ADWarrior: Noritren / nortriptyline / Pamelor withdrawal from Japan

[ADWarrior]

Hi everybody, 

 

I have found this forum as I am trying to W/D from several anxiety and sleeping medicine being prescribed to me due to a nervous breakdown I had in 2018. I was in a really bad shape suffering from panic attacks, akathisia, insomnia and many others so I have decided to search for a help here in Japan. Learning just that I will be prescribed medicine without being clearly advised on what are the risks. Not to mention I have been prescribed to take 5 tablets combination of benzodiazepines and antidepressants.  My original doctor told me after 9 months of taking the medicine that I can stop at anytime . So I did, and only after few weeks I had the shock to the system severe W/S. I have realized that something is not right and it took me over a year to educate myself on the dangers of the medicine and another year to find another physician who would be willing to work with me on lowering the dose.

 

I did not have any bad side effects from the medicine I was taking but I simply did not feel myself. Taking this many tranquilizers was making me not keen on doing exercise and overall not being very active. I put on weight and so on. However the main reason is that I believe I don't need the medicine anymore and most likely did not needed them 2 years ago. I have done intensive counseling therapy for over 2 years so I am confident I can combat my original trigger.

As well my challenge was that to find a fluently english speaking Psychiatrist as I am a foreigner living in Japan. However I found one!

 

This year 2021 I have been able to wean off 2 x Benzodiazepines and although it has not been easy it was not as bad as I was expecting. However when the time to withdraw from the Antidepressant Noritren came I hit a wall. In September I have start lowering the dose from 10mg in AM to 7.5mg and 10mg PM. I had some W/S for 3 weeks but stabilized the 4th week. I knew I have to slow it down even further to make it more manageable so I have cut the evening dose from 10mg to 8.75 and I could feel it was stronger but thought it will go away or slow down after couple of days. Unfortunately it did not. I had a flight to Tokyo and back and on the way back I start feeling the symptoms to elevate. Being on a plane moving and shaking did not help and I start feeling so bad that very strong suicidal thoughts start crawling through my mind which shook me to the core as I have never ever before have experienced anything like this. On the next day I went to see my doctor and he advised me to go back to the full dose AM and PM. Its been a month and I am still feeling the system has not healed but all mental symptoms went away and I only feel some physical ( pin and needles). I will take another month to stabilize but need to find a way how to approach this. 

 

According to the information I found here it is recommended to start with the Antidepressant before you get onto the Benzodiazepines which makes perfect sense. I have only the Noritren which in Japan comes in 10mg tablets with hard coating so not suitable for titration or precise cutting method. However apparently I should be able to use ethanol to dissolve them so I am going to experiment in that direction as switching to another antidepressant TCA sounds risky. 

 

See the history bellow. If anybody has any ideas or hand on experience similar to mine please let me know. Any help is very much appreciated. 

 

Withdrawing in 2021
Benzo - Lorazepam 0.5mg - February - April - was taking for 9 mths
Benzo - PZC 2mg April - Jun - was taking for 3 years
2 months to stabilize
Antidepressant - Noritren (nortrityline from wiki)  10mg 2 x day taking for 3 years 

September down to 7.5mg AM 10mg PM

October back to 10mg AM and PM to stabilize due to a bad W/D symptoms 

November 90% stabilized but would like to find a way how to continue

Sleeping Benzos
Brotizolam * 0.25mg - holding - 5h half-life - 3 years taking
Nitrazepam (Mogadon from wiki)  5 mg - holding 25h Half life - 9 mths taking

 

 

* Brotizolam (marketed under brand name Lendormin) is a sedative-hypnotic thienotriazolodiazepine drug which is a benzodiazepine analog. It possesses anxiolytic , anticonvulsant , hypnotic , sedative and skeletal muscle relaxant properties, and is considered to be similar in effect to other short-acting hypnotic benzodiazepines such as triazolam or midazolam (from wiki)

 

 

Edited November 16, 2021 by ChessieCat
CC added alt drug name and extra info for Brotizolam

[Kiasofia]

Welcome @ADWarrior

I am sorry you are going through this, but relieved you have found us.

 

Do I understand correctly that you are currently taking Noritren 10mg two times a day, as well as Brotizolam 0.25mg and Nitrazepam 5mg? Do you take Brotizolam and Nitrazepam daily? Do you take any supplements? Had you taken any psych drugs before 2018? Please update your signature so it shows the year and month you started taking the different drugs.

 

It is advised to not taper until you have felt stable for minimum 4 weeks and then follow these guidelines:

Why taper by 10% of my dosage?

 

NEVER SKIP DOSES TO TAPER

Tips for tapering off nortriptyline

 

About making your own liquid:

How to make a liquid from tablets or capsules

 

Be aware  that the lower doses are harder to taper than higher doses. This explains why:

Why taper? Importance of gradual change in plasma concentration

 

I found this post helpful to understand what is going on and why healing takes time:

How Psychiatric Drugs Remodel Your Brain

 

Coming off these drugs can cause many different withdrawal symptoms, often leading to doctors thinking the original condition is returning or that another mental illness has emerged.

What is withdrawal syndrome?

 

Dr. Joseph Glenmullen's withdrawal symptom checklist

 

When we recover, there are times of feeling OK mixed in with times of feeling bad.  This is called windows and waves.

 

The Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization

 

Take some time to read the information I have provided and then we can take it from there. This is your Introductory topic, where you can ask questions and connect with other members.  I’m glad you found us, we’re here to support you!

Edited November 16, 2021 by Kiasofia

[ADWarrior]

Hi @Kiasofia

 

Thank you so much for your warm welcome email! I am as well glad I have found you and I have been a busy bee researching all information on your site  

 

Regarding your questions. 

1. I have updated my signature. I hope it is making more sense now. Just in case answering al bellow. 
2. Yes I am taking currently Noritren 10mg two times a day Am / PM so 20mg in total per day. As well for sleep I am taking Brotizolam 0.25mg and Nitrazepam 5mg at night at 10 PM. 
3. I am not sure I can call it supplements as such but I am on a Chinese medicine for sleep, energy and increase in bow function since beginning of this year 2021. There is no name just numbers. It helps me to stabilize my overall condition and mainly evens out energy drops during the day. I have been taking these before as well when I felt I am exhausted and natural sleep and rest wouldn’t help. 
4. I have not been taking any other psych drugs before 2018. I have never stayed in hospital or had any operation. 

I now understand that I did not give my body enough time to stabilize between cutting and should have stayed on the Noritren 7.5mg AM  10mg PM combination for another 4 weeks as you have mentioned before making another cut. Although the week when I was stable on this dose was the best week since I started W/D. I felt full of energy no symptoms I was so surprised that I feel that way for a week so another cut was kind of making sense yo me at that time. 

 

The Noritren version I get in Japan comes only in 10mg and 25mg tablets which are coated thus not soluble in water ( I have tried). No liquid or other form is available. I know they can be cut to 1/8 of its size which might work at the beginning but once lower dose is reached it is going to be difficult if not impossible to reach accurate deduction.  I can see the suggestion to use ethanol ( contained in vodka) to dissolve the tablet. I am not sure if this will work on this medicine and how to go about it. I did read all links you have send me but still am not clear on it. 

 

Is the hard coated Noritren safe to dissolve with alcohol if it not suppose to be mixed with alcohol based on the prescription?

How does the coating will affect the calculation of the actual dose? 

 

When I have asked my doctor what we going to do he suggested to fully stabilize first ( I agree). It seems it is going to take at least another month as my W/S have gone down significantly but still getting small waves daily ( mix of mild anxiety, depression, light dizziness). I have noticed that I am usually fine during the day but in the evening my symptoms intensify ( not every night) until I take my sleeping Benzos. I am just wondering if there is no inter-withdrawal effect happening with my sleeping Benzos as the longest half life of the Nitrazepam 5mg is around 24h and Brotizolam only 5h.

 

The doctor suggested to start withdrawing with the sleeping Benzos instead but I have reviewed your guidelines and from the way the I am reacting to the medication I can see that I will benefit from having the sleep support while getting off the Noritren. 

 

Although very scared of cutting the Noritren again I am willing to give it a go. Ideally in some sort of liquid form for more accuracy and lower cuts. Any help with this process would be appreciated. I have been searching and searching but can not find a definite answer. 

 

Thank you so much fo your time and help! 

[Kiasofia]

I'm glad you have found the information here useful! I will ask for input from other moderators regarding making a liquid for Noritren.

 

Another option is this:

Using a scale to weigh and measure doses

 

I don't know your specific supplement, and if using it is going well that is good, but our general advice is to be careful adding in anything new. Even natural remedies can be unpredictable for our sensitized central nervous system (CNS).

Important topics about tests, supplements, treatments, diet

[ADWarrior]

Thank you @Kiasofia for the kind reply! 

 

I have reviewed all the information and still are not sure how to go about it. 

 

The Noritren tablets available are so small and covered with thick protective coating that I am not sure if there is any precise way to scale and weight it. The first step is to get through the protective coating which already alters the weight of the tablet not making it safe for W/D. 

 

I see as only option to dilute the pill with the coating but again would like to hear from someone if the ethanol / vodka ( or any other liquid) would work on this type of pill safely. Quoting from @Rhiannon article on How to make a liquid from tablet. " Many extended-release tablets are held together by a glue to retard their absorption. Mixed with water or other liquids, these tablets become a soggy glob." 

I am not sure if this is not the case of this tablet as well. I had my pharmacy cut them into 1/8th and I could tell that the coating was holding it together but the powder inside was not evenly distributed and crumbled. 

https://www.rad-ar.or.jp/siori/english/kekka_plain.cgi?n=1431

 

I am not familiar with all the western medication names and how they are packaged but I am sure there are some in similar form. 

 

Any help is highly appreciated! 

 

 

[ChessieCat]

You could try crushing the tablet and then mixing it with water.

[ChessieCat]

Q:  How long did you leave the tablet in water?

[ChessieCat]

Q:  Can you find the ingredients for the tablets?

 

You could try a search for:  Noritren monograph ingredients

 

If you cannot find the ingredients then the pharmacist might be able to tell you.

 

I have had a look online and haven't been able to find the information.

[ADWarrior]

@ChessieCat thank you for your replies! 

 

1. I have left the tablet in water for 3 days. One day in room temperature and 2 days in fridge. There had been obvious leftovers of the coating and other small pieces. even after shaking etc. it didn't help  

2. Crushing pretty much does the same thing. I cant get a clean powder. Not to mention that if I take too much from the crushed coating it would not be the same. 

 

Noritren monograph ingredients - I will try to research and let you know. Most of the info is in Japanese which makes it challenging but I will try. 

 

Thank you again for your input! 

 

 

[ChessieCat]

53 minutes ago, ADWarrior said:

1. I have left the tablet in water for 3 days. One day in room temperature and 2 days in fridge. There had been obvious leftovers of the coating and other small pieces. even after shaking etc. it didn't help

 

Q:  Did the coating split and the inside dissolve?

 

53 minutes ago, ADWarrior said:

2. Crushing pretty much does the same thing. I cant get a clean powder. Not to mention that if I take too much from the crushed coating it would not be the same. 

 

Q:  Did it seem like it was only the coating that didn't dissolve?

 

 

I imagine that the coating is just that, a coating and that the inside is where the drug is.  My thinking is that what is happening is that the drug does dissolve but you get left with only coating bits.  If this is the case, then that means that the liquid will contain the full dose of the drug.

 

The reason I asked you to try to find the ingredients is because it might provide some information about the coating.

 

Asking the pharmacist might be helpful.

 

 

I am wondering what would happen if you cut a tablet in "half" and added it to the water, would the inside "material" dissolve and leave the coating intact.  You would have to add the entire tablets including any tiny bits that break off to make sure that you got the lot, but if the majority of the coating stays intact it would be easy to remove most of it.

 

 

 

[ADWarrior]

Hi @ChessieCat

 

thank you for your swift reply. 

 

14 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

Q:  Did the coating split and the inside dissolve?

 

I remember it was a bit of everything even after 3 days. I will test it again with half tablet and send you the results via pictures or video and maybe you can let me know what you think?

 

New Q : 

I would like to ask as I had been reinstated on the full amount I had been before cutting  Noritren 10mg AM and 10mg PM and its been 6 weeks but I am still not stable. The pin and needles, anxiety, depression have stabilized but others came up like fatigue and I dont feel fully myself mainly in the evenings. I am on antidepressant medicine but I have never been depressed in my life. Only getting off this medication I feel some depression which is very new to me. The longest I had W/S even while getting off my previous medication was 5 weeks. I have as well noticed that my symptoms are usually intensifying in the evening around 8 PM. I am not sure if this is result of withdrawing this year from other medicine ( fairly quickly but minimum symptoms) one benzo and one anti psychotic medicine. I was thinking if my benzo for sleep is not giving me inter withdrawal symptoms due to its fairly short half life. Please see my signature. At the beginning I did not think much of it but I have started to make a diary recently of the symptoms I feel every day and it seems like it is always worst in the evening. I dont usually see any change even if I take the PM dose of the Noritren around 6 PM but can fall a sleep after I take the benzos at 10PM so wondering what it could be or better what could I do about it?

 

I hope this is not inappropriate for this forum but I can see you are in Sydney where I have stayed while studying at Macquarie University - I had a great time! 

 

Thank you again I will be back with the results on the Noritren ! 

 

[ADWarrior]

Hi @ChessieCat

 

I have tried to dissolve the Noritren I have available in water and gave a bit of help with a spoon. The best I could come up with is the attached picture. One is made out of full tablet and the other with 1/2 cut tablet. I dont see much difference and there are still many particles inside. Not sure if this is even enough or if I am expecting too much. Would love to hear your opinion. 

 

Thank you so much 

 

Picture in  this link 

Noritren mixed in water full and half tablet

 

 

[ChessieCat]

Wow, thanks for providing the photo.  It definitely shows that there is a lot of powder that doesn't get dissolved.

 

The hard thing is knowing if it is just all filling or if there is actually some drug there that doesn't get dissolved.

 

I'm going to ask a couple of the senior mods for their opinion.

 

[Carmie]

Hi ADwarrior, 

 

How are you doing? Please take as long as you need to stabilise before you decide to taper again and change to liquid. I remember getting too eager with tapering a few times in the past and then paying for it.

 

I highly recommend doing a crossover too if you change to liquid. 
 

I’m sorry to hear about your akathisia, it’s really awful, isn’t it? I get it severely if I taper too quickly too.
 

All the best, sending hugs🤗

[ADWarrior]

Hi @Carmie

 

Thank you for checking on me and for your message! 

 

I am still stabilising and have start writing a daily symptoms diary to keep an eye on the progress I am making. I have W/D two medications (benzo &  antipsychotic) this year so I assume my body needs to adapt so I am happy to wait.  I am following another post @Iman where I believe you have as well commented. I am still not sure how to go about the crossover as the tablet I have wont get fully dissolved. I have tried everything with water but it is not working. I still have to try the ethanol option to see how it will react. Will keep updating this feed. For now I just want to stabilize before I move any further. My doctor was indicating that maybe we will start W/D the sleeping benzos I am on first before we get back onto the antidepresant. I know this forum is suggesting to do the opposite but I am not sure yet. As well my doctor is not keen on mixing the Noritren with alcohol ( ethanol) as he states it has many hidden risks. 

 

I can see that you are having a battle on your own. I am wondering if you are able with the super slow micro tapper get by without or with minimum W/S? How do you decide how much to cut as it seems like a very tiny progress every month. 

 

Akathisia was something I have never heard about before and it was difficult and lasted almost a year to fully disappear even with all the medication. From learning about it I did not have the strongest symptoms but it was there and it was persistent to the point I was unable to go outside, stop on a red light while walking, stay sitting in bath for only few minutes. I have been trying to teach my brain to slowly increase the distance and gave myself challenges to do on a daily basis to move by a hair every day. It was working but very slowly. I am glad I don't have it at this stage but still have a long way to go. 

 

I can see you have been experiencing some suicidal thoughts and wondering how did you manage to combat it as I had it only once but did scare the hell out of me. I am 100% sure it was due to the medication. I have learned that the physical symptoms I can take but the mental are very difficult. 

 

Thank you again for your message it is very much appreciated as it can be a very lonely battle as many people can not understand what we going through. I can see you are on a steady decrease which I assume is working for you so it should be just a matter of time for you to be free!

 

Love and hugs right back at you  

 

 

 

[Carmie]

49 minutes ago, ADWarrior said:

Hi @Carmie

 

Thank you for checking on me and for your message! 

 

I am still stabilising and have start writing a daily symptoms diary to keep an eye on the progress I am making. I have W/D two medications (benzo &  antipsychotic) this year so I assume my body needs to adapt so I am happy to wait.  I am following another post @Iman where I believe you have as well commented. I am still not sure how to go about the crossover as the tablet I have wont get fully dissolved. I have tried everything with water but it is not working. I still have to try the ethanol option to see how it will react. Will keep updating this feed. For now I just want to stabilize before I move any further. My doctor was indicating that maybe we will start W/D the sleeping benzos I am on first before we get back onto the antidepresant. I know this forum is suggesting to do the opposite but I am not sure yet. As well my doctor is not keen on mixing the Noritren with alcohol ( ethanol) as he states it has many hidden risks. 

 

I can see that you are having a battle on your own. I am wondering if you are able with the super slow micro tapper get by without or with minimum W/S? How do you decide how much to cut as it seems like a very tiny progress every month. 

 

Akathisia was something I have never heard about before and it was difficult and lasted almost a year to fully disappear even with all the medication. From learning about it I did not have the strongest symptoms but it was there and it was persistent to the point I was unable to go outside, stop on a red light while walking, stay sitting in bath for only few minutes. I have been trying to teach my brain to slowly increase the distance and gave myself challenges to do on a daily basis to move by a hair every day. It was working but very slowly. I am glad I don't have it at this stage but still have a long way to go. 

 

I can see you have been experiencing some suicidal thoughts and wondering how did you manage to combat it as I had it only once but did scare the hell out of me. I am 100% sure it was due to the medication. I have learned that the physical symptoms I can take but the mental are very difficult. 

 

Thank you again for your message it is very much appreciated as it can be a very lonely battle as many people can not understand what we going through. I can see you are on a steady decrease which I assume is working for you so it should be just a matter of time for you to be free!

 

Love and hugs right back at you  

 

 

 

Hi ADwarrior, 

 

Yes, just keep holding until you stabilise before you do anything as regards tapering. 
 

When I crush my tablet of Seroquel it looks similar to that of Iman’s picture. I can’t open the link to your photo, I’m only on an iPad. 25 mg of Seroquel is a really small tablet, but I’ve had no problems crushing it with a mortar and pestle and then adding water. After I’ve added the water I crush it some more with the mortar and pestle. I’ve had no experience with making liquids with alcohol. 

 

As regards what you want to taper first, you will have to make your own decisions. The reason it’s recommended not to do the more sedating meds first is that it may help you to cope with the withdrawals from the other meds. At least you’ll still be getting sleep. 
 

It doesn’t matter how slowly you go with tapering, you will still get withdrawals. I still get withdrawals with every small drop. Your brain has to adjust to the new normal with every drop.
 

As regards when I decide to do the next taper, I just listen to my body. I’m doing just over 1% every three weeks or so at the moment, but if the withdrawals are still really bad after three weeks I will hold longer. 
 

It is still going to take me many, many years to get off this medication. I won’t be coming off it until I’m down to 0.00 something.
 

I don’t have any suicidal thoughts now, that was when I had Akathisia and I didn’t know what was wrong with me. I was put on and off so many meds, it all started because of chronic pain. Anyway, the withdrawals caused the Akathisia etc and I thought there was something terribly wrong with me mentally and physically, and that it was permanent.  I didn’t realise it was the meds that were doing this to me. 
 

Wishing you all the best🧡

 

[Kiasofia]

Hi @ADWarrior

How is stabilizing going? One of our moderators has this suggestion about dealing with your tablet:
 

Quote

 

It is practically insoluble in water (0.8mg/mL) so you would have to use a suspension.

It is highly soluble in alcohol (15mg/mL) so I would use a small amount of vodka for the initial solution and then add water to a workable volume.

 

The pictures look like a workable suspension. Possibly grind the tablets finer before dissolving.

 

 

Let us know if it works.

[ChessieCat]

@ADWarrior

 

Q:  Did you try the suggestion given above?

 

Q:  If yes, did it work?

 

 

[ADWarrior]

Hi @ChessieCat & @Kiasofia

thank you so much for all your input and please accept my sincere apology about my late reply. 

 

I am still stabilizing and maybe just last couple of days I feel like the symptoms are easing up to more manageable level. I have not been able to experiment with the alcohol Vodka suggestion even  though it is on my mind everyday. Since I don't drink alcohol I don't have access to 90 proof Vodka which according to my research is about 45% of alcohol version. I can find a 37.5% but hoping I will be able to find one that matches the suggested strength. If not I would use the one I have access to and let you all know. 

 

Thank you again for checking on me! I sincerely appreciate it. 

 

 

 

[ADWarrior]

Just an update on my situation. Every month I hope I will be fully stable to continue with my deduction but my symptoms wont let go. I am keeping a record of every day spread into how I feel during

 

Morning - My best time of the day

Lunch 

Afternoon

Evening  - Usually symptoms get stronger 

Night 

Summary of the day and giving a rating 

 

As well I do every month summary, symptoms, chalenges and goals. 

 

I have been doing this since October 2021 and it helps me to see the good windows and bad waves. I have noticed that the symptoms are changing and slowly lowering its intensity but I still can not call myself stable. As the body tension, shakes anxiety went away new as heart palpitation, ear pain and strong irritation came on board. It is all doable just very uncomfortable. I am unable to do any exercise only very light activities as walking some light gardening work. Lately I am able to enjoy my days and have a laugh  

 

Looking back I have probably went too fast off the PZC ( antipsychotic) & Lorazepam ( benzodiazepine) and now paying the price. It seems like it is going to take longer to stabilize but I am OK with it. I will update as soon as I have something new to report. 

[Iman]

@ADWarrior

 

It's great to hear you're doing fine and seeing improvements. 👍👏 you're doing a nice job journaling your symptoms and recording your waves and windows. This is a huge help for us as when we're in a wave our sentisized brains tend to make it appear as if all past days have been dark and dismal and hardly cling to the beautiful moments we had during our windows. So when we read our journal and are reminded of the good moments on window days, we feel uplifted and boosted. Keep up the good work dear ADWARRIOR. 👏👍🌹🌷💪

[ADWarrior]

Quote

 

@Iman

 

Thank you for your kind words as always you have been a very positive and encouraging person! I hope you are doing good. You have only small dose to discontinue so it is all just a question of time. I am following your post so I cant wait for any news you will have to share as it keeps my hopes up as well! All the best from Japan. More power to you! 

[Iman]

@ADWarrior

 

Sorry for the late response dear ADwarrior. My luck has been tough a little bit as I once again came down with a strep throat and a sinus infection in less than 4 months from the previous time. I'm taking another course of coamoxiclav. I have full faith in ur ability to be done with the Nori posion in a year or so. I'm doing my best to stay focused and realistic as much as I can. Once i'm done with the strep, I'll continue with my taper but will be rather cautious this time. I guess i'd be better off with a 1 to 2 percent cut to begin with and see how things pan out. Wish you all the best. Will stay in touch. Take care.🌹🌷👍

[ADWarrior]

@Iman

 

Don't worry about late replies! We all have our own issues so sometimes it is hard to reply quickly. Just when you feel like you can and want to is OK  

 

I am just wondering if you have any WD symptoms in the last 6 months except the other complications? I agree to start slowly WD and take it from there. I am so afraid to combine my medication with any other drugs as any additional pain would be very hard. I understand if you didn't have any other option. How do you feel mentally? Is everything OK or do you still have some waves? 

 

Warm greetings will be in touch! 

[Iman]

@ADWarrior

 

Thanks for ur deep understanding dear warrior. Let me share with you a very crucial piece of advice here if i may of course. There are three challenges all of us are facing which we need to train our brains get a hold of. By introducing the first challenge i'll be answering ur query about whether i had WD in the past 6 months of NOT tapering. The first challenge we come to grips with on our journey is the SIDE EFFECTS of the drug itself and not WD. When I'm not tapering and as guys here put it am in homeostatis, my symptoms pattern change and grow entirely different from the ones i experience when i make a cut. So for the past 6 months I've been mostly dealing with the negative side effects of holding onto 9.5 mg, which for my case have most often been unwanted intrusive thoughts, mild OCD, midnight awakings, sleep inertia, constant hypnic jerks amd muscle spasms, electric shock sensations when transitioning from wakefullness to sleep, bad vivid dreams and tinnitus. The second issue is WD itself which we go through when make cuts and embark upon tapering. For me, it's the elimination of several above mentioned side effects, persistence of the rest and addition of the unique WD symptoms (my list includes but not limited to: blurred vision, loss of some colors in my vision, depression, unwanted crying spells, paresthesia, panic attacks, elevated blood pressure, freezing cold hands and feet, weight loss, lack of sleep, sound sensitivity, hypervigilence and hyperarousal, lack of appetite, lack of libido and several others by listing all of which i don't intend to bore you. Third issue is the typical stressors we get from everyday life similar to what wd-free people are experiencing. We tend to react a bit more harshly and sensitively to these stressors as we already have enough on our plate so we need to reduce those and even better come up with logical and rational mechanisms and strategies to help our brains cope with these in a habitual manner. First and foremost is accepting them and minimizing the power of each problem or hardship we go through by anticipating how we're gonna feel and what harsh things we'll be experiencing when we go through such situations. As time goes by and through repeated exposures to the same problems, you'll see that our brains gradually gain resilience and subsequently go through much less stress and agitation when compared to the previous ones. An example for me was the forced use of antibiotics for the first time during my tapering from nortriptyline which happened almost 6 months ago for a strep throat case. I'd read so many horror stories about how antibiotics make wd symptoms 10 times worse and bring on numerous other health problems so what happened for me was that my brain began to identify the antibotics as a big danger the result of which was unbearable agony, stress, fear, sleepless nights and even diarrhea. I went through the dark days of antibiotics however possible by the aid of Advil, Tylenol and some other relaxing and pacifying herbal potions. Right now I'm taking another course of antibiotics(Augmentin) for another case of strep throat and sinus infection but this time things are a whole lot more manageable and stress-free as my brain has learned already that side effects of antibitics worsening wd symptoms are real but minimal and most of what the unpleasantness it went through last time was in fact the byproduct of FEAR and STRESS from the side effects not the side effects themsleves. All in all, it's about acceptance of the limitations we're facing and trying our best to grow out of them by training our brains to cope with them and even turn them into strengths in our character(building resilience). In the end, I believe it's all about learning the art of gradually turning BITTER days into BETTER days, it's possible and u'll see. Sorry this was too long. Stay strong and take care. Will be in touch. 👍🌷🌹💪

[ADWarrior]

@Iman 

 

thank you for your detailed description of your problem. I do apologize I have maybe not read your profile carefully or was too much concerned with my own situation to omit this very important detail and that is that you had problems from getting onto the medicine and are struggling while on it but can not get off it  

 

I guess we all going through a hard time and think that our situation is the worst and then we discover that some have it even more challenging! 

One of the worst story I have been exposed to was that of Mr Jordan Petersson who reacted very badly with Akathisia to alteration of his benzodiazepines. Again I did not know that was a condition or better to say side effect of this type of medication. I clearly remember that I had bad Akathisia when was put on the cocktail of medication and took almost a year to fully recover from it. 

 

Here I have to say so far I was lucky ( although not feeling like it) that when on medications I did not have any strong symptoms only wasn't myself. I felt like my mind was hijacked and could not feel happy or sad to the extent a healthy person would. As well my needs to do something was lowered and I was just happy to sit in front of TV not doing anything. I tried exercise but it just wasn't fun. Before taking these pills I was very active. I knew I had to get this medication out of my system to be fully myself. I started to get off the antipsychotics and did not have any symptoms while cutting. Took month off and start cutting the Benzo. I did have some WD but it wasn't so bad or unbearable. Took another month to stabilize during which I felt better and thought this will be a walk in the park. Only when I start cutting the Noritren the hell broke loose. Although I do believe that I simply went too fast with the first two medication and now paying the price. 

 

So far 7-8 months after my last deduction I can say that I am getting better but baby steps. I can see I can do more but know back of my head that I still have a long way to go before I will be ready to start cutting again. I am hoping to come to a stage where I have no symptoms and my body and my mind is strong enough to take it. Only time will tell how the story will unveil itself

 

My main symptoms have been :

Pin and Needles type of feeling all over my body for several months which did not allow me to do any kind of physical activity or stress. I could only walk and sit. I was able to drive a car but not ride a motorcycle or run. Simply my nervous system was in stress and anything made it worse.

Anxiety - I was afraid of my own shadow

Depression - sometimes in the same day with anxiety was the worst

Muscle tension - upper body, face, jaws 

Ear pain - so bad that many times I was thinking to take pain killers although this is a no no 

Heart palpitation - come and go ended up in the emergency and did an entire heart check. My resting pups was 120 standing 160 bpm 

Irritation - any light, sound touch shoot me to the moon

Lightheadedness - may times I felt like I am going to pass out but didn't 

Difficulty to fall a sleep and sleep through the night. 

I put on wait at least 10 kg plus 

Many others and often combination of any of the above

 

The bottom line is that since I have started to cut I am unable to tell how I am going to feel next day or in next 1h. Making it impossible to plan anything etc. 

 

However, I feel more grateful for every day when I feel touch better and I value things more than ever before. I don't take anything for granted and I don't sweat the small stuff! 

 

As you said it is a learning curve and we have to find the way how to navigate through the rough water to a safe sailing! Thank you again for sharing these intimate details of your battle it helps a lot! 

 

Anytime you need to talk I will be happy to listen  

 

[Iman]

@ADWarrior

Hello there again my dear mate. 😃 I trust u're in good shape and health. As you correctly noted, i had problems and big side effects caused by the drug from the get-go. That puts me at a disadvantage as many of our fellow sufferers here merely complain about the wd caused by tapering or not taking the drug while my case involves side effects and wd at the same time. Anyway, i hope it's reason enough to know that ur situation is a whole lot more bearable than mine. Still, i find ways to cope, everyone does and those who don't should do and can do. Never worry urself about what Mr. X went through which was horrible or what, ur sentisized brain will do anything to catasrophize even the simplest of events so don't feed it. Just keep instilling into ur brain that everybody in the their deepest suffering will eventually find a way to get better and they do with enough patience. I for one experienced every single symptom Mr. X or Mrs. Y went through and still keep experiencing some every now and then but I guess I'm allowing myself to grow accustomed to these unwelcome friends until they some time in future go away for good. Keep focusing on ur smallest improvements, they count tons, ur brain expects a celebration for every single step it takes towards recovery so make sure to give it what it deserves, reward it with something no matter how small it is. A gloden version of life awaits you once u're done with these poisonous stuff, for now just learn to cope and count ur achievements either big or small toward recovery. I'm always there for u. Anytime u think i might be of any help, just say the word. 🤗😊🖐💪

[ADWarrior]

@Iman

 

thank you for your positive message - as always!

 

I have a new respect for you and the road you have to travel. I know it is tough as it is to get of this poison if you are doing everything right but to have the side symptoms from the medication is another challenge to conquer! I am following all your wisdom and focusing on my case as we are all individual cases  and celebrating every small achievement. Every day is a blessing ( I am not religious) and I am not taking it for granted. 

 

I have not much to say just to let you know that I am thinking of you every time I feel down knowing that I still luckier than many others. I appreciate you are sharing your adventure with me! 

 

I will keep in touch and hoping that you will be able to decrease the doze at least by 1% slowly! 

 

All the best my friend 

 

[Iman]

@ADWarrior

 

I really appreciate your kind words. They're soothing and pretty healing. I follow your progress as well, this peer support and synergy is a real strong motivator and incentive in us AD warriors(as you beautifully put it). I'm about to go ahead with a 5% cut in a few days as the 1% cut,quite thankfully, didn't prove problematic and symptomatic withdrawal-wise. Still constantly in grips with the direct side effects of Nori poison but no WD symptom in the 1% try. I had a few difficult nights sleep-wise but managed to mitigate the issue with a few sips of rose water and milk thistle. A mountain to climb, just don't let your physical brain overcome your mind and who you are. Our brains are like uneasy babies constantly in need of caring and being soothed, this by itself is interesting once you undertake the responsibilty of caring for a baby until it grows enough to be able to stand on its own feet. Rock on champ and stay strong. 👍👏💪😊 sending lots of healing vibes.

[Tranquilpeace]

Hello fellas, 

 

I am new here. I recently began experiencing the withdrawal symptoms of Nortriptyline. I have read through much of this thread and feel some relief seeing some of the things you also experience 

 

I was given nortriptyline to prevent migraine headaches. I had no idea it was an anti depressant and something that could completely destroy a person's mind the way it has mine.

 

I started with 10 mg a day before bed and increased to 30 over the course of a month per my neurologist. At 20mg I began severe nightmares insomnia and intrusive thoughts especially about the people I love the most!  It was the most gut wrenching horrifying experience of my life. This led to suicidal thoughts, I know I don't want to die and I don't want to hurt anyone! My job is to protect everyone! But I became afraid of my own kitchen knives!

 

I immediately messaged my neuro. She said to stop the medication immediately. I had been taking it for about 4 1/2 weeks. I stopped cold turkey and the symptoms only continued. The first 5 days were God awful. I am now 12 days off the medication. And I have highs and lows like no other. And when it's low, my God it's low.

 

I have lost probably about 15 pounds I am hungry as all else but no appetite. The intrusive thoughts go away and get easier, but then when my anxiety sky rockets out of no where they come slamming back in so damn brutally I don't have the words. This leads to a pretty depressive state. And though I have had bright spots and windows I feel like it's never going to end.

 

I am a very passionate very loving man. My life is centered and revolves around my wonderful wife and children. My beautiful daughter. And this medication literally tried to turn my mind to take that from me as the intrusive thoughts part goes.

 

I have lost all my ability to feel love or any emotion aside from fear and sadness. Which is the worst part I have ever experienced in my life. Because the love of my daughter and wife has always been what keeps me going every single day.

 

Due to the medication actually causing the problems initially I was terrified to reinstate the poison and because I have made it this far I am horrified to reinstate to face this all over again. I am surviving, alive, but not living. Just barely getting by.

 

My neuro swore it was a "pathetic" dose of medication and was such a short time on it I wouldn't have an issue. She was obviously wrong. I am trying to take it day by day but boy when the wave crashes down on me it feels so impossible to make it through. The physical aspects of withdrawal I am toughing out (diarrhea like a mf, tired, lethargic the classic stuff) but the mental cognitive and emotional side effects that NO ONE IN THE HEALTH COMMUNITY seems to want to acknowledge are what's destroying me.

 

I have wanted to go to the Dr. But there is now way I am going to allow them to send me down the big pharma rabbit whole of trying different medication over and over to treat side effects from another medication. So I am toughing it out and fighting like hell through it. I am trying to get my brain chemistry back to normal and back to baseline but man it's a mission

 

I had no idea these drugs could do things like this, I have never been a fan of big pharma but I had no idea this could be the results of a bad reaction. My neuro said this will be the case for a few weeks. I hope that's all it is but after doing research I see it's very commonly not the case. I had no idea about the FDAs black box warning about the medication either as if I had known I wouldn't of ever risked it. I would of delt with the migraines as they came. I am not on Botox for migraines which has been wonderful. I would of gone with that a million times over before dealing with this poison.

 

If you guys have any advice or encouragement or positivity from your experience God I would love to hear it.

 

I wish you well on your journey success and love! I appreciate this community so much once I found it

[ADWarrior]

@Tranquilpeace

Thank you for sharing your story! I am sorry you are going through this as well. I have been put on mix of medication and withdrawing from it all it is taking a lot of time and effort not to mention the pain and suffering that comes with it. 

 

I do not consider myself an expert and I believe there are many others here who would be able to navigate you to the answers. However few points to start you with. 

 

1. What you are experiencing is not you but the drugs! All you have described I have been through and it is tough. 

2. Educate yourself as much as you can about this and talk to your family and surrounding as they will need to help you and it is very hard to understand what you going through. Watch some Youtube videos and show them to your family. 

3. There is no way of telling how long it is going to take and what symptoms you are going to have. However since you have been taking it for very short time I only assume it might not be as hard to get through it. ( I am not an expert in this area) 

4. If you looking for answers or other people going through this don't limit yourself to this particular name of the drug as other groups of medications have similar effect ( benzodiazepines, Antipsychotics and antidepressants) 

 

My conclusion on your case. Hang in there it gets better with time. It might take longer for your nervous system to get back. Imagine that a building gets half destroyed by an attack but people still live there while the repairs are in progress. This is your nervous system so give it time to heal while it is maintaining your daily activity. Do anything you can not to take this or any of the above mentioned medication to ease your symptoms as they are used as band aid and not as a cure. Unless your intrusive thoughts will get out of hand - that is the only time I would seek another medicine. ( Again I am not an expert just stating what I would do after 4 years of being on this type of medication).  

 

I am not even sure if some of the things I have stated above are not against the rules of this forum. If they are I was not aware and my intention was to share my thoughts to help. 

 

If you have any specific question don't hesitate to ask. Hang in there if for anything then for your daughter as that gets me through tough moments during the recovery. 

 

 

 

Edited June 9, 2023 by Karma
Name update

[Tranquilpeace]

Hey man thank you for the response, sorry it took me a while to get back to you.

 

I can't tell you how much I appreciate the response, this situation left me feeling like a child does when they are lost. Just completely afraid so your response meant a lot.

 

Thankfully as the days are going by it is getting easier, I initially had the thought "oh my God my mind is getting use to these thoughts I'm becoming evil" which lead to an entire new battle in my mind.

 

But it is getting better day by day very slowly. Quieter and easier to dismiss the intrusive thoughts. The suicidal thoughts diminished massively and is no longer something I am freaking out about 

 

I have worked around the mental health crowed my entire career and never understood what people were saying about these medications. 

 

I am a religious man a Christian, and all I can say is all of the things this medication did to me were pure utter evil. Everything I am as a man and person was like flipped against me. I all the sudden felt like evil, all the things that drive me everyday in life were things my mind was seeing awful. It was like a bad trip, I have never really done illegal drugs but in high school I tried marijuana and it was a very bad experience. When the waves hit me even now especially any time I suddenly wake up from sleep it very much feels like a bad trip.

 

I finally am not feeling like I'm in third person if that makes sense. And some emotional response has returned, it definitely misfires like crazy!! As my emotional response (when the emotions are there) is a bit over the top for me.

 

At the end of the day when I make it through this I will be educating many of my coworkers and family members on these drugs. I am very very upset my neurologist didn't go over the warning signs over akathesia and what to look for, as I now look back I very literally immediately had very bad side effects from the begging with this medication. I have never had mental health problems anxiety or panick but this drug in a very short time introduced me into the darkest days I have ever been through. I never imagined it could do the things it did and so quickly. Very powerful very dangerous and very frightening.

 

I appreciate all of your information and I implanted it as soon as you responded to me and your encouragement meant a great deal. I see a light at the end of the tunnel.

 

I don't want to sound disrespectful because so many people on here have gone through so much more and so much worse, and may God grant you all peace and guidance and comfort through that journey. Cause man, there are truly no words to accurately describe to any one what those dark days are like with these kind of medicines. Or tonsescribw the process in which you go through just to recover from them.

 

If you ever need anything for what it is worth I am here my friend, my eyes are looking at this stuff in an entire new light... But we got this

[ADWarrior]

@Tranquilpeace

 

Great to hear that you feel better and I am very happy to know that the message helped

 

Here I would like to mention that the way the recovery works is not linear and you most likely will experience some ups and downs ( windows and waves). I hope it won't happen but please don't be surprised if some weird symptoms show up in few days, weeks or months. It is still the medication and your body still needs some work to do to clean it from your system. I hear people even after 9 + months getting symptoms out of nowhere. Just take a deep breath and let it pass if by any chance it comes. 

 

As on educating other people I have learned that most healthy individuals will have difficult time to understand what we are going through and it might bite you in the ass. I am not saying don't talk about it but be selective who you talk to. If you see they are not interested or feel sorry for you change the topic it is not worth it. You can only feed knowledge those who are hungry - others will classify you as mental or else. 

 

Since I have been on this medication my way of thinking has radically changed and I don't take any day for granted. I am super careful about what medication my family is taking and avoid taking anything not necessary for my kids. The medication industry has done a lot good but unfortunately it is not perfect. It is us to look after ourself and become our own doctor to the highest level we can and not rely on the system. 

 

Let us know in a month or two how you are doing so we can learn from your experience. 

 

Thank you 

 

 

 

Edited June 9, 2023 by Karma
Name update

[Tranquilpeace]

@ADWarrior

 

 

I hear you loud and clear on everything, especially the education. I have been guilty of that mindset in the past when talking to people (not without empathy) but with far to much judgement.

 

It's unfortunate that the pharmaceutical industry has turned into such a money making machine with only that mindset. 

 

The evidence is staggering in terms of adverse reactions and difficulties associated with these classes of medication(which I have now come to understand) 

 

If I had done the proper research and known what this drug was and it's risks, had been properly informed, or had understood the processes in it's actions in terms of the neurochemistry it changes, I never would of taken a chance in it period.

 

The side effects are less day by day. Eating is easier thank God. The panick attacks aren't as sudden or severe but they do still come.

 

Same is said with sleeping and nightmares. 

 

The main problem is the intrusive thoughts. And I want to be very clear I have never ever ever had any thoughts remotely close to that. I have lived my entire life with the belief of being a hero to help others, save lives, stop evil.

 

And when this medication took full effect it made my mind twist complete opposite and literally took away ally passions all my prides interests. And made me fear them which is just insane to me. 

 

And with my wife and babies I have never loved or needed something more in my life. My wife is my greatest victory in this life and my daughter brought me to my knees. 

 

This medication through my mind into like a place I can only describe as evil or a living hell.

 

It's much quieter and a bit easier to dismiss now. But now I face the new battles of my mind trying to reason with the thoughts if that makes sense. Such as things like " what if I did that? Could I do that? And I capable of that? Is that relief? Can I handle prison?" Etc.

 

All of which I will never allow to come to reality and is what lead to the suicidal ideations I have initially had.

 

Something so powerful to twist a mind like that against your heart and soul is very very scary. But I have come to understand everyone has intrusive thoughts but when your brain chemistry is healthy and where it needs to be it's usually unrecognized and tossed away. But because my neurochemistry is damaged altered and trying to rebalance, my ability to dismiss those kind of thoughts is not nearly as easy.

 

But with all this being said, the rainbow at the end of the storm so to speak I came to find out my wife before we were together was on heavy antipsychotic, a benzo, and some sort of antihistamine. She experienced different intrusive thoughts but went through similar to what we all deal with. And it has lead to a more powerful and beautiful relationship. 

 

And now in the healing process for example today I woke up so angry, an anger I have never dealt with before so that was new. And I do have the windows and waves. The waves are rough, send me right back to square one it feels like.

 

Being patient is very hard. And the other thing I am dealing with is I am very very angry with my neurologist for being so dismissive and for not advising me if any of these things or what to look out for, as well as the speed of the tapering up process to the medication which I have come to understand was far to fast.

 

And it subjected me to such a dark place I have never experienced one I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy and I truly mean that. It feels like it nearly took my life. Even just in the aspect of waking up one day and no longer  loving the things that are your purpose in life made me very angry the emotional blunting I have not yet fully recovered from. Sometimes I can feel that love and passion that makes me who I am, and just as quickly as I feel it, it's gone again. Also a lot of misfires like crying over a YouTube video of a puppy licking her owner 😂🤣 it's kind of comical but this roller coaster ride is something else.

 

I don't know if these things are normal or things you can relate to.

 

But again brother I just want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for taking the time to respond to me. It has meant a great great deal

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ADWarrior]

@Tranquilpeace

I am sorry about my late reply. 

 

I fully understand what you are going through and I could not be more sympathetic. You are lucky that your partner can understand what you are going through and can help you. 

 

I hate panic attacks but would like to remind you that it will be over soon or later. The intrusive thoughts are the toughest to deal with and if they are under control the other symptoms will come and go. 

 

The one thing I start doing when experiencing symptoms is to keep a diary where I would put how I feel and what symptoms I experience just for future reference. Sometimes our mind gets fogy and we don't remember how hard it was and how much better it gets with time even with baby steps. 

 

My diary would look something like this

 

5th November Saturday

Morning - woke up early with some scary dreams but fell a sleep again no symptoms to point out

Lunch - tension in my back muscle and fun tingling feeling 

Afternoon - little fatigued but OK can get through the day

Evening - Feeling good went for a walk just little shaky but OK

Night - went to sleep OK felt good 

Day summary some light symptoms but day was OK 

 

I have done this for almost 1 year and I have a lot of data to tell me how many OK /good/bad days I had so I can see things are getting better. As well I can reference which symptoms are repeating and how is it limiting me or what does it really mean. 

 

Usually if I put it down on a paper I feel like I can forget about it and I don't worry too much. I can go back and I go yes that was bad day or yes this symptom was so much stronger to what it is now. 

 

Again, give your body a break DO NOT add to the fire by being anxious or angry at someone or something. Of course I get irritation spells when I can't control myself but I always tell myself it is not me it is the medicine. I explain it to my kids and people around me and apologize if I feel I need to. 

 

This medicine would test you and you have to be strong to win the fight. I was having a counseling sessions with a Anxiety specialist once a month for over 1 and 1/2year  who told me many techniques on how to deal with the symptoms and how to deal with our own stress. Of course I am unable to put it all down here but if by any chance you would be interested I would be happy to drop her details after checking with the forum if that is even possible. 

 

You are not evil and what you are experiencing is the drug although it sound sometimes impossible. It does hijack your body and mind. 

 

I cry all the time to the point I stoped hiding it. If you need to just cry it will make you feel better it is nothing wrong with it  

 

 

 

Edited June 9, 2023 by Karma
Name update

[Tranquilpeace]

@ADWarrior

 

No worries on the replies, I appreciate your time and response very greatly and everything you have said I apply in one way shape or form.

 

My biggest battle is the intrusive thoughts, the windows and waves suck. When the waves hits it hits. For the past three days the intrusive thoughts returned very very hard, to the point where everything I see my mind turns into some horror show of me causing harm. They are by far the hardest part of this entire situation and ignite all the other symptoms to their worst. Physically the discontinuation syndrome is pretty much gone.

 

But the nightmares and intrusive thoughts persist and are very very difficult to deal with. The other issue I am having is just pure lack of emotion. Sometimes as I said before I have some and I have misfires. But 80 to 85 percent of the time I feel nothing which is driving me nuts.

 

I am a very very passionate and loving man. My wife and children are the light of my life. And to feel so numb to them is by far the worst.

 

The intrusive thoughts are very hard because they evolve from ABC to XYZ which just triggers another panick and worry of things such as "is my relief to let this happen? Am I going to loose it? Wait am I making a plan to act on this?" Etc 

 

All of which slowly dissipates after awhile and I understand that's damage the medication caused.  But during the sudden onset of the intrusive thoughts it's utter disgust, fear, and panick. The intrusive thoughts are what make you feel very isolated and alone cause to talk about them is just torturous not to mention the fear of seeing a Dr.

 

I cannot wait for that symptom to finally subside completely. As it does get much quieter and easier to dismiss on my good days. Just got to keep trucking