Ariel: protracted withdrawal and PAWS

[Oaktree1]

On 6/24/2022 at 8:12 PM, Ariel said:

Thank you, thank you Oaktree for providing shade and shelter.

(Not tagging so as not to overwhelm; I trust you will see this eventually. Btw please know that there is no obligation ever to post or reply to what I've written. Sometimes I can go on and on writing for hours and it helps me as a distraction; I would hate for it to feel like a burden on the receiving end. Please take care of your precious self first and foremost (let's support each other in practicing those boundaries). Is it taxing to be tagged? If so I can refrain.)

Hi @Ariel

 

Thanks for your message and hope to respond to your other queries about the ASD thing in a while.  Unfortunately since I last posted covid got back at me out of the blue and I have spent the last few days severely ill with nausea, severe vertigo and ...well it was so bad that I nearly went to the non existent A&E - plenty of meds now from emergency doctor and hopefully will be on the mend.. over the next week...but hence the news black out.  Too sick to even look at a laptop never mind posting.  I am glad to hear that you are enjoying hopefully a long window ...:) since

 

Oaktree

[Ariel]

Yesterday afternoon some cognitive/emotional/mental symptoms returned, albeit mildly. Today they're ramping up a bit, along with fatigue. 

The past three nights in a row I've slept about 5 hours straight through, decent quality rest. That's been quite lovely. 

 

I feel so grateful for Saturday's experience. I trust it will nourish me moving forward. Sustained release. 

 

Earlier today I watched a cat video I came across in another member's thread. It was irresistibly charming. I found myself sitting there with a big grin on my face. I don't usually seek out cute pet videos but this made me think maybe I should. 

 

A few hours ago I started feeling certain WD symptoms stirring in the background, and I noticed myself having this funny thought in response: Oh WD, you're so weird.

 

The thought was affectionate, it was like when you shake your head and smile and kind of shrug at the incorrigible antics of a child. This made me think of the cat video I had watched, how I had giggled and delighted in and embraced the feline weirdness. I thought: 

What if I could approach WD wonkiness with even a fraction of the unconditional acceptance that I felt towards those kitties?  

 

It was an interesting idea and I appreciated it gracing me. Not sure I'm articulating it properly here. It has to do with the tone and timbre of my innate immediate response to watching those cats frolic; and exploring the possibility of encountering the improbable and surprising strangeness of the WD experience with similar openness and lack of judgment. It's something I'll be inquiring into further and playing around with.

 

This month has been rough and tumble and mind-numbingly eventful in that unique WD way of: not much has happened on the outside, while on the inside I've journeyed through a veritable vortex of cosmos and chaos and black holes galore. I'm processing the experience(s) and sifting through the lessons.

 

Some of the things this past week has taught me:

 

a) Neuro-emotions can be positive as well as negative. This was a revelation, and very helpful to realize. 

 

b) WD is not me. I got a glimpse of what it might be like to be free and clear of WD and it is worth waiting for.

Non-WD reality is real and true. 

 

c) A single day can make a world of difference. I went from intense SI desperation to perfect okay-ness overnight (less than 6 hours). 

 

d) The cruelest trick WD plays on us is to convince us it's not there. This is a big one. The extent to which our condition lies to us and f*cks with our minds is beyond anything I've ever known. 

 

As I write this thunder is rolling in and I can hear the rain start to fall. I look forward to the heat and humidity lifting. 

 

Thank you for your kindness and support through it all. 

We're in this together. 

[Roserdl]

3 hours ago, Ariel said:

Yesterday afternoon some cognitive/emotional/mental symptoms returned, albeit mildly. Today they're ramping up a bit, along with fatigue. 

The past three nights in a row I've slept about 5 hours straight through, decent quality rest. That's been quite lovely. 

 

I feel so grateful for Saturday's experience. I trust it will nourish me moving forward. Sustained release. 

 

Earlier today I watched a cat video I came across in another member's thread. It was irresistibly charming. I found myself sitting there with a big grin on my face. I don't usually seek out cute pet videos but this made me think maybe I should. 

 

A few hours ago I started feeling certain WD symptoms stirring in the background, and I noticed myself having this funny thought in response: Oh WD, you're so weird.

 

The thought was affectionate, it was like when you shake your head and smile and kind of shrug at the incorrigible antics of a child. This made me think of the cat video I had watched, how I had giggled and delighted in and embraced the feline weirdness. I thought: 

What if I could approach WD wonkiness with even a fraction of the unconditional acceptance that I felt towards those kitties?  

 

It was an interesting idea and I appreciated it gracing me. Not sure I'm articulating it properly here. It has to do with the tone and timbre of my innate immediate response to watching those cats frolic; and exploring the possibility of encountering the improbable and surprising strangeness of the WD experience with similar openness and lack of judgment. It's something I'll be inquiring into further and playing around with.

 

This month has been rough and tumble and mind-numbingly eventful in that unique WD way of: not much has happened on the outside, while on the inside I've journeyed through a veritable vortex of cosmos and chaos and black holes galore. I'm processing the experience(s) and sifting through the lessons.

 

Some of the things this past week has taught me:

 

a) Neuro-emotions can be positive as well as negative. This was a revelation, and very helpful to realize. 

 

b) WD is not me. I got a glimpse of what it might be like to be free and clear of WD and it is worth waiting for.

Non-WD reality is real and true. 

 

c) A single day can make a world of difference. I went from intense SI desperation to perfect okay-ness overnight (less than 6 hours). 

 

d) The cruelest trick WD plays on us is to convince us it's not there. This is a big one. The extent to which our condition lies to us and f*cks with our minds is beyond anything I've ever known. 

 

As I write this thunder is rolling in and I can hear the rain start to fall. I look forward to the heat and humidity lifting. 

 

Thank you for your kindness and support through it all. 

We're in this together. 

Ariel

 

You have such a positive perspective.  I'm so glad you had a window..  That's really wild you just woke up from such an extreme negative state to just feel like yourself.  That must have been wild and probably took a few minutes to adjust.  Have you had windows before?

 

I'm glad that your returning symptoms are more mild!  I hope things continue to lift.

 

I'm trying to remember my Chinese horse farmer story and doing a bad job of it as I'm a control freak and even though I really think letting go and trusting will clear the path for me.  

 

I can imagine the longer this goes on, the harder it is to remember pre withdrawal realities.  It already frightens me that all I seem to know now is an ebbing pain or just detached calm.  

 

 

 

[Erell]

16 hours ago, Ariel said:

 

b) WD is not me. I got a glimpse of what it might be like to be free and clear of WD and it is worth waiting for.

Non-WD reality is real and true. 

 

d) The cruelest trick WD plays on us is to convince us it's not there. This is a big one. The extent to which our condition lies to us and f*cks with our minds is beyond anything I've ever known. 

 

This is huge. I have never experienced such window, so I'm extremely grateful to people like you who remind us these facts. Thank you for sharing, this is so important ❤️

[Healingcontinues]

I just caught up on your last few posts and my goodness what a whirlwind it has been for you the last week! I think you successfully endured a vast proportion of possible symptoms on WD spectrum in that time. Congratulation (for the enduring), it is no surprise you are tired. But, you are doing great!

 

The unpredictability of each day takes such a toll. It was only yesterday I was howling at the moon and a slobbery snooty mess. Today I have some peace even though puffy eyed and exhausted. We will get through this, and you are not alone in any of it lovely lady. 
 

 

[Sheera]

@Arielthanks for stopping by my thread!  ❤️I am so very happy for you that Saturday was such a delight!  It’s a sign you needed. I really hope you can use that day as a reminder that full healing will happen. ❤️  There is hope. 

Sheera

[Ariel]

Update/notes, for future reference:

 

Saturday - 5-6 hrs good sleep; window

Sunday - 5-6 hrs good sleep; morning window; afternoon symptoms rolling in, fatigue + cognitive/emotional/mental (F-CEM) -> WDnormal?

Monday - 5-6 hrs good sleep; F-CEM 

Tuesday - 5-6 hrs good sleep; increasing F-CEM

Wednesday - 5-6 hrs good sleep; increasing F-CEM

Thursday - 3 hrs rough sleep, 2am wake-up; back to sleep approx. 5-7am? tired this morning; F-CEM

 

Last night sleep was disjointed, labored. No full-blown nightmares but uneasy dreams; cortisol spike returned, albeit milder. Do not feel rested this morning. 

 

5 nights in a row of greatly improved sleep quality!

good sleep quality defined: slept through; no cortisol spike; feeling more rested upon waking; no nightmares; no restlessness/agitation

Feeling very grateful for this development. 

 

As previously established, I'm sh*te at knowing when there's a window, but feel it's safe to say Saturday was a window. 

Sunday brought rising symptoms, this as continued through till now. Window -> WDnormal?

If the past 4 days have been WDnormal this would signify a much-improved baseline.

 

Also noticing improvements with digestion and muscle efficiency*  

 

*originally posted elsewhere, collecting it here:

 

I've been noticing something I think is an improvement (curious to hear what you think): increased muscle efficacy/strength -- the opposite of muscle weakness. In other words, I feel like my muscles are working better!

 

This is remarkable to me because it's been a couple of years since I've been able to exercise properly, and I'm definitely in worse shape, much heavier with more fat and less muscle mass, than I was at the beginning of WD. I haven't been lifting weights or training, I can't do much at all. However I feel like my muscles work better. I've been noticing this on and off for the past few months. I still sometimes get muscle aches and extreme full-body fatigue, but it's like my muscles have more energy, more available resources to do what they need to do. I'm not sure how to describe it but it's pretty cool. 

 

This new experience is making me realize that I may have suffered from significant drug-induced muscle weakness for decades without even realizing it. I just thought how it was was normal. Now I'm thinking it probably wasn't normal at all! How else to explain that today I am much older, overweight, out of shape, with inadequate muscle mass, and still things seem to be working better? If it is indeed the case that I had muscle weakness side effects for most of my life, consider me retroactively offended. 

 

[unblocktheplanet]

Sorry, A. Still don't know how to quote. You describe a 'cortisol spike'. I've done a lot of research into this before I shifted focus onto ADs. Yes, my circadian cortisol rhythm was disrupted but the biggest problem was catecholamines--in my case, high adrenaline at night. And this was measured during a really deep window.

 

You might investigate taking 5 days of DATs (daily average temps). Use a mercury thermometer, cheap, ordered from a veterinary supply house. Three hours after rising (yeah, this is tough for the sleepless to accomplish), then plus three hours, and plus three hours. Add together, divide by three. If temps are 98.6 - 99, thyroid is adequate. If the averages differ by no more than 0.2°, cortisol is good.

 

If you really have some endocrine disruption, you'd be better off not doing cardio. Go for yoga or tai chi, Pilates, like that. Easy on YouTube.

 

Hm. The 'older' part has nothing to do with drugs, just feels that way, eh! I trust you eat a well-balanced diet, avoid junk foods aso?

 

I'm still learning about these, of course, but what I consider a window is when I can actually get sh*t done. Bangkok is a huge city (23 million) so one can really only accomplish one errand a day but I run around like a madman (well, yeah) picking up the loose ends I've put off while groping in the darkness.

[unblocktheplanet]

Dear A (hope my hearing loss doesn’t make that “Eh?”), I’ve been reading your medication sig with concern. You sure had a lot of polypharmacy & it took great courage to taper & wean.

 

I’ll let you in on a secret. My last big wave, a crushing tsunami, I had a suitcase packed for the psych ward: inpatient is an expensive proposition! Even considered ECT!

 

What troubles me, because I care about you deeply, is that you went drug-free in April 2021 & are still having big symptoms. Yes, some people take years to break out of these cycles (or never do), but I hope that’s not you (or me).

 

Funny, when we’re dropping daily poison, it’s called side effects. When they’re gone, it’s withdrawal. Sucks.

 

Without being presumptuous (moi?), I thought I’d tell you the bedrock foundation for healing I think has been the right path for me. Right fork or not, at least it’s regular, something I can hang onto, that one big branch when one is being washed away in the rapids.

 

- Love. Serve. Remember. You’ve got this one in spades already, Ariel, but it bears repeating to direct your awareness. It’s so obvious you love everybody, all of us, and serve us, support us, cheer us, bring us up when we’re brought down hard. Remember to love & serve yourself, too. There’s an unlimited quantity of Tinkerbell’s fairy dust. Remember why you are. I believe in fairies, I do, I do.

 

- Sleep. I presume you already practice sleep hygiene. Pick a religious bedtime not later than 10pm. When you wake in the night, no lights, no activity. Let your thoughts go where they will, focus on your breathing, like counting sheep. Feel your surroundings, the quality of the air, the softness of your bedding, the familiarity of your room. All you want is calm. Rest or dozing is not as good as sleep but, hey, we take what we can get.

 

No screens at least two hours before lights out; no screens in your bedroom. Blue light lenses through the day when you’re using screens.

 

- Dreams. You dream! (Ah, you dreamer, you!) That must mean you’re getting some REM sleep after all. In the Carlos Castaneda books (yeah, I’m still an old hippie), he mentions the Yaqui technique for awareness even in sleep. Try to see your hands in your dream. If you focus on your hands, the rest of you is out of the action. What’s going on over there, up there, don’t matter no more.

 

Disclaimer. I did this for a long time. As I almost never remember my dreams, I could only recall my hands on waking, never the rest of the dream, like The Hand in The Addams Family. Worth a shot, eh.

 

- Feeding. Fuel for the body keeps those hormones flowing & prevents the reactive hypoglycaemia which often contributes to wakefulness. Eat as early after rising as you can stomach (I’m not a breakfast guy) & every two hours through the day.

 

Yes, you have mentioned you believe you are overweight. Throw away the scale, kiddo. Listen to how your body feels. If you jiggle running up the stairs, well, you’re probably too heavy. And I know it’s hard to lose. (I’d still chat you up in the produce aisle but, you know, I’m a guy—it’s what we do!)

 

Healthy diet, of course. Multiple colourful veggies, both raw & cooked. And adequate protein. I’m a fishaquarium but all sorts of pulses & soy can also provide your protein. Only whole grains.

 

Those snacks between meals, esp before bed (brush your teeth!) can be as simple as a handful of nuts or seeds, or a small piece of cheese. You need protein for its long-to-digest oil content. A glug of EV cold-pressed organic coconut oil or oil oil works, too.

 

- Hexercise. If your adrenals are not disrupted, you can do cardio. The key is regularity. No need to speed. Simple & slow as you build up endurance. Feel like a kid—skip rope! Dumbbell (like me!).

 

Yoga, tai chi, stretching don’t do much for weight but for flexibility. They make you feel better about your body. No more back pain. An adequate briskish walk in nature does wonders. Avoid transportation—it interrupts the calm you’re aiming for, a tree-lined street will do.

 

- Sunning for the eyes (closed lids, of course) 15 minutes in the morning, even grey skies will do. Grounding—bare feet on nature. As nekkid as you dare in the sun for 20 minutes every single day. Me, I like no tan lines.

 

- Spirituality. I believe in one God(dess). She’s Mother Nature. Omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent. And she doesn’t give a tinker’s about our pitiful anthill. The joy comes from honouring her in all her names & forms.

 

This is not at all to dismiss any other spiritual pursuits you may have. It’s just a beneficial add-on.

 

- Inspiration. When I’m underwater, I can’t tolerate content. If you can, you’re a lucky woman. Pick music you love: Pink Floyd, Brahms’ Requiem, Talking Heads, The Beatles (of course). Headphones to shut out the world.

 

Watch The Little Mermaid over & over (hehe). The Wizard of Oz: what’s better than home & brains & heart & courage (& a little dog, too). Thinking TV series. I really liked Nine Perfect Strangers recently.

 

- Sociability. Easier to do without purpose. Chat up strangers. At the bus stop, in the grocery line.

 

My grandmother died in the county bughouse diagnosed with manic-depression when Librium was the only drug. She was one of the first degreed woman of her generation, born in 1880. After ECT, I can only imagine how painful it must have been to be without books. Alone & forgotten in a grey world.

 

My mother died when I was five so she raised me before her voluntary commitment. I grew up in Manhattan. She taught me to greet every human politely, and their dogs. Noo Yawk has a lot of people. I’ve continued that tradition my whole life & city people are always surprised. Their smiles are worth overcoming any shyness.

 

You may well be doing all of this & more according to your inner nature. Just some pointers that seem to keep me facing forward instead of going in circles.

 

Of a course, none of the above constitutes the BS advice a real medical professional would give you! (Doctor doctor, give the [bad] news!)

 

A few of these require your intent but most just a push in the right direction & serendipity.

 

love&peace,

CJ

[Ariel]

The theme of social rejection keeps cropping up in recent weeks. I mean, it's been there all along, of course, just that I find myself talking about it more explicitly of late. Exorcism in process, I trust. Thank you to everyone who has engaged with the topic. Sharing is caring, feeling is healing. 

 

In gratitude to/for community and in appreciation of mystery and wholeness (the rich, muscular "maybe" of Alan Watts' retelling of the story of the Chinese farmer), a paean of sorts to asymmetry and acceptance:

 

 

The Consolations of Sociobiology

BY BILL KNOTT

 

(to JK)

 

Those scars rooted me. Stigmata stalagmite

I sat at a drive-in and watched the stars

Through a straw while the Coke in my lap went

Waterier and waterier. For days on end or

 

Nights no end I crawled on all fours or in

My case no fours to worship you: Amoeba Behemoth.

—Then you explained your DNA calls for

Meaner genes than mine and since you are merely

 

So to speak its external expression etcet

Ergo among your lovers I’ll never be ...

Ah that movie was so faraway the stars melting

 

Made my thighs icy. I see: it’s not you

Who is not requiting me, it’s something in you

Over which you have no say says no to me.

 

 

Bill Knott, "The Consolation of Sociobiology" from Becos, published by Random House. 

Copyright 1983 by Bill Knott.

 

*

 

The whole process of nature is an integrated process of immense complexity; and it is really impossible to tell whether anything that happens in it is good or bad; because you never know what will be the consequences of the misfortune; or you never know what will be the consequences of good fortune.   

 

- Alan Watts 

(transcribed from video)

 

 

[Mirtazapine20mg]

Hi Ariel, I am very glad hearing that you feel a new kind of muscle strength. I am also envious. My muscle weakness primarily feels like a lack of torque at low rpms. Peak torque is proberbly also affected, but is less of a practical problem. I don't know if I have had muscle weakness the whole time taking ADs but it certainly intensified when I began WD. Can you recognize this low rpm torque-problem (the initiation-part of some movement), or is the whole curve affected in your case? 

[unblocktheplanet]

Ariel, it only feels like rejection because you care. Those people matter to you. But if they don’t see your beautiful, kaleidoscopic value, they wear that, not you.

 

Alan Watts is an old favourite, esp The Joyous Cosmology. And he’s right—it’s all one. The balance the yin & the yang.

 

You’ve got this…inside you.

 

[Onmyway]

18 hours ago, Ariel said:

The theme of social rejection keeps cropping up in recent weeks. I mean, it's been there all along, of course, just that I find myself talking about it more explicitly of late. Exorcism in process, I trust. Thank you to everyone who has engaged with the topic. Sharing is caring, feeling is healing. 

It's good to talk about this @Arieland talking about the pain of rejection makes others feel safe with similar feelings and removes the shame around them. It is such a common experience that can hurt us so profoundly. Social rejection impacts our psychology and physiology. It even impacts our genetic expression. We are social animals and react to threats to our social survival. 

https://www.psychologicalscience.org/observer/social-experiences-affect-our-genes-and-health

 

Remember that rejection doesn't mean that you are less valuable. There are so many complex dynamics at hand in each relationship, they don't reflect your value as a human being. You have shown yourself to be a wonderful person on these boards and so many people appreciate you deeply. I am so glad you exist and you found your way to us here! Thank you for making this place much brighter with your kindness, humanity, vulnerability, support. 

 

We value you! You matter to us and make us better and happier every day!

OMW

Edited July 2, 2022 by Onmyway

[Mdawg]

thank you for talking about it, I have experienced significantly traumatic social rejection over the years ever since I was a kid… it became a pattern.  You bringing it up just has made me finally confront the reality of that, and how being drugged has made me numb to that pain and allowed me to pretend for so long.

[Mdawg]

Maybe you could start a topic about it?

[Onmyway]

45 minutes ago, Mdawg said:

thank you for talking about it, I have experienced significantly traumatic social rejection over the years ever since I was a kid… it became a pattern.  You bringing it up just has made me finally confront the reality of that, and how being drugged has made me numb to that pain and allowed me to pretend for so long.

So sorry you have lived through such traumatic social rejection @Mdawg,  it is a pain that we often ignore because it doesn't seem as real or as important as physical pain. But it is. I hope that you tend to these wounds with the tenderness and compassion that they deserve and that you deserve. I, for one, am glad you are here with us - not glad that you have withdrawal but that in the withdrawal you are part of this community which you make better. You are welcome and accepted here! 

 

Hugs, 
OMW

[Oaktree1]

 

Hi@Ariel

 

Just noticed that you've gone quiet on SA since 1pm yesterday  - you're normally very active; I hope that things are ok.  Hope you don't think this is intrusive.  I have been quiet over the past while but I nearly always follow your responses on boards.  As you write to me no need to respond if you are taking a much needed break - sometimes it is necessary to do that and you provide so much help and encouragement here ...you need time to take care of yourself too

 

Oaktree

[Mirtazapine20mg]

35 minutes ago, Oaktree1 said:

Just noticed that you've gone quiet on SA since 1pm yesterday  - you're normally very active; I hope that things are ok.  Hope you don't think this is intrusive.  I have been quiet over the past while but I nearly always follow your responses on boards.

I feel the same as Oaktree. Sometimes I feel bad tagging you, because you are so awesome and polite and considerate and thoughtful and that must somehow be taxing. So sometimes I think I will just read your posts to other people and like them and watch from afar. Just take care Ariel. You are universally loved by 17000 SA-members. 

[unblocktheplanet]

I have been following the recent course of our conversations with sweet Ariel. They have caused me to think deeply about social interactions, their purpose & meaning.

 

We all need human contact. But our fulfillment from shallowness or sincerity vary for each of us.

 

I was an only child. My whole life I could count, at most, on two hands the number of genuine friends I’ve had in this life. This number excludes family & romantic partners, of course, and includes a few work colleagues. And the number grows smaller as I age.

 

I am, by nature, attached to bereavement for loved ones gone decades ago. Similarly, I am grieving in advance the passage of others yet to go. Maybe myself, too.

 

I live on the other side of the world so missing people is both nebulous & useless. To consider is how big a hole their absence creates in you. One tends to devote one’s heart to those who are close at hand.

 

Rejection is different. One needs a core of mantle inside oneself to be equanimous when others reject or disrespect you. This can happen in a work or social situation or family.

 

I think that mantle (both the inner & the visible one we wear) is important to cultivate. It’s only through non-attachment that one is really true to oneself. This is esp true during the healing process. Yep, easier said than done.

 

Another active practice is surrender. In any interaction, one person dominates, the other surrenders. This can change from microsecond to microsend. But if one enters interactions in the spirit of surrender—this sort of means allowing the other person to "win"—there’s a far better chance you will not end up hurt or unsatisfied.

 

Sorry if this is all too philosophical. This stuff we can only find for ourselves in ourselves.

 

My social metiér is email. Videocalls are too shallow, just business & duty. I craft offline & edit over days before sending. In person, I love the folks at the grocery stores. And I love the compassionate relationship we have on SA.

 

Ariel is a really big part of that!

 

Your mileage may vary. I just hugged an old friend for the first time in three years. Felt awful good. I’ve been missing hugging (hygge?).

 

 

 

[Oaktree1]

@Ariel

 

I am concerned about your silence on the boards.  You are normally so active.  If you could just maybe check in and write that you are ok but going to take a break for a while for your own self care.   Are you ok?  I am concerned about you.

 

Oaktree

[Ninabird]

Thinking of you sweet Ariel. Please let us know you are ok.

[Ariel]

On 7/1/2022 at 2:23 PM, Mirtazapine20mg said:

Hi Ariel, I am very glad hearing that you feel a new kind of muscle strength. I am also envious. My muscle weakness primarily feels like a lack of torque at low rpms. Peak torque is proberbly also affected, but is less of a practical problem. I don't know if I have had muscle weakness the whole time taking ADs but it certainly intensified when I began WD. Can you recognize this low rpm torque-problem (the initiation-part of some movement), or is the whole curve affected in your case? 

 

Hi @Mirtazapine20mg

I'm not sure what you mean. Could you clarify further? Maybe provide an example, such as what it feels like when you try to lift something heavy. 

[Mirtazapine20mg]

30 minutes ago, Ariel said:

m not sure what you mean. Could you clarify further? Maybe provide an example, such as what it feels like when you try to lift something heavy. 

Sorry, my bad. Yes, of course I can Ariel. If you loosen the lid of on a jar, it feels like it takes a longer time to build up sufficient torque to actually turn the lid. Or when I lift and carry something heavy: No problem carrying, big problem to lift. I don't know Ariel. I think it is just me who surprised over the fatigue from withdrawal. I am so f**king tired and weak all the time. It is just my version of those "will I ever get better"-posts. Sorry. I know I will. Whenever I see a little bit of information about the physical consequences of withdrawal, I cling on to it. Carry on :-). 

[Ariel]

@Mirtazapine20mg

 

1 hour ago, Mirtazapine20mg said:

Sorry, my bad. Yes, of course I can Ariel. If you loosen the lid of on a jar, it feels like it takes a longer time to build up sufficient torque to actually turn the lid. Or when I lift and carry something heavy: No problem carrying, big problem to lift. I don't know Ariel. I think it is just me who surprised over the fatigue from withdrawal. I am so f**king tired and weak all the time. It is just my version of those "will I ever get better"-posts. Sorry. I know I will. Whenever I see a little bit of information about the physical consequences of withdrawal, I cling on to it. Carry on :-). 

 

Nothing to be sorry about, I just didn't get what you meant and wanted to understand in order to possibly try to answer your question. I am happy to receive your inquiries and read what you share. Your experience is valuable.

 

WD fatigue is somehow perpetually surprising. It makes no logical sense and at the same time it is an undeniable, non-negotiable bodily fact that we slam up against again and again and again. Sometimes the blatant reality of something is as baffling in its blunt, simple is-ness as illusions can be in their unreality. This whole experience is stunning, like incomprehensible, unfathomable WTF clusterf*ck SNAFU utterly astonishing astounding stupefying stun-ning. 

I'm not sure I'm understanding adequately, so please feel free to correct me if I've got something wrong. I would say yes, in WD certainly I've experienced a sort of significant resistance and processing delay on the initiation phase of movements (from your previous post), and on "explosive" or "accelerating" action such as lifting (as opposed to carrying, which is more like maintaining a certain momentum). My feeling of this as I've experienced it in my body is that there have been signaling issues, like static on the internal communication lines leading to performance difficulty. Going from the thought of doing something to carrying out that action -- be it fairly simple, such as lifting a box, or more compound, such as making a trip to the supermarket -- has not been a smooth chain of messaging. A lot of information gets lost along the way and what does arrive often seems to have lost resolution (in every sense), like a copy of a copy of a copy (etc.). This is why I think of it largely in terms of efficiency. 

 

By the way, you are entirely allowed and welcome to ask "Will I ever get better?" You "know" you will, I "know" you "know" you will, etc. whatever. We are usually not asking for information or facts when we ask this question, we are expressing an aspect of the emotional reality of our embodied experience in a given moment, e.g. the staggering uncertainty, unpredictability, instability, wilderness of this condition, and that's perfectly valid and honest. It is okay to ask, "Will I ever get better?" and to want someone to simply say, "Yes, darling, you will get better, I have every faith in you, I just know you're gonna be okay." And it's okay to lean in to that reassurance and let ourselves trust in another's words for a while as we might let go into another's embrace. Especially here, where we at least have in common that we know in our bones what it is to be vulnerable in body, brain, mind, waving in the wind. You don't ever have to apologize for that. 

 

On 7/2/2022 at 9:18 PM, Mirtazapine20mg said:

Sometimes I feel bad tagging you, because you are so awesome and polite and considerate and thoughtful and that must somehow be taxing. So sometimes I think I will just read your posts to other people and like them and watch from afar.

 

You don't have to feel bad tagging me (although it's your choice, feel as bad as you wish). I appreciate being tagged; and it makes me very happy when people react to a post with one of those little hearts, it's like I actually feel it in my heart and it does something very good and healing. This is a virtual communication platform and both tagging and heart-ing (or "liking" or whatever) are significant elements of our communication here. They are tools and especially hearts are, to me, an important form of feedback, that someone has received a message, says hello or thank you or "i hear you, I see you", much as a nod or a smile or eye contact might in real life. I may be naïve and or particularly sensitive to these gestures, but I like likes a lot, they mean so much as a means to connect and honor connection and make this strange, slippery virtual thing feel more substantial. So please don't hold back on my account. 

 

I'm sorry that you're going through WD, S. It really stinks and I wish I could make it go away, I wish I could give you a hug and bring you peace and relief. In lieu of that I will say that you are okay and you are going to be okay, and your brain and muscles are okay, too, they're working it out every single moment of every single day, and you may very well be the last to know but when the time comes you will know. And I mean know, not the superficial "knowing" of the mind but the embodied, robust, resilient knowing of gut-rich, heart-full wholeness and presence and integrated being.

 

Love,
A.

 

[Rosetta]

Hi, Ariel, I’m thinking of you.  I’m sorry to read about your friend dumping you and losing the entire group because of it.  It seems a bit cruel and ugly to me that she would do that.  Alphas are people I stay away from.  Nothing good ever comes from being friends with one of them.  
 

I hope you are feeling better.  The neuro-emotions and dreams cause us a lot of grief.  Someday they will be rare!  I don’t have too many experiences of feeling that my emotions are raw like they were when an event happened, and I have few bad dreams!  What a difference this makes in my life.  
 

That’s right — never breach the veil of pretend around the truth!  But, as you know, sometimes, that is exactly what we need to do!  I’m glad that your male friend was kind to you, and you know that he still likes you. That he is not courageous enough to help you have contact with your former friends — several of whom probably miss you, is unsurprising.  People are so weak.  I have only two friends that I can see in person left after 2020.   I almost never see them.  I’m angry, but good riddance.  It was apparently the pandemic/election that was the thing — but, eventually, it would have been something else that would have resulted in being dumped.  My willingness to be tolerant of my friend’s views mattered not.  So, her loss.

 

I know it’s really tough when you have no one.  I’m glad you have this forum.  No one else can understand.  
 

Hang in there! -Rosetta

[Sheera]

@Arielthinking of you about how much your sleep has improved. What a great feeling!!  ❤️ Keep on doing all the things you’re doing (some more some less depending on the day) and trust that you are on the right path for you. 
 

Much love and healing—

Sheera

[Ariel]

@Rosetta

Thank you so much for your kindness and support. It means the world. 

[Ariel]

@Sheera

Thank you so much for your kind message. 

Your support is most welcome, and quite timely, as it's been a rough morning thus far. 

I appreciate your mention of the sleep improvements. They didn't stick around (sadsies), and it's good to be reminded that they did happen.

The improvements were real and they will return. Healing is happening. 

Thank you for your encouraging words, I am leaning into and on them today. 

[Ariel]

Disclaimer: I fully acknowledge how mind-numbingly boring it can be to hear about anyone else's sleep- and dreamscape. I don't expect anyone to be interested in what my dreams are like. Read at your own risk... of falling asleep. 

 

*

 

This is so odd I have to record it somewhere so I don't forget. 

The past few weeks I've been experiencing a recurrence of certain symptoms in my sleep only. They dissipate upon waking. 

These are symptoms which were prominent earlier in WD and have since resolved, e.g. air hunger and floaty-boat.

 

It's so interesting and strange. It feels like my sleeping organism is working through the lived experience of having had those symptoms. (That's neither a theory nor a hypothesis; merely a description of subjective experience and creative psychospiritual interpretation thereof.) 

 

I've been prone (ha) to lucid dreaming since I was a child. This has generally not really been an option in the same way during WD with sleep and dream quality being so drastically and unrecognizably altered.

 

Since the window on June 25th I haven't had any nightmares (knock on wood) and have had a few remarkably pleasant dreams. I've also been having regular middle-grade tense dreams (not pleasant but far from a WD nightmare). During these I am able to self-talk and self-soothe to try to address the anxiety in the dream.

 

For example, this morning I got an extra hour of sleep between approx. 7-8am.

I dreamt that I was on a very noisy ferry crossing (possibly inspired by the very loud garbage truck operating outside my real-life windows) and the water was really choppy. I was lying on a bench feeling seasick, anxiety rising. While still sleeping I registered a feeling of air hunger in my body. I was able to tell myself: This is only a dream, you are not in any danger; the air hunger is just a passing WD symptom; the dizziness and vertigo are illusory, having to do with the dream; you are not actually on a boat; etc. This helped calm me in the dream and I was able to sit up on the bench and walk around the ship a bit. At one point the self-talk offered, Look at it this way, at least we're not on a plane!  which sort of hilariously backfired because my dream self immediately started spiraling thinking about how scary it would be to be on a plane, which in turn made my lucid-dreaming-observer self laugh at how silly the dream self's neuro-emotions were being. It was clear that the self in the dream was experiencing WD symptoms whereas "I" wasn't. We shared the same body via sensations of air hunger; it seemed like my real-life body was reacting to the dreamt experience (maybe this is obvious). The lucid dreamer voice was able to communicate with both the dream self and the real-life body, coaching the latter through some breathwork while reassuring the former. This was all such an active, participatory process that there were moments throughout where I wasn't sure whether or not I was still asleep; but when I woke up with a start it became clear to me that I had indeed been asleep. (Asleep and hard at work! No wonder I'm exhausted when I wake up.)

 

I find this noteworthy because these are changes that I choose to interpret as positive signs of healing: 

(Please please please let them be positive signs of healing! Haha) 

- absence of nightmares

- repeated instances of pleasant dreams

- unpleasant dreams are less extreme, the anxiety is manageable

- burgeoning return of capacity for lucid dreaming

- emerging return of capacity to self-regulate while asleep 

- cortisol wake-ups are less intense 

- WD symptoms strongly felt while asleep resolve after waking 

 

June 24-28 I had that delicious experience of five consecutive nights of improved sleep quality. What a world of difference that made! 

What I've written above applies to the days and nights starting June 29th, when sleep went back to a more familiar WD pattern. However, in addition to the developments already listed, it bears emphasizing that the cortisol spikes are slightly less spiky.

 

Overall, I'd say my WD sleep baseline has improved. It's subtle but it's something. 

 

IT'S SOMETHING GODDAMMIT. 

[Mirtazapine20mg]

1 hour ago, Ariel said:

Disclaimer: I fully acknowledge how mind-numbingly boring it can be to hear about anyone else's sleep- and dreamscape. I don't expect anyone to be interested in what my dreams are like.

I am :-). 

 

1 hour ago, Ariel said:

June 24-28 I had that delicious experience of five consecutive nights of improved sleep quality. What a world of difference that made! 

If we somehow can take "bad sleep" out of the equation I think we are more than half way there. I have often thought about the causality of this. Sleep deprivation symptoms and WD symptoms are frightening alike. Is it WD from ADs -> Bad sleep -> anxiety, avolition, all kinds of bad physical **** or WD from ADs -> all kinds of bad ****, including bad sleep (a simplification for the sake of argument). 

Once I experienced insomnia for five days - not single minute sleep-insomnia. I was on full dose ADs. Take the core WD symptoms on SA, and that was what I experienced. Furthermore there is laughable little research in psychotropics influence on sleep. That we sleep bad in WD we know. But the little sleep we get is sort of a black box. I think that is f*cked too. 

 

1 hour ago, Ariel said:

The lucid dreamer voice was able to communicate with both the dream self and the real-life body, coaching the latter through some breathwork while reassuring the former.

 

That experience is so freaky but also oddly interesting (almost psychedelic... I think, never tried psychedelics).

 

All this made me think about your recently gained muscle strength. If this muscle strength can lead to exercise down the road (organically homegrown endorphins, dopamine - the good stuff) I am beginning to be euphorically optimistic on your behalf. Maybe, just maybe there is more to harvest. 

 

Btw, acetylsalicylic acid didn't work (I couldn't stomach it - literally), but this night I took a quarter of paracetamol tablet. Seemed to have at least a weak placebo effect I liked. A good day to you Ariel.

[Erimus]

Air hunger is one of the worst. I’m glad it’s mostly resolved for you despite making a reappearance in your dreams. I thought I was pretty much done with it but it’s decided to make an unwelcome return the last couple of days.

 

We have to remember that our body will never stop breathing.. haha! 

[Ariel]

Thank you, dear @Erimus

I'm sorry you are experiencing air hunger again, too. Must be something in the air.

 

29 minutes ago, Erimus said:

making a reappearance in your dreams

 

This made me giggle. Expressions like "the stuff of nightmares" and "haunted in one's dreams" take on a literal meaning in WD. 

 

29 minutes ago, Erimus said:

We have to remember that our body will never stop breathing.. haha! 

 

Thanks for the laugh. I'm guessing you meant this ironically. 

Humor is an excellent non-drug coping technique. 

 

Hang in there, Erimus. We're in this together, and we're gonna get through!

[Healingcontinues]

4 hours ago, Ariel said:

June 24-28 I had that delicious experience of five consecutive nights of improved sleep quality. What a world of difference that made! 

So delicious I am almost drooling over the thought. I can so imagine that this made a difference. Gosh, healing is definitely happening (although it sucks enormously when the WD cha-cha of one step forward two steps back starts dancing and you feel you’re grooving backwards again). I am so please you got 5 days of yummy sleep though. 

 

4 hours ago, Ariel said:

Overall, I'd say my WD sleep baseline has improved. It's subtle but it's something. 

 

IT'S SOMETHING GODDAMMIT. 

It certainly is! All improvements shall and will be celebrated. My party hat is on for you today. Very happy for you 💃

[Ariel]

@Healingcontinues

Thank you so much for celebratory support! Healing feels all the sweeter for being able to share.

 

I have posted numerous times about those five nights and continue to write about them because it feels almost unbelievable now. But they did happen and I want to remember.

 

What I find so interesting is that it was "only" about 5-6 hours a night ("only" in quotation marks as I know that in WD 5-6 hours can feel like a feast, which indeed it was; by "only" I mean a far cry from the 8+ hours one might want/need/dream of), but the quality was luscious.

Straight-through and velvety, with a cushioned landing of feeling relatively rested and present upon waking.

No cortisolian panicky startle-alert shenanigans.

It was a different reality. 

 

Let us imagine a future of good quality sleep in the desired quantities, on a regular basis.

I don't know when we will arrive on that planet, but I'll see you there and we will party together! 

See you on the dance floor <3

 

 

[unblocktheplanet]

Sweet Ariel, due to a couple of your recent postings, I wanted to tell you what was happening during my recent 10-month wave which I now consider withdrawal pangs.

 

Those are different than hunger pangs. More like concentration camp starvation.

 

- I didn’t want to go to bed vecause I knew I wouldn’t sleep.

 

- I didn’t want to get out of bed because I knew I’d not only drag myself through the day with deep depression, anxiety, social phobia, agoraphobia, anorexia but my only hope was waiting for bed when I could ascend that sweet stairway to heaven.

 

* In short, it was purgatory. I was in death’s waiting room from September 2021-June 2022.

 

- Not only did I consider checking myself into a locked psych ward (which I can ill afford &, c’mon you know, would do zippo for my mental health), I had a suitcase packed (no sharps or glass) for five months.

 

- Wait! I could ask for more drugs! That might even be lower than the next option. I live in Thailand. A brief, inexpensive hilltribe trek would get me an opium connection. If one is going to be addicted, might as well be to something doesn’t make you crazy(er).

 

- Suicide? Oh, yeah. I’d ride public transport & long for every balcony. Was it high enough, was there a nice solid surface on which to splat so I didn’t break my fall or, worse, break any innocent below. I weighed every tree for the strength & accessibility of its branches. Was it high enough, private enough I would not be discovered.

 

The sea. It’s warm here. I can’t swim. I could just float that moonbeam forever. Maybe it wouldn’t hurt those I love as much if there were doubt. It would look like an accident. And I’d be free.

 

I do logistics, planning. I’m a pragmatist. Worthless as I felt, there was still this niggling doubt, I’d leave a small pinpoint hold in the universe, a loose thread.

 

And then, mother of all mysteries, it broke. And I’m the pushy PITA you’ve come to know!

 

So I met you in the produce aisle. Can I have that first dance? How’s the weather in EU, anyway?

 

I'm still sleeping like shite, 2-5 hours at most. Little Nemo helps: https://en.th1lib.org/book/3602754/765ee4. You'll have to register to download. I've been using Z-Library for years, there's no trickery there.

[Ariel]

@Mirtazapine20mg

Thank you for your optimism on my behalf.

It's easier sometimes to have faith in others than in oneself.

Thanks for holding down the fort!

Sending you a hug <3