Bego82: withdrawal hell and best wishes to all

[Bego82]

Hello to all the lovely people in this forum.

 

I am here because I have been experiencing withdrawal symptoms since I stopped taking Venlafaxine eight months ago. I withdrew from 225mg in a span of six weeks as my GP recommended, which is too quickly. After seven months of hell I started taking Mirtrazapine following my psychiatrist’s advice after hesitating for a while. I started on 15mg last month, recently increased to 30mg and now I can sleep better and don’t have horrendous panic attacks as I wake up anymore. But the sheer terror, the absence of positive emotions, the constant negative thoughts, the rapid heartbeat, the chest pain, the hypersensitivity, the lack of energy, the anger, the dread about everything, etc… are still there, especially in the mornings when I just don’t want to live anymore.

 

I am here now because I have lost hope on my recovery. I’ve tried everything and I also feel as if I’d stripped my brain off its own ability to produce “happy chemicals” by tapering off too fast. But that may be just the “depression” talking. 

 

I’ve read that reinstating Venlafaxine can help, which brings some hope regardless the fear of taking that stuff again, and my psychiatrist is happy to put me on that (aren’t they always?). But I don’t feel that I can trust doctors anymore, so before making any decision I just wanted to ask real people with real experiences... I’ve got so many questions because I’ve been so alone throughout this process wondering whether my brain can heal on its own or not, wondering if there is any way of living life again.  

 

I’ve really tried to keep going but now I am exhausted. I just can’t do it on my own.

 

Maybe it’s worth noting that I’ve been also taking beta blockers, and also Aminoacids (5HTP, Tyrosine, GABA) along with a lot of vitamins and supplements such as Magnesium, Lithium Orotate and fish oil following a book that I found on the internet called “The Mood Cure”. 

 

Thank you for your time.

All the best x

 

B

Edited November 24, 2021 by ChessieCat
resized font and added spacing

[Kiasofia]

Welcome @Bego82

I am sorry you are going through this and are suffering, but relieved you have found us. This forum is run by others like you who have been through and survived, or are surviving, the negative effects of psychiatric drugs.

 

Thank you for creating a drugs signature. The fact that you have gone on and off several psychiatric drugs and recently introduced a new drug makes the decision of whether or not to try reinstatement of venlafaxine difficult. Starting and stopping psychiatric drugs is bad for the central nervous system (CNS). Each time we start and stop it becomes more and more sensitized. Because of this it is also important to be careful with supplements.

More information here:

Important topics about tests, supplements, treatments, diet

 

Reinstatement is best done immediately upon appearance of symptoms, and ideally within three months of quitting. The more time that passes, the less likely it is to work. Here is some information about reinstatement to help you decide if its something you want to consider:

About reinstating and stabilizing to stop withdrawal symptoms

 

Unfortunately medical professionals have a poor understanding of how these drugs affect people. I found this post helpful to understand how these drugs actually work and why healing takes time:

How Psychiatric Drugs Remodel Your Brain

 

When we recover, there are times of feeling OK mixed in with times of feeling bad.  This is called windows and waves.

The Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization

 

Here is our symptoms and self care section, you may find some useful ideas to help manage symptoms as you recover. 

Symptoms and self care topics

 

I've given you quite a bit of information here. Please read through it, and think about it, and we will take it from there. In the meantime, take care of yourself, and take heart.  We in this forum have been through this, and we understand first hand the pain and discomfort you are going through. Please know that the brain is amazing in it's healing abilities. It takes time, but healing can and will happen. 

 

This is your Introductory topic, where you can ask questions and connect with other members.  We're glad you found your way here.

Edited November 26, 2021 by Kiasofia

[Bego82]

Thank you for your answer, it is a big relief for me to feel that somebody is supporting me after the negative experiences I had so far with several psychiatrists and different counsellors. I also appreciate all the links that you’ve sent me, I have reviewed them now and have been quite helpful to identify and delimitate some questions. My main doubt is where should I move from here; in one hand I understand that many months have passed since I quitted Venlafaxine so it’s less likely that reinstatement will help, but on the other hand I feel like I am not progressing much or perhaps is just the waves as described in one of the threads. Also I am now scared that the Mirtazapine is going to remodel my brain and will make me relive the same nightmare times two, so I am inclined to star tapering now that I am only 8 weeks down… but I’m concerned that it’s going to create some symptoms that will overlap with the Venlafaxine PWS.
I am wondering If I:

-          should reinstate Venlafaxine and if so before or after tapering off Mirtazapine, after stopping it completely or after reducing to 15mg?

-          should not reinstate Venlafaxine and be confident that my brain will heal not that further away in time

-          should start tapering off Mirtazapine now before it’s too late and make the decision about Venlafaxine later on. Considering that I have started recently, is it better to taper off quicker than a 10%/month before my brain gets remapped completely, or the risk of withdrawal symptoms is greater that the potential gain and should still do it that slowly? I’ve only been on 30mg for 6 weeks now.

 

In my previous post I forgot to mention that I am also taking beta-blockers and I am not sure if you have any knowledge or experience about them. I started taking them to control the rapid heartbeats guided by my doctor….

 

I am really at a loss here, I am confused about what should I prioritize and how to do it.

 

Thank you kindly again for your guidance and support.
 

All the best x

[Kiasofia]

I'm glad the links were helpful. The "brain remodeling" means that the brain adapts to the drugs. It is individual how long this takes, but for most people it happens within 4 weeks. So after two months it is advised to test your dependency by doing a 10% reduction and waiting a few weeks to see how you react. Our advise to reduce by 10% every 4 weeks is a harm reduction approach. Some can go faster, but some need to go slower. At this point it's best not to panic and try to get off Mirtazapine "before it's too late" and instead see how you handle small reductions.

 

How did raising the dose from 15mg to 30mg make you feel? Why was the dose increased?

 

So we can easily see how many weeks you have been on each dose, can you please add to your signature:

The date you started Mirtazapine 15 mg

The date you increase to 30mg

Also add when you started beta blockers and dose

 

I personally don't know much about beta blockers, but if your heartbeat is caused by withdrawal (which is likely) it doesn't make sense to take beta blockers. They require the same tapering precautions as psychiatric drugs when quitting. (10% of current dose every 4 weeks)

Tapering Alpha Blockers or Beta Blockers

 

My thinking is, if you start tapering Mirtazapine and this triggers withdrawal, then the brain will be even more sensitized than it already is and reinstating venlafaxine then will be even more risky. So I think, if you do wish to try reinstating venlafaxine, it is best to do it before tapering Mirtazapine. With all the changes that have happened and the time since you quit, it should be a very small dose reinstatement. Less than 5 mg. Do you still have Venlafaxine? Is it the kind with beads?

 

Did you read the link about supplements? Some people in withdrawal react badly to B-vitamins and they are often in multivitamins.

[Bego82]

Thank you for your quick response and for sharing your point of view.
I still have not been able to make up my mind, unable to evaluate the correct course of action. I cannot decide between reinstating venlafaxine or keep trying in the same way I am doing at the moment… Basically my symptoms start about the time that I used to take the Venlafaxine, around 11 am every day, when it’s just horrendous, and then gradually start improving after 15:00ish until about 21:00 at night when I finally feel okay until the next day at 11ish when it all starts again… only half an hour before that I feel amazing, almost in peace and content and then bam, back in the black hole… This cycle repeating everyday is so exhausting I can’t even find the words. It makes me not wanting to go to sleep, let alone wanting to wake up again… It makes me wonder whether my brain is still craving for that substance after eight months of not taking it, even whether it’s capable to keep going without it at all.
And that’s the reason why I am considering the reinstatement. I’m terrified of taking that drug again and getting worse, or shocking my brain with the combination of it and Mirtrazapine (I’m also very sensitive to drugs), or going through the same nightmare once I start tapering off again. If only I knew that I will eventually recover just by fighting like I am... But I don't, and I’m tired.

 

About the increase of the Mirtazapine dosage; it was just a way to cope with my partner’s upcoming head operation back in October, my mental health was beyond bad and I couldn’t have gone through that on my own.
It’s a very mellow drug (in comparison with the Venlafaxine) with a potent sedative effect. It was prescribed by my psychiatrist initially to calm my central nervous system, 15mg didn’t seem like enough and now I regret that I went up. It makes me very sleepy, especially during the day, and I feel like it’s numbing my mind in different ways. It’s also made me a bit angry, irritable and somehow detached… I appreciate the fact that it’s numbed my constant panic attacks and allowed me to sleep though I feel like this dose is too high for me.

 

The Venlafaxine tablets I have are prolonged released, 37,5mg, small and round without scored line, so it would be difficult to take the same small quantity every day. Should I request different ones?

 

I’ve been reading about the waves and windows which I found interesting. I had a couple of days last week when I didn’t feel so awful at 11, was that a window?
Do waves and windows last hours or is it more like days?

 

I read what you sent me about the supplements and the ones that I am taking should be ok and are actually helping me, so I would say that I am safe in that area. I have changed the signature now as requested.

 

Many thanks x

[ChessieCat]

35 minutes ago, Bego82 said:

Do waves and windows last hours or is it more like days?

 

Waves are periods of time, no matter how long, that you feel a bit better than you had been feeling.

 

Sometimes it can be a few moments when things do not feel as bad.  You might find it helpful to keep note of when this happens.  When we are in a wave it can be hard remembering the times when we felt some improvement.  Having a list of the times when you felt a bit better can be encouraging.

[ChessieCat]

42 minutes ago, Bego82 said:

The Venlafaxine tablets I have are prolonged released, 37,5mg, small and round without scored line, so it would be difficult to take the same small quantity every day.

 

Post #1 of the following topic explains how to get non standard doses:

 

tips-for-tapering-off-effexor-and-effexor-xr-venlafaxine

 

[Kiasofia]

14 hours ago, Bego82 said:

I still have not been able to make up my mind

Understandable, especially since Mirtazapin is causing side effects. I suggest doing a few days of symptom tracking and posting it here daily and then we can evaluate.

 

Example template:

6 a.m. Woke with anxiety
8 a.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro
10 a.m. Stomach is upset
10:30 a.m. Ate breakfast
11:35 a.m. Got a headache, lasted one hour
12:35 p.m. Ate lunch
4 p.m. Feel a bit better
5 p.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro
6 p.m. Ate dinner
9:20 p.m. Headache
10:00 p.m. Took 50mg Seroquel
10:20 p.m. Feeling dizzy
10:30 p.m. Fell asleep
2:30 a.m. Woke, took 3mg Ambien (NOT "took 1/2 tablet Ambien")
2:45 a.m. Fell asleep
4:30 a.m. Woke but got back to sleep

6 a.m. Woke with anxiety (but less than yesterday)

[Bego82]

On 12/8/2021 at 10:11 PM, ChessieCat said:

 

Waves are periods of time, no matter how long, that you feel a bit better than you had been feeling.

 

Sometimes it can be a few moments when things do not feel as bad.  You might find it helpful to keep note of when this happens.  When we are in a wave it can be hard remembering the times when we felt some improvement.  Having a list of the times when you felt a bit better can be encouraging.

Thank you ChessieCat, I will take notes then. Congratulations on the end of your journey, what a massive achievement, it must feel amazing. 

 

@Kiasofia I’m making a diary as you advised. Please let me know if there’s more I should report.

Yesterday’s entrance:

 

10 a.m. aminoacids* and holy basil 

11:30 a.m. panic, terror, depression

14:00 aminoacids. feel slightly better

15:00 lunch. Feeling very anxious and depressed.
16:00 beta blockers 10mg (later than usual).

18:00 aminoacids

20:30 after yoga class I can experience joy and I feel more at ease

21:40 Mirtrazapine 30 mg

22:00 dinner

22:30 start to feel sleepy and peaceful 

1:00 a.m. off to sleep

 

 

List of aminoacids*: 75mg 5HTP, 500mg L-Tyrosine, 1000mg L-Taurine, 400 mg L-Theanine (sometimes), 500mg D-Phenylalanine, and a blend of all the aminoacids. 
I also take 16 mg Lithium Orotate along with them. 4 times a day all except for the Tyrosine and the amino blend which is just first thing in the morning.

[Kiasofia]

Thank you @Bego82 (make sure my name turns blue when you use the tag function otherwise it hasn't worked). Also write when you take lithium orotate in the diary.

[Bego82]

Thanks @Kiasofia. Anything you need me to clear up or explain please let me know. Also if you need more info (supplements, habits, etc…).

I take Lithium Orotate with the amino acids 3x day and right before going to sleep. 4 times a day in total.

Here’s yesterday and today:

 

10:30 a.m. take aminoacids

11:00 a.m. take holy basil. Wake up

11:30 a.m. panic & depression starts but a bit easier than the day before 

14:00 take aminoacids & beta blockers 

15:00 lunch. Very depressed and anxious

18:00 aminoacids

20:00 finally feeling better 

21:30 take Mirtrazapine 30mg. Feeling good

22:30 dinner

2:30 a.m. take Lithium Orotate and magnesium and go to sleep

 

10:00 a.m. aminoacids

10:30 a.m. panic and terror starts earlier and it’s bad. Very depressed as well

11:30 a.m take holy basil and wake up

14:45 take aminoacids and beta blockers. Still very very poorly. Headache

18:30 take aminoacids

21:00 mood starts improving  a little 

21:40 Mirtrazapine 30 mg

Have a lovely weekend,

B

[Kiasofia]

Thank you! @Bego82

The important thing is to record all symptoms (also how you slept) and show when all supplements and medications are taken (including vitamin, fish oil, magnesium etc).  Did you notice a difference in symptoms when you reduced the beta blocker in October? In what way do you feel the supplements, amino acids and lithium orotate are helping you?

 

Note down when and for how long these symptoms last:

On 11/24/2021 at 4:48 PM, Bego82 said:

sheer terror, the absence of positive emotions, the constant negative thoughts, the rapid heartbeat, the chest pain, the hypersensitivity, the lack of energy, the anger, the dread about everything, etc… are still there, especially in the mornings when I just don’t want to live anymore.

And these:

On 12/8/2021 at 10:30 PM, Bego82 said:

(Mirtazapine) makes me very sleepy, especially during the day, and I feel like it’s numbing my mind in different ways. It’s also made me a bit angry, irritable and somehow detached

 

It's good to see you are having times of feeling good❤️ Those are windows! They can last a few minutes, days, weeks. Make sure to continue documenting them in your daily notes.

 

I don't think I've asked; why did you quit Venlafaxine? And why were you advised to start Mirtazapine rather than reinstate Venlafaxine?

Edited December 12, 2021 by Kiasofia
Added question

[Bego82]

Thank you dear @Kiasofia. Those windows are most welcome, they feel like a summer vacation! I haven’t had any over the past few days, only at night.

It’s difficult to track my symptoms because they fade away rather that just disappearing… They arrive very bluntly every time I wake up in the mornings and leave very, very slowly as the day goes by. It feels like having a giant black hole in the middle of the chest and tummy, that shrinks very slowly until it fully seals at some point during the night.

 

I definitely noticed the symptoms of reducing the beta blockers. I was able to walk again (they made me extremely tired and dizzy for some reason) but they also gave me tremendous tachycardia! I still have fast heartbeat but not as bad as it used to be, thankfully… Yesterday I missed the dose and I realised at night that I had it though.

 

I’m not that sure about the supplements because the effects are not immediate, but the aminos and the Lithium help a great deal with my mood. The 5HTP and DPA act on serotonin and endorphins respectively, the LTheanine and LTaurine chill me out, and the Lithium stabilises my mood. They’re not as potent as I would wish, especially in the mornings when I’m at my worst, but I can definitely tell when I haven't had them, especially the 5HTP and the Lithium.

 

I quit the Venlafaxine under my GP‘s supervision because I’d been taking it for too long. To that point it was giving me migraines every day, along with other side effects, such as changes in my personality and in my perception.

It was my psychiatrist who prescribed the Mirtrazapine. She only suggested reinstating Venlafaxine last month when I had already been taking Mirtrazapine and only after asking her opinion about it. She said that she’s got a patient who takes both medications and that it may do me good. She prescribed 1/2 dose of 37.5 prolonged release tablets, which I never took… This is when I started looking for help online.

 

May I ask you if there’s such a thing like a rehabilitation plan, or maybe a list of things that we should/shouldn’t do while we recover? I suspect that all the problems that I’ve endured this year may have put it on hold, as if my brain couldn’t cope and in return I got even worse.

 

I was just wondering how do people deal with how lonely this condition is… Even my closest family member ignores its seriousness and even gaslights me into thinking that it’s not real 😔

It’s tremendous, I truly feel for everyone else that’s going through this.

 

Today’s entry:

2 a.m. went to bed. I was very agitated due to the missed beta blocker dose (I forgot to take it) so I couldn’t sleep until 4ish.

10 a.m. aminoacids. Try to go back to sleep 

but every time I wake up with the usual panic and dread

12 midday: wake up and breakfast with morning supplements*

13:00 I take beta blockers to stop rapid heartbeat caused by missing the dose yesterday

14:30 aminoacids. Already feeling better, less anxious but still depressed 

15:00 lunch 

18:00 aminoacids 

21:30 Mirtrazapine 30 mg

 

Morning supplements*: Julia Ross’ “True Balance” multi vitamin, Now Foods Omega3 fish oil 1000mg, Vitamin C 1000mg, Vitamin D3 400 I.U.
 

A million thanks x

[Kiasofia]

Windows, at night only, are still windows❤️ Make sure to note them down to remember them. It can be easy to look back and think we had no relief, when actually we did. Just a little bit.

 

14 hours ago, Bego82 said:

She said that she’s got a patient who takes both medications and that it may do me good. 

 

You can read more about the trend of prescribing these drugs together here:

About going off mirtazapine plus venlafaxine (Effexor) aka "California rocket fuel"

 

Not recommended. The decision to reinstate would be less complicated if Mirtazapine hadn't been started. And the beta blockers can also be a factor for your symptoms. And know that the venlafaxine dose she prescribed (1/2 dose of 37.5) is high for a reinstatement this long after you quit. You were right to research more online!

 

14 hours ago, Bego82 said:

May I ask you if there’s such a thing like a rehabilitation plan, or maybe a list of things that we should/shouldn’t do while we recover?

Have you read our Symptoms and self care topics ? It's very individual but some basics are; gentle (but not intense) exercise, no alcohol and ideally no caffeine or nicotine and be careful with supplements (especially B vitamins): Important topics about tests, supplements, treatments, diet 

Good advise for treating depression and anxiety naturally, doesn't always apply to withdrawal induced anxiety and depression. So it's worth checking this forum. To find things on the forum I find the easiest is to type "survivingantidepressants.org + what you're searching for" into a search engine.

Have you tried using a sleep mask? Some find it helps with the morning anxiety.

14 hours ago, Bego82 said:

I was just wondering how do people deal with how lonely this condition is… Even my closest family member ignores its seriousness and even gaslights me into thinking that it’s not real 😔

It’s tremendous, I truly feel for everyone else that’s going through this.

By joining online communities and learning that we are not alone! For me it has helped to learn as much as possible about these drugs. While for others that's just too upsetting. It can depend on where you are in the whole process. It might be too much for you now, but I sometimes suggest passing this link on to family and friends so at least they can learn more: http://cepuk.org/withdrawal-advisers/ And perhaps this mini documentary too https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p086fjk7.

[Bego82]

On 12/13/2021 at 12:48 PM, Kiasofia said:

Not recommended. The decision to reinstate would be less complicated if Mirtazapine hadn't been started. And the beta blockers can also be a factor for your symptoms. And know that the venlafaxine dose she prescribed (1/2 dose of 37.5) is high for a reinstatement this long after you quit. You were right to research more online!

 

Hi @Kiasofia. Thank you for sharing all those links and for your advice and guidance 🙏
I’ve been reading through the Californian cocktail link and although I haven’t seen much about the nasty possible side effects it really freaks me out, combinations of these sort of medications sound like a free passage to psychotown.
Them doctors are just so pill happy, as if we were made of wires and timber. They don’t reveal the real, scary side effects which I’m sure that combination has unleashed at some point. That’s why I’m hoping that I don’t have to reinstate Venlafaxine… That drug is so strong and the doses were so high that I’m truly hoping it hasn’t impaired my brain permanently from its ability to produce serotonin and other neurotransmitters. So taking it again really scares me.

Do you think that 5 years on 225 mg might have caused irreversible damage?

 

I agree with you that it is necessary to learn about these medications in order to understand this. I’ve got some family members who have gone through the same thing and I’m hoping that I can help them once I get better, if they decide to withdraw (again) at all…

My auntie had psychosis after taking and combining antidepressant after antidepressant and my mum herself takes lots of different things. She tried to withdraw from Sertraline during the summer without success, only to end up taking Escitalopram just to deal with the PWS, and then she ended up on Duloxetine because the escitalopram didn’t feel “enough”…  She takes it along with a fair amount of Xanax and also Ambien. Partly because of the belief as a doctor that pills are meant to fix everything, even moods, and that you can take as many as you want as long as you need without any further collateral damage 😔.

 

On 12/13/2021 at 12:48 PM, Kiasofia said:

 

Windows, at night only, are still windows❤️

 

Thank you. I didn’t see them as windows because I’ve been feeling better at nighttime from the beginning. I assumed that the withdrawal syndrome was less intense at night because I used to get my doses of Venlafaxine in the mornings, but maybe I was wrong and it’s indeed progress.

Monday’s entry:

10:30 a.m. aminos

11:30 a.m. start waking up. Severe depression, despair, anguish. Very tired as well.

12:00 wake up, breakfast and morning supplements

14:30 aminoacids and beta blockers 

18:00 aminoacids. Still feeling very anxious but less depressed. Stayed anxious all evening

21:30 Mirtrazapine 30 mg

1:00 a.m. go to bed

2:00 a.m. fall asleep 

 

Tuesday (window😊😞

10:00 a.m. aminoacids

11:15 a.m. wake up feeling considerably better than the day before

breakfast with morning supplements 

11:45 anxiety and depression start but it’s more bearable

14:00 aminoacids 

15:00 lunch. Feeling better already

18:00 aminos. Feeling good. Even making jokes 

21:30 Mirtrazapine 30 mg

4:00 a.m. fall asleep

 

Many thanks x

 

 

 

 

 

[Kiasofia]

Good to see you are having good moments! And even joking🙂

 

I'm not familiar with 5HTP, but have now read that it shouldn't be combined with drugs that effect serotonin, like Mirtazapine. You may want to taper off it. And I would advise against reinstating Venlafaxine while taking 5-HTP.

https://www.drugs.com/interactions-check.php?drug_list=1-10727,1640-0

 

We have a discussion about it here:

5-HTP (5-hydroxytryptophan) and l-tryptophan

And the owner of this site's comment here:

Supplements that act on serotonin

 

Also consider if the other supplements and vitamins are helping or might be contributing to symptoms. If the multivitamin has B-vitamins (most do) then it is advised not to take it during withdrawal.

 

4 hours ago, Bego82 said:

Do you think that 5 years on 225 mg might have caused irreversible damage?

Read up on "neuroplasticity". The brain is able to adapt and heal more than what was previously thought!

[Bego82]

19 hours ago, Kiasofia said:

 

Good to see you are having good moments! And even joking🙂

 

I'm not familiar with 5HTP, but have now read that it shouldn't be combined with drugs that effect serotonin, like Mirtazapine

 

Thank you @Kiasofia, it was great being able to joke again indeed. I’m hoping that more windows will come. 

You’re absolutely right, 5HTP and Mirtrazapine together can unleash serotonin syndrome (I actually had some symptoms once), that’s why I don’t take aminoacids at night. Leaving at least 4 hours in between is key. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

As I said on my previous post, I don’t intend to reinstate Venlafaxine because I’ve got family history.

About the supplements I had no idea that they could be harmful, hum… I’m just following Julia Ross’ advice through a nutritionist that I’ve been seeing… apparently taking extra B vitamin is essential towards recovering from withdrawal. Which symptoms should I be looking out for?

19 hours ago, Kiasofia said:

Read up on "neuroplasticity". The brain is able to adapt and heal more than what was previously thought!

That’s very interesting, I’d never heard of that before, good news for us! 
I hope that you’re near (or past) the finish line for your recovery.

Anything you need to know please ask x

 

Wednesday entry:

9:30 a.m. aminos 

12:00 woke up feeling awful and stayed like this all day. 

12:30 breakfast, took holy basil to lower cortisol and stop palpitations. It worked 

14:40 took aminoacids and beta blockers 

18:00 aminoacids

22:15 dinner

2:00 sleep

10:00 a.m. aminoacids. Woke up in a pitt of fear and remorse. Terrible panic, struggling to even breath 

 

 

[Kiasofia]

1 hour ago, Bego82 said:

About the supplements I had no idea that they could be harmful

It's very individual. Some will find a supplement is calming and helpful and others will say it is activating and makes them feel much worse. Here is an example of people reacting very differently: Vitamin B3 (niacin, niacinamide) Also the "withdrawal brain" tends to do better with lower doses than what is normally advised. But it's hard to know if a supplement/vitamin is causing symptoms (like anxiety) unless one introduces one at a time and monitors the reaction.

 

2 hours ago, Bego82 said:

I don’t intend to reinstate Venlafaxine

I think that is probably a good decision, considering all the factors.

 

Have you read this thread?

Waking with panic or anxiety -- managing the morning cortisol spike

[Bego82]

Hi @Kiasofia,

Please I need your help.

I’ve started a new box of Mirtrazapine and it’s had a much stronger effect on me than the previous one... It’s the same dose but a different brand. I took it the same way but I feel so floored, so drugged… It feels as if it was a much bigger dose. I’m terrified.
I want to quit this poison. What’s the fastest way I can taper off considering that I’ve been on it just for two months and a half? 
Thnx

[Kiasofia]

Oh, I'm so sorry this happened @Bego82

We have several cases of people reacting badly to switching brands. Is it possible to request the brand you were originally taking. It would be best if you could taper off the original one so you don't have to deal with reacting badly to the new brand, on top of everything.

 

It is very individual how fast a taper can be. I suggest making a small reduction (10% is the guideline) and waiting a week to see if you get any withdrawal symptoms from that. It's better to make smaller reductions more often than a larger one all at once. At any sign of withdrawal symptoms - hold the taper.

What is withdrawal syndrome?

Dr. Joseph Glenmullen's withdrawal symptom checklist

[Bego82]

Thank you dear @Kiasofia

It was awful. They already felt extremely strong for my brain but this is just a whole new level…
I was so drugged I couldn’t even lift my cat, or even a finger, let alone speaking or walking straight.

 

I wish I’d never increased the dose… 😔

The problem is that if I reduce 10% every 4 weeks I will be on this drug for at least 10 more months which is horrifying, and I only increased the dose two months ago... Isn’t it counterproductive to taper off for so much longer than the time that I’ve been on it? Do people normally taper so slow when they’ve only started a new drug?

 

Have a nice weekend

[Kiasofia]

1 hour ago, Bego82 said:

The problem is that if I reduce 10% every 4 weeks I will be on this drug for at least 10 more months which is horrifying, and I only increased the dose two months ago... Isn’t it counterproductive to taper off for so much longer than the time that I’ve been on it? Do people normally taper so slow when they’ve only started a new drug?

This is a common dilemma. Most doctors will say you can just quit after short exposure, and some people can. But others will get withdrawal. Since we have no way of knowing how each brain will react, and don't want to give advice that can do harm to some people, our standard advice is to go slow. Usually withdrawal symptoms appear within 1-2 weeks. Waiting 4 weeks is, again, a safety precaution because for some people it takes that long for symptoms to show up.

 

But you can decide to go faster if you wish. Usually at higher doses one can make bigger cuts.  Still, if you start by making a small reduction and you do get withdrawal symptoms, then you know you will have to go slow. If you don't get symptoms you may be able to do a larger and faster decrease. 10% is the standard guideline, but it is ultimately your decision what dose to reduce by.

 

I understand the dilemma and I wish I knew exactly how your brain would respond and could advise accordingly.

 

 Sending you warm wishes❤️

[Bego82]

Thank you for your warm wishes and your understanding and for your most valued advice dear @Kiasofia. It means the world to me, what you’re doing, helping us going through this solitary process, is invaluable...
I hope I can also offer a bit of a helping hand once I recover.

 

I will try to do the slow tapering and then if everything is okay I may try to go a bit faster.

I can’t believe that the medical sector has abandoned us this way. I wonder if the World Health Organization is aware of how dangerous these medicines are, and if so, why are they still allowing them…

I was watching a documentary on Netflix before about psilocybin mushrooms and how much they can help on treating depression… I was offered a trial by a hospital in London which I couldn’t do because I was taking Venlafaxine at the time (you can’t take both), and apparently they’re researching the substance with the goal of making a new type of antidepressant out of it. Are you guys aware of that? I’m hoping that means a new era of natural antidepressants rather than expensive laboratory poison.

 

Sorry I need to ask you, I have no clue on how to cut the pill to remove a small percentage and it sounds like a bit of a mission 😅 How do you do it? The tablets are standard almond shaped with a scored line.

 

Thank you kindly 🤗 

[Kiasofia]

15 hours ago, Bego82 said:

I can’t believe that the medical sector has abandoned us this way. I wonder if the World Health Organization is aware of how dangerous these medicines are, and if so, why are they still allowing them…

I have many thoughts about this without any definite answer. Anatomy of an Epidemic by Robert Whitaker is good to read to explore this more. I find the research on psilocybin interesting, and it seems to have potential for trauma therapy. However, I hope western medicine will shift away from focusing on treating symptoms, and rather focus on the root cause. If the depression symptoms are caused by gluten intolerance or hormonal birth control side effects, then being treated with psilocybin makes no sense. But if a person is dealing with trauma, then a few sessions with a therapist with the use of psilocybin might be helpful. I think it would be very risky to try if one's brain has been sensitized by withdrawal, though.

 

This post has info on tapering Mirtazapine and making smaller doses:

Tips for tapering off mirtazapine (Remeron)

 

Thank you for your kind words!

Edited December 19, 2021 by Kiasofia

[Bego82]

Dear @Kiasofia,

I hope that you’re great. 

I am still struggling but I’ve been feeling slightly better for a week or so which brings hope…

 

I was wondering how do people deal with the consequences of an explosion of neuroemotions. I’ve thought that maybe you could guide me on what to do when the guilt and remorse after a bout of anger so become unbearable… These awful neuro-emotions haunt me every day for no reason, especially as I wake up, but they become horrendous when I’ve had a situation with someone close and I just don’t know what to do with the hopelessness and the pain that they bring with them.

 

They are stuck in my brain which seems to scan for situations from either my present or my past with the only aim to bring more guilt, regret and remorse to my chest, even when I’ve had nothing to do with it from the moment I open my eyes in the morning, and it hurts so so much…

 

I’ve been constantly scapegoated, guilt tripped, gaslighted and manipulated by family members since I was very very little, aka my self esteem is practically non existent, so maybe that’s the trigger?

 

Many thanks and take care x

[Kiasofia]

I can identify with neuroemotions and how rough it is❤️ Been dealing with this lately actually. My main methods are:

Journaling - sometimes writing everything that pops into my head, sometimes writing a letter (I will never send) and air my grievances. I write by hand because it gets it out more than typing does, for me at least.

Getting out in nature - while practicing mindfulness 

Light jogging, yoga

Deep breathing (pranayama yoga, Wim Hoff)

EFT Tapping (The tapping solution app)

Meditation (Waking Up app)

 

Some threads to explore:

Acknowledge Accept Float

 

Non-drug techniques to cope with emotional symptoms

 

Dealing With Emotional Spirals

 

Shame, guilt, regret, and self-criticism

 

Coping with irritation, anger and rage

 

 

Have you reduced the Mirtazapine dose?

 

[Bego82]

Hi @Kiasofia,

I’m sorry that you’re dealing with neuroemotions too ❤️ It’s terrible isn’t it?

Well, at least we know that it’s not us but the syndrome…

 

Thanks a lot for sharing your techniques with me. I’ll have a look at the threads as well.

 

On 12/26/2021 at 7:18 PM, Kiasofia said:

Have you reduced the Mirtazapine dose?

No not yet, I’m scared of destabilising my nervous system even more, and getting worse... But maybe I should start soon, I don’t know…

 

Have a lovely day x

[Bego82]

Hi @Kiasofia,

I hope that you’re feeling well. 
I am not too bad myself, it’s been a rough couple of months but it’s also very dark and rainy here which never helps.

I am getting in touch because I am very willing to start tapering off the Mirtrazapine soon and I am looking for a bit of reassurance from the forum as this is such a mission. I’ve bought the scales, the mortar and pestle, the capsules and even the wee spoons hoping that’s what I need.

I hope that I got it right.

 

Finding the right dose for each capsule seems like an absolute mission, is there any tip that you can share with me?
If I do the 10% technique, will I still notice withdrawal effects?

And also, what is brass monkey’s Slide that so many people have on their signature? 
Many thanks x

[Kiasofia]

Hi @Bego82

It's a tough time of year here too. So it's hard to tell if my current low energy is withdrawal or what. But I'm hanging in there. Good to hear you are "not too bad" although it's been rough. 

 

I understand the tapering mission can be overwhelming. I'm not experienced with using scales for tapering (will use liquid-tapering myself), but other moderators, (and mentors and members) are, so there will be plenty of support to be found. Have you read this?

Using a scale to weigh and measure doses

 

You can read about the Brassmonkey slide method here.

The Brassmonkey Slide Method of Micro-tapering

It is a gentler method than reducing by 10% all at once. I will be using some variation of this since I'm very sensitive to drops. He used a scale and filled capsules for his taper too.

 

It is unlikely that an initial 10% reduction will cause withdrawal symptoms. 10% is a cautious reduction and 30mg is most likely an excessive dose for your brain. This explains why higher doses are easier to taper than lower doses:

Why taper? SERT transporter occupancy studies show importance of gradual change in plasma concentration

 

Wishing you a smooth taper as soon as you're ready❤️

 

[Bego82]

Hello @Kiasofia, how are you doing? I’m hoping that you’ve been making progress lately.
I am still hanging there, fighting and hoping that my nervous system will heal some time. 
 

Neuroemotions are still causing a lot of struggle and although they’re not remotely under control at least I’m learning to identify them. One thing that I cannot control is everything related to animal cruelty… I’m a big animal lover (no matter the species) and everytime I hear or read about something unfair towards them I just go down a dark spiral of tremendous pain and anger and anxiety that won’t even let me sleep... It’s quite awful, and I was wondering if this is something that more people may have as I’ve been desperately researching in the forum but haven’t found anything so far.

 

About the Mirtrazapine reduction I am planning to start next week, but given the current state of my nerves I’m a little bit concerned about whether it will be the best idea or not… Gosh, this is tough isn’t it? I’m treating myself with kids gloves, not even working at the minute, and still there is always something that will upset me to the extreme… My heart palpitations are really high most of the day, which doesn’t help either. I also wonder if there’s anything natural that can help with that since the beta blockers (which I’m tapering off from by reducing 10% every week) are not a healthy option.

 

I hope that you’re well and I send you my very best wishes on your own healing process. 

 

B x

[Kiasofia]

Hi @Bego82

I was actually thinking of you earlier today and wondering how you are doing. I think I was thinking of cats or something....Your avatar picture is so cute! I'm not my best these days and having trouble concentrating and processing information so I'm less active on the forum, but trying to at least answer those I currently correspond with.

 

Have you noticed any symptoms changes while tapering the beta blockers? I would wait to taper mirtazapine until you're done tapering the beta blockers. One thing at a time.

 

When did you first start having heart palpatations? As you take several supplements already I would be weary of adding in anything more, and not sure what that would be. Have you tried Epsom Salt Baths? Taking walks is also suggested.

 

[Bego82]

Hello @Kiasofia, I’m sorry that you’re feeling a bit low. I thought you’d be, us northerners have to endure long endorphin-deficient winters... but it will be gone soon as days get longer.

Thank you for the compliment 😊 The avatar is my cat, the love of my life.

I haven’t felt the effects of the beta blockers reduction at all thankfully, maybe because it’s from 10mg only, that’s why I decided to start with the Mirtrazapine’s soon. It’s not the nastiest antidepressant but it’s turning me into a zombie (I sleep 12 hours and then I’m tired all day, my brain is fogged, my legs hurt and it makes me very aggressive), so I’m a bit impatient. I’d do the Brassmonkey technique though, only 2.5% a week and after four weeks then 2 of stabilisation to avoid undesirable symptoms. What do you think? I’ve just finished grinding and weighing the first batch this very minute…

The heart palpitations started with withdrawal. The “animal cruelty fobia” is a lifelong trait that’s just gotten out of control…

I don’t go for long walks because I’m lazy but I’ve taken up on running, just 1-2k every day. I hate running but I had to do it just to have some serotonin in my brain in order to function, sadly.

 

I used to bathe with Magnesium salts (the lavender ones, bliss) but not anymore… is it good for us?

 

Thank you for being there for us, you are amazing… Please respond only when you feel like it (if you feel like it), you’re doing a lot already. Warm wishes x🌷

[Blossom71]

2 hours ago, Bego82 said:

I thought you’d be, us northerners have to endure long endorphin-deficient winters... but it will be gone soon as days get longer.

Hi @Bego82

I’m also a northerner and desperate for the days to get longer. I can’t bloody wait!!!! 😎

[Bego82]

Hi @Blossom71😀 how are you?

Yes the spring is almost there for us! And faster recovery. Sunset starts 2 minutes later every day, so in two weeks time the days will already be half an hour longer.

[Kiasofia]

Good job grinding and weighing! I think the Brassmonkey method is a good option. As slow and smooth as possible.

 

Heart palpatations is a very common withdrawal symptom that does subside eventually. It's horrible though, I know. I've had an increase in withdrawal symptoms and for the first time since my SSRI-withdrawal two years ago am getting some heart palpatations, but more often it's a very tight feeling in my heart.

 

I found Qi Gong and EFT-tapping can provide some relief.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZDCslmNHRI

 

And Epsom Salt Baths too. But I don't use as much as is suggested here:

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/8321-epsom-salts-baths-another-way-to-relax-with-magnesium/

 

Jogging can be good, but avoid pushing yourself with high intensity training during tapering. We are in a fragile state.

 

Best wishes!

[Bego82]

Thank you for your help and your advice dear @Kiasofia.

A friend of mine also told me about Qi Gong so if it helps with tachycardia I’m definitely going to give it a go.

So does the heartbeat goes back normal with time? That would be a dream come true… I just can’t experience a normal heartbeat anymore since my SNRI-withdrawal, it’s always fast or very fast and I wonder whether I’ll ever be able to experience inner peace ever again or not…

I’m sorry that yours are back. There is a herb that most people don’t know about that’s called ‘holy basil’ (technically ‘Tulsi’) that lowers cortisol as you take it and therefore slows heart palpitations. I don’t take it during the day because it makes you a bit sleepy but you can try during the night and see… I get it in Amazon for about £10 and lasts ages, especially if you divide them in two like I do. Here is the link if you want to try it, it’s not a benzo but it’s very strong and does make a difference (without being addictive)!:
Tulsi / Holy Basil Caplets (Ocimum Sanctum) - 750 mg,150 Counts | Respiratory Wellness https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B08JM5NJSL/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_i_A4PT6NJFS8FH93Y6Z3SK

 

So I started tapering off the Mirtrazapine on Monday. I feel better mood wise already for some reason which is good, but I’ve also noticed some nasty symptoms from the SNRI-withdrawal coming back like the extreme tachycardia in the late mornings (at the time that I used to take the Venlafaxine), the anxiety, and a sharp pain in my lower tummy from a condition that I thought I’d recovered from which is a bit discouraging. I’m also extremely sensitive but less Mirtrazapine-angry, less “fish-numb” and grudgy. I’ve only reduced 0.75 mg (2.5%) of the 30mg dose which is sooo little, so I wonder how am I going to feel as I reduce it more and more… I’m a bit scared to be honest.
Do you think that these might be just initial symptoms of the tapering, as if my nervous system got the “alarms on” and is giving me a temporary hard time or is it this going to get worse? My plan is to keep reducing the doses 2.5% every week.

 

Thank you 🌷