Knosretep: don't know what to do - clonazepam and Zoloft and extras

[Knosretep]

Small update:

 

The wave was very short lived, thankfully.  I'm back to tapering 1mg pill weight every 3 days, and I could feel the effect after the first 1mg drop.  Poor sleep, slowly increasing aka, depression creeping in, disassociation, cough, tension headache.  I will get down to 140mg pill weight and then hold again.  That will be about 10% in 2 months.  Not ideal, but at least its progress.  I've been filing along the side of the pill when really I should file from the top or the bottom as I've learned that the distribution of active ingredient should be even across the score line, but otherwise all bets are off.

 

I've also started slowly switching over to generic Sertraline, which I will do over the course of 14 weeks.  Its less than 1/3 the cost of Pfizer, and since I'm already feeling like crap from tapering I figure any difference between the two will hardly be noticeable.

 

Next week will be 1 year since I CT'd Venlafaxine.  I think if I hadn't cut 50% Clonazepam in Sept and started tapering the remaining, I would be doing relatively well now.

 

That is all, hope everyone else is doing well and enjoying lovely windows. 🙂

[Onmyway]

This is good news @Knosretep,

I think switching to generic can come with its challenges so when you're doing that, be careful not to make other changes. Bioavailability of generics can differ even if the ingredient is the same (except fillers and excipients). Shouldn't be too much of a difference but possible it could be sufficient given how sensitive we are. 

 

omw

Edited May 11, 2022 by Onmyway

[Knosretep]

Today marks 1 year since I took my last dose of Venlafaxine.  Where am I being 1 year off of Venlafaxine?  It's hard to know what symptoms are being caused by what since I also made a 50% cut to Clonazepam in Sept, and I'm still on a bunch of drugs that could be affecting me.

 

-------------------------------------------------

 

Anxiety: pretty tolerable during the morning and afternoon now, but sometimes shows up around 10pm for a brief period at a pretty high intensity.

 

Sleep: still takes a while to fall asleep many nights, and I still wake up middle of the night and have to take 2nd Mirtazapine dose.  Sleep quality is pretty variable.

 

Morning Cortisol: some days its so difficult to get out of bed, other days when I have something fun planned or managed to sleep a little better its a bit easier.

 

Burning legs: this comes and goes thorough the day and can be quite severe at times.  Usually shows up pretty strongly at night and a cold shower only briefly causes it to subside, and then it returns and lasts until I go to sleep, which can make falling asleep more difficult.

 

Headache: nearly gone, only shows up at night briefly now.

 

Diarhea: still happens occasionally but isn't nearly as watery, and I no longer take a probiotic.

 

Muscle Twitching: this still happens in my legs as I'm trying to sleep, but hasn't happened around my eye in a while, which is the only place it really bugs me.

 

Fatigue: occasionally I'll get a day or two every few weeks where I get terrible fatigue and can barely get off the couch.

 

Depression: this had been lifting as I've gotten better, but recent attempts to taper the Clonazepam totally spike this, and the difficulty that I've been having tapering has elevated this baseline back up.

 

Akathisia: this is still pretty rare thankfully and not too bad when it happens.

 

DR: when I have been tapering Clonazepam I've started getting this again where I feel like I'm not in my body and its pretty uncomfortable.  I also have moments where I totally zone out and I don't even know what I've been thinking about when my mind returns.  Feels like it could be 5 seconds or 5 minutes.

 

Tinnitus: seems to only come on before I'm about to shower, and then lingers for 10-15 minutes after I'm done.

 

OCD Thoughts / Intrusives: still get intrusive thoughts often, and parts of songs stuck in my head.

 

Anhedonia: not quite 100% all the time now, more nightly windows.

 

-------------------------------------------------

 

I only made it down to 143mg pill weight of Clonazepam before symptoms got too much and I've been holding since.    I will wait a few more days and then try a 3mg pill weight drop instead of a slow, daily micro taper to see how that feels, and if that is more tolerable then I'll try a 5mg drop once I stabilize. 

 

The difficulty that I've been having tapering this is really demoralizing.  I don't know that the Venlafaxine WD is affecting it, because the symptoms when I taper all appear in the evenings when the past year most of my symptoms have been the strongest in the afternoon and let up in evening windows.  The thought of basically always being in near acute WD from constant drops or micro tapers for the next X years of my life is so distressing because the tapering causes me extreme depression as a main symptom.

 

Part of me wants to just go to like a weekly 1mg pill weight reduction, but that would take over 2.5 years to get off just 1 drug even if I could maintain that rate.

 

Thanks for reading me.  I hope you're doing well enjoying a nice window! 🙂

 

 

[OldDodgy]

@Knosretep

 

I do hope some of these symptoms abate for you. 
 

I can’t comment on your reduction regimen of course. 
 

I think some of us suffer after withdrawal from something akin to Chronic Fatigue. 
 

Can you score those symptoms out of ten and see if the score improves over the next 4 weeks. ? 

 

Wishing you relief. 
 
OD 
 

 

[Knosretep]

46 minutes ago, OldDodgy said:

@Knosretep

 

I do hope some of these symptoms abate for you. 
 

I can’t comment on your reduction regimen of course. 
 

I think some of us suffer after withdrawal from something akin to Chronic Fatigue. 
 

Can you score those symptoms out of ten and see if the score improves over the next 4 weeks. ? 

 

Wishing you relief. 
 
OD 

 

Hi @OldDodgy

 

Thanks for stopping by and for the well wishes.

 

I track all my symptoms in a big spreadsheet and I've been following a downward trendline, so if I don't make any changes I would expect to continue in that trajectory, but if I want to make any substantial progress getting off these drugs then I'm going to have to subject myself to some added symptoms.  So far I've still been on the trend despite my tapering because I've been going so timidly.

 

[Onmyway]

@Knosretep

Congrats on a whole year off of venlafaxine! A great milestone!!! I also see how many of the symptoms have greatly improved.

 

It feels demoralizing for the tapers to be so slow and symptomatic but remember that withdrawal is constantly changing from windows and waves to a variation of symptoms that come and go and change and transform and revisit again. It won't always feel like this. Remember your own experience with the GI issues that have now gone. Withdrawal really challenges our sense of trust in things because it's so fickle but sometimes that's a good thing. 

 

Part of your depression may actually be from the Clonazepam. I found that drug evil - it would make me profoundly depressed and nauseous, dark dark thoughts. As you come down on your dose the depression might go away. Also, is this depressed feeling the result of being disappointed that this is a very slow process or part of the chemical effects of the withdrawal? 

 

How are you addressing the depression? I've found therapy to be helpful in withdrawal (I'm doing IFS  which so far I like, found CBT helpful in the beginning of withdrawal as well). Would it help to reach out for help? IFS and CBT you can do yourself as well, let me know if you want resources.

 

Please take care of yourself, this is a difficult journey, you've been doing a good job with the careful taper and I can see the results in improved symptoms in your reports.

[Greatful]

@Knosretep

 

The thought of basically always being in near acute WD from constant drops or micro tapers for the next X years of my life is so distressing 

 

From a fellow poly drugged victim--this too makes me mad-scared and overwhelmed at times--how in the world did we get to this😓 It makes it so hard to know what is causing what--can the drugs be the problem-  sadly--we don't how  the effects of these drugs have on us and  when you take them together--Crazy how they are suppose to be the magic pills--but somehow they don't work so we just add another one UGH---So now you, I and countless others will be dealing with near acute WD and possible adverse drug reactions from one or all the drugs--especially when in a combo. for awhile..  but I guess we can reframe this and tell ourselves there is a great possibility that as we get some of the toxins out of our systems we will feel better- and the WD will get easier🙃

 

You talk about the depression--ugh that's a big worry for me also every time I cut---It can be so crippling at times--I  noticed it not being so intense with the last drop--maybe yours will get less intense as you go down on the drugs--always a guessing game--what is causing what LOL

 

Oh my gosh- yes - the ocd and obsessing thoughts are the worst- I think  if I didn't have the depression or ocd/obsessing thought I could deal with this better.. I know they are just thoughts but they can be relentless and cause panic...Hey-- is this the WD or the drugs causing it🙄--My hubby thinks it's the drugs--he said when I started the Lexapro it blew up my brain--But I guess it could be both WD and the drugs---

 

Your attitude and perseverance are encouraging--If we all lean on each other we can do this😊 

 

[Knosretep]

21 hours ago, Onmyway said:

@Knosretep

Congrats on a whole year off of venlafaxine! A great milestone!!! I also see how many of the symptoms have greatly improved.

 

@Onmyway Thank you for the congratulations, and thank you so much for all your amazing support and encouragement since I got here.  Its amazing you're able to be there for so many of us, despite the unfortunate and sometimes terrible things happening in your own life.  I really do appreciate you, and I'm so glad you're here. ❤️

 

21 hours ago, Onmyway said:

It feels demoralizing for the tapers to be so slow and symptomatic but remember that withdrawal is constantly changing from windows and waves to a variation of symptoms that come and go and change and transform and revisit again. It won't always feel like this. Remember your own experience with the GI issues that have now gone. Withdrawal really challenges our sense of trust in things because it's so fickle but sometimes that's a good thing. 

 

Part of your depression may actually be from the Clonazepam. I found that drug evil - it would make me profoundly depressed and nauseous, dark dark thoughts. As you come down on your dose the depression might go away. Also, is this depressed feeling the result of being disappointed that this is a very slow process or part of the chemical effects of the withdrawal? 

 

Yes, I understand that Clonazepam can end up causing anxiety and depression when taken too long, and for some that is less than the time that I've been using.  Both the result of being disappointed in the slowness of the process, and the chemical effects of the withdrawal are adding to the depression. 

 

I can feel a 1mg pill weight cut from each of my morning and night doses (0.7% total dose) and its enough to throw off my sleep such that I can't really get any work done the next day, and get a spike of depression in the evening.  I don't know exactly how long this lasts at this point, but I know that 3 days is not enough time to stabilize.  I'm guessing a more tolerable number is around 6 days, which would take me 2.35 years to jump off, assuming I could continue at that pace, which I surely wouldn't be able to as I got down in dosage.

 

There are a number of other things going on in my life that are adding to my depression, but the above is definitely a big one.  I keep looking into a crossover to Diazepam as I've heard from numerous people on the benzorecovery reddit that they had an easier time tapering Diazepam after trying others.  There's no guarantee it would be any easier, but I know I can at least tolerate Diazepam, and Heather Ashton switched all her patients to Diazepam so there's definitely something there.

 

21 hours ago, Onmyway said:

How are you addressing the depression? I've found therapy to be helpful in withdrawal (I'm doing IFS  which so far I like, found CBT helpful in the beginning of withdrawal as well). Would it help to reach out for help? IFS and CBT you can do yourself as well, let me know if you want resources.

 

I'm trying to keep in mind this although this could take quite a number of years, it is temporary, and I will hopefully be getting a higher baseline as I continue to heal from the Venlafaxine.  If I don't taper too fast, the depression doesn't build up so much that I can't "change the channel" when negative thoughts come up, but if there's a particularly stressful situation then I become overwhelmed and breakdown crying.

 

I did reach out for help in Oct and had 2 therapy sessions with a woman who I did not like, and after the 2nd session the placement agency never emailed me about making another appointment, and I thought that was incredibly unprofessional even though I didn't want to see her anymore anyways.  That agency had a few other therapists but that incident gave me a bad feeling about the whole thing.  

 

I saw another independent guy a few weeks later who was really good and who I felt like I could connect with, but at the end of the first session (which was basically just him collecting background information about my history, etc) he said that he didn't think the drugs that I was on were anything crazy, but that he would want to make some changes.  That scared me as I didn't want to add anything more, and I told him his saying that gave me a surge of anxiety.  He told me he had a feeling because I'm on the internet and doing my own research, that he feared that I would sabotage progress at some point and wanted to warn me of that if we were to continue together.  I thanked him for being open about that, and we decided that I could reach out when/if I felt comfortable starting sessions.  A few weeks later he "accidentally" called me, but did not ask about starting sessions.  I feel like I could benefit from sessions with him as long as he didn't try to dictate my drug intake and force me to make changes, but it seemed like he thought he knew what was best for me to be on (I suspect some sort of anti-psychotic) when I just want off all these drugs.  I would rather save my money anyways as sessions are quite expensive since I have no insurance.

 

My brother has been pretty helpful to talk to about the other issues adding to my depression, but I try not to lean on him too much anymore because I feel he's getting tired of hearing the same things over and over and now just keeps repeating that I need to get off all these drugs yesterday, but he has no idea how bad detox facilities are.  If detox centers worked as well as he thinks they do, there wouldn't be a survivingantidepressants.org.

 

I've also been using a CBT app called Woebot which is pretty basic, but if you have some good resources for self directed IFS/CBT courses that would be great.

 

21 hours ago, Onmyway said:

Please take care of yourself, this is a difficult journey, you've been doing a good job with the careful taper and I can see the results in improved symptoms in your reports.

 

This is indeed incredibly difficult, and I thank you again.

 

Edited May 18, 2022 by Knosretep
spacing

[Knosretep]

On 5/17/2022 at 11:13 PM, Greatful said:

You talk about the depression--ugh that's a big worry for me also every time I cut---It can be so crippling at times--I  noticed it not being so intense with the last drop--maybe yours will get less intense as you go down on the drugs--always a guessing game--what is causing what LOL

 

 Hey @Greatful

 

Yes, this is really what I'm hoping, that as time goes by and I continue healing from Venlafaxine, and getting lower and lower on Clonazepam, that I'll feel less WD and hopefully be able to speed up the taper.  Its great that you're already seeing some of this yourself with your Lexapro dose! 💪 

 

On 5/17/2022 at 11:13 PM, Greatful said:

Oh my gosh- yes - the ocd and obsessing thoughts are the worst- I think  if I didn't have the depression or ocd/obsessing thought I could deal with this better.. I know they are just thoughts but they can be relentless and cause panic...Hey-- is this the WD or the drugs causing it🙄--My hubby thinks it's the drugs--he said when I started the Lexapro it blew up my brain--But I guess it could be both WD and the drugs---

 

The mental symptoms are definitely the worst.  The physical symptoms would also be easier to deal with without the mental symptoms sapping our will and fortitude to bear them.

 

On 5/17/2022 at 11:13 PM, Greatful said:

Your attitude and perseverance are encouraging--If we all lean on each other we can do this😊 

 

 

Yes we can!  Thanks for stopping by to support.  I hope you're doing better and will be able to do another cut soon! ❤️

 

[Onmyway]

On 5/17/2022 at 11:43 PM, Knosretep said:

Yes, I understand that Clonazepam can end up causing anxiety and depression when taken too long, and for some that is less than the time that I've been using.  Both the result of being disappointed in the slowness of the process, and the chemical effects of the withdrawal are adding to the depression. 

Hi @Knosretep, 

I wanted to clarify something - 

I think you are talking about depression as the result of reaching tolerance to clonazepam and I am talking about side-effects of taking the drug. I'm not trying to be pedantic but the reason why I want to clarify this is that if the depression is a side-effect of clonazepam in your case (which I believe that it is), then as you get lower on your dosage it will abate. 

 

For therapy books I like to read the manuals that the therapists read especially for those that have protocols etc. I really liked this one on CBT. CBT is a top down approach - it uses your rational self to deal with issues. CBT has a few layers though - the first one is your thoughts and the second one is the beliefs with which you adopted as you grew up. That is not the stuff you see on apps or worksheets, this book, as far as I remember, touches on that a bit. 

• Beck, J. S. (2011). Cognitive behavior therapy: Basics and beyond. 2nd ed. New York: Guilford

IFS is different, it helps deal with trauma and the deeper stuff above. 

It is a strange way of looking at the mind (so may not mesh with how you conceptualize things) but basically it assumes that the human psyche/mind is a collection of an indefinite number of parts as in 'a part of me is scared of losing you' but 'a part of me wants to run away', a third part is mad that I am getting into this relationship etc. Moreover, it thinks of these as forming a family system with specific roles (protectors/exiles/firefighters) led by the Self. Some of these parts are stuck in extreme roles. As you work with different parts you can heal them. It sounds hokey when I describe it like that but actually works! 

Here is a good brief description. 

https://www.derekscott.co/rs/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Exploring-Your-Own-System.pdf

and this is more in depth

https://cls.unc.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/3019/2020/03/Handouts-for-IFS.pdf

 

This is the book that I like about IFS - most of the book is covered in the second link on IFS above but it has more depth. 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1572302720/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_bibl_vppi_i9

 

There is also a skills training manual that is quite useful that I can link if this at all feels ok. 

If done well it is a non-pathologizing therapy although there is a doctor who has joined the group of 'leaders' of this that gaslights people on medicine side effects etc. and keeps pushing meds with IFS. But the method itself does not depend on him. He's just an intrusion. 

 

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/25290-internal-family-systems-therapy-anyone-have-experience/#comment-554124

 

Regarding therapists, it can be hard to find the right one. Some of them are brainwashed about meds - I had one that was really really good but she kept pushing meds despite me saying that I was withdrawing from them. I dumped her. Try some of these books and see if you can relate. Sometimes self therapy can get you far. 

 

I know what you mean about family members not understanding. One of mine researched withdrawal facilities - it was very sweet and well meant but misinformed. Sometimes they push us to go faster because it's hard for them to see how much we are suffering. 

 

 

[Knosretep]

On 5/20/2022 at 2:20 AM, Onmyway said:

Hi @Knosretep, 

I wanted to clarify something - 

I think you are talking about depression as the result of reaching tolerance to clonazepam and I am talking about side-effects of taking the drug. I'm not trying to be pedantic but the reason why I want to clarify this is that if the depression is a side-effect of clonazepam in your case (which I believe that it is), then as you get lower on your dosage it will abate. 

 

Hi @Onmyway

 

Sorry to take so long in replying.  I went to respond the same day you wrote this, but I started thinking about my depression and was unable to "change the channel" and ended up in a depression spiral that totally wiped me out.  I'm feeling better now.

 

I hope the depression is as much caused by a side-effect of the Clonazepam as you believe, and will get lower as my dosage lowers.

 

On 5/20/2022 at 2:20 AM, Onmyway said:

For therapy books I like to read the manuals that the therapists read especially for those that have protocols etc. I really liked this one on CBT. CBT is a top down approach - it uses your rational self to deal with issues. CBT has a few layers though - the first one is your thoughts and the second one is the beliefs with which you adopted as you grew up. That is not the stuff you see on apps or worksheets, this book, as far as I remember, touches on that a bit. 

• Beck, J. S. (2011). Cognitive behavior therapy: Basics and beyond. 2nd ed. New York: Guilford

 

This looks great, but sadly it doesn't look like I can get it here as there doesn't appear to be any digital version available and I can't select Thailand as a location where the book is available.  I guess I could have my family buy it in the US and send it, but I'll try and find some other CBT book first in digital version because shipping something like a book would cost multitudes the price of the book.

 

On 5/20/2022 at 2:20 AM, Onmyway said:

IFS is different, it helps deal with trauma and the deeper stuff above. 

It is a strange way of looking at the mind (so may not mesh with how you conceptualize things) but basically it assumes that the human psyche/mind is a collection of an indefinite number of parts as in 'a part of me is scared of losing you' but 'a part of me wants to run away', a third part is mad that I am getting into this relationship etc. Moreover, it thinks of these as forming a family system with specific roles (protectors/exiles/firefighters) led by the Self. Some of these parts are stuck in extreme roles. As you work with different parts you can heal them. It sounds hokey when I describe it like that but actually works! 

Here is a good brief description. 

https://www.derekscott.co/rs/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Exploring-Your-Own-System.pdf

and this is more in depth

https://cls.unc.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/3019/2020/03/Handouts-for-IFS.pdf

 

This is the book that I like about IFS - most of the book is covered in the second link on IFS above but it has more depth. 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1572302720/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_bibl_vppi_i9

 

There is also a skills training manual that is quite useful that I can link if this at all feels ok. 

If done well it is a non-pathologizing therapy although there is a doctor who has joined the group of 'leaders' of this that gaslights people on medicine side effects etc. and keeps pushing meds with IFS. But the method itself does not depend on him. He's just an intrusion. 

 

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/25290-internal-family-systems-therapy-anyone-have-experience/#comment-554124

 

I gave the first 2 PDFs a read through and it really didn't speak to me.  I feel like my depression is more situational, or external, instead of being caused by some internal conflict of varying parts of me.  I can see how one would be in turmoil as a result of some past trauma, but I don't feel like there are disjointed pieces of me because of withdrawal or some other past event.

 

On 5/20/2022 at 2:20 AM, Onmyway said:

Regarding therapists, it can be hard to find the right one. Some of them are brainwashed about meds - I had one that was really really good but she kept pushing meds despite me saying that I was withdrawing from them. I dumped her. Try some of these books and see if you can relate. Sometimes self therapy can get you far. 

 

Yeah, that's too bad.  I'll look for digital versions of some other CBT books because I feel like that's most appropriate.

 

On 5/20/2022 at 2:20 AM, Onmyway said:

I know what you mean about family members not understanding. One of mine researched withdrawal facilities - it was very sweet and well meant but misinformed. Sometimes they push us to go faster because it's hard for them to see how much we are suffering. 

 

That was nice of them.  My family offered to pay for admission or for counseling, but I told them to save their money.

 

Thanks again, hope you're doing well!

 

[OldDodgy]

@Knosretep

@Onmyway

 

This was a very helpful thread thank you.  
I hope it hasn’t triggered any anxiety. 
 

The whole anxiety v depression debate has been raging for years. 
My view is that anyone with persistent intrusive anxiety will become marginalised, sleepless and exhausted to highlight a few things. Inevitably this lead to reactive depression. (Endogenous depression is of course a different issue entirely). 
 

The chemical cure for anxiety using benzodiazepines has come in for more and more criticism and probably for good reason. But I believe the apparent need to use anxiolytic meds initially is often the result of a series of body blows which become part of our every day experience. Arron Beck, who was Judith’s dad, was ground breaking in helping us to use CBT to alleviate anxiety and reduce reactive extreme sadness back in the 80s 
 

We have many new tools at our disposal- IFS, CBT, EMDR, even SCHEMA work etc. 

 

I honestly believe we need to trust in brain plasticity as per Van de Kolk , 

and aim for snippets of improvement with the help of a person centred counsellor who will guide us in the right direction.
 

Naturally our support networks and personal circumstances vary hugely.
 

One can only hope to work on our damaged minds with patience and compassion, knowing there is no quick fix.
 

Best wishes

 

OD  

[Onmyway]

10 hours ago, Knosretep said:

Sorry to take so long in replying.  I went to respond the same day you wrote this, but I started thinking about my depression and was unable to "change the channel" and ended up in a depression spiral that totally wiped me out.  I'm feeling better now.

Please, never worry about not responding quickly. I will check on you if I start getting worried I am sorry that you ended in a depression spiral. I know spirals well and how awful they can be. I am glad you are out of it. 

 

There are a bunch of books on CBT. The most common one is by David Burns (Feeling Good) there is also CBT for Dummies. I think all of them would be useful if you can't find this book. You may be able to find some of these in pdf forms around the web. 

 

I also found this https://www.therapyforyou.co.uk/courses/online

I bet there are numerous videos on Youtube as well - see if any of them will feel right for you. 

 

Yes, IFS doesn't resonate with everybody, let's find you support that will fit your style

 

Also, you had mentioned in an earlier post about switching to diazepam. I am not sure that it is a good idea. I don't know that much about it but looked at various sources and it is very hard to determine the right dosage equivalency between the two so it's not clear what dosage of diazepam you would switch to. I'm not sure if the costs justify the benefits in this case. Have a think. 

 

OMW

 

Edited May 23, 2022 by Onmyway

[Knosretep]

18 hours ago, OldDodgy said:

@Knosretep

@Onmyway

 

This was a very helpful thread thank you.  
I hope it hasn’t triggered any anxiety. 
 

The whole anxiety v depression debate has been raging for years. 
My view is that anyone with persistent intrusive anxiety will become marginalised, sleepless and exhausted to highlight a few things. Inevitably this lead to reactive depression. (Endogenous depression is of course a different issue entirely). 
 

 

Hi @OldDodgy

 

This is what happens to me.  Stress seems to stick with me and turn into anxiety which turns into sleeplessness and then depression.

 

18 hours ago, OldDodgy said:

The chemical cure for anxiety using benzodiazepines has come in for more and more criticism and probably for good reason. But I believe the apparent need to use anxiolytic meds initially is often the result of a series of body blows which become part of our every day experience. Arron Beck, who was Judith’s dad, was ground breaking in helping us to use CBT to alleviate anxiety and reduce reactive extreme sadness back in the 80s 
 

We have many new tools at our disposal- IFS, CBT, EMDR, even SCHEMA work etc. 

 

I did therapy in 2009 and it was extremely helpful.  I don't know if it was any kind of specific type as I asked for a referral from my Dr. at the time and I don't remember any acronym being mentioned.

 

18 hours ago, OldDodgy said:

I honestly believe we need to trust in brain plasticity as per Van de Kolk , 

and aim for snippets of improvement with the help of a person centred counsellor who will guide us in the right direction.
 

Naturally our support networks and personal circumstances vary hugely.
 

One can only hope to work on our damaged minds with patience and compassion, knowing there is no quick fix.
 

Best wishes

 

OD  

 

Thanks for stopping by as always!  Hope you're dong well and seeing some windows!

 

[Knosretep]

9 hours ago, Onmyway said:

Please, never worry about not responding quickly. I will check on you if I start getting worried I am sorry that you ended in a depression spiral. I know spirals well and how awful they can be. I am glad you are out of it. 

 

I think it was a combination of having to get up early the day before, and then eating a burger and doing a bit of extra walking along with focusing on my depression to respond that set me off.  In general, I'm at about the same level of depression that I've been the past 6 months.  It had started to drop as my other symptoms improved and I was thinking that I could taper soon, but with the difficulties in tapering its just back to my previous level.  Its a pretty high level, but its not despair and I still have hope for an eventual recovery someday, even if that day is years away.  I know I'll continue to improve along the way as well, and I know that I can take breaks in tapering to enjoy feeling better if I need to.

 

9 hours ago, Onmyway said:

There are a bunch of books on CBT. The most common one is by David Burns (Feeling Good) there is also CBT for Dummies. I think all of them would be useful if you can't find this book. You may be able to find some of these in pdf forms around the web. 

 

Ah, I've heard great things about "Feeling Good".  I will search for it.

 

9 hours ago, Onmyway said:

I also found this https://www.therapyforyou.co.uk/courses/online

I bet there are numerous videos on Youtube as well - see if any of them will feel right for you. 

 

I'll try the link, thanks!

 

9 hours ago, Onmyway said:

Yes, IFS doesn't resonate with everybody, let's find you support that will fit your style

 

Also, you had mentioned in an earlier post about switching to diazepam. I am not sure that it is a good idea. I don't know that much about it but looked at various sources and it is very hard to determine the right dosage equivalency between the two so it's not clear what dosage of diazepam you would switch to. I'm not sure if the costs justify the benefits in this case. Have a think. 

 

OMW

 

 

I've been reading and researching this for weeks now, since I started tapering.  There are some people who have problems crossing over, but that's often because they don't switch over to enough Diazepam, or they just don't tolerate Diazepam in general.  In Ashton's first 50 patients, there was only 1 who couldn't make the switch over to Diazepam.  I know I can tolerate Diazepam, and I would switch as per the Ashton manual at a ratio of 1:20, which would put me at 18mg since I'm down to about .9mg of Clonazepam.  That's the highest ratio, with some sources reporting only a 1:10 rate.

 

Its supposed to be much easier to taper, and many people have a much smoother time, especially since Clonazepam is notoriously difficult to reduce.  I've read numerous accounts of people who were able to taper at a much greater rate after switching.  At the rate that I'm going and how difficult each cut of Clonazepam is, I feel like I have to give it a try, so I made an appointment for this Thursday with the Dr. to talk about this, which I'm sure they will acquiesce.  It might take a month to make a slow switch over, but at the rate that I'm tapering now that's hardly much ground lost.

 

Even if it isn't any easier to taper from, or any faster, at least I won't have to file and weigh pills everyday anymore once I'm switched over.  That alone is a source of anxiety and frustration and can take as much as 15-20 minutes some days if a pill breaks or I accidentally file too much and have to start another pill.  My scale fluctuates wildly and I have to re-calibrate it multiple times during weighing, and when I'm done I'm never sure about the exact mg my pills are at. 🥴

 

[Knosretep]

That link for the online therapy is only for those located in Essex, and required a ton of information to enter that I didn't have.  I found CBT for Dummies and have started that, and also "Feeling Good Together" which is the sequel, and probably a better read for my current situation.

 

I'm 3/4 crossed over to Diazepam without any issue.  I'm saving the last 1/4 to use up my remaining Clonazepam, and will begin tapering the Diazepam in another day or so.

 

Will update again after I make a few cuts and see how it goes.  Hope everyone is doing okay!

[Onmyway]

13 minutes ago, Knosretep said:

That link for the online therapy is only for those located in Essex, and required a ton of information to enter that I didn't have.  I found CBT for Dummies and have started that, and also "Feeling Good Together" which is the sequel, and probably a better read for my current situation.

 

I'm 3/4 crossed over to Diazepam without any issue.  I'm saving the last 1/4 to use up my remaining Clonazepam, and will begin tapering the Diazepam in another day or so.

 

Will update again after I make a few cuts and see how it goes.  Hope everyone is doing okay!

This sounds good  - especially that there are no issues with the crossover. I would advise that you let this change settle for a couple of weeks at least (or preferably a month) before you start tapering. I know you are impatient (I am too with my taper) but your safety and health is more important. 

 

Glad that you have found the CBT books. CBT works if you do the exercises - there are also apps that help you do the exercises, esp thought records. 

[OldDodgy]

@Knosretep

Sounds like things going in the right direction!! 
Agree with @Onmywaythat be cautious after the switch for a little while. 
Best wishes OD

[Knosretep]

Its been a while since I've posted.  I don't visit the site regularly anymore because I no longer receive email notifications or notifications on the site about threads that I'm supposed to be following, despite all my settings saying that I should.

 

I'm on day 7 of my 2nd 0.5mg cut of Diazepam following the crossover to stage3 from Clonazepam.  The first cut I held for 10 days, and days 4-7 were pretty rough.  This cut has been better than the first with a minimal increase of symptoms.  I'm going to continue cutting 0.5mg every 10 days for as long as I can tolerate the symptoms.  If I can continue this rate, it will take about a year to get to 0.  That's around 2x as fast as I was going with Clonazepam, and its nice not to have to file and weigh pills.  Finally making some progress in reducing my drug intake without too much WD is lifting my spirits a little bit.

 

I don't think or worry much about my Venlafaxine WD anymore.  I still get waves occasionally but they are pretty minor and only last a few days.  My sleep is still broken, still have depression and anhedonia that lift during the evenings.  Anxiety, Headaches, and Tinnitus are almost 0 now except during waves and in the middle of cuts.  My legs burn a little less but still flare up in waves and cuts.  Haven't had another case of fatigue that's left me on the couch unable to move for over a month.  I still eat 99% of the time at home, the same 4 meals everyday, and that keeps my stomach from having problems.  I'm working every day and saving every penny. 

 

I still feel like I'm mostly surviving instead of living, but I do enjoy reading every night, and occasionally getting together with friends to play board games.  Its going to take a long time before I'm free of these drugs, and even longer till I'm healed from the effects of them, but if I just keep taking 1 day at a time I know I'll get there and will be able to write a success story of my own someday.

 

Thanks for reading.  Hope you're in a window and seeing that progress and healing are happening.  ❤️

[unblocktheplanet]

My shrink tells me that Melatonin is ineffective in anyone who has ever taken any Benzo. That would be you...and me!

 

Maybe he's right, or not. But I'd start with 300mcg & step up really slowly. Yes, you will find mega Melatonin groups but...

 

In terms of tapering Clonazepam, I would highly recommend reading the Ashton Manual of Benzodiazepine Withdrawal. She's definitely the world's most experienced.

[Knosretep]

Hi @unblocktheplanet

 

Thanks for commenting in my thread!

 

Melatonin was ineffective for me even before I ever took any benzo, and I'm generally trying to avoid supplements aside from Fish Oil.

 

I've read the Ashton Manual many times and am no longer trying to taper Clonazepam, just using up the last of my pills before I crossover completely to Diazepam.

 

Good job on getting off your drugs so far, and good luck with your remaining ones!

[Knosretep]

Just before my 3rd cut of Diazepam I was hit with symptoms which I thought were a Venlafaxine wave.  The symptoms haven't let up yet and it appears that 10 days is not enough per cut and its finally catching up to me.  Akathisia even. 😕

 

Will hold for 1-2 weeks and then try cutting 0.5mg every 2 weeks.

[unblocktheplanet]

Knosretep, like you, I'm new here. But I think you're going way too fast. Follow the directions--one at a time. I'm 72 & I've still got two poisons to drop. Might not make it, right, but I'll at least die trying. A lot of this is simply developing some patience & adjusting your mental attitude about what tapering & weaning means. You know the result you want to accomplish--feeling better, right? Good luck.

[OldDodgy]

@Knosretep

I absolutely agree that ten days is too quick between drops. 
With the diazepam history of 55 years I am going to go pretty slow. 
With my tabs I can conveniently go at 7% every three weeks. 
But my first cut is hurting a bit at day 6. 
Good wishes 

OD 

[Greatful]

@Knosretep  

I found out all my notifications for SA are going into my spam.  Have you checked that?

My heart goes out to you, I also have to taper off several drugs.  Do these doctors really know what they are doing?😡 

Stay in the day Knosretep somehow, someday we'll be writing our success  stories.🌞  

[Knosretep]

@unblocktheplanet @OldDodgy

 

Yes, 10 days is too fast.  Its weird how the WD built up without manifesting at the end of the 1st week and in the middle of the 2nd week.  It was dumb of me to cut again while starting to experience symptoms on day 10 of the 2nd cut, even if I thought it was a Venlafaxine wave.  Its been 20 days now and I'm using probiotics again to help with some physical symptoms.

 

@Greatful

 

Yes, its not just emails, I also don't see updates under the bell icon of the site for many posts that I should be following.  I think I'm only getting @Knosretep notifications.

[unblocktheplanet]

Knostie, I'm getting notifications of new postings to your thread. I'd like to hear your current symptoms, please. Maybe they'll spark something in me to help you.

 

You mention 'domestic disputes'. I've been examining through all this whether I can associate a deterioration with a 'trigger event'. If so, it has not been so clear for me.

 

At one bottom, I had a pack of cops swarm over my wall (they were not after me but a neighbour). It would probably have been freaky if I felt 'normal' (whatever that is).

 

I don't know if this is applicable to you, Knostie, but sleeplessness has always been my nemesis, like since 1982. Lack of sleep makes you psychotic (whatever that is).

 

But just recently, in this window after 10 months of hell-th, I find I'm able, for the first time ever, to just get along with it. Yeah, I'm really beat. 2-5 hours at best. But I seem to be coping & getting life done. This is not conscious, of course, just happening beyond my control.

 

Go easy on yourself about the domestic disputes. We had a lot of years in hell with our teenage daughter, now most estranged, both geographically & emotionally. It really, really hard to convince those who love you how deeply you're suffering. I honestly don't thing anybody else can really 'get it'.

 

Follow the instructions here on SA, and be patient.

[Knosretep]

@unblocktheplanet

 

I did not see any notification of your post, but was just coming here to vent and see there's been activity.  Thank you for stopping by again in support.

 

Last night was not a good night for sleep, and I was awoken 3 times.  When I finally got out of bed this morning, my brain was telling me to kill myself.  Its been quite a while since I've had these dark thoughts.  I know they will go away, but its the not knowing that makes this all so difficult.  Its been 20 days since I cut 3%, and the previous cut before that was 10 days, at 2.94%.

 

I used to sleep okay before this mess.  Not great, but able to function fine.

 

I'm trying my hardest with the domestic disputes but withdrawal is so straining even on a good relationship.  I'm sorry to hear about your daughter.

 

Impatiently holding patiently.

[Knosretep]

@Greatful

 

You were right, my emails were going to spam.  I didn't think that was possible as I had a filter setup, but my benzo brain never actually checked when you mentioned it before.

 

Hope you're going okay!

[Ariel]

@Knosretep

 

1 hour ago, Knosretep said:

Impatiently holding patiently.

 

Perfect <3

 

Following along from the sidelines, rooting for you!

A.

[unblocktheplanet]

Knostie, it’s the damnedest thing, eh. I’ve been there, too, through this withdrawal. It’s like demonic possession. Seems to take over…everything.

 

I probably had two months like that, thinking about the hole I'd leave in the universe.

 

Hold on. You’ve got a great support community here.

 

Enjoy the rains. Let them wash all that sh*t away.

[Knosretep]

Hi @Ariel

 

I see your posts everywhere on the site offering hope, encouragement, and support to so many of us.  Thank you for being so amazing!

[Knosretep]

7 minutes ago, unblocktheplanet said:

Knostie, it’s the damnedest thing, eh. I’ve been there, too, through this withdrawal. It’s like demonic possession. Seems to take over…everything.

 

Yes, it does feel like that.  Like mind control.

 

7 minutes ago, unblocktheplanet said:

I probably had two months like that, thinking about the hole I'd leave in the universe.

 

Damn, I don't know how you made it through for that long.  That's some serious mental fortitude right there.

 

7 minutes ago, unblocktheplanet said:

Hold on. You’ve got a great support community here.

 

Enjoy the rains. Let them wash all that sh*t away.

 

I'm doing my damnedest to distract and hold on.  Thank you @unblocktheplanet

[unblocktheplanet]

I've written about some of this in Ariel's thread. She's a gem, eh!

 

What got me through most when I was basically just going through the motions at living was thinking about the people who love me.

 

I'm old, but I've had an incredible, unparalleled, unique life. All that would be forgotten. What I'd be remembered for was that one moment.

[Knosretep]

I managed to get through the horrible wave that was either buildup of Diazepam cuts, or possibly also from the Venlafaxine.

 

Now on day 6 of the next .5mg cut and its a little better than yesterday.

 

These cuts have left me with little willpower to push through the day to day challenges that arise, and little strength to help support those around me.  I feel like its taking everything I have just to keep my little flame flickering.  This is how it feels:

 

On 7/21/2022 at 6:22 PM, unblocktheplanet said:

What got me through most when I was basically just going through the motions at living was thinking about the people who love me.

 

[unblocktheplanet]

I hear you, Brother. I've never been a big fan of AA but they got it right about this: one day at a time. Fun fact: founder of AA discovered this concept...on LSD!