unblocktheplanet

[unblocktheplanet]

Dear Ariel, even though I'm phobic about rollercoasters, I'm going to re-read your thread from the beginning. WD is really Jekyll & Hyde stuff.

 

One's attitudes, or as Castaneda would put it, intentions, are, in a way, expectations, thereby opening us to disappointment.

 

I stopped eating animals in 1966, I was 16. That was the same year I started refusing to pay war taxes for Vietnam. I've never eaten meat, or paid taxes, again. So with that vegetarian committed running so strongly through me, it's hard to imagine changing my diet. I sure eat healthy & a big percentage organic.

 

Early on in what I thought was a thyroid meltdown but turned out to be <this>, I commented to someone who suggested gluten-free: "They'll have to pry my pasta from my cold, dead hands!" I hope death by pasta is not my future! But you sort of will things to come true, eh, like negative visualization. A friend of mine asked about my hobbies. I told him, "Going to see doctors at hospital clinics." Well, sh*t, we know how that one played out!

 

I'll check the threads, thanks. Oooh, concurrent! Scary to think about. We have an outdoor kitchen. This is the tropics so lots of mosquitos. Never had hives but I think that's what my itchy-scratchy is about. Low-class men scratch their junk in public--at least I'm not itchy there (yet!).

 

My enduring tinnitus seems to be associated with Alprazolam, and irreversible. Monaural hearing loss to Mirtazapine. I experienced sudden onset left ear deafness two weeks ago. Saw an otolaryngologist yesterday. She was excited enough to put me on high-dose steroids for a week (dangerous, confuses other symptoms, & have to wean) to see if hearing improves. Meanwhile, she's ordered an urgent MRI (now it's getting pricey: $250).

 

It would explain everything if I just had a brain tumor, eh!

 

Hey, Dawg, you know, when you're young, it doesn't seem like lifestyle just life. I didn't choose it, it chose me! We certainly had no intention of getting pregnant but our daughter kept us on some kind of level path through the high mountains. Still does, more than 50 years later.

 

Had a bestseller in California. Found publisher made all the money. Used my profits to set up publishing in Hong Kong. Did not like working eight days a week. Traveling the region, I discovered Thailand had almost no publishing industry. Learned Thai, partnered with Thailand's largest publisher...who ran away with all my money in the 1997 economic crash!

 

Thailand became home. Might be too hot for most people but I've always been a nature-boy so not much laundry!

 

Unblocktheplanet is pretty much my attitude toward life. Although, were I not a vegetarian, I'd be a humanitarian! I'm a big activist on big & small issues, founded movements to stop govt censorship here & abolish the military draft. That's kind of a big deal in a military dictatorship where foreigners have no real protections. But I know how to be discreet, polite and walk the walk (it's a zig-zag!).

[unblocktheplanet]

In trying to wrap my head around SA’s core discovery of ‘waves and windows’, I thought my own might be useful to others here.

 

I think journaling is crucial so one can refer back to see what one may have been doing rightly or wrongly.

 

I developed ‘tolerance’ to 15 years of Mirtazapine & Trazodone for sleep in April 2018. I wrongly attributed this to a return of thyroid symptoms and, later, to adrenal fatigue. Consistent with my thyroid symptoms: sleeplessness (frequent & early wakings), depression w preoccupation with death, anxiety / sometimes 24-hour panicks. Stuff you never really get used to!

 

Blamed my suffering on low B12, Vitamin D deficiency, root canal, flu vaccination. Tried homoeopathy, acupuncture, biofeedback, low-dose Naltrexone, amino acids. To no result, of course, despite my obsessive commitment to feeling better. Full course of lots of supplements; I’ve always been a supplements guy. About the only thing I didn’t try (so far) was orthomolecular (megavitamin) psychiatry.

 

There’s still some possibility my waves may be partly attributed to adrenals, sleep apnoea, arorexia. Triple A.

 

At times, I have considered these cycles to be bipolar depression & hypomania. Half a dozen docs, however, have told me it’s not bipolar.

 

Unlike most here on SA, I have never taken SSRIs. When prescribed a psych drug, I always think it over, do my Internet research on side effects & reactions by others (SA would be the right place to start, though I discovered you late). These were always too scary & I always turned them down.

 

SSRIs take six weeks to become effective, if they ever do for an individual. Physiological dependence, measurable changes to your brain, on the other hand, take just four weeks. This is a real Catch-22.

 

Here’s the trick shrinks rely on. “I think this might help. Do you want to give it a trial?” Instead of using their knowledge & experience (atypical antipsychotics like Quetiapine are prime examples) to thoroughly detail their patient the possible goods and the very real, often irreversible and not dose-dependent, consequences with dependence as an add-on bonus—buy one get one free! Instead they lay it on the uninformed patient. "It's entirely your decision." Can't you just smell the steam rising off that fresh bullish*t? Uninformed consent is not consent!

 

Only started recording later on for new thyroid regimen:

Good / bad cycles

#1 November 2019 - 17 days good. 24 days bad.

#2 December-January - 27 days good. 34 days bad.

#3 February-March - 18 days good. 5 days bad.

#4 March-April - 25 days good. 5 days bad.

#5 April - 9 days good. 4 days bad.

#6 April-June - 34 days good. 9 days bad.

         *Start linear taper of Mirtazapine June 2

#7 June - 8 days good. 6 days bad.

#8 June-July - 25 days great, really myself.

July 16-July 2 - 18 days bad.

#9 July 27-29 - Moderated, not quite good, 1st time.

July 30-August 1 - Good but wake at 0100-0130. 3 days.

August 2-5 - 4 days bad.

#10 August 6-23 - MYSELF but poor sleeps 18 days good

August 24-Sept 15 - 23 days bad, 3 respite days

#11 Sept 16-October 1 15 days good.

October 2- 20 18 days VERY bad

#12 Oct 21 - Dec 6 46 days VERY good

Dec 7 - Jan 8 33 days VERY bad

#13 Jan 9 - 26 16 days good

January 27 - Feb 15 20 days BAD

#14 Feb 16 - March 5 18 days Good

March 6 -April 6 31 days BAD

#15 April 7 -  April 10 4 days RESPITE good with BAD episodes

April 11 - June 2 53 days VERY good

June 3 -12 9 days BAD

#16 June 12-13 RESPITE 24 hours

June 13-24 12 days BAD w RESPITE hours, days

#17 June 25-July 29 35 days Good but many periods of anxiety

July 30-Aug 13 15 days BAD some VERY BAD

#18 Aug 14-25 11 days Good, some period of anxiety

Aug 26-Sept 2 6 days VERY BAD

#19 Sept 3-5 Transition, better w some anxiety, depression

       Sept 6-23 18 days GOOD

Sept 24-Dec 15 82 days BAD > VERY BAD

        *Start Vortioxetine 5mg; stopped after 20 days

#20 Dec 16-19 4 transition days w some anxiety, depression

       Dec 20-24 4 good days

Dec 25-28 4 days BAD > VERY BAD

#21 Dec 29- Feb 13 47 MIXED days, mostly good, 8 days very good.

          *Start Quetiapine 12.5mg for 14 days; 25mg 14 days;

50mg 14 days; 75mg & quick reduction 9 days

           *Bye-Bye Mirtazapine from 3mg

Feb 14-Mar 6 20 BAD, few good days

#22 Mar 7 - 28 21 MIXED days, anxiety attacks

Mar 29 -Jun 8 70 days VERY, VERY BAD

          *Ketamine, five infusions, ineffective

#23 Jun 9-14 7 transition days w some anxiety, depression

Jun 15- GOOD, high energy, productive, still sleepless in Siam

 

JUNE 2022 TOTAL

29 months — 411 GOOD days 514 BAD days

                        > 13 months      > 17  months

 

A good journal should include objective vital signs—(occasional) body temperature (with an analogue mercury thermometer); blood pressure; pulse; medications & supplements, their specific dosages and timings plus changes to them. Lab test results. Doc's visits & discussion.

 

Then you’ll want to get subjective. Don’t get too wordy in your suffering, you or anybody else won't read it all; this is just an exercise for reference so you don't forget. A sleep record is linchpin. Episodes of depression, suicidality, anxiety, panic.

 

This brings us to food. When & what did you eat & how did it make you feel? My own nemesis is anorexia. Life in my rough seas means no desire to shop, cook or eat.

 

Exercise. Did you do enough. There is some truth that exercise raises natural endorphins. The trick is dedication. Whatever exercises you do, do them at the same time every day. Set yourself a minimum & go over that minimum if you feel up to it.

 

I myself meditate a half-hour twice a day, yoga asanas 40-60 minutes, brisk walk in nature 40-60 minutes. Just bought a skip-rope, and I dumbbell (can always bonk myself with it as if I’m not enough of a dumbbell already!); haven’t used them yet. Thinking of buying a rebounder. I’m a couch potato, not a gym-rat, but the regularity of your practice really will get you into a <slightly> better space.

 

I may be wrong but I think regularity gives us more calm than just drifting every day.

 

Hope some of this may be useful to others here. Work on that gratitude for any momentary relief. Hell, be thankful for the pain, even—you’re alive! Acceptance. Reinvention. You’ll get there, just hang on tight. The rollercoaster may yet spit us out.

[Ariel]

Hi @unblocktheplanet

 

How to set up or make changes to your drug signature:

 

Upper right-hand corner, drop-down menu under your profile name, select Account Settings.

On Settings page, left-hand side, select Signature (it's at the bottom of the list). 

Make your edits in the Signature text box and click save. 

 

Btw I noticed in another post you'd written TIA. I didn't know what you meant so I looked it up (Thanks In Advance, for anybody curious reading this) 

I had only ever heard that acronym used for Transient Ischemic Attacks and was pretty sure that was not what you had intended, although why not? It's as good a valediction as any. 

Made me laugh. 

 

[unblocktheplanet]

Thanks, Ariel! Fixed my sig. Have I written I've had sudden onset hearing loss. Urgent MRI on Saturday. Could be a brain tumour! Wouldn't it be sweet to be able to pin the tail on this donkey? Could also be the result of them Transcient Aschemic Attacks! Though the acronym isn't quite right. I don't use many abbreviations, although I like 'aso' rather than etc. (Just 4U!)

 

BTW, I commented by your name that your parents must have been romantics. Then I realized you may have adopted the name yourself. Which...makes you the romantic!

[Ariel]

Hi @unblocktheplanet

I'm sorry about your hearing. 

 

Have you seen these topics? (if you find it helpful to read this stuff; if you'd rather avoid, please ignore) 

 

 

Also, according to your updated drug signature, you're down to two drugs only?

Congratulations!

 

Good luck with the MRI. 

I recommend ear plugs and an eye mask (maybe you know this already). 

 

Oh yeah, and this 

 

On 6/29/2022 at 4:26 AM, unblocktheplanet said:

Exercise. Did you do enough. 

 

I myself meditate a half-hour twice a day, yoga asanas 40-60 minutes, brisk walk in nature 40-60 minutes. Just bought a skip-rope, and I dumbbell (can always bonk myself with it as if I’m not enough of a dumbbell already!); haven’t used them yet. Thinking of buying a rebounder. I’m a couch potato, not a gym-rat, 

 

You also wrote about exercise in an earlier post. 

Why do you call yourself a couch potato, or sedentary?

Daily practice of "yoga asanas 40-60 minutes, brisk walk in nature 40-60 minutes" would not be considered sedentary by any contemporary metrics as far as I know. 

This seems to me to be more than adequate (it's certainly more than what I've been able to perform in WD).

My goodness, if I could do what you do -- or if either of my parents did what you do even just a few times a week -- I'd be thrilled. 

Are you being hard on yourself? 

 

Go gently <3

[unblocktheplanet]

Hi Ariel! (King of the exclamation point!)

 

I’m pretty sure the tinnitus occurred after Alprazolam. Hearing loss, however, didn’t happen until tolerance to Mirtazapine. Could be old age, eh!

 

At least my tinnitus doesn’t keep me awake like some people’s. I’ve always liked video with subtitles, even when the language spoken is English. Means I can multitask.

 

No, don’t stop! I love your links! I’m learning so much here.

 

Yes, two(pid). gettoflex suggests I wait six to eight months before starting to wean Traz but tells me she had an easier time of it so hope that works for me, too. I’m going to do a linear taper just because it’s easier…and I’m lazy.But I’m 72; at least I’ll croak trying, eh!

 

I am sure enjoying educating my shrink. I think the therapy is as good for him as for me!

 

GREAT advice about the MRI plugs & gongs. I did not know. They’re expensive! Endo wants a pituitary MRI on my symptoms, too. I was trying to get the hospital to combine them so I could pay just one price but it looks like no go.

 

Really, no potato?!? I’m at my Mac 12-15 hours a day! I’m the dumbbell!

 

Hey, I like being your Thai penpal. So here’s a pic of my yoga spot. It’s our spirit house in the front garden. Bet you'll ask me what that is!

 

 

CJ

Edited September 21, 2022 by getofflex

[Ariel]

Hi @unblocktheplanet

Thank you for your posts in my thread. I appreciate your care and concern. I feel your heart. 

 

About the so-called cortisol spike, here's what I was referring to:

I hope you are not plagued by this. 

 

Good luck with the MRI tomorrow (Saturday). 

 

Holding space for your experience <3

Sending healing vibes,

A. 

[Ariel]

P.S.

This elicited a smile and somehow made me think of you.

Bill Knott is a favorite <3

 

 

Weltende Variation #I

 

BY BILL KNOTT

 

(homage Jacob van Hoddis)

 

The CIA and the KGB exchange Christmas cards

A blade snaps in two during an autopsy

The bouquet Bluebeard gave his first date reblooms

Many protest the public stoning of a guitar pick

 

Railroad trains drop off the bourgeois’ pointy head

A martyr sticks a coffeecup out under a firehose

Moviestars make hyenas lick their spaceship

God’s hand descends into a glove held steady by the police

 

At their reunion The New Faces recognize each other

A spoiled child sleeps inside a thermometer

A single misprint in a survival manual kills everyone

The peace night makes according to the world comes

 

 

Notes:

van Hoddis: author of “the first Expressionist poem,” Weltende, published in 1910.

His poem has been aped innumerable times, hence the questionmark in my title.

 

Bill Knott, "Weltende Variation # 1," from Outremer, published by University of Iowa Press. 

Copyright 1989 by Bill Knott. 

 

[unblocktheplanet]

Sure needed those earplugs & eyeshade for the MRI. I guess doc considers this an emergency (to investigate a brain tumour--would that be sweet to blame it all on!). Only two patients, opened specially on a Saturday. Never happens in a govt hospital. Thank you!

[unblocktheplanet]

This is pretty much me, from teenage to 72!

 

THE HIPPIE CODE

In 1967, suits from Time Magazine published their own bullsh*t “hippie

code”, not ours. They got it wrong. This is the real hippie code:

 

All beings are one. Treat every being with kindness, understanding, and compassion. Be good. Do good.

 

Ahiṃsā: nonviolence. Do no harm. Never use violence, no matter what. It just doesn’t work. Nobody ‘wins’.

 

Love is all. Live love. Love everyone. Serve everyone.

 

Listen, with an open mind. It’s not you who is important. Show respect for all. And shut up.

 

You are a being of light. Educate and enlighten yourself, then share the light with others.

We have only one truth to depend on. Universal truth. Honour that truth without fear.
No one can take it away from you.

 

There are no dogmas and no karmas. Live your life today.

Fix it in your mind: What would Gandhi do?

Free yourself from expectation. It’s all in your head. Surrender.Time got the last part right: “Turn...on...to beauty, love, honesty, fun.” “Turn on. Tune in. Drop out.” was the right message.

 

Let go of the brainwashing. Be here now...

 

So...you need 6G with that? (But will we get 4D in time?) Just breathe the universe, in and out. It only needs you. And, don’t shave your head— it makes you look like a criminal!

If you need more reminders, read Be Here Now again, and again, and again, and again, until you get it!

 

Edited July 3, 2022 by ChessieCat
Resized font

[ChessieCat]

9 minutes ago, unblocktheplanet said:

Sure needed those earplugs & eyeshade for the MRI.

 

I had an MRI for my knee recently.  I was very surprised at how loud it was and the wide variety of noises that the machine made.  To distract myself I pretended I was playing Space Invaders.

[unblocktheplanet]

And l-o-n-g! No wonder it's so expensive! Govt hosp here wanted $400. (I have no insurance.) They looked at my age & discounted to $300! Sure not the same at private hosps...with Starbucks! 

[ChessieCat]

I have no insurance either and had to pay AU$200 out of my own pocket because I was under a certain age and it was requested by GP not a specialist.  But there were a couple of companies that I rang and they wanted $300 for the same thing.  But I wanted to know why my knee is so sore and at least I got an answer.  Unfortunately it didn't stop the pain but at least I know why.

[unblocktheplanet]

I think it's good to have a reason for our suffering, Chessie. All too often, there just ain't!

 

I'm pretty amazed costs for an MRI is the same in AU as they are in TH. Probably here the military skids had to get greased for important. The price of living in a military dictatorship. Western 'democracies' are better at hiding that stuff, eh!

[Ariel]

Hi @unblocktheplanet

I've run out of "hearts" to click for your post above but send you a special edition <3

 

 

[unblocktheplanet]

@Ariel At risk of you thinking I'm a dirty old man, you know what I see? (My wife often uses those symbols you did.) Me, I see boobs in a halter top! (That Y chromosome is impossible to beat to the mat, eh!)

[unblocktheplanet]

@Ariel In one of your posts, you mentioned your dalliance with ‘psychotherapy’ (in quotes because I can’t myself rightly define it nor, I think, can anyone, including therapists themselves). You wrote it was expensive & that you were unsure of its value to your bigger picture.

 

I’m luckier (if wanting/needing psychotherapy can be thought in any way fortunate) because public hospital psychotherapy here is cheap. Value, however, TBD.

 

I have been an activist my whole life. My opposition & prison against the war on Vietnam, saving old growth, fighting censorship in Thailand and abolishing military conscription here have been my life’s work. I have a rather finely-tuned conscience; I have a hard time walking past injustice.

 

On the other hand, I have a practical man. We have to pick & choose & I am pretty good at picking fights I have some chance of winning. In the larger scope, of course, I have won only skirmishes not even battles. All the evils I fought are still very much entrenched.

 

Which brings us to psychiatry. I had subsumed my active rôle in anti-psychiatry while I was working in that psych factory, how the rage against its injustice swelled in me every day I went to work. I was in my 20s—outrage is, of course, a normal condition!

 

In more recent years, my experience of tolerance, waves & windows, and withdrawal have lit a spark in me. My shrink, who calls himself Dr ECT, is a kind & intelligent man. Too intelligent for me to push, or even direct.

 

However, without my conscious intention, I find myself guiding his therapy in a direction counter to his training. Yesterday, I found out this approach has start to bear small flowers, if not yet buds or fruit. He told me he is counseling, on an ad hoc basis, a young man when his first inclination was to prescribe him psych drugs.

 

Now, I will not take credit for this. He’s a smart man. But by slowly guiding our conversations to the core concepts at SA, perhaps I can be of some positive influence, save a few of us nutjobs from the fate we continue to live.

 

It’s sure easy to give up on docs. But I sense there may be redemption for this one.

 

I also think this approach of mine is a big part of my ‘therapy’, gives me value.

 

Musing out loud…

[unblocktheplanet]

A little more. I hate the word 'client'. It stinks of lucre. 'Clients' belong to bankers & lawyers & other vermin. They're 'helping' you for money. Shrink finds 'patient' sounds too clinical.

 

If therapists are, stay with me, midwives for deliver our psyches, what can they call us recipients, what can we call ourselves? 

[Ariel]

6 hours ago, unblocktheplanet said:

If therapists are, stay with me, midwives for deliver our psyches, what can they call us recipients, what can we call ourselves? 

 

If your psyche's the baby, you might consider yourself the after-birth. 

unblocktheplacenta 

 

 

[unblocktheplanet]

Okay, A, biggest laugh all day! We ate our son's placenta & I worked up a placenta cookbook for a bit but somebody beat me to the punch. We're the only mammals in nature who don't eat their placentas. Incidentally, tastes like having a bloody nose!

[Knosretep]

Hi @unblocktheplanet

 

Didn't even notice the other day in my thread your location, and that you're also an expat living in Thailand!  I stopped by, but have been feeling so out of it due to a recent wave that I don't feel like I have much more to offer than to tell you that I enjoyed reading your posts here.  I find most expats have quite interesting lives, and you're certainly no exception. 🙂

[unblocktheplanet]

Hi Knosretep, Glad to know you. SA has been a real eye-opener for me. Your drug history is short. I had 20 years of two drugs but then dabbled for a few months.

 

As you must know, Thailand has no compounding pharmacies (whatever do they teach them in pharm school?!?). Finished a linear taper of Mirtazapine in Feb 2022, big wave for four months, better now. Nevertheless, will heal for eight months at gettoflex' advice, and start to taper Trazodone 50mg in November. I've got a great compounder in Canada. I'm going to do a linear taper & see if it works.

 

My Alprazolam is a different story. I have no pension thus use public hospitals here. Though their pharmacies will not compound in dry form, it appears they are capable to creating liquid suspensions. As we each learn more, we can educate & broaden docs & pharmacists aso.

Edited September 21, 2022 by getofflex

[Ninabird]

Hi @unblocktheplanet

Just wanted to stop by and say hello. Hope all is well. 

NB

[Knosretep]

4 hours ago, unblocktheplanet said:

My Alprazolam is a different story. I have no pension thus use public hospitals here. Though their pharmacies will not compound in dry form, it appears they are capable to creating liquid suspensions. As we each learn more, we can educate & broaden docs & pharmacists aso.

 

Have you read the Ashton Manual? https://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/

 

I recommend crossing over to Diazepam as Ashton did with all her patients.  You will be able to taper down with just a normal pill cutter.  There is becoming less and less doubt that these drugs cause permanent damage. https://neurosciencenews.com/anxiety-drugs-cognition-20932/

 

[Onmyway]

1 hour ago, Knosretep said:

 

Have you read the Ashton Manual? https://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/

 

I recommend crossing over to Diazepam as Ashton did with all her patients.  You will be able to taper down with just a normal pill cutter.  There is becoming less and less doubt that these drugs cause permanent damage. https://neurosciencenews.com/anxiety-drugs-cognition-20932/

 

The fact that these drugs act on the microglia does not mean that the changes are permanent. This is mouse research which may or may not translate to humans and even if the changes of the microglia are functional, nothing in this report seems to indicate that these are permanent. Whether benzos cause dementia or not is also still not definitively shown. Pls be careful in making statements like that. They may unnecessarily scare vulnerable people here. 

[unblocktheplanet]

Thanks for your greetings, Ninabird. Better than good at the mo'. Getting all those riddles done I couldn't while crushed for 10 months!

 

Knosretep, I have the great respect for the Ashton Manual. But we live in Thailand & it is what it is here. Sure I'd prefer Diazepam for tapering. But Clonazepam has a longer half-life than Alpraz & is available in suspension without compounding so that's like the way I'll go.

 

Pretty weary of compounding in Canada, Covid delays, Canada Post, Thailand Post, potential Customs hassle (never so far). I've got enough stuff to think about without maybe it harder.

 

Benzodiazepines have never been clinically implicated in dementia. There's even a 2022 study stating the same.

 

Cognitive decline is, however, a different animal. I still want to be the sharpest tack in the box.

 

Permanent? Folks here on SA are living proof the brain can repair itself, given enough TLC.

[Ariel]

Hi @unblocktheplanet

 

Reading this made me smile:

 

28 minutes ago, unblocktheplanet said:

Better than good at the mo'. Getting all those riddles done I couldn't while crushed for 10 months!

 

Happy for you. Enjoy!

 

[unblocktheplanet]

Dang that spell-check. Can't figger out how to turn the dratted thing off!

 

Well, yes, it's a mystery & all but I meant to say tiddles!

 

I'm working on being The Flash these days before the wave breaks again! Ha! Take that, evil pharma!

 

 

CJ

[Knosretep]

2 hours ago, unblocktheplanet said:

Knosretep, I have the great respect for the Ashton Manual. But we live in Thailand & it is what it is here. Sure I'd prefer Diazepam for tapering. But Clonazepam has a longer half-life than Alpraz & is available in suspension without compounding so that's like the way I'll go.

 

Yeah, that sounds like a good way to proceed.  I was never told this was available here when I said I was planning on beginning tapering, but this is the same hospital that switched me from 5mg Diazepam to 2mg Clonazepam saying it was better for sleep...

 

2 hours ago, unblocktheplanet said:

Benzodiazepines have never been clinically implicated in dementia. There's even a 2022 study stating the same.

 

Is this the study you are referring? https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34727174/

 

 

 

2 hours ago, unblocktheplanet said:

Cognitive decline is, however, a different animal. I still want to be the sharpest tack in the box.

 

Permanent? Folks here on SA are living proof the brain can repair itself, given enough TLC.

 

I certainly hope not, but I'm not taking my chances and am getting off this poison as quickly as I can safely manage.

 

[unblocktheplanet]

Was it Moe Howard who said, "Not so fast! Not so fast!" Yes, we were sure sold a bill of goods.

 

When you say 'same hospital' are you in Bangkok & talking about Chula? Damned place is starting to feel like my living room.

 

Thanks for the ref. Yes, that is the one I read.

 

The trouble with Clonazepam is that it's reputed to be more addictive than Alprazolam. However, I have only heard that anecdotally. They're all a b****!

 

[Knosretep]

6 minutes ago, unblocktheplanet said:

Was it Moe Howard who said, "Not so fast! Not so fast!" Yes, we were sure sold a bill of goods.

 

When you say 'same hospital' are you in Bangkok & talking about Chula? Damned place is starting to feel like my living room.

 

No, I live in a larger city in northern Thailand.  This was a private hospital.  The doctor seemed so remorseless and uncaring the fate that had befallen me at his hands that I switched doctors because I couldn't stand to see him anymore.

 

6 minutes ago, unblocktheplanet said:

Thanks for the ref. Yes, that is the one I read.

 

I just found another 2022 study: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34410381/

 

6 minutes ago, unblocktheplanet said:

 

The trouble with Clonazepam is that it's reputed to be more addictive than Alprazolam. However, I have only heard that anecdotally. They're all a b****!

 

Well, the Ashton Manual specifically calls it out as being a bad taper candidate, but part of that reason is negated if you're doing liquid titration.  Yes they are!

 

'Some doctors in the US switch patients onto clonazepam (Klonopin, [Rivotril in Canada]), believing that it will be easier to withdraw from than say alprazolam (Xanax) or lorazepam (Ativan) because it is more slowly eliminated. However, Klonopin is far from ideal for this purpose. It is an extremely potent drug, is eliminated much faster than diazepam (See Table 1, Chapter I), and the smallest available tablet in the US is 0.5mg (equivalent to 10mg diazepam) and 0.25mg in Canada (equivalent to 5mg Valium). It is difficult with this drug to achieve a smooth, slow fall in blood concentration, and there is some evidence that withdrawal is particularly difficult from high potency benzodiazepines, including Klonopin'

[unblocktheplanet]

Hi Knosretep, I have not consulted an endo here who is not so blown up , I kept looking for a pin! Several shrinks I have encountered are real people.

 

Rule of thumb: NEVER use private hospitals unless you’re some kind of trust fund guy. Even if you have insurance, it is unlikely to cover outpatient.

 

The system here, as in the West, means it’s very hard to change docs once they’ve tightened through saddle-straps. The only recourse is registering at a different hospital which may not have been your first choice.

 

However, like all of us, there are good & bad docs everywhere. But you have to be a persistent gambler & not fold on the first hand.

 

We patients pay their wages. So act like it. I am not telling you to be arrogant or impatient, which is how all Thais see us anyway. Be a good listener, you may have to take their views home to ponder. Then develop your own refutes & how it would work ever so much better your way. Social engineering. Be sure & preen their feathers & tell them what magnificent plumage they have along the way.

 

Gosh, everybody on SA is so weird about just plain saying where they live! One poster lists Turkey; I need some meds from Turkey, asked for a pharmacy connection. No reply. She writes like a Yank; I suspect she’s got only tenuous connection to Turkey & does not live there. Another, a fine person, states “EU”; yeah, right.

 

And all these disclaimers! We are the professionals. The docs are, by & large, the pretenders, the charlatans. So, as Steve Jobs baked into MacOS, Sosumi.

 

Could be worse. Hardly any GPs to go around in NA. Walk-in clinics where you see a doc for the max 10 minutes & single complaint govt insurance allows. You’ll never see that doc again. So what does he care?

 

Thank you for the quote. When the time comes, more than a year down the road (I’m 72), I may have to rethink Clonazepam suspension. But I’m lazy. I need the convenience. Perhaps I will be able to schmooze a pharmacist to actually do what they’ve been (hopefully) trained to do. I’ve even investigated compounders in KL & Singapore.

 

Otherwise, perhaps I can develop the skills to prepare a Diazepam suspension myself. How see you that  liquid suspension makes Clonazepam less of a bad taper candidate? Simply by being able to titrate more finely?

[Knosretep]

3 hours ago, unblocktheplanet said:

Rule of thumb: NEVER use private hospitals unless you’re some kind of trust fund guy. Even if you have insurance, it is unlikely to cover outpatient.

 

The only public psychiatric hospital here has a 3-4 hour wait and then you end up seeing a random doctor who just tries to get you through as fast as possible because there's so many people waiting.  I thought by paying $20 to see a private doctor I'd avoid losing a whole afternoon and hopefully get a better qualified person.  The doctor that I switched to seems to have much more experience dealing with people who've had trouble withdrawing, speaks better English, and is also way more friendly and personable.

 

Although, I told him how difficult and slowly I was going with my Clonazepam tapering and that I wanted to crossover to Diazepam.  First he said there was no need to crossover since Clonazepam has a long half life, but then after agreeing to prescribe Diazepam said that I should be able to get off in 3 months whereas it was taking me 2 years to get off Clonazepam?!?

 

Anyways, I only go there now to get refills basically.  I have to pay the doctor fee even if I just call in so I figure I may as well talk to him just to let him know where I am at with the taper.  I know I could go to any other private hospital and get a prescription, but that would require registering like you say and I already go to the closest one.

 

3 hours ago, unblocktheplanet said:

Gosh, everybody on SA is so weird about just plain saying where they live! One poster lists Turkey; I need some meds from Turkey, asked for a pharmacy connection. No reply. She writes like a Yank; I suspect she’s got only tenuous connection to Turkey & does not live there. Another, a fine person, states “EU”; yeah, right.

 

SA wants its members to remain as anonymous as possible.  I think the location is just for drug availability reasons, time zones, etc.

 

3 hours ago, unblocktheplanet said:

Thank you for the quote. When the time comes, more than a year down the road (I’m 72), I may have to rethink Clonazepam suspension. But I’m lazy. I need the convenience. Perhaps I will be able to schmooze a pharmacist to actually do what they’ve been (hopefully) trained to do. I’ve even investigated compounders in KL & Singapore.

 

Otherwise, perhaps I can develop the skills to prepare a Diazepam suspension myself. How see you that  liquid suspension makes Clonazepam less of a bad taper candidate? Simply by being able to titrate more finely?

 

Yes.  You could dilute so much that you'd be able to taper so slowly you'd never even feel the withdrawal.

[unblocktheplanet]

No, no, no! You don’t need a psych hospital! I worked in one seven years—they are seriously scary places!

 

What you need is the psych dept at a public hospital. Every hosp will have one. Chances are, unless you have connections there (you know how Thailand works), you’ll first see a third- or fourth-year psych resident.

 

They might be great. I’ve see some smart & intelligent kids on the move. But the whole kriengjai thing gets in the way, you know what I’m saying? They’ve got no power.

 

So if you draw one with whom the chemistry is not right for you, it will take a few visits to angle for a qualified shrink. Personally, I would avoid anybody calling themselves ajarn. Most of those lost that broomstick up there somewhere.

 

A humble ajarn just calls himself ‘doctor’. Mine calls himself Dr ECT!

 

I pay B250/visit. If your need drugs, make sure to ask for generics.

 

Another tip: NEVER go for the offered evening private clinics! Same docs, B1,000.

 

Listen, Knosretep, what else have we got but time? Bring a book. Enjoy the people watching. Everybody’s kinder, less fake, at a public hospital. Most of the docs don’t even have side gigs at private hospitals or their own clinics. These guys are not out buying Boxsters.

 

What is taught to shrinks about deprescribing is laughable. You need to guide the show, using the info found on here by others who been through it. Our job is to educate the shrinks & keep somebody else from going through this, right?

 

Three months?!? BS. If one follows Ashton, even at 1mg, you’re looking at 2 years.

[Ariel]

6 hours ago, unblocktheplanet said:

Sweet Ariel, due to a couple of your recent postings, I wanted to tell you what was happening during my recent 10-month wave which I now consider withdrawal pangs.

 

Those are different than hunger pangs. More like concentration camp starvation.

 

- I didn’t want to go to bed vecause I knew I wouldn’t sleep.

 

- I didn’t want to get out of bed because I knew I’d not only drag myself through the day with deep depression, anxiety, social phobia, agoraphobia, anorexia but my only hope was waiting for bed when I could ascend that sweet stairway to heaven.

 

* In short, it was purgatory. I was in death’s waiting room from September 2021-June 2022.

 

- Not only did I consider checking myself into a locked psych ward (which I can ill afford &, c’mon you know, would do zippo for my mental health), I had a suitcase packed (no sharps or glass) for five months.

 

- Wait! I could ask for more drugs! That might even be lower than the next option. I live in Thailand. A brief, inexpensive hilltribe trek would get me an opium connection. If one is going to be addicted, might as well be to something doesn’t make you crazy(er).

 

- Suicide? Oh, yeah. I’d ride public transport & long for every balcony. Was it high enough, was there a nice solid surface on which to splat so I didn’t break my fall or, worse, break any innocent below. I weighed every tree for the strength & accessibility of its branches. Was it high enough, private enough I would not be discovered.

 

The sea. It’s warm here. I can’t swim. I could just float that moonbeam forever. Maybe it wouldn’t hurt those I love as much if there were doubt. It would look like an accident. And I’d be free.

 

I do logistics, planning. I’m a pragmatist. Worthless as I felt, there was still this niggling doubt, I’d leave a small pinpoint hold in the universe, a loose thread.

 

And then, mother of all mysteries, it broke. And I’m the pushy PITA you’ve come to know!

 

So I met you in the produce aisle. Can I have that first dance? How’s the weather in EU, anyway?

 

I'm still sleeping like shite, 2-5 hours at most. Little Nemo helps: https://en.th1lib.org/book/3602754/765ee4. You'll have to register to download. I've been using Z-Library for years, there's no trickery there.

 

Thank you for your message in my thread. 

It's always a pleasure to read you. 

 

I'm sorry you went through a 10-month wave. Sounds horrid!

Was there anything in particular that helped you cope on a day-to-day basis?

 

I'm so glad you're currently feeling better. All the more impressive considering ongoing sleep issues. 

Healing is happening!

 

Take care of yourself, go gently <3 

[unblocktheplanet]

Thanks, A. Funny how knowing about the suffering of others doesn't make us feel better, eh!

 

What got me through? Faking it, forcing it. Routine, esp yoga asanas. But minimal function that whole time.

 

Communication, being in touch. Esp with people who didn't complain about my moaning!