:

Altostrata i mistyped i meant updosing from .32ml by .05ml to .37ml and see how i do there then go slightly up or hold at that not sure.

 

How much drug in milligrams, not milliliters, are you taking? Do you feel better or worse after the increase?

 

We don't treat "depression" here. What we want to do is help people manage withdrawal symptoms. If you want treatment for "depression", you'll have to talk to a doctor.

 

Please note: Your prior experience of "depression" may have arisen from your habit of taking your drug inconsistently.