Landis: Olanzapine cold turkey

[Shep]

10 hours ago, Landis said:

I have read in several scientific articles that the symptoms of PAWS can be permanent and irreversible. This is so scary! I don't want to believe that this nightmare will never end.

 

Landis, I've read in many scientific articles stating psychiatric drugs work very well and have virtually no side effects. You can find all sorts of things if that's what you're looking for. 

 

 

4 hours ago, hayduke said:

Instead of dwelling on the worst of it, why not start thinking about healing and bringing supportive things and practices into your life?  Many people successfully recover.  We see that people who are proactive about taking charge of their own healing have a better time of it, it's a good mindset to work on establishing.

 

What Hayduke wrote is true. What you want to aim for is to train your brain for the best outcome. And there's actual science behind that. Check out this information on neuroplasticity: 

 

Neuroplasticity video (2 minutes)

 

Healing from antidepressants. How to speed up the recovery process video (5 minutes)

 

And just like there are positives to neuroplasticity, be careful of going into spirals of catastrophic thinking, as that can also re-wire the brain. 

 

Norman Doidge - The Dark Side of Neuroplasticity video (2 minutes)

 

Some ways of not going down the dark side of neuroplasticity:

 

Dealing With Emotional Spirals

 

"Change the channel" -- dealing with cognitive symptoms

 

Better days are ahead. It's painfully slow, but we do get better over time. 

 

Success Stories

 

Please let us know how you're feeling with the reinstatement. 

 

[Landis]

As I understand it, olanzapine is not water-soluble, and therefore, for an accurate dose titration, it is necessary to pre-dilute it in Ora-Plus, since I only have extremely tiny 5 mg. orodispersible tablets, carefully dividing them into 5 parts seems to me an impossible task. Approximation in the gradual deprescribing of olanzapine appears to be punishable, but in my country it is simply impossible to obtain this suspending agent. This news demoralized me: I seemed to be doomed to poor-quality tapering.

[brassmonkey]

Here is part of an article I'm working on that deals with homemade suspensions:

 

Because it is so thin, water is not always the best media for making a suspension. Even though it is quite fine in texture the powder made by crushing the tablets is still heavier than water and can settle out quite quickly. A better way is to use a thicker base material.

There are several commercially made “Suspension Medias” available online or through your pharmacist. Ora-plus and Ora-sweet are two of the most common, but a quick online search will bring up other alternatives. There are some ways to make your own which can work quite well also.

Believe or of not there are some people who have trouble drinking water because it is too “wet”. There is a product available at many drug stores or chemists referred to as “thick water”. It is thick enough to hold the powder in suspension quite well.

Making a homemade suspension media can work well too. A common one is to use maple syrup; you could also use corn syrup or other cooking syrups. There are quite a few recipes available online using a variety of materials. All these media would be used in the same manner as water following the directions given in other parts of this article.

Using fruit juice is also popular as a suspension media. Some juices are much thicker than water and suspend the powder quite will. They also taste much better. Because they contain fruit pulp it is hard to see if the powder is well mixed in. As warned above DO NOT USE GRAPEFRUIT JUICE, it reacts badly with many Benzos and can create a liquid that is dangerous to drink.

[Landis]

25 minutes ago, brassmonkey said:

Here is part of an article I'm working on that deals with homemade suspensions:

 

Because it is so thin, water is not always the best media for making a suspension. Even though it is quite fine in texture the powder made by crushing the tablets is still heavier than water and can settle out quite quickly. A better way is to use a thicker base material.

There are several commercially made “Suspension Medias” available online or through your pharmacist. Ora-plus and Ora-sweet are two of the most common, but a quick online search will bring up other alternatives. There are some ways to make your own which can work quite well also.

Believe or of not there are some people who have trouble drinking water because it is too “wet”. There is a product available at many drug stores or chemists referred to as “thick water”. It is thick enough to hold the powder in suspension quite well.

Making a homemade suspension media can work well too. A common one is to use maple syrup; you could also use corn syrup or other cooking syrups. There are quite a few recipes available online using a variety of materials. All these media would be used in the same manner as water following the directions given in other parts of this article.

Using fruit juice is also popular as a suspension media. Some juices are much thicker than water and suspend the powder quite will. They also taste much better. Because they contain fruit pulp it is hard to see if the powder is well mixed in. As warned above DO NOT USE GRAPEFRUIT JUICE, it reacts badly with many Benzos and can create a liquid that is dangerous to drink.

Do I understand correctly that olanzapine can dissolve in maple syrup or fruit juice?

[brassmonkey]

No it can not. These are liquids that are thicker than water and are commonly used as suspension media similar to ora-plus. You would grind up the tablet and mix it in as evenly as possible. Because the liquid is thick the powder will "float" in it instead of settling to the bottom in the same manner it would with the ora-plus.

[Landis]

23 minutes ago, brassmonkey said:

No it can not. These are liquids that are thicker than water and are commonly used as suspension media similar to ora-plus. You would grind up the tablet and mix it in as evenly as possible. Because the liquid is thick the powder will "float" in it instead of settling to the bottom in the same manner it would with the ora-plus.

Thank you very much for your advice! Perhaps this will help me out, you were very kind to share this valuable information with me.

[hayduke]

It doesn't need to be fancy.  Preoccupying yourself with "doom" won't help.  All the best

[Landis]

It is absolutely obvious to me that people who have been suffering from total anhedonia for years and yet continue to fight are real heroes, titans of the spirit, giants of self-overcoming, I bow to your willpower, you are powerful and magnificent. I must admit that I have never been a particularly strong person, I think that I have always had enough bad qualities: I have always been quick-tempered, capricious, unempathic, so the current test is an unprecedented torture for me. I try not to focus on the negative, because then the anxiety just tears me apart, which does not allow me to hope for the best, and without hope this life is meaningless.
 

I went through a few windows in the last weeks: I won't lie that I felt 100% myself, but I felt better. Curiously, I found an interesting correlation between the frequency of windows and the focus on success stories: once I start to believe that I, too, can heal, I get a little better, although anhedonia, apathy and amotivation do not let me go for a second, I still spend whole days in bed without even undressing, which was absolutely unacceptable for me before. It is also interesting that the appearance of windows is also to some extent associated with sleep deprivation: I know that this is a dangerous practice, but I still hardly sleep and smoke a lot (due to permanent anxiety, I returned to this bad habit, from which I successfully gave up four years ago, but I'm thinking about quitting again, as smoking rapidly depletes my already modest dopamine reserves), and therefore sometimes I do not deny myself the pleasure of inducing some semblance of a window in such a risky way.
 

More than anything, now I want to reunite with my beloved girlfriend: we reconciled again, although at the moment we are not together (she is frightened by my unnatural state, she sobs all day, like my mother, because they see me as another person, it triggers me a little, but they have the right to their opinion, this is normal), but she encourages me and convinces me of a positive scenario for the development of events, however the catastrophism of my thinking, unfortunately, is almost invincible.
 

I was with my psychiatrist the other day, and he is naturally convinced that olanzapine, after three weeks of taking this drug at a sub-therapeutic dose, is not capable of causing a prolonged withdrawal syndrome, and therefore I am experiencing some kind of mythical depressive episode, accompanied by prolonged hypomania, provoked by the abrupt withdrawal of olanzapine. To be honest, his point of view looks doubtful to me, although some of his considerations seemed consistent to me: indeed, a few hours before the sudden manifestation of this intolerable symptomatology, we quarreled with my girlfriend, which theoretically could induce a depressive episode, but there are several inconsistencies in this hypothesis - the fact is that we have quarreled many times before, but before the abrupt withdrawal of olanzapine I never encountered similar symptoms that manifested (coincidence?) just three days after the hasty termination of the drug. Naturally, I immediately rejected the fluoxetine he proposed, after which he apparently appreciated the seriousness of the situation, and therefore he himself suggested that I resume taking olanzapine at a lower dose: 1 mg. It is clear that he has no idea about rational deprescribing: in his opinion, I can reduce the dose of olanzapine to 0.5 mg. for a couple of months, but of course I'm not going to do that. Lord, I was so depressed when I met him: this man casually ruined my life, and I have to meekly fawn before him, having previously paid a decent amount for a medical examination. How humiliating and absurd! I had enough childhood traumas, and now psychiatry has also crippled me. It's disgusting.
 

P.S. Would someone be so kind as to tell me about their personal experience with olanzapine reinstatement, but here is a specific aspect that interests me: tell me, if it does not make it very difficult for you, did returning to olanzapine at least partially reduce your apathy, anhedonia, amotivation? It sounds counterintuitive (since when did a dopamine antagonist reverse these phenomena?), but our brains are incredibly complex, so I'd love it if you could share your own experiences with me.

[Landis]

I found a positive success story on one site - I hasten to share it with you, it is very inspiring:
https://www.medications.com/zyprexa/zyprexa-withdrawal-emotional-blunting-help

[Landis]

Unfortunately, I feel incredibly alone, because I realized that my case is not very typical at all: I did not experience anhedonia, amotivation, apathy, or psychic anesthesia during short-term use of olanzapine, however, a few days after the abrupt withdrawal of the drug these symptoms manifested at the same time, literally in one second, it scares me. I have noticed that in the vast majority of people these symptoms appear while taking olanzapine, and then do not go away immediately after withdrawal, but slowly dissipate afterwards. In my case, everything was completely different, it is alarming.

[Landis]

I have to literally force myself to eat and drink, as my reward system seems to have been amputated. Aspontaneity is monstrous.

[Landis]

It's funny that my intellect, for the most part, is preserved, but I cannot use it effectively due to emotional-volitional defects.

[Landis]

I managed to negotiate with the pharmacists of one local pharmacy about the division of my 5 mg. tablets into five parts, however they notified me that the drug would be mixed with glucose to some extent, although the concentration of olanzapine in the resulting amalgam would be the same: do you think glucose could provoke any paradoxical reactions?

[Landis]

The pharmacist told me to store olanzapine tablets mixed with glucose at -3 to +5 °C. I don't know if it's possible to do this at all, but it's definitely worth a try.

[Altostrata]

On 4/11/2022 at 5:58 AM, Landis said:

I managed to negotiate with the pharmacists of one local pharmacy about the division of my 5 mg. tablets into five parts, however they notified me that the drug would be mixed with glucose to some extent, although the concentration of olanzapine in the resulting amalgam would be the same: do you think glucose could provoke any paradoxical reactions?

 

Glucose should not cause any problems. It's a small amount of sugar. Good for you, you've organized smaller dosages.

[ThatOneGirlStitch]

On 4/10/2022 at 1:45 PM, Landis said:

Unfortunately, I feel incredibly alone, because I realized that my case is not very typical at all: I did not experience anhedonia, amotivation, apathy, or psychic anesthesia during short-term use of olanzapine, however, a few days after the abrupt withdrawal of the drug these symptoms manifested at the same time, literally in one second, it scares me. I have noticed that in the vast majority of people these symptoms appear while taking olanzapine, and then do not go away immediately after withdrawal, but slowly dissipate afterwards. In my case, everything was completely different, it is alarming.

Don't feel alone. On the benzo buddies website a lot of people talk about getting anhedonia after they stopped their drug.

 

I also have to force myself to eat and drink. 

 

Windows in anhedonia are a good sign. It shows your brain is not stuck there.

[Altostrata]

Emotional anesthesia is a very, very common drug post-discontinuation effect.

[Landis]

Oh, I'm so stupid, I feel like a complete idiot. A few months ago, I did not know about the existence of this wonderful forum, and therefore was in total despair, because I believed that I was doomed and no one could help me: in order to relieve my mental pain, I started smoking a lot, although I quit this bad habit four years ago. Only now I realize why my healing process practically stopped at a certain point: the cigarettes that I have been smoking for two and a half months are to blame for everything! I intend to quit smoking one of these days with the help of nicotine chewing gum, I don't want to ruin my body, which every day does a tremendous job of returning my self. Guys who read this post, please do not use any medications during the recovery process (with the exception of vital ones) and other psychoactive substances (including even adaptogens), this directly affects the duration of your rehabilitation. Do not force moderators to work in vain and appreciate their time, they are sincerely trying to help you! As for me, I'm going to reorient myself in the near future to the healthiest lifestyle possible: I will try to eat only healthy food, I will go to the pool and walk several kilometers a day. I believe in the reality of complete healing and I doubt that two and a half months of smoking tobacco can derail this process, but in any case do not follow my example!

[ChessieCat]

34 minutes ago, Landis said:

As for me, I'm going to reorient myself in the near future to the healthiest lifestyle possible: I will try to eat only healthy food, I will go to the pool and walk several kilometers a day.

 

Do not overdo things.  With anything it is better to start small and build up in small increments.  A gradual change is much better and only making one change at a time allows you to see what is beneficial/detrimental.  If you haven't been exercising for a while, start with a gentle 15-30 minute walk once a day.  SA members have found over exerting themselves can worsen their withdrawal symptoms.

 

Even with food it is better to change over gradually by cutting out obvious bad/unhealthy things first and then replacing other things over time.  If you cut out sugar completely in one go you may experience withdrawal after about 3 days (this happened to me in the 1980s when I went on the Pritikin diet). The same with caffeine.  I started eating low carb in October last year (to reverse my diabetes T2 and it worked in 3 months) and cut out the obvious things first, sugar, biscuits/cookies, candy/sweets/lollies and heavily processed foods.  There were some things that I did choose not to eat (I wanted to prove to my doctor that changing what I eat would work without drugs and she was leaving at the end of January 2022 - it was also a great incentive to stick to it) and threw out/gave away (eg potatoes, pizza bases, rice, pasta, fruit juice) but with others which weren't too high in carbs I ate and then replaced with lower carb alternatives.

[Landis]

Insomnia exhausted me, it is unbearable, and I have suffered from it for many years, but before the abrupt withdrawal of olanzapine it was not so painful, and now I sleep 2-3 hours a day at best, and I don’t know what to do about it, although I clearly understand that without 5-6 hours of sleep a day healing will not take place, so I started experimenting with melatonin, which did not give a tangible result today, but, perhaps, will provide some minimal hypnogenic effect in time.

[Landis]

I haven't slept for several days... I don't know how much longer I can hold out in this mode.

[Shep]

On 4/16/2022 at 9:43 PM, Landis said:

Insomnia exhausted me, it is unbearable, and I have suffered from it for many years, but before the abrupt withdrawal of olanzapine it was not so painful, and now I sleep 2-3 hours a day at best, and I don’t know what to do about it, although I clearly understand that without 5-6 hours of sleep a day healing will not take place, so I started experimenting with melatonin, which did not give a tangible result today, but, perhaps, will provide some minimal hypnogenic effect in time.

 

How much melatonin are you taking? This is one where less is more, so be careful you're not taking too much and getting a paradoxical reaction. The first post in this thread will explain how to take it at a very low dose:

 

Melatonin for sleep

 

Also, make sure you're practicing good sleep hygiene.

 

Tips to help sleep: so many of us have that awful withdrawal insomnia

 

A sleep mask to block light, a bit of magnesium in the form of an epson salt bath, quiet activities such as working a jigsaw puzzle, gentle music, guided sleep meditations, etc. You may want to start a worry journal and write down all of your worries at night - and then put the journal away and out of your thoughts before going to bed. All of these things can calm your nervous system and help you get some sleep. 

[ChessieCat]

On 4/20/2022 at 12:27 PM, Landis said:

I haven't slept for several days... I don't know how much longer I can hold out in this mode.

 

@Shep

 

Member posted this elsewhere about recent TMS treatment:

 

8 hours ago, Landis said:

 

I do not recommend anyone to do TMS during a severe PAWS, as this is fraught with the emergence of new problems and

aggravation of old ones: for example, in my case, I practically stopped sleeping, but before the first (and fortunately, the only) session of TMS, which took place a week ago, I could sleep an average of 3-4 hours a day, and this is after the abrupt withdrawal of Zyprexa! At the moment I'm not just disappointed, I'm in complete despair, because before the TMS experiment I was slowly but steadily on the mend, and now I sleep 5 hours in 3-4 days. Does anyone know when (at least approximately) the effect of a single session of TMS may pass, and whether it will pass at all?

 

 

[Shep]

13 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

Member posted this elsewhere about recent TMS treatment:

 

Thanks, @ChessieCat

 

22 hours ago, Landis said:

At the moment I'm not just disappointed, I'm in complete despair, because before the TMS experiment I was slowly but steadily on the mend, and now I sleep 5 hours in 3-4 days. Does anyone know when (at least approximately) the effect of a single session of TMS may pass, and whether it will pass at all?

 

No one can tell you how long it will take to recover from the session, but in time, you'll feel better. Try to do as much self care as you can. There's no reason to think one single session of TMS causes any permanent damage. 

 

Let us know how you're feeling over the coming days. 

[cutefoxy]

@Landis Hello, how are you? How your relationships are going?

[hopeful2]

How are things going for you? I see the thread stopped. I hope all is well.