ladgma: taper down with Geodon third try

[ladgma]

Greetings, hope this is the right spot for this. I have been a "patient"since I was in college, am 62 next week. Had some suicidal thoughts around 2015 and went to Hope House. Was diagnosed with Bipolar and put on Lithium and Hydroxizine. Things progressed and was put on Geodon, Seroquel and Lorazepam. So I was taking 5 meds and was super unhappy with that, especially as I felt no benefit from all except the Lorazepam which was very helpful for anxiety. I went to a new psych nurse and she said Lorazepam causes dementia, so she took me off CT. Had some rebound anxiety and eventually learned to live with it. Did deep breathing and yoga and tried to reduce my stress level, so came off that. The Lithium I felt was toxic and useless so just decided to go off that. Nobody ever asked why, I just told them I don't take that anymore. No questions as to why. No withdrawal from that.

Now we get to Geodon. I was taken off due to suspected EPS and had a horrible time. Insomnia, migranes, terrible three months, went back on. Two years later talked to doc and he said take one and the next day don't take one(I see this is a common thread) and after a week you will be off. This resulted in terrible insomnia and I couldn't function. I see insomnia talked about but if you really haven't slept the night before how can you function the day after? I can't! 

So I have been researching tapers and there is a lot of good info about it. My first month I made the mistake of doing a 20 mg Geodon and 10 mg the next which I know now does not work. Had terrible insomnia on the nights I did 10 mg so that was a clue!

So I am doing 17.5 mg Geodon now for this month and just got my scale so I can do accurate doses. 

So far on the micotaper I have noticed hot flashes, a little tearfullness, and an increase in some feelings of happiness. 

[Kiasofia]

Greetings ladgma! Welcome to SA. You seem to have learned some important key concepts through experience. It is indeed unwise to take different doses on different days. (I was doing the same until I found this forum.) Going slow and not allowing withdrawal symptoms to get out of hand is important. Are you also taking 50 mg Seroquel now?

 

It would be very helpful for us if you could edit the drug history in your signature to look like this:

 

Example:

2001–2002 paroxetine 
2003  citalopram 
2004  paroxetine
2008  paroxetine slow taper down to 2016 Aug off paroxetine
2016  citalopram May 20mg  Oct slow taper down
2018  citalopram 13 Feb 4.6mg 15 Mar 4.4mg 29 Apr 4.2mg

 

Spell out months (e.g. "January" or "Jan" as 9/1/2016 can be interpreted as 9 Jan 2016 or 1 Sept 2016)

 

Here is more info on Geodon: https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/6136-tips-for-tapering-off-ziprasidone-geodon-zeldox/?tab=comments#comment-84126

 

You can use this thread as your ongoing journal to track progress, write about symptoms, ask questions and communicate with the community, add to it whenever you want.

 

We're glad you found your way here.

 

-Kiasofia

 

Edited October 24, 2021 by Kiasofia

[street129]

On 10/21/2021 at 11:11 PM, ladgma said:

Greetings, hope this is the right spot for this. I have been a "patient"since I was in college, am 62 next week. Had some suicidal thoughts around 2015 and went to Hope House. Was diagnosed with Bipolar and put on Lithium and Hydroxizine. Things progressed and was put on Geodon, Seroquel and Lorazepam. So I was taking 5 meds and was super unhappy with that, especially as I felt no benefit from all except the Lorazepam which was very helpful for anxiety. I went to a new psych nurse and she said Lorazepam causes dementia, so she took me off CT. Had some rebound anxiety and eventually learned to live with it. Did deep breathing and yoga and tried to reduce my stress level, so came off that. The Lithium I felt was toxic and useless so just decided to go off that. Nobody ever asked why, I just told them I don't take that anymore. No questions as to why. No withdrawal from that.

Now we get to Geodon. I was taken off due to suspected EPS and had a horrible time. Insomnia, migranes, terrible three months, went back on. Two years later talked to doc and he said take one and the next day don't take one(I see this is a common thread) and after a week you will be off. This resulted in terrible insomnia and I couldn't function. I see insomnia talked about but if you really haven't slept the night before how can you function the day after? I can't! 

So I have been researching tapers and there is a lot of good info about it. My first month I made the mistake of doing a 20 mg Geodon and 10 mg the next which I know now does not work. Had terrible insomnia on the nights I did 10 mg so that was a clue!

So I am doing 17.5 mg Geodon now for this month and just got my scale so I can do accurate doses. 

So far on the micotaper I have noticed hot flashes, a little tearfullness, and an increase in some feelings of happiness. 

welcome you're in the right place.

 

[ladgma]

I hope I am replying in the correct spot. Thanks for the welcome. 

Yes I am taking 50 mg of Seroquel now. I tried to stop that about two years ago and went down to 25 mg per the doc instructions but was up all night the nights I tried to go down. When I complained about the insomnia she told me to go get some Sleepytime tea. Now I thought that was a little ridiculous that drinking some tea would help all night insomnia and tried it but it didn't help. 

This past month I tried to taper down to 37.5 on the Seroquel but had the insomnia again. Then I read to not taper on two at the same time and leave the sleep med for last so I am just tapering the Geodon for now. 

I got my scale from Amazon so was able to make up some capsules for this week of 17.5 mg of Geodon. I think I did it right. So I am trying to figure out the math with this. 

[Kiasofia]

Yes, this is the correct spot for all questions and updates about your situation

On 10/22/2021 at 5:11 AM, ladgma said:

My first month I made the mistake of doing a 20 mg Geodon and 10 mg the next which I know now does not work.

Was this also in October? Please add the dates to your signature and also add when you tapered the Seroquel to 37.5 mg and when you increased back to 50 mg so we have the information stored. That could also be causing withdrawal symptoms.

 

It could be wise to wait at least 4 weeks before making further changes, to make sure you have stabilized after these changes.

 

Please stay in touch and let us know how you are doing.

[ladgma]

Hi Kiasofia:

Hope you are having a good day. I saw your history congrats on getting off the Lithium. I always felt it was toxic when I took it. 

So I was planning on doing another taper to 15.75 mg after 28 days of 17.5mg on the Geodon. Would you think that advisable or should I hold I bit longer?

I have stopped the Hydroxizine this month but its an antihistamine and I haven't felt anything from stopping that. I think it's more like a Benadryl than anything else.

Oh yeah and it's my birthday and I had a great day of ladies bible study and my husband made steak! Good times!

[Kiasofia]

Happy birthday:) You sound like you are doing well?

 

I'm so relieved to be off lithium, it made me very thirsty and I'm sure my kidneys were working very hard the year I was on it! I'm glad you made it off safely too.

 

How many days did you use to microtaper from 20mg to 17.5? (Or was that a cut, not a microtaper?)

 

As you've probably read there are many ways to do a microtaper. This method https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/17671-the-brassmonkey-slide-method-of-micro-tapering/ uses a 14 day hold for instance, but for starting out I think holding for 28 days at the same dose is a good idea to watch out for withdrawal symptoms. So I'd start with that, and then you can adjust once you know your pattern. Listen to your body and try to get a sense of how long it takes for withdrawal symptoms to come. Usually they come within 4 weeks, but it can be good to do a longer hold now and then just to make sure. The most important is that you feel stable and ready for further reductions, when you make them.

[ladgma]

Hi Kia!

 

Hope your day is going well. 

I went from 20mg Geodon to 17.5mg(approx) on October 9th. So at the current time this is just an estimate as I am opening the capsules and using a credit card to split up the doses, so it is likely it is not very accurate. I did get a scale but I am having trouble using it. I did watch a video on this site and I still don't understand how to use the scale. Having trouble with that. Would like to resolve it before the next step down to the lower dose. 

 

[ChessieCat]

If the following things aren't what you need help with, please post your question/s in SA's topic:

 

using-a-scale-to-weigh-and-measure-doses

 

This post explains how about reading if that is what you are having difficulty with:

 

 

I did a search "tare".  These are the results for that search.  Check out the posts by Brassmonkey:

 

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/search/?q=tare&quick=1&type=forums_topic&item=1596

[Kiasofia]

Hi @ladgma

I'm enjoying a nice autumn day

 

Just a tip: if you write @ and then start typing a username you "tag" the person so they are notified about your post. I'm following this thread, but somehow missed your post all the same...

 

I'm afraid I haven't used scales. I've been learning how to make a liquid for when the day comes that I'm ready to taper more. But there are plenty of people in the group who use scales of course and you can ask general "how-to" questions in the link ChessieCat left.

 

Which tapering method will you use for the next reduction? The "no more than 10% dosage reduction every 4 weeks" method or the microtaper method of making smaller % cuts more frequently?

 

Here are links to the different tapering methods:

Why taper by 10% of my dosage?

Micro-taper instead of 10% or 5% decreases

The Brassmonkey Slide Method of Micro-tapering

 

[ladgma]

Hello @Kiasofia

Hope your day is going good! Thank you for your answer. 

On Nov 7th I am planning on making a 10% reduction that will be four weeks. This will bring me down to 16mg. Geodon. 

I had some pretty bad insomnia last week which has been a lifelong thing so I don't know if it is related to the reduction of the Geodon or just where I am at now. I did have some stress during the week-work stuff so it may have been that. I took Wed off due to lack of sleep. 

I am hoping this week is better. 

[Kiasofia]

Hi @ladgma

Sorry sleep is (and has been) a problem for you. We have a discussion thread about it here if you're interested: Tips to help sleep -- so many of us have that awful withdrawal insomnia.

 

Note that some people will need to reduce by less than 10% each time so listen to your body and make adjustments, if needed. Usually it gets harder at the lower doses.

 

I found this interesting to read to understand why that is the case:

Why taper? SERT transporter occupancy studies show importance of gradual change in plasma concentration

 

Do keep us posted how you are doing!

[ladgma]

Hi @Kiasofia

How's your week? 

I've had a lot of insomnia and anxiety this week. Had to get some dental work done and had some "dental anxiety" that I am sure is common with everyone!

I have mainly been staying to myself in my office, reading on this website, and running my house and trying to be kind to my husband even though I don't feel well. When I complained about withdrawal he said, "Well you willingly subjected yourself to that form of treatment". Which is not helpful. I feel like I'm all by myself trying to deal with withdrawal and trying to keep working, running the house, fixing meals, cleaning, supporting my daughter who has Covid. 

Am greatful to have a place to come and talk about this!

[Kiasofia]

Hi @ladgma

Sorry you are struggling with anxiety and insomnia. These are very common withdrawal symptoms. Can you add the following to your signature:

 

- the date in September you started doing every other day 10mg/20mg

- the date in October you started 17.5mg

 

It might be helpful to do a small increase in dosage. I will ask a more experienced moderator to weigh in on what dose this should be, so please wait until you hear back from us before considering making a change.

 

How was your sleep before you started tapering? What about anxiety?

 

Like me, you started out with tapering by skipping doses, and this can make the central nervous system (CNS) more sensitive. The decrease to 17.5 mg may have been too big a reduction.

 

Some people do better making smaller cuts more frequently, than larger cuts monthly. Have you looked into this method of tapering:

The Brassmonkey Slide Method of Micro-tapering

 

It's an alternative to the method of daily microtapering that some find tedious:

Micro-taper instead of 10% or 5% decreases

 

I'm sorry your not getting more support, but so glad your a part of this group! For me it helps so much to know we are not alone in this. There is support and also knowledge to be found!  Is it your decision to taper that is being criticized or going on the drugs in the first place? Hope your daughter is ok? Considering everything, I would delay any further decreases until your daughter is well and withdrawal symptoms settle down.

[ladgma]

Hi @Kiasofia

I actually slept very well last night. Thank you for your answer. I added the info to the sig.

The sleep has not been good since I started recording in September. Before I started messing with the doses sleep was pretty good, maybe one night severe insomnia, one or two nights per week sleeping 4-6 hours the rest 8 hours. Since changing the doses I sleep 6-8 hours two days per week, sleep 3-4 hours three or four days per week, and severe insomnia the other day or two-like 0 sleep. 

The anxiety is generally related to worrying about medical tests and dental appointments. I had cancer so I have an anxiety response to medical things. My doctor wants more blood tests and I don't feel they are necessary so he is bugging me about that. 

Some of my family thinks I should not mess with the meds because I have a "chemical imbalance" to fix, what a joke! 

[Kiasofia]

31 minutes ago, ladgma said:

Some of my family thinks I should not mess with the meds because I have a "chemical imbalance" to fix, what a joke! 

This is very common. I was wondering if that was what the lack of support was about. I can identify! When you have the time and energy I recommend reading Anatomy of an epidemic and/or A straight talking introduction to psychiatric drugs. At least for me they have helped me make sense of what I have gone through and how misguided the current way of understanding and treating mental illness is.

 

Great that you slept well last night at least!

[Kiasofia]

Could you also add the date you started reducing Seroquel and the date you went back to 50mg?

 

 

[ladgma]

Hi @Kiasofia

So I made the reduction to 16mg on Sunday and while insomnia is a problem I have been reading some really great ways to deal with that on this forum. Learning to rest even if you are not sleeping, trying to breathe. I am learning that on the days I have slept I go to yoga, grocery shop, things like that. I have noticed an improvement in my mood. I am cracking jokes with my husband and made a nice dinner.

I know these are small things but I think it shows progress. I think that just feeling like you are reducing on something that doesn't benefit you and you are nothing more than a $350 15 minute appointment and you are part of a big psychiatry machine and you are working on getting out of that lifts the mood. 

Best wishes to you as you go on your week. 

[Kiasofia]

Thank you @ladgma I'm glad your finding sleep help here and that your in good spirits at the moment.

 

Thanks for updating your signature and keep checking in😊

[ladgma]

@Kiasofia

Hi Kia. Just checking in. 

Started the Mag citrate at 50mg, Melatonin at 1mg Monday and have slept good all week. Got a free insomnia coach which has been helpful also I wasn't sure if it was ok to post his name here as it may help others.

I figured out how to use the scale and just made up my weeks worth of 16mg of Geodon. 

Had a great week. 

Hope you are taking time out for yourself, I see you are pretty busy here!

Take care and have a good week. 

[Ktven48]

What is your insomnia coaches name?

[Kiasofia]

Thanks for checking in! I'm so happy to hear you have slept well and are getting good help. It is fine to post the name of the insomnia coach. I see others are interested. Congratulations on figuring out the scale. The forum is very busy, but I think I'm managing to balance my time on the forum and away from it. I'm still in a "window" (or have stabilized..) so for the time being I have the energy for it. Wishing you a good week too😊

[ladgma]

@Ktven48For those interested the insomnia coach is Martin Reed. His email is martin@insomniacoach.com. He has free information on how to make insomnia better. 

Best of luck with the insomnia. It can really make life difficult, if not impossible at times. 

[Felix]

@ladgmaHi, nice to see you are OK at 16 MG geodon and have improvement on your sleep. Best wishes for you.

[Felix]

@ladgmaHi, can I ask a question? Do you take geodon one time at night? if yes, did you experience interdose withdrawal?

[ladgma]

Hello @Felix:

I take it with supper as I take it with food. Just one capsule. I don't have interdose withdrawal. When do you take yours?

[Felix]

@ladgmaHi, I take it at 9:00 PM night with some food. Every day about 7:00 PM, I start to feel some uncomfortable. So, I am wondering is it the interdose withdrawal

[ladgma]

@FelixI would ask chessie about that, I'm not that familiar with interdose withdrawal. Have a good night. 

[kml34524]

Very happy to finally meet someone who it tapering off of Geodon.  Starting in May of 2020 I started using a compounding pharmancy to taper off of the 20 mg capsule I had been taking every night for 15 years.

 

In 12 months I was able to get down to 4 mg but then started focusing on my benzo taper which has occupied my time since then but there is no doubt in my mind the drug I really really want to be don with is Geodon.

 

I've gotten down to 6mg of Diazepam and really want to hold that and focus on Geodon again but it has been so hard expeically because ( before I knew anything about going really slow ) I feel I've tried to be done with Geodon at least 6 or 7 times over a 4 year period.

 

I'll be in touch.  I just don't have much ability to stay on the computer these days but I'll be back.

 

Thanks,

 

 

[ladgma]

Hello! @kml34524:

It's great to hear from someone else who is trying to get off Geodon. 

I've tried to be done with Geodon twice before, so I am glad I found all the advice on here on tapering and it's nice to have a community where we can meet others. That's great you got down to 4mg of Geodon it's going to be a while until I get that low. 

Did you have any side effects with your taper?

[kml34524]

A few years back I didn’t know that you had to go slow and of course my doctor told me that I was on a sub clinical dose and I could just stop whenever I wanted to.

 

When I try to just stop I would typically sleep about half the number of hours that I normally sleep but my mood would be a little elevated for two or three days. And then what about the one week mark I would start to feel some serious derealization Like a feeling that when I was observing in my life I just wasn’t connected to it like I saw it but I wasn’t connected to it and then as my wife can testify to become a realtor and if I keep going out about the 10 day mark I go into it really really scary depression.

 

I must’ve tried that method probably five or six times and every time I had to go back on and every time then I’m within a day my depression was gone and I was feeling okay again.

 

But when I went slow, very slow, I didn’t have that kind of symptomatology. I could feel an extra level of agitation but since I was going slow, I kind of just dealt with it.

 

The one thing I would note of importance is I do feel like I have intrados withdrawal at this point with a Geodon, I just start to feel really horrible in the late afternoon. It’s hard to describe the bad feeling in the afternoons because it’s not emotional it’s more physical I just start to feel a little achy a little rundown and eventually I take my Geodon go to bed and start cycle again the next day.

[ladgma]

@kml34524Yeah I've heard that crap about sub clinical and being lower than a therapeutic dose and that shouldn't cause any problems withdrawing from. But we know that is not the case. 

Depression can be scary I agree with you. 

You should check with one of the mods about interdose withdrawal. 

I'm glad you checked in it was good to hear from you and hope to hear from you soon. Take care. 

[ladgma]

Hey @Kiasofia

I just thought I would post an update. I have decided to do a weekly taper and that is going well. I do have some withdrawal with ear ringing and a weird stomach that feels like it is burning from the inside at times. Other than that I am doing yoga classes and have found a free mindlfulness based stress reduction course I am going to start. A big part of this for me is to learn to cope with things that led me to meds in the first place, so it almost feels like a new awakening to realize that I can do that. It may be that less meds are making me feel more competent or realizing that there is a lot I can do to control my anxiety and be kind to myself. 

I have found that doing a body scan lying in bed before sleep in a dark room with a candle is very restful. My insomnia is much better. 

I have found out a lot of good information about how to make sleep better on this site and links that have been provided. 

I hope you are well. 

[Kiasofia]

Good to hear from you @ladgma I've been in a minor wave. Much lower energy and less optimism, but it seems to be fading now. It's that time of year too. So I look forward to the days getting longer again.

 

Are you using this method perhaps?: The Brassmonkey Slide Method of Micro-tapering 

 

It sounds like you are doing many good things for yourself. I also get help from yoga, and a body scan before sleep. Maybe I'll add in a candle! I'm sure getting to lower doses of a mind numbing and sedating drug is helpful.

 

The sad irony of people being given drugs to help them cope, but then the drugs make it harder to cope. In trials where one group is given only exercise as treatment for depression and another is given medication+exercise, it is the unmedicated group that improves the most. It is no mystery, considering the drugs make people sluggish and they will benefit less from the exercise.

 

I'm so glad to hear you are able to do these things now. Take care❤️

[ladgma]

Hey @Kiasofia:

I hope the wave was short. 

I think we both live in cold environments and I don't know about you but it's harder to get out in nature when it's below zero!

I look forward to the days getting longer also. We did a lovely yoga practice for the change in season. 

I am using the taper.co to reduce the doses and so far things have been manageable. 

 

Well take care!

 

 

 

[ladgma]

@Kiasofia

Greetings. I just wanted to post on my progress. I hope things are going well for you. 

I haven't been able to find anyone here that is tapering off Geodon, and that is what I am focusing on. So if there is anyone out there contact me!

I have found a few members taking it but I don't think they are tapering. 

So I have decided to taper at 3.5% per week using taperoffco. That has been going well with no physical effects or problems. 

I am meditating daily with meditate together, that is a short 15 minute practice followed by a sharing with no pressure to share. I have been getting a lot out of it and there is no cost to join. I encourage others to try it, it is a short zoom meeting.

Also my Yoga practice twice a week and body scan meditation and sitting meditation through my MBSR course.

I can give info on the free MBSR course if anyone is interested. 

I have more anxiety since the taper but I am trying to manage it with calming activities and trying to not getting overstimulated. I got a diffuser and have been using essential oils and doing a lot of reading and resting. 

I work on a crisis hotline so that can be stressful so the meditation is helping with that. 

Medicating Normal was on PBS and I asked my husband to watch with me, as I had seen it once. I think it really helped him understand a lot. If anyone has family/spouse who is struggling with understanding WD I would highly recommend trying to watch it with them. It has helped him to understand the way we have trusted doctors to help us and it has not helped, but made things a lot worse.

It opened up a discussion where I was able to share a little of my tapering journey but not a lot as to overwhelm him. But it is a step forward. 

Well take care!