guile2: needing help on tapering olanzapine

[ChessieCat]

It's better to go slower than to risk making your reductions too large and ending up having to updose and/or end up in hospital where they might increase your dose and/or add another drug.

[guile2]

I did follow the guide which I found on this site which said 3.6mg to 2.7mg specifically for Olanzapine. I'm not saying you're not totally right but it's kinda late to change again since I already took the dose an hour and a half ago. The guide that recommends this taper amount for Olanzapine (which I found on this site): https://academic.oup.com/schizophreniabulletin/article/47/4/1116/6178746

[ChessieCat]

I've just been reading the paper and saw this:

 

Quote

 

Some patients may prefer to taper at 10% or less of their most recent dose each month. This process might allow underlying adaptations time to resolve, possibly reducing the risk of relapse on discontinuation.

 

 

[guile2]

Ok, after rereading that article, I see now although they were recommending 3.6 to 2.7mg they were also recommending this change from 3 - 6 months, alternatively they were recommending 10% reduction each month. I didn't understand the article probably because I was so drugged up when I read it the first time. 

 

Since I had a lot of symptoms which almost landed me in the hospital after the last reduction, which have only gotten better in the last few day(s), I have decided that the reduction from 3.715 to 2.688 is too much and might very well land me in the hospital. Because of this I decided to cancel the reduction for another month. Even though I really hate doing so, I feel like this is the best way to make sure I don't end up in the hospital.

 

 

[ChessieCat]

Yes it can be very difficult trying to digest information when you are feeling awful.  That happened to me when I first came to SA.  I was experiencing very bad cog fog from trying to reduce by 50% and it was real hard trying to understand what I was reading.

 

6 minutes ago, Guile1 said:

Because of this I decided to cancel the reduction for another month. Even though I really hate doing so, I feel like this is the best way to make sure I don't end up in the hospital.

 

I am pleased to read this.  We all hate having to hold for longer, but in the long run it might mean that you are off the drug faster.  We have members here at SA who have tried to go too quickly and it has ended up taking longer to get off than if they had reduced by 10% every four weeks.  Some have even ended up on an additional drug, which of course then has to be tapered off.

 

Because I needed to reduce my Pristiq quickly at the start because I was experiencing mild serotonin syndrome, once I got to 50mg (a whole tablet) I did a hold of 3 months to let my brain catch up if it needed to.  I also did another longer hold of 7 weeks instead of 4 when I got to 20mg.  I had some compounded capsules left over and felt that it was better to again give my brain a chance to catch up if it needed to.

 

Even right at the end of my taper I ended up not stopping at the time I planned because I was having other non drug / non withdrawal issues and I didn't want to confuse things.  At least that way I knew it was not withdrawal causing any issues I had.

[guile2]

Well, honestly this month I almost ended up in the Hospital after going from 5mg to 3.715mg (Voices, body feeling controlled to do things, and sensed communication from other sources in my head)  ... But I feel like I stabilized a few days ago. So, I talked it over with my Mother and we agreed that I'm going to stay on this dose for another month. I never had any voices before I was forced on Haldol and a long acting injection of Haldol (went for 10 years without them). 

[hayduke]

Yeah, if you were on 15mg only back in March, you've got down to 5mg pretty quickly.  Holding for a while longer, till you feel ready, is sensible.  Since you have made a large cut, as ChessieCat calculated for you, you might find your body will want 10-12 weeks to catch up with a nearly 30% cut.

 

I found it was pretty easy to get down from 10mg to 5mg over a few months, but below 5mg you are tapering for real.  I first jumped from 5 to 3 1/3mg in one go and it was utterly miserable.  I just jumped back to 5mg and stayed there till I was educated about the need for slow tapering.

 

For reference, you might find the graph of my taper down from 5mg of interest.

 

Edited November 23, 2021 by hayduke
Suggest longer hold

[guile2]

My concern is ending up in the hospital with psychosis. If I go this slowly (probably take almost 3 years), is it other peoples experience that they avoid the hospital stay...

 

[ChessieCat]

It took me 6 years to get of 100mg Pristiq.  And yes, I wanted to get off quickly but after learning what I did after joining SA I knew that it was better to go as slowly as I needed to go so I could get off with minimal withdrawal symptoms.  I had experienced bad withdrawal symptoms when I tried to reduce from 100mg to 50mg.  Because I knew how bad the symptoms could get I didn't want to go through bad symptoms again so I decided to go as slowly and I needed to.  Even near the very end I stayed on longer because I was changing my diet and changing two things at once would have made it hard for me to know if any issues were caused by the end of my taper or from the dietary changes.

 

You might consider this method of tapering which is slower and would allow you have more control, holding for longer at any stage if needed.

 

the-brassmonkey-slide-method-of-micro-tapering

 

From Post #1 of the tips for tapering Zyprexa topic:

  

On 2/8/2013 at 2:00 PM, Altostrata said:

 

Very careful tapering is necessary when you have had psychotic symptoms. Such symptoms can appear as withdrawal symptoms; that will cause you to become diagnosed as relapsed and re-medicated. Read Psychiatrist: Some patients are better off without antipsychotics...

 

 

[guile2]

Thanks for the link ChessiCat. I don't think Zyprexa is a good medicine for me to microtaper each week. Zyprexa has a long half life of over 30 hours, by the time the body is getting adjusted to a new dose it's already past 1 week. My experience with Zyprexa is that the 3rd and 4th week after a reduction is filled with withdrawal symptoms but getting past that 4th week for me they mostly went away or greatly minimized at that point. So because I have this information on how the Zyprexa withdrawal symptoms work for me, I was going to reduce it either every month, or every 2 months or 1 month 20 days. This makes sure that my brain has adjusted after the 3rd and 4th week withdrawal symptoms, and I'm kinda worried about reducing after the end of the 4th week because my chemistry has just adjusted 1 or 2 days before I'm making a new reduction. 

 

I don't think the microtaper will work for Zyprexa for me. So I just started my second month of 3.715mg and I'm mostly symptom free again but it there were a lot of withdrawal symptoms the 3rd and 4th week of the withdrawal (I actually almost landed myself in the hospital). 

 

My next reduction will most probably be 10% of 3.715mg.

 

[ChessieCat]

Remember that you have been making larger than 10% reductions in the past.

 

But it is good that you have noticed a pattern when the withdrawal symptoms worsen because they can help you to plan your taper better.

 

@hayduke

 

Would you please read Guile's last post and give your opinion?  Thanks.

[hayduke]

@Guile1 I don't share your concern with about the half life of this substance re taking more frequent, gentler steps.

 

I tried various techniques - the vanilla 10%/mo is great to start with, because it gives you a sensible baseline to customise from.  I went by feel down to 2.5mg, as you can see from my graph.  

 

I tried a daily microtaper, but gave that up quite quickly - my body never seemed to settle.

 

Then using brass monkey's slide taper, as @ChessieCat linked you to up there, I found it the least disruptive of any of the taper schedules.  While I did tinker with it a bit, this was the blueprint for me to safely reach zero olanzapine.

 

1 hour ago, Guile1 said:

My concern is ending up in the hospital with psychosis. If I go this slowly (probably take almost 3 years), is it other peoples experience that they avoid the hospital stay...

 

 

Yes.  Keeping the symptoms manageable is what determines the rate you can successfully taper at.  Your body is calling the shots, not the calendar.  Otherwise you may as well say "Ok I want this sprained ankle healed 100% by Tuesday".  It just doesn't work like that.

 

Making cuts larger than 10% is biting off more than most of our bodies can chew.  Your body is probably still processing the large cuts you've made earlier this year.  Many people find they cope for a while when they do this, but one day the body just can't deal with the healing load and debilitating symptoms can appear.

 

Also since you are on neuroleptics, you need to be aware that simply coming off this drug can produce similar symptoms to what got you hospitalised.  I believe the Horowitz paper you linked to earlier makes reference to this.  This alone should be an excellent reason for you to slow your taper, given your post here.

 

You may also find that a clinical psychologist will be invaluable to you to help you resolve the underlying issues that first brought on your troubling symptoms in your case.

 

I couldn't have safely tapered any faster than I did, and I couldn't have done it safely without help healing my trauma.  It really paid off for me.

 

 

 

 

[Altostrata]

On 11/23/2021 at 8:32 PM, hayduke said:

 I believe the Horowitz paper you linked to earlier makes reference to this.  This alone should be an excellent reason for you to slow your taper, given your post here.

 

This! Thanks, @hayduke, for that excellent post.

[guile2]

Thanks for making me aware of the recommended 10% reductions. I'm glad I didn't reduce like I was planning because I am still going through brain changes over the 1 month mark. I'm going to stay at this dose for at least one more month. 

 

 

[guile2]

So a new update on my progress... Yesterday my blurry thoughts/eyesight got significantly better after I felt a pain in my head... Weird, wires must be connecting again.  

 

And this was 1 month 11 days into my last reduction... 

[hayduke]

Yeah it takes a while!  Eventually most people find after holding for a while that they've had a few good weeks without really worrying about it, and you get a sense of wd normal.

 

Cheers

[ChessieCat]

6 minutes ago, hayduke said:

you get a sense of wd normal.

 

Stability

 

WDnormal

 

Moderator brassmonkey has written more about WDnormal in his Success Story:

 

tao-of-the-brassmonkey

 

[guile2]

I went too fast and ended up in the hospital for 4.5 months while they stabalized me on the highest dose of medicine. Argh, now i'm on 20 milligrams and just reduced 2 days ago to 17.5mg... Damn, I was so close and I was feeling good without too many issues at the 5 - 7.5 milligram level. 

 

I just wasted 5 months of my life in symptoms. I wish I would have done the 10% reduction I wouldn't be on a high dose of medicine again spending years to get to a lower dose. 

 

So this time I plan on reducing from 20 to 17.5 then 15 then 12.5 then 10 milligrams. But below 10 I will go 10% reduction this time. I hope I'm not making the same mistake twice. 

[getofflex]

3 hours ago, Guile1 said:

So this time I plan on reducing from 20 to 17.5 then 15 then 12.5 then 10 milligrams. But below 10 I will go 10% reduction this time. I hope I'm not making the same mistake twice. 

 

 

3 hours ago, Guile1 said:

I hope I'm not making the same mistake twice. 

Just an FYI, going from 20 to 17.5 is more than a 10% drop.  Especially since you were in the hospital for several months, if I were you, I would be extra careful in tapering.   It's much better to go very slowly, than to go too fast, and have to reinstate at a higher dose, which is what already happened.  Going from 12.5 to 10 mg is a 20% drop.  If you do this big reductions again, you put yourself at risk of destabilizing yourself too much, and repeating the same mistake you made.  In fact, you might consider doing a micro taper - it is gentler on your system.   Rushing a taper is likely to just make it take longer in the long run, and incur a lot of suffering along the way. 

 

Brassmonkey Slide Method of Micro Tapering

[guile2]

I'm really thinking I might have to stay on Zyprexa for life: 

 

So since I was diagnosed with schizoaffective in 2007 I have had like 10+ psychotic "episodes" hospitalizations. Basically for 10 years I would always get off every med that I was put on asap. I would be totally fine between psychotic episodes sometimes 9 months without any mental issues at all and no medication, but then I would get an episode all of a sudden and run on the street jumping on cars and other inappropriate stuff. 

 

Now I really don't believe I was ever mentally ill, but I do believe the medication has messed with my brain chemistry to the point where I feel I might have to stay on a low dose of Zyprexa (the only med i'm not allergic to), for maybe life... 

 

I've been on zyprexa for 6 years now, I tried to get off of it completely last year and I had reduced to 3.1mg but I was exercising quite a bit walking around 9 miles a day sometimes 24 miles in a day of biking/walking. I was eating a very clean diet too. But I ended up in the hospital totally fine mentally but evil voices controlling my body to do inappropriate things. 

 

The way I reduced was 15mg, 12.5mg, 10mg, 7.5mg, 5mg, 3.75mg, 3.1mg for one month or longer at each dose.

 

At the end of a month on 3.1mg I was hospitalized for about 4.5 months mostly in the hospital psych ward. 

 

One of the things I hate about my medication is it ruins my intelligence and cognitive abilities and ability to read and be intelligent, It also causes amnesia when I have had a perfect memory my whole life. 

 

However, I don't feel I can free myself completely of the medication without ending up on higher doses at the psych ward. 

 

So my plan this time around is to go from 17.5mg to 15mg to 12.5mg to 10mg one month or longer for each dose. At 10mg I plan to go 10% reduction. The reasoning behind this is an article I read from this website that says that the higher doses cause less dopamine blockage. I also feel like I am not willing to live on this high doses above 10mg for more than 6 months. 

 

If I end up in the hospital again after reducing to 10mg then I will know it was all my fault, but if I don't I will taper from 10mg at 10% every month until I get to 5mg which I plan on staying on for a while. 

 

Thank you for reading. 

[morgana]

hi @Guile1 sorry to hear you ended up back in the pych ward...my biggest fear is that....so far so good...i havnt...i was diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder, borderline personality disorder and major depression in the mid 1990's, i stayed on my meds because everytime i cold turkeyed off them i would end up on the pych ward...i learnt my lesson and just assumed like the doctors told me...i needed to be on them for the rest of my life....so i took them everyday without fail for over 20 years, eventually in oct 2017 i was on the internet and came across a book by Dr Brennan who said it was possible to get off them but you needed to taper no more than 10%...i had no support and had no idea how to taper off 10% off a pill, so i did what you did and just dropped suddenly from 10mg to a 7.5mg sat on that for a year, than jumped to 5mg straight away...sat for a year and then basically a straight jump to 2.5mg...from than on my body packed it in....i was in hell, no sleep, body pains in joints, pain in feet, body extremely stiff, dry eyes, face sores, burning hot sweats and constant need to urinate...the list is endless...i said to myself i may never get off zyprexa but if i can reduce it to the minimum amount that i would be happy with... being on a minimum amount allows me to feel more emotions, my hallucinations have decreased and i feel more human and connected to my body...however still really bad wd symptoms which i learn to deal with...i guess what i am saying is go slow, very slow, hold for long periods and make small adjustments...and expect along taper....i started on oct 2017 and now have just started reducing my 2.5mg tablet after sitting on it for 2 years as the symptoms have been horrendous....at first i would of been happy to of just reduced the amount i was on....now i will not give up until i am completely free of it...no matter if it takes me another 3 years...hang in there and dont give up your dream..

[guile2]

On 5/28/2022 at 11:43 PM, morgana said:

hi @Guile1 sorry to hear you ended up back in the pych ward...my biggest fear is that....so far so good...i havnt...i was diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder, borderline personality disorder and major depression in the mid 1990's, i stayed on my meds because everytime i cold turkeyed off them i would end up on the pych ward...i learnt my lesson and just assumed like the doctors told me...i needed to be on them for the rest of my life....so i took them everyday without fail for over 20 years, eventually in oct 2017 i was on the internet and came across a book by Dr Brennan who said it was possible to get off them but you needed to taper no more than 10%...i had no support and had no idea how to taper off 10% off a pill, so i did what you did and just dropped suddenly from 10mg to a 7.5mg sat on that for a year, than jumped to 5mg straight away...sat for a year and then basically a straight jump to 2.5mg...from than on my body packed it in....i was in hell, no sleep, body pains in joints, pain in feet, body extremely stiff, dry eyes, face sores, burning hot sweats and constant need to urinate...the list is endless...i said to myself i may never get off zyprexa but if i can reduce it to the minimum amount that i would be happy with... being on a minimum amount allows me to feel more emotions, my hallucinations have decreased and i feel more human and connected to my body...however still really bad wd symptoms which i learn to deal with...i guess what i am saying is go slow, very slow, hold for long periods and make small adjustments...and expect along taper....i started on oct 2017 and now have just started reducing my 2.5mg tablet after sitting on it for 2 years as the symptoms have been horrendous....at first i would of been happy to of just reduced the amount i was on....now i will not give up until i am completely free of it...no matter if it takes me another 3 years...hang in there and dont give up your dream..

 

 

Thanks, I have been mostly symptom free for a little over a month now, but it was terrible how bad my symptoms had become at the end of last year when I had reduced to 3.1mg... (I got hospitalized from mid January until May off and on and almost ended up in a state hospital!) I am considering the Keto diet, but I love my current diet and don't want to give it up... I have been med free many times before until I found Olanzapine which somehow is different than all the other times... Maybe one day I will be off completely, but I would settle for going slowly this time after I hit the 5mg mark. 

[guile2]

Hi, So I have an update... When I was hospitalized at the beginning of this year and the symptoms lasted for around 5 months. They put me on 10mg then 15mg then 20mg of Olanzapine (they almost put me on 30mg but I was lucky)(they also shot me up with a long acting injectible for thorazine). Then when I got out, I stayed on 20 for about a month then went to 17.5mg for 17 days then went to 15mg for 17 days then went to 12.5mg for around 23 days then I went to 10mg which I've been on for a little over a week.

 

10mg is actually the doctors recommended dose for schizophrenia so I might have been way overmedicated to begin with. I noticed now that I have some symptoms and I plan to stay on 10mg until these symptoms mostly resolve... they are not serious symptoms, just every so often I feel like my body is controlled to do stuff in my apartment but I am not experiencing any voices or anything else.

 

I just wanted to update everyone on how I'm doing.

[guile2]

Is it possible that Olanzapine is like Cigarettes?

 

I am curious about Olanzapine. 

 

I went 10 years constantly Cold Turkey'ing all my medications because I was Allergic to everything I tried (Akathesia/Distonia/Seizures/NMS). I found Olanzapine (Zyprexa) in 2016. But curiously when I tried to cold turkey Olanzapine like the other medications I had been on I found I would get continuous Psychosis. I thought it was part of my symptoms but I am thinking now because the nature of the Psychosis is very much different than anything I went through in the 10 years I was getting off other medications, it seems suspicious to me that all of a sudden after 10 years I have developed additional psychosis that is somehow much worse and completely different... It makes complete sense to me that the drug that I started taking (Olanzapine) is causing this unique psychosis when I try to get off of it. So I was wondering if Olanzapine can be like Cigarettes in that it can cause Psychosis when reduced beyond a certain level or when cold turkeyed. This makes sense to me because Cigarettes can't be reduced beyond a certain level without severe addiction/withdrawal however they can be reduced successfully up to a certain point and have no seeming effect. This is exactly what I've found with Olanzapine. I can reduce it from 20 to 8.65mg without any symptoms at all(i think i can get to 7.5mg). But then when I get to 5 and below all of a sudden unique Psychosis happens that has never happened before in that way for 10 years while getting off and on other drugs(medications). I was on 15mg of Olanzapine for 2.5 years and on 20mg for 1 year and 1 year of reducing from 15mg (I reduced to 3.1mg before I ended up hospitalized with psychosis). So my exposure to Olanzapine has been long term at high doses. Curiously when i started having troubles with olanzapine last year i had started doing a lot of aerobic exercises to start losing weight, i believe this was detoxing my body at a fast rate. 

 

[ChessieCat]

Many members find that the lower their dose gets the slower than need to go, reducing less and/or holding longer.  Please see Post #1 of this topic which has a lot of information as to why this might be the case:

 

Why taper paper: dose-occupancy curves

 

I don't know if you are/were a smoker whilst taking olanzapine.  I found these research papers:

 

Heavy smoking, reduced olanzapine levels, and treatment effects: a case report

 

The effect of variable cigarette consumption on the interaction with clozapine and olanzapine

 

 

[guile2]

Hayduke I need some advice. 

 

I was on 15mg of zyprexa from 2017 to 2020, then 20mg of zyprexa, then 2021 was spent trying to get off of it. I rushed from 15mg for a month to 12.5mg for a month. then 10mg for a month, then 7.5mg for 3 months, then 5mg for 2 months. 

 

I was able to deal with all of the side effects until I made the jump to 5mg. Past the 30th day I started to hear voices and sense communication from outside sources. I also had some other issue which was disrupting. I ignored these issues and continued by reducing to 3.9mg for one month then 3.1mg for 1 month. After about a month of 3.1mg I was hospitalized due to crippling symptoms. They shot me up with a long acting injection of Thorazine (I was wondering if you have been given these long acting injections before). I "stabalized" at the end of May (so it was from mid January to May being hospitalized several times in order to "stabalize"). after 1 month of 10mg it didn't remove my issues, so they gave me 15mg, then 20mg of Zyprexa(Olanzapine). 

 

It might have seemed like a failure, however, my brain is Soo much more functional than it was before reducing last year. 

 

However, the issues I had in 2019 and 2020 when I was on 15mg and 20mg are starting to creep up on me again. Almost complete Amnesia... 

 

So I was able to reduce from 20 to 17.5 and then stayed on 17.5 for 17 days and reduced to 15 for 17 days then to 12.5 for 17 days and then to 10mg for 39 days at which point I jumped to 8.65mg and it has been 23 days. I was so drugged up at 20 I couldn't handle it and felt I needed to reduce at these doses. Nothing bad has happened to me. I am still completely symptom free (or side effect free). 

 

I am able to read unlike before I reduced in 2021, I am able to live in reality instead of a really high drugged up reality before I reduced in 2021, so the medicine hasn't destroyed my brain chemistry yet again. However, I'm noticing increasing concerns, like lack of being able to read as well, but mostly my concern is the past few days i'm having almost complete amnesia again (I can't remember anything from the past). I know this amnesia is from this drug because when I reduced it it got significantly better. 

 

So my plan is to reduce to 7.8 from 8.65 after the 30th day of this 8.65mg and then to reduce to 7.5mg about 10 days after that. 

 

Reading your original story has inspired me to think below 7.5mg as I was going to hang out there for a while. 

 

You said in your post you went from 10 to 7.5mg and then from 7.5mg to 6 and 1/3rd and then 5. You said you did this over the course of one year. 

 

I'm wondering how many months you waited on each dose. And it does seem at the higher doses it can be reduced successfully without any symptoms or side effects. 

 

I believe how long you spaced out your reductions and your Microtaper must be the key to your success. I would really like to talk to you about your microtaper. 

 

I'm glad you're still around.

 

[hayduke]

4 minutes ago, Guile1 said:

Hayduke I need some advice. 

 

I was on 15mg of zyprexa from 2017 to 2020, then 20mg of zyprexa, then 2021 was spent trying to get off of it. I rushed from 15mg for a month to 12.5mg for a month. then 10mg for a month, then 7.5mg for 3 months, then 5mg for 2 months. 

 

I was able to deal with all of the side effects until I made the jump to 5mg. Past the 30th day I started to hear voices and sense communication from outside sources. I also had some other issue which was disrupting. I ignored these issues and continued by reducing to 3.9mg for one month then 3.1mg for 1 month. After about a month of 3.1mg I was hospitalized due to crippling symptoms. They shot me up with a long acting injection of Thorazine (I was wondering if you have been giving these long acting injections before). I "stabalized" at the end of May (so it was from mid January to May being hospitalized several times in order to "stabalize"). after 1 month of 10mg it didn't remove my issues, so they gave me 15mg, then 20mg of Zyprexa(Olanzapine). 

 

It might have seemed like a failure, however, my brain is Soo much more functional than it was before reducing last year. 

 

However, the issues I had in 2019 and 2020 when I was on 15mg and 20mg are starting to creep up on me again. Almost complete Amnesia... 

 

So I was able to reduce from 20 to 17.5 and then stayed on 17.5 for 17 days and reduced to 15 for 17 days then to 12.5 for 17 days and then to 10mg for 39 days at which point I jumped to 8.65mg and it has been 23 days. I was so drugged up at 20 I couldn't handle it and felt I needed to reduce at these doses. Nothing bad has happened to me. I am still completely symptom free (or side effect free). 

 

I am able to read unlike before I reduced in 2021, I am able to live in reality instead of a really high drugged up reality before I reduced in 2021, so the medicine hasn't destroyed my brain chemistry yet again. However, I'm noticing increasing concerns, like lack of being able to read as well, but mostly my concern is the past few days i'm having almost complete amnesia again (I can't remember anything from the past). I know this amnesia is from this drug because when I reduced it it got significantly better. 

 

So my plan is to reduce to 7.8 from 8.65 after the 30th day of this 8.65mg and then to reduce to 7.5mg about 10 days after that. 

 

Reading your original story has inspired me to think below 7.5mg as I was going to hang out there for a while. 

 

You said in your post you went from 10 to 7.5mg and then from 7.5mg to 6 and 1/3rd and then 5. You said you did this over the course of one year. 

 

I'm wondering how many months you waited on each dose. And it does seem at the higher doses it can be reduced successfully without any symptoms or side effects. 

 

I believe how long you spaced out your reductions and your Microtaper must be the key to your success. I would really like to talk to you about your microtaper. 

 

I'm glad you're still around.

 

 

No depot shots.  The shrink often pushed me to, I always refused.

Seriously, I would say why don't you just hang out at 10mg for a while and let things settle.  I don't think more than that does much more suppression of your symptoms.  I was very sleepy and a bit of a drone at 10, but I would say if you were recently forced into psych ward, you really need to get a stable baseline to work with.

 

I had been on 10mg for a fair while before I started fumbling my way down to 5mg.  All I had was a pill cutter, I had not researched tapering.  I don't really remember how long between each jump, but it was months typically.  A case of listening to my body after each cut, making the call to ride it out or whether to revert to the higher dose again if it was heading south.

 

You will need to develop that sense to complete a taper.  It sounds like you are learning not to press on when symptoms flare up.

 

Since you are already below 10mg, but report you are ok besides memory issues, why don't you hold where you are for a while and see how your memory responds.

 

In your shoes I would not be planning excursions below 7.5mg until you are confidently settled there for a while.  Your body would have a lot of catching up to do from those high doses, changes, and the stresses of your hospital admission.

 

[guile2]

20 minutes ago, hayduke said:

 

No depot shots.  The shrink often pushed me to, I always refused.

Seriously, I would say why don't you just hang out at 10mg for a while and let things settle.  I don't think more than that does much more suppression of your symptoms.  I was very sleepy and a bit of a drone at 10, but I would say if you were recently forced into psych ward, you really need to get a stable baseline to work with.

 

I had been on 10mg for a fair while before I started fumbling my way down to 5mg.  All I had was a pill cutter, I had not researched tapering.  I don't really remember how long between each jump, but it was months typically.  A case of listening to my body after each cut, making the call to ride it out or whether to revert to the higher dose again if it was heading south.

 

You will need to develop that sense to complete a taper.  It sounds like you are learning not to press on when symptoms flare up.

 

Since you are already below 10mg, but report you are ok besides memory issues, why don't you hold where you are for a while and see how your memory responds.

 

In your shoes I would not be planning excursions below 7.5mg until you are confidently settled there for a while.  Your body would have a lot of catching up to do from those high doses, changes, and the stresses of your hospital admission.

 

 

 

Yes, that's exactly what I was thinking. Since last year when I reduced from 7.5 to 5 I started hearing voices and other issues I don't even want to talk about. But at 7.5 last year I was doing fine. 

 

My doctor agreed to reduce it to 7.5mg today. 8.65 is still a little too high for me because of the Amnesia kicking in, and I hope the other problems that plagued me for years on higher doses don't start happening again but they probably will if I stay at higher doses. 

 

I believe my "symptoms" are no more than the long acting injection shots that are at lower doses and they're triggering reactions (and also reducing the olanzapine too fast might cause the brain shrinking reaction to have a rebound causing inflamation). These reactions are masked by higher doses of Olanzapine. 

 

It was curious that last year the symptoms didn't start kicking in until I starting doing a lot of aerobic exercise. On the 13th day of walking long distances almost every day (9 miles each day), all of a sudden I started having voices and other problems. I'm not sure if the exercise was pumping the long acting injections into my blood stream and effecting my brain chemistry, or it was just detoxing me from my daily dose of Olanzapine, the reason I was doing the exercise is because it got rid of the side effects and cleared my mind on the 2nd mile of walking, so it's clear I was detoxing my body quickly of Olanzapine... This leads me to believe that the shots in my arm might have been all of a sudden introduced to my brain at higher doses because of the high amount of exercise, Or the Olanzapine was being pumped out of my body by sweating it out and I was getting irregular daily doses because of that. 

 

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I need help on the Microtaper idea. I believe that your success might have been because you Microtapered instead of making a monthly jump. The reason i think this is because Olanzapine shrinks part of the brain and if I make big jumps it might cause a rebound inflamation effect. 

 

----

 

As of today, I successfully use the Gemini scale and Sandpaper I purchased. It is very easy to shave my 30 pills to a desired dose. I believe it is pretty accurate, However, I'm not sure how to do this for the Microtaper since I have to listen to my body to see how much I should reduce it by... this means I can't shave 30 pills at a time it seems and I prefer to do it this way because the Gemini isn't always the same weight when it turns off and on... So somehow I would have to plan out the microtaper and I wouldn't be able to listen to my body... Do you have any ideas on how to successfully microtaper shaving the pills with sandpaper and not liquid taper (liquid taper is too difficult for me to do)?

[guile2]

@hayduke

 

I need help on the microtaper. I need advice on how many Milligrams to reduce and how many days or weeks to wait inbetween reductions. 

[hayduke]

I didn't get on with a micro taper.  I tried it for a few weeks but I never felt settled.  I then used brass monkey's slide taper as a model, which I think is brilliant.

 

You have plenty of time to plan your own taper when you are settled at 7.5mg.  Again, you have to listen to your body and steer your own way down.  No one"s physiology or psyche is interchangeable.

 

I reckon making liquid suspensions is way easier and more accurate than cutting pills.  As I said I went to liquids at 5mg and did not look back.  Others have shared their experiences in the general olanzapine thread.

[guile2]

8 hours ago, hayduke said:

brass monkey's slide taper as a model...You have plenty of time to plan your own taper when you are settled at 7.5mg. 

 

Yes that's true. I am going to stay at 7.5mg for a bit. So you used brassmonkey's slide taper. Can you explain exactly what doses you used for example and for how long before you reduced again? 

 

Quote

I reckon making liquid suspensions is way easier and more accurate than cutting pills

 

I use the Gemini20 to weigh the pill after shaving portions of it off with Sandpaper. Liquid just seems too difficult for me because I would never be sure it had dissolved evenly in the liquid. I also don't want to use liquid because I don't want the drug getting into my system all at the same time.  The sandpaper shaving of the pill... well as an example the 10mg weighs around 417-420 on the scale. I shaved it down to around 360 on every 10mg pill... This gave me approximately 8.65mg... It seems somewhat accurate I think if I can shave 30 pills all at once so I can be sure the scale isn't giving me different readings from turning it off and turning it on. 

[guile2]

On 9/18/2022 at 5:36 AM, hayduke said:

I didn't get on with a micro taper.  I tried it for a few weeks but I never felt settled.  I then used brass monkey's slide taper as a model, which I think is brilliant.

 

You have plenty of time to plan your own taper when you are settled at 7.5mg.  Again, you have to listen to your body and steer your own way down.  No one"s physiology or psyche is interchangeable.

 

I reckon making liquid suspensions is way easier and more accurate than cutting pills.  As I said I went to liquids at 5mg and did not look back.  Others have shared their experiences in the general olanzapine thread.

@hayduke

 

Ok, I have read Brassmonkeys slide taper. He suggests 2.5mg once a week then hold for 2 weeks. Is this what you did?

[hayduke]

On 9/27/2022 at 6:40 PM, Guile1 said:

@hayduke

 

Ok, I have read Brassmonkeys slide taper. He suggests 2.5mg once a week then hold for 2 weeks. Is this what you did?

 

I've written quite a lot about the thinking at each stage of my taper in my intro, then experiments and adjustments as I went along.  But if you don't want to read all the pages of that, and there are a few now, the graph I link to in my signature here will show you how it all worked out.

 

Brass monkey's method is basically 2.5% cut a week for four weeks, then a two week hold.  So you are looking at overall a 10% cut each 6 weeks, rather than our nominal baseline of 10%/mo.   Once I established that baseline made sense for me, I was able to tune it by listening to my body, and considering my circumstances.

I'm starting to feel like I'm repeating myself here, but you will not be able to just copy what other people have done.  I suggest you take time as you stabilise at your present dosage, and do a ton of research with all the info on the site here, do some further reading of books, listen to stuff like Mad In America podcasts maybe, follow your nose.  

It's up to you to plan your way down, and to learn to manage and adapt as you come off.  We can share our experiences with you, but you're in the driver's seat of your own taper.  We can't drive it for you.  Sometimes we see people with a lot of anxiety reaching out to others to validate every step, well we're just people on the internet, we can't really do that for you all the time.  You will find many resources on the site to begin addressing symptoms like anxiety.  I think it was Breggin who wrote that people often find themselves getting entangled in the mental health system when they repeatedly signal helplessness.  If you cannot negotiate that at the moment, you would want to get a handle on it before attempting the added stresses of a taper.

 

Perhaps consider therapy.  I could not have successfully tapered off without doing quite a lot of that.

Plan your taper.  Ask yourself things like:  Who of your social networks (no I am not talking about the internet) will you rely on for feedback when you exhibit difficulties, and how you're going?  What will you do if symptoms become overwhelming?  What support techniques will you rely on?  How will you deal with stressful work and other situations?  Who are your "safe" mental health professionals for support?  Does your GP know about your taper and can they support?  

Those are just a few questions I made sure to have workable answers lined up before I even started coming down below 5mg.  It pays off, because you have a lot less to worry about, and the tapering itself is usually quite difficult enough.

[guile2]

Update: 

 

Last year when I created this topic, I had no idea about the need for tapering. I reduced too fast at the lower doses and ended up bouncing back and forth from the psyche ward for 4.5 months and ended up on 20mg Olanzapine and a long acting injection of Thorazaine. 

 

After these 4.5 months of being on 20mg of olanzapine and a shot of thorazine my "symptoms" or withdrawal symptoms went away.

 

I'm going at about 10% reduction per month now , I just hope that at my current dose I don't end up in the hospital or that my withdrawal symptoms don't get much worse. 

 

I am so happy that people responded to my messages in this thread so levelheadedly. At the time I created the topic and people replied to it I was too drugged up to understand the advice, however, I am less drugged up now and so I can understand just fine  (I reread this thread). 

[FireflyFyte]

I am glad that you settled on a 10% reduction per month. How has that been going for you?

 

I'll start my taper of Olanzapine in February or March and will be using the BrassMonkey slider method.

[guile2]

10 hours ago, FireflyFyte said:

I am glad that you settled on a 10% reduction per month. How has that been going for you?

 

I'll start my taper of Olanzapine in February or March and will be using the BrassMonkey slider method.

 

Im no expert so i just defer to the knowledge on this website. I dont have any advice other than i have found juicing a variety of organic vegetables and a citrus fruit daily when i take my medicine takes away the feeling the next day of being "under the weather". If anyone wants my daily recipe just pm me. (Also eating fresh avocados gets rid of fast thinking for me and brings a sense of peace almost everytime i eat one for some odd reason.) 

 

This is what my fridge looks like today: