Ktven48: Effexor taper gone wrong

[Ktven48]

@deg1979

 

Thank you for writing me. I guess I have been experiencing DP/DR for 3 months then. I’m in so so much pain.

 

I did take ambien for three nights but Idk if it’s causing me rebound depression (more weeping SI the day after) so I think I have to stop. Idk what to do next. 
 

I’m running thin and terrified.

 

❤️

[deg1979]

@Ktven48, just a thought, but it could also just be the change? I don’t know about you, but any little thing I change, or any little thing beyond my control that changes in the world (daylight savings, weather, etc), affects me by sending me into some kind of wave. My central nervous system is not able to handle change right now. I wonder if your system will stabilize if you stay on it for a bit and catch up on your sleep? I don’t know anything about Ambien except that it is one to be careful with, but I also know you desperately need some sleep! 

[Greatful]

@Ktven48

How are you doing?

 

Did you try and cut the ambien in half?   You can look up or read the insert from the pharmacy the side affects.  Read through them all not just the common ones.

You should also go on drugs.com  https://www.drugs.com/ 

Put all your drugs and supplements in and see what the drug interaction with all your meds.

When do you leave for your trip?

[Ktven48]

@Greatful

 

the ambien gave me bad DP/DR anxiety and depression headache , cognition issues the next day and etc.  I don’t think a lower dose will help.

 

I think I have to accept that I won’t be sleeping for a while. Idk how I’m supposed to do this. Zero hours is quite a thing. I wonder if anyone else who has been through zero sleep on this site can help me. @Altostrata i know you’ve had sleep issues - are there any other mods as well that can help me with words of wisdom or make me feel bette that have gone many many days without sleep. I’m really scared. 

 

It feels as if my trazadone just stopped working. I’m at a loss 
 

 

[Greatful]

@Ktven48  There are plenty that have struggled with sleep.  Most will say that you have to make peace with not getting sleep.  I know this maybe harder for you since you are Pregnant and if I remember right ( my last PG was in 1999) sleep is one of the top thing your body wants. 

Try and connect with other members that are having this same issue.

 use your search engine type in survivingantidepression.org insomnia

 

How did the trip go. Remember to put yourself first while you are out of town. 

 

[Altostrata]

@Ktven48 Did you read this post? You have not answered my questions.

 

 

When is your baby due? My guess is a lot of your symptoms are normal ones associated with pregnancy.

 

23 hours ago, Ktven48 said:

I guess I have been experiencing DP/DR for 3 months then. I’m in so so much pain.

 

Sorry about the withdrawal in September. You have a long history of going on and off drugs and been fairly heavily drugged since then. Do you think the drugs you're taking might have anything to do with your current state of not feeling present?

 

This is a site for going off drugs. We're not about to advise you to increase trazodone or take any kind of drug cocktail for potential pregnancy insomnia. Let your doctors take that risk.

 

As you do not appear to have read my posts or responded to my questions about taking your drugs inconsistently, alcohol, etc., I have to ask you not to tag me again unless you want help tapering drugs.

 

I'm sorry you feel so awful. Some women find pregnancy difficult. What you really need is a pregnancy coach or pregnancy counselor or support group. You are on the wrong Web site.

 

[Ktven48]

Hello mods

 

@Onmyway @DataGuy @manymoretodays 
 

please please please I am desperate for help

 

The propranolol I am on is causing me extreme insomnia and I need to taper ASAP. I’ll need to do a water taper but I feel so overwhelmed with how to start this. 
 

I am on 15mg instant release propranolol a day - my dr has also prescribed me atenolol since it might be easier with the insomnia  But who knows. Maybe I could cross taper at a lower propranolol amount?

 

I am so scared and don’t want to make the wrong decisions. I understand it’s not a “psych” med but the withdrawals I experienced last time were extreme panic attacks, adrenaline and cortisol surges and an incredible racing heart. 
 

Any help to get me started greatly appreciated! 

[manymoretodays]

Hi Ktven48,

1 hour ago, Ktven48 said:

The propranolol I am on is causing me extreme insomnia and I need to taper ASAP. I’ll need to do a water taper but I feel so overwhelmed with how to start this. 

How long have you been on the propranolol?

And what's going on with your other drugs now? 

Recent drug changes or tapers?

How long has the insomnia been going on?

 

Let's start gradually, to decrease your overwhelm.  And first, if you could offer a bit more information that would be really helpful.

 

That'll help make things objectively clearer.

Recording daily drug schedule and symptoms

Look at the quote in the first post, and try to do a couple days just like the sample note and then post here.

Right in a reply box.

 

Much less overwhelm, when you can stay objective.  It's hard though, as we all know......in WD.

 

Here's what we've got on tapering propranolol:

Tips for tapering off propranolol

Well worth a read through and study now.

 

And breathe out.  Nice and gentle in breaths to 4 seconds, Hold for 7 seconds, and then out for 8 seconds.  The 4-7-8 breathing.

Anything else that you have found that helps when you feel so desperate?

Symptoms and Self Care forum

Important topics about symptoms, including sleep problems

*Tips to help sleep: so many of us have that awful withdrawal insomnia

 

So, some questions for you, and do especially peek at the tapering topic, and sleep tips.

 

I'll be back around soon. 

 

Love, peace, healing, and growth,

mmt

 

Any leads yet to additional support around your pregnancy?  I think that could really help a lot too. When is baby due??

Edited November 26, 2021 by manymoretodays
spelling, additional, and one removal

[Ktven48]

@manymoretodays

 

thank you so much for getting back.

 

I have been taking inconsistent doses since 9/14 on an “as need” basis to help with panic attacks. I am also going through withdrawal symptoms from a too fast taper of Venlafaxine at end of August. 
 

The reason I believe the propranolol and not Venlafaxine withdrawal is causing me insomnia is because i stopped the Propranolol for two weeks and my sleep returned to “withdrawal normal” 3-5 hours a night. I had to start back up 11/5 due to severe Propranolol withdrawal - racing heart to be exact. I’ve read in support groups the withdrawal can sneak up on you 1-2 weeks later. The timeline seems to match up. 

 

Since I’ve started back up my sleep had deteriorated into full blown insomnia.  Propranolol stops melatonin production up to 80%. Even a supplement does not help though.

 

I now take 15 mg at 8am, 11am, 2pm. I am at these times because I’m trying to take 15 mg all at once instead of spaced out through the day. I have been slowly working on this over the past month - trying to get my latest dose before a certain time to try and reduce the insomnia. 
Do you think I can I easily switch to 15mg once a day now? I haven’t had too much trouble doing this- maybe extra evening anxiety. 
 

Once I have a once daily dose it will much easier to keep an eye on symptoms as I decrease. 
 

Let me know what you think 

 

-Katie 

[manymoretodays]

It appears to have a short half life, propranolol does.

So you might do better doing your taper, off all 3 doses, before reducing to 2 doses a day, or even 1 dose a day.

 

If presently you take a total of 45 mg propranolol/day.

A 10% taper would be 40.5 mg/day.
 

If it were me, I might go down to 40 mg/day, or 13.3 mg propranolol, taken at the same times that you have been.

 

Then, go down from the 40 mg to 36 mg/day.

 

You may be able to go with taking your dose just twice a day, as long as you are not experiencing rebound cardiac symptoms.  You are going to need to pay attention, with each taper.  Notes, or daily logs are great, as far as for evaluations purposes.   You want, and what we like to see as we evaluate, are symptoms before and after each dose of your drug, throughout a 24 hour period.  And then also nice to see a couple of days to look for patterns and/or trends in your response.

 

You can study the propranolol tapering topic too, to explore ways to get the non produced doses you'll need.

 

Maybe you'll find that you do okay on less, and won't need to taper completely off.  Time will tell, and careful observation.

 

* and I just can't endorse a too fast taper, off any drug really Ktven48.  I'd rather err on the side of caution, or harm reduction.  It's important to observe before just going headstrong into things too.......

I guess we all do it, act impulsively once or twice coming off medications.......I know I did, but no reason for it, unless your adverse reaction is very serious.  I'm not even sure, as yet, that the insomnia relates to the propranolol.......just saying.

 

And wishing you sleep, blessed sleep......

Edited November 26, 2021 by manymoretodays
more

[manymoretodays]

Ktven48,

I've edited my reply.  Sorry about that, I shouldn't press that submit reply button until I am completely satisfied with my replies. 

Just so you know, and can take a re-read if need be.

 

Let me know what you decide, and how it is going.  Thanks.

 

Best.

[Ktven48]

Thank you so much.

 

I am only taking 5mg each time I take it.

 

So I will make a 10% cut and reduce by .5 3x a day. 
 

so to start 4.5, 4.5, 4.5. 
 

Am I right on that? 
 

thanks again. 

[manymoretodays]

Yup.

This looks good!

2 minutes ago, Ktven48 said:

Thank you so much.

 

I am only taking 5mg each time I take it.

 

So I will make a 10% cut and reduce by .5 3x a day. 
 

so to start 4.5, 4.5, 4.5. 
 

Am I right on that? 
 

thanks again. 

 

[manymoretodays]

Ktven48,

Look, here's the sample note for doing daily drug and symptom logs:

Example:

DATE:

 

6 a.m. Woke with anxiety
8 a.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro
10 a.m. Stomach is upset
10:30 a.m. Ate breakfast
11:35 a.m. Got a headache, lasted one hour
12:35 p.m. Ate lunch
4 p.m. Feel a bit better
5 p.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro
6 p.m. Ate dinner
9:20 p.m. Headache
10:00 p.m. Took 50mg Seroquel
10:20 p.m. Feeling dizzy
10:30 p.m. Fell asleep
2:30 a.m. Woke, took 3mg Ambien (NOT "took 1/2 tablet Ambien")
2:45 a.m. Fell asleep
4:30 a.m. Woke but got back to sleep

 

And the full post with details of how to do is here

 

And then you just fill your own, hours on the left, ALL drugs by name and dose on the right, symptoms on the right, and any supplements on the right.  You can note your insomnia as a symptom to the right as well.

 

Then post one, or 3 days of this for us to see too.  I really think it will help with your overwhelm and desperation at times and will help us bunches too, to help you.

 

 

[Altostrata]

I checked with an obstetrics nurse about pregnancy insomnia. She said it is common and would go away after you deliver.

[deg1979]

How are you doing, @Ktven48? Any sleep? I know it can be difficult to take the time to type out the notes the mods ask for, but it helps them to help you. And it seems overwhelming when you are at your worst, but it can really help to pinpoint how different drugs are affecting you. If you are able, post notes for them! I hope you are doing well on your propranolol cut. I took if for a week or so, and I do agree it messes with your sleep in unusual ways. 

[Ktven48]

@manymoretodays

 

It took a while for the compounding pharmacy to have my script ready.

 

but now I am reconsidering staying on this propranolol - When I do sleep I am getting terrible nightmares. I really can’t stand it. 
 

my doctor prescribed me atenolol where this side effect is not so prevalent.

 

Should I do a cross taper? If so how would I go about doing this? 
 

*so propranolol to atenolol then taper. 
 

thank you so much 

[ChessieCat]

52 minutes ago, Ktven48 said:

my doctor prescribed me atenolol where this side effect is not so prevalent.

 

Should I do a cross taper? If so how would I go about doing this? 

 

SA cannot assist you with changing your blood pressure medication.  This is your doctor's responsibility so please discuss it with him/her.

[Ktven48]

I understand - I will do the direct switch my Dr suggested and taper from there. 
 

Thank you. 

[deg1979]

PLEASE NOTE the following from Alto's response:

 

2 hours ago, Altostrata said:

I am very uneasy about the this community advising a pregnant woman on multiple drugs about her medical treatment. If Ktven48 is being treated for pregnancy-related hypertension, it's none of our business.

 

 

 

@Ktven48, was propranolol prescribed to you to manage blood pressure or to manage anxiety? It was specifically prescribed to me as an anxiety medication. Was is the same for you? 
 

I did not know that quitting it could have a rebound effect, but I took it for a couple of weeks at different dosages and then abruptly stopped taking it. I now know I should not have done that; I do think it caused my heart to race. At the same time, I was feeling like I was going to pass out quite often when I stood. It did give me really awful nightmares. Like, the most disturbing nightmares of my life. I also had some really weird things happen as I was falling asleep—kind of hearing sounds that weren’t there and feeling sensations that did not exist. I also think it might have made it so I couldn’t fall asleep normally but kept jerking awake repeatedly all night. That happens commonly in WD, it seems, but when I was taking propranolol it was much worse. It was also the second week after my adverse reaction, though. 
 

In other words, I think your doctor’s plan sounds like a good one. I hope the atenolol relieves the crazy sleep side effects of propranolol. I did not experience much anxiety relief from propranolol, so I did not miss it. I hope tapering it works well for you! If I understand, the taper with beta blockers is to prevent rebound heart rate effects—they don’t want your heart to race or do anything else it shouldn’t.

 

Edited December 3, 2021 by ChessieCat
added reponse post link

[deg1979]

Propranolol is often used to treat performance anxiety in musicians, or with public speaking and other similar situations when the patient needs to have full use of their brain and body but still needs to manage the physical symptoms of anxiety, such as a racing heart and sweating and shaking. 
 

A friend of mine takes it for anxiety at work. Psychiatric providers seem happy to prescribe it, in my experience, because it does not cause dependency issues. In my experience it really didn’t touch withdrawal anxiety. I would consider taking it, after this is all over, for performance anxiety. Prior to my trial of Lexapro, performance anxiety was really the only kind I had. I experienced it if I had to speak in public or perform in some other way. Also if I had to catch an early flight or something like that. I now understand those are cases of performance anxiety, and I should not have been prescribed Lexapro for it. 

[deg1979]

@Ktven48, I would do the direct switch your dr suggested. I should have answered you more directly. I just woke up. Since it doesn’t create dependency, and it isn’t actually a psychiatric medication, I think you will be fine following your dr’s suggestion to do a direct switch. I am not a moderator, but it seems that moderators say it’s not a psych med per se, so you should be safe following dr’s orders.
 

Might be worth a quick google search just to check atenolol’s side effects before the switch. I did not check propranolol’s first, so its side effects were a shock! With performance anxiety, people take it before a performance rather than round the clock, so those negative side effects don’t seem to be an issue. It’s taking it at a consistent dose daily for a time when they come into play. 

[Ktven48]

@deg1979 thank you for stopping by. I am holding off on any changes at the moment that might disrupt my CNS. I am having a rough time right now.

 

 

My akathisia has ramped up this past week and I’m trying to figure out why. I have not changed anything except slowly moving my Effexor dose up by the half hour every day. I don’t know if this could have such a profound effect.

 

After a few days of calm I am now having burning/racing heart as soon as my eyes open in the morning - I get some relief in the afternoons with an OK mood but the burning/cortisol comes back at night. 
 

I don’t know if this is windows and waves. It’s just so intense. I will hold changing my Effexor dose time and see if anything improves. 
 

I’m just staying still until I can figure this out.

 

Have an appointment on Monday to  test my Thyroid. 
 

This burning is really concerning. Hyper-vigilance. Just so much anxiety. I thought it would ease up a little by now.  

[Altostrata]

4 hours ago, deg1979 said:

I did not know that quitting it could have a rebound effect, but I took it for a couple of weeks at different dosages and then abruptly stopped taking it. I now know I should not have done that; I do think it caused my heart to race. At the same time, I was feeling like I was going to pass out quite often when I stood. It did give me really awful nightmares.

 

This is a pretty good description of adverse effects from taking too high a dose of propranolol and rebound effects from going off too fast.

 

Propranolol does create physiological dependency, @deg1979, that's where those rebound symptoms come from -- the blood pressure spikes are withdrawal symptoms (and can be quite dangerous). Propranolol is often prescribed for anxiety. It is a quasi-psychiatric drug.

 

I am very uneasy about the this community advising a pregnant woman on multiple drugs about her medical treatment. If Ktven48 is being treated for pregnancy-related hypertension, it's none of our business.

 

@Ktven48 has also declined to provide the daily notes we would need to identify symptoms that may be due to withdrawal from psychiatric drugs. Not sure what we can do to help here.

[Ktven48]

Sorry Alto 

 

I don’t mean to ask for any help in regards to changing/going off or on medication. Only wish to have guidance with tapering Prop since my Dr thinks “i can just stop anytime”.  But I won’t be tapering just yet. 
 

I should have been giving daily notes - they are logged in my phone. 
 

I will start updating this thread as I’d like to see what the medications are giving me as far as side effects to differentiate withdrawal symptoms.

 

I’ve been chatting with a fellow who put my story rather plainly as I feel it has been lost in translation on this site

 

This is how I understand your recent history:  You were holding at 3 balls for a year and were stable. Can you please tell me how many milligrams are in a "ball?" Then in January you had a miscarriage but recovered. In February you quit your adderall but it wasn't that big of a deal to get off it. Vaccine in March. During this period things started to get worse, although not as bad as it is now. In response to not feeling as well as you had been during the one year on 3 balls, you began updosing and started feeling better at 10 balls. When you found out you were pregnant, you immediately dropped back to 3 balls and everything went to hell. You started slowly updosing again and then decided to just jump to 37.5 on October 7th. “

So my withdrawals are from this yo-yo of my dosing. I have not stabilized since my drop September 1st.  I’ve been experiencing akathisia and depression since then. 

 

 

[Altostrata]

1 hour ago, Ktven48 said:

So my withdrawals are from this yo-yo of my dosing. I have not stabilized since my drop September 1st.  I’ve been experiencing akathisia and depression since then. 

 

@Ktven48 Your Effexor changes may not be responsible for your current symptom pattern. Since you first attempted to taper Effexor, many things have happened, including a miscarriage, pregnancy, a series of drug prescriptions, and countless drug changes, some cold-turkey.

 

Whatever is causing your symptoms cannot even be guessed at without those daily notes, which have been requested repeatedly. It also appears you have never consulted with people who understand symptoms that might arise from pregnancy -- which is your responsibility, not ours -- to sort out which of your complaints may be normal for pregnancy.

 

It would be irresponsible for anyone in this community to further advise you about your drugs until you collect the relevant information.

[Greatful]

@Ktven48

Hi Katie,

I just want to stop by and see how you are doing?  Please know that you are in my thoughts.

I can see this can be very over whelming especially when you are pregnant.  You brain is as mess when you are PG.  Now add on the drug mess.....

Please do not get discouraged with all the do this do that

Break it down and do one thing at a time.

Do your daily schedule and get all your PG info together.  

Did you sleep well with your other child?  I know I slept like a log.   That is all I could do was sleep for months......😴

hope we can get you at a better spot.

 

[Greatful]

@Ktven48  You've been pretty quiet.   How are things going?   When is the baby due to arrive?

 

[HugHK]

Hi @Ktven48, how are you getting on recently? better I hope?