unblocktheplanet

[unblocktheplanet]

I'll give this a try & report back. I'm pretty sure we have some around the house but maybe not the liquid kind. Thank you!

[unblocktheplanet]

Robert, not sure if this might be interesting/helpful to you:

https://www.everywomanover29.com/blog/rebound-insomnia-after-tapering-a-benzodiazepine-will-taking-gaba-or-any-other-natural-supplement-interfere-with-healing/

 

I’m not a great fan of Trudy Scott, just because none of her strategies have worked for me. This could as easily be my fault!

 

But this article speaks to those here on SA who are tapering Clonazepam, focusing on rebound insomnia. Not sure if it should be posted elsewhere.

 

 

CJ

[unblocktheplanet]

SA members who read me are aware that the wave I'm in now coincided with Vitamin B12 (cyanocobalamin) self-injections for sudden-onset deafness. Hearing doc is now recommending Gingko biloba. Has anyone here found it activating in WD? Thanks!

[ChessieCat]

32 minutes ago, unblocktheplanet said:

Gingko biloba. Has anyone here found it activating in WD?

 

There are many existing topics on SA.  You can search using the site search function or by using an internet search engine and add site:survivingantidepressants.org to the search term.

[unblocktheplanet]

Thanks, Chessie. I have done that search but the practice seems so scattershot & experiences so random, they're not a lot to go on. In any case, a wider consult with Dr Google indicates Gingko is contraindicated both with Trazodone & Alprazolam, the two villains still to fall.

 

Acceptance, eh. I'll have to learn to live with it.

 

(Hehe), I do my best not to start new topics but add to existing threads where I think my input might help others or I might be helped by others. Mostly, I try to just post here in my own thread & hope others may discover them.

 

Edited September 19, 2022 by ChessieCat
removed expletive

[unblocktheplanet]

@gettoflex @ChessieCat

Dear getofflex & Chessie, finally I get to tag you with a tapering question!

 

Although I finished Mirtazapine in February, I did Quetiapine into April & Ketamine a couple of weeks after that. Been having waves & windows ever since.

 

You told me to take six to eight months to heal before starting my second taper, Trazodone. Probably makes it Dec or Jan 1st. I’m good with that though sleep has always been my bugbear.

 

Now I’m going to throw in a wildcard. After reading the book & watching the four-part Netflix series, How to Change Your Mind, and finding a trustworthy source here, I’m going to start microdosing psilocybin. 

 

Honestly, I’d rather do a full therapeutic dose to see what happens (even if what happens is a tsunami!) but I have not found an experienced, compassionate doula / midwife / guide / therapist. In addition to finding one, of course, one has to build a relationship of trust. And I don’t think I’d find it healing just to try it on my own.

 

I am, of course, of the ‘better living through chemistry’ generation. (Ha! Look where it got me!) Psychedelics require mindset & a setting in which one feels safe. TBD, eh. (Not CBD!)

 

Thank you! 

 

 

CJ

Bangkok

Edited September 21, 2022 by getofflex

[ChessieCat]

On 9/19/2022 at 3:38 AM, unblocktheplanet said:

@ChessieCat

Dear getofflex & Chessie, finally I get to tag you with a tapering question!

 

This is clearly stated in my signature:

 

Please DO NOT TAG me - thank you

Edited September 21, 2022 by getofflex

[ChessieCat]

28 minutes ago, unblocktheplanet said:

Now I’m going to throw in a wildcard. After reading the book & watching the four-part Netflix series, How to Change Your Mind, and finding a trustworthy source here, I’m going to start microdosing psilocybin. 

 

Q:  Why would try something that you do not know how you are going to react to?

 

Please see the following:

  

On 6/16/2011 at 4:45 AM, Altostrata said:

We do not advocate experimenting with hallucinogenics, psychedelic mushrooms, herbs, adaptogenics, or any gray-market drug. You never know exactly what you're getting and results are unpredictable even in people whose nervous systems have not been compromised by adverse drug reactions.

 

If your nervous system has been sensitized by adverse effects from psychiatric drugs (or street drugs) or withdrawal, , you could make yourself a lot worse by experimenting with hallucinogenics, etc., and the only remedy is to cope with your symptoms until they go away. We don't have any magic potions for you.

 

Try such substances at your own risk. If you take street drugs or gray-market drugs and have an adverse reaction, we may not be able to provide you support as you recover and may ask you to leave SurvivingAntidepressants.org.

 
(We do not know of any drugs or drug combination that will fix withdrawal syndrome. Reinstatement of the original drug, often at a low dose, sometimes helps and sometimes does not.)

 

 

[unblocktheplanet]

Yikes, so sorry, Chessie! I guess I had your sig mixed up with getofflex's. NOT intentional.

 

Why I am interested in psychedelic therapy is because they proved great spiritual teachers in my youth. (It is unlikely they are the reason I'm crazy now!)

 

I do urge you to watch that series. We all got antidepressants because something wasn't right with us. That's docs are careless & callous & uneducated in deprescribing is, of course, not the patient's fault.

 

I've never been a gambling man but psychedelic therapy may be a calculated risk for me. There's a lot of hype these days but they seem to be effective for some people (haha! just like ADs?)

 

Frankly, i haven't decided yet but I ain't getting any younger. I do believe in them as powerful spiritual teachers. Certainly, they proved themselves in my youth. Never took them for fun.

 

I do not expect them to 'fix withdrawal' but perhaps to gain some acceptance of my good & bad cycles.

 

Thanks, Chess. I'll NEVER tag you again! Kick me twice...

Edited September 21, 2022 by getofflex

[ChessieCat]

12 minutes ago, unblocktheplanet said:

Why I am interested in psychedelic therapy is because they proved great spiritual teachers in my youth.

 

Just because something worked previously does not mean that it will work the same way now:

 

 

[ChessieCat]

And this one:

 

 

[Shep]

2 hours ago, unblocktheplanet said:

Why I am interested in psychedelic therapy is because they proved great spiritual teachers in my youth. (It is unlikely they are the reason I'm crazy now!)

 

I do urge you to watch that series. We all got antidepressants because something wasn't right with us. That's docs are careless & callous & uneducated in deprescribing is, of course, not the patient's fault.

 

If your nervous system weren't damaged by psychiatric drugs, this might be a good idea. But that series isn't based on people with damaged nervous systems. 

 

Going running is great exercise and a wonderful way to improve your health. But not if you have a broken leg. 

 

Many people get drugged because it's the larger systems that need to be fixed - we need livable wages, rent-controlled housing, affordable college and universities, etc. None of that will be fixed by psychedelics. So some of the ideology of fixing the individual is still found in the psychedelic therapy literature. 

 

It's a much bigger picture, so please don't go down paths that may make your journey harder, especially while your nervous system is still in recovery. 

[Mirtazapine20mg]

Hi unblocktheplanet, I myself am constantly looking for solutions to my withdrawal. And I have taken mirtazapine in the same timespan as you and it is f-ing me daily. I have also been following this psychedelics debate. I haven't been a part of the psychedelics scene - I was born just too late. So it is an honest question from me: If psychedelics have antidepressiv properties, wouldn’t this news long ago have spread like wildfire in society? Example: I stopped smoking by vaping. The first viable e-cigaret was made in China 2003, and 10 years later I dispensed of the cigarettes and was vaping in Denmark.

[Altostrata]

If we thought microdosing psychedelics worked to get people off psychiatric drugs, we'd recommend it to everyone and close this site.

 

If you want to experiment with other drugs and get a bad reaction, we're probably not going to have any solutions for it other than wait until the bad reaction goes away.

 

We cannot advise on tapering while you're microdosing, too many confounds,

[unblocktheplanet]

Hi Mirtazapine, I don't propose that any psychedelics (and each of the classics: LSD, psilocybin, mescaline, and the differently-acting MDMA, react differently in different folks) could ease withdrawal.

 

What I do think is that psychedelics may help me to understand the physiological, biological and psychological processes active throughout withdrawal & often long-post-withdrawal.

 

My interest in microdosing and/or full psychedelic therapy is exactly the same as it was when I was a young man: spiritual healing, whole person integration, one with the universe, the meaning of life.

 

We all got to the point of prescriptions because we were feeling bad. The feeling bad part of withdrawal seems to be exactly what drove me to psych meds in the first place. Psychotherapy of all sorts has its place. But it, including psychedelics, is not a cure. THERE IS NO CURE, I believe. (Nor run for the cure / run from the cure.)

 

What I'm looking for is a fuller understanding of myself. I mean, we have these receptors in the brain for some biological imperative, right?

 

1) I do not believe all the hype about psychedelics being a panacea, a cure for depression & anxiety. 2) Nor do I believe in the scare-mongering that psychedelics can drive you permanently crazy. That's mostly spread by people with no experience or never having known anyone who had success with psychedelics as spiritual experience. The scaremongers drink govt's Kool-Aid. Diane Linklater did not jump out of the window because of LSD. Those Upenn students did not go blind from staring at the sun. Nonsense!

 

So my question is, could psychedelics prolong or worsen or delay withdrawal from the psych drugs I'm tapering & weaning. Maybe. There's certainly an element of fear in me over this course of action. I'm very much trying to weigh benefit to risk.

 

Watch How to Change Your Mind (it changed my mind!) and read the book. Read A Really Good Day: How Microdosing Made a Mega Difference in My Mood, My Marriage, and My Life. And make your own decisions.

 

 

Edited September 21, 2022 by Shep
edited per unblocktheplanet's PM

[unblocktheplanet]

Alto, as you can see from my post in reply to Mirtazapine, I'm on the fence. I'm not an advocate nor a detractor. We just don't know. I can't find a single incidence on SA of anybody who employed psychedelics in a responsible manner as therapy.

 

And I'm full cognizant that it might throw me into the pit (again) and that I would just have to wait until the end of any bad reaction. But, like psych drugs, I do think any bad reaction will eventually end, just like PAWS.

 

Believe me, whatever I decide, I'll be keeping this caring SA community in my loop. Even if I go loopy!

 

Thanks, Alto. 

[Altostrata]

@unblocktheplanet please do make decisions that you feel are best for you. However, we may not be able to give you any support if you experiment with psychedelics. You might join reddit or someplace to get advice on any problems.

[unblocktheplanet]

I get it, Alto. No decisions yet. Actually, not being able to make decisions is a big component of my waves!

 

I have no wish to encourage anyone to any harm...or myself.

 

Thank you!

[ChessieCat]

3 hours ago, unblocktheplanet said:

Actually, not being able to make decisions is a big component of my waves!

 

What I have observed here at SA since I've been a member is that people feel compelled to do something to try and fix things and are impatient and aren't willing to be patient and leave well enough alone and let the brain do what it does naturally which is makes the changes that it needs to regain homeostasis.

 

I have found all 3 of these very helpful in understanding what is happening:

 

Video:  Healing From Antidepressants - Patterns of Recovery

 

  

On 8/31/2011 at 5:28 AM, Rhiannon said:

When we stop taking the drug, we have a brain that has designed itself so that it works in the presence of the drug; now it can't work properly without the drug because it's designed itself so that the drug is part of its chemistry and structure. It's like a plant that has grown on a trellis; you can't just yank out the trellis and expect the plant to be okay. When the drug is removed, the remodeling process has to take place in reverse. SO--it's not a matter of just getting the drug out of your system and moving on. If it were that simple, none of us would be here. It's a matter of, as I describe it, having to grow a new brain. I believe this growing-a-new-brain happens throughout the taper process if the taper is slow enough. (If it's too fast, then there's not a lot of time for actually rebalancing things, and basically the brain is just pedaling fast trying to keep us alive.) It also continues to happen, probably for longer than the symptoms actually last, throughout the time of recovery after we are completely off the drug, which is why recovery takes so long.

 

AND

 

  

On 12/27/2015 at 6:37 AM, Altostrata said:

Basically- you have a building where the MAJOR steel structures are [...] to be rebuilt at different times - ALL while people are coming and going in the building and attempting to work.

It would be like if the World Trade Center Towers hadn't completely fallen - but had crumbled inside in different places.. Imagine if you were [...] to rebuild the tower - WHILE people were coming and going and [...] to work in the building!  You'd have to set up a temporary elevator - but when you needed to fix part of that area, you'd have to tear down that elevator and set up a temporary elevator somewhere else. And so on. You'd have to build, work around, then tear down, then build again, then work around, then build... ALL while people are coming and going, ALL while the furniture is being replaced, ALL while the walls are getting repainted... ALL while [...] is going on INSIDE the building. No doubt it would be chaotic. That is EXACTLY what is happening with windows and waves.  The windows are where the body has "got it right" for a day or so - but then the building shifts and the brain works on something else - and it's chaos again while another temporary pathway is set up to reroute function until repairs are made. 

 

[unblocktheplanet]

Honestly, Chessie, I don’t think that’s me. I’m pretty happy to ramble along till a safe time (eight months) to start the next taper, suffering my waves (sometimes a tsunami) and plaing in my windows.

 

The only reason I mentioned the other (& I really did not mean to derail anybody, talk out of school or make extra work for wonderful, dedicated volunteer mods) is that’s where I come from…the 60s. It was a big part of the work I did on myself. It was not frequent or profligate throughout my life but it helped me check-in every now & again.

 

I guess you could say I’m a believer. It’s not for everybody. And I’m not tempted to say if you haven’t been there, you couldn’t understand. I hear you, Chessie, and am grateful for your caring.

 

I’m 72. I’m not impatient, just old. If I stick to just tapering, with its ups & downs, I don’t think I’m ever going to learn anything about the roots of what got me here.

 

Before I go, I’d like to know, or at least have an inkling. I have never in my life advised this path to anyone. Might be right for me, might not…right now. I’m on the fence.

 

I should point out that I have never done this since I started ADs in 2002. So it’s not only the tapering & withdrawal that concerns me. I’m sure others on ADs have but it certainly adds to the chemistry.

 

I actually twigged to both those posts before. Thank you. And I will watch the video.

 

 

CJ

Bangkok

[Altostrata]

Your longtime use of alprazolam may be responsible for foggy brain, if that's what you're experiencing, and the trazodone isn't helping.

[unblocktheplanet]

I figure that, too. Step by step is all I can do. Start Trazodone taper December or January.

 

Thanks, Alto.

[Gridley]

On 9/23/2022 at 7:00 AM, unblocktheplanet said:

’m 72. I’m not impatient, just old.

Hi, unblocktheplanet.  I just wanted to give you a note of encouragement and camaraderie from someone in a similar place.  I

 

I'm 74, six years in to a multi-drug taper.  I'll be around 80 or so when I finish my tapers and am totally committed to being drug-free, regardless of how much time remains.  It's a matter of principle, and for me the only way out is through.  

 

As the poet said, grow old along with me, the best is yet to be.  I learn something new every day, I'm fulfilling my life contract, and when I go out it'll be with my boots on.  

 

 

[Altostrata]

Nice to see you, @Gridley

[unblocktheplanet]

@Gridley Dude, watch out for us geriatrics, eh! Thank you for your note of encouragement, Gridley. I'm committed to this even if I'm finished before the taper is. By our ages, we think we're experienced & a little wiser. So it's pretty discouraging to find out we've been tricked, deceived, and played for fools too late to do much about it. Spent my whole life sidestepping such cheaters only to discover, near the end, the cheaters were the upstanding, respected people we were taught to trust! The irony, eh.

 

I've always had a finely-tuned conscience but I've mostly used it to save others from injustice. Now I find I'm turning that same light on myself.

 

Stay strong, Brother. Good health to you!

 

 

CJ

Bangkok

 

 

P.S. Wow! Retired to Ecuador! So cool!

[Terry]

On 10/20/2022 at 10:08 AM, Gridley said:

I'm 74, six years in to a multi-drug taper.  I'll be around 80 or so when I finish my tapers and am totally committed to being drug-free, regardless of how much time remains.

There are a few of us in our 70s on SA.  I'll be over 80 before I'm done tapering, if I survive that long.  I just hope I'll have some quality time then without residual side effects. 

 

I'm glad to see you posting again.  Wishing you smooth tapers and eventual freedom from these drugs. 

[unblocktheplanet]

Just did annual labs. SA suggests all supplements are 'activating' except for Magnesium & Omega-3 while tapering & in withdrawal.

 

However, my Vitamin B12 is really low, making me worried about the rest of the Bs & others, like Zinc & Selenium.

 

B12 451.97 pg/mL [desired 600-900), lower still than 2021 while I was tapering Mirtazapine.

 

I'm already in a heavy wave. Should I start to supplement B12? Personal experiences, please.

 

Someone here on SA saw benefit with NAC for anxiety. I've given it a try over a few months but it has not changed my depressive cycles.

 

Similarly, a friend had improvement with DLPA for depression (dose is important--too much can cause anxiety). Trying this one on now.

 

Thanks, everyone.

 

CJ

Bangkok

[Altostrata]

12 hours ago, unblocktheplanet said:

SA suggests all supplements are 'activating' except for Magnesium & Omega-3 while tapering & in withdrawal.

 

No, we do not suggest all supplements are activating. We have observed the B vitamins can be activating when taken in normal amounts.

 

If you need vitamin B12 supplementation, you might start with a crumb of a B12 tablet in the morning and very gradually increase it until you are taking the usual 1,000mcg per day.

 

This is explained in 

 

 

In the future, if you have questions about a supplement, please use search in the Symptoms and Self-Care forum to read our discussions about it.

[unblocktheplanet]

Thanks, Alto. I'm pretty confused these days so didn't think to look there. Sorry.

[unblocktheplanet]

@brassmonkey

I weaned 18 years of Mirtazapine just over a year ago by a 10-month linear taper. 

 

I am experiencing longer waves now, one very slightly shallower. The waves were not quite so long throughout tapering. The present wave is the worst yet.

 

The waves got long three months after weaning 70, 40 & the current 69 days & counting. The symptoms don’t change much. 

 

The windows, too, are long—66 & 76 days. Does anybody else have long waves like this?

 

Docs tell us: bipolar, rebound, or relapse depression. Just hoping this is not my permanent state.

 

I won’t be tapering Trazodone & after Alprazolam until I get stable. IF! (Scared, to be honest.) 

 

Thanks for your help.

[Altostrata]

13 hours ago, unblocktheplanet said:

The waves got long three months after weaning 70, 40 & the current 69 days & counting. The symptoms don’t change much. 

 

Please explain what this means.

 

What times o'clock do you take each of your drugs, with their dosages?

[unblocktheplanet]

Thanks, Alto. Sorry to be unclear.

 

Mirtazapine 30 mg HS linear taper weaned December 2021. I currently take Trazodone 50 mg & Alprazolam 1 mg HS.

 

#19 Sept 3-5 Transition, better w some anxiety, depression

       Sept 6-23 18 days GOOD

       Sept 24-Dec 15 82 days BAD > VERY BAD

#20 Dec 16-19 4 transition days w some anxiety, depression

       Dec 20-24 4 good days

       Dec 25-28 4 days BAD > VERY BAD

#21 Dec 29- Feb 13 47 MIXED days, mostly good, 8 days very good.

        Feb 14-Mar 6 20 BAD, few good days

#22 Mar 7 - 28 21 MIXED days, anxiety attacks

        Mar 29 -Jun 8 70 days VERY, VERY BAD

#23 Jun 9-14 7 transition days

        Jun 15-Aug 8 66 days V.GOOD, high energy, productive

#24 Aug 9-Sep 17 40 days BAD>VERY BAD>NOT So BAD

        Sep 8- Nov 22 76 days GOOD, high energy > PERFECT

#25 Nov 23 - VERY, VERY BAD

 

The waves were shorter while tapering until the Mirtazapine doses got small. My question is, are these months-long waves experienced by others?

 

My physical & mental symptoms of anxiety & depression remain the same during each crash. 

[Altostrata]

Sorry, I don't understand what these notations starting with #19 mean. What year are these notes talking about?

 

If you went off mirtazapine in December 2021 (though your signature says it was February 2022, possibly), why do these notes start in September (of what year)? And why is this of interest?

 

I still don't see an answer to: What times o'clock do you take each of your drugs, with their dosages?

 

You take your drugs "HS"? We don't know what that means. If you take your drugs on an inconsistent schedule, you can expect odd symptoms or waves as long as you're taking the drugs. That is not mirtazapine withdrawal syndrome.

[unblocktheplanet]

My bad! Didn’t read my own sig. Yes, linear-tapered Mirtazapine 30 mg from June 2021 to wean in February 2022.

 

Sorry for the confusion. These symptom notes are through my Mirtazapine taper. #19 & 20 are 2021. #21-25 are 2022 up to the present.

 

What they point to is waves & windows, possibly. So I’m asking: 

 - are these months-long waves (and windows) experienced by others?

 - are these waves Mirtazapine WD 11 months out?

 - or…bipolar, rebound, or relapse depression?

 

Trazodone 50 mg, Alprazolam 1 mg at bed (hora somni, HS). Always consistent time.

[Altostrata]

I cannot answer your question because I cannot follow your drug and symptom chronology, or the meaning of your notations. Only you know what "bad" means.

 

I still don't know what times o'clock you take each of your drugs, with their dosages. A time o'clock would be something like 9:30 p.m. 

 

I have forgotten the purpose of even that question. Are you here to taper your drugs?

[unblocktheplanet]

Dear Alto, I’m sorry to be such a doofus. Can we please try again? I’m so frustrated & I do not mean to frustrate you, too.

 

Yes, I’m part of SA to taper & wean my psych drugs. Mirtazapine is gone. But I’m in a long, deep wave (70+ days) & I don’t yet have the confidence to start to taper Trazodone in the trough of this wave. I need to get my strength back. I’m 72. 

 

My strict lights-out is 930pm. I take Trazodone 50 mg, Alprazolam 1 mg at lights-out. Same timetable for Trazodone since 2003, same for Alprazolam since August 2019. Never varies. Plus Magnesium Citrate 1200 mg & Omega-3.

 

Mirtazapine linear-tapered & weaned June 2021-February 2022. Short dalliance with Vortioxetine 10 mg in December 2021 CT; Quetiapine 25 to 75 mg January to March 2022, quick taper; Ketamine 0.5mg/kg four infusions May 2022, no benefit. 

 

By ‘bad’, I mean symptomatic, both physical & mental. Full-time deeply depressed; anxiety nearly to panic; inner agitation; inability to make even the smallest decisions; forgetful; confused; constant worries; complete social withdrawal; total lack of appetite & thirst w much weight loss (54 lbs since August 2019)—can’t cook; dizzy, disoriented, weak; frequent night wakings 1-2-3am, no more sleep; fatigued to exhaustion; heart palpitations; tingling & numbness in back of right hand; left eyelid twitch. 

 

I immediately cannot handle content: music, video, this time even books & Internet reading. Everything seems like a trigger making me feel worse. Complete lack of energy & confidence, no motivation, interest. Demoralised. (There are more!) I really bottom out.

 

I’ve been in the ‘bad’ state for periods of 70 days, 40 days, & more than 70 days to the present after weaning Mirtazapine in February 2022. They always feel like they’ll never end, of course.

 

By ‘good’, I return to my normal. Able to live life, enjoy people & food, music, video & books. Keep it together. Feel satisfied & content. Be a good husband. Similarly, I think I’m back to me for good!

 

These periodic ‘bads’ & ‘goods’ are long & seem to be getting longer. 

 - are these months-long waves (and windows) experienced by others?

 - are these waves Mirtazapine WD 11 months out? or something else?

 - are these even waves & windows?

 - or…bipolar, rebound, or relapse depression?

 

Does this clarify at all? I would really appreciate any insights. Thank you!