News: Moncrieff, et al. find no basis for "serotonin deficiency" theory

[Erimus]

ADMIN NOTE The paper upon which all these news articles are commenting is 

Moncrieff, J., Cooper, R. E., Stockmann, T., Amendola, S., Hengartner, M. P., & Horowitz, M. A. (2022). The serotonin theory of depression: A systematic umbrella review of the evidence. Molecular Psychiatry. https://doi.org/10.1038/s41380-022-01661-0

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https://news.sky.com/story/antidepressants-called-into-question-as-researchers-find-no-convincing-evidence-depression-is-caused-by-chemical-imbalance-12655342
 

I read this on sky news this morning and was both delighted and shocked that the misinformation was finally being projected on a platform with a big viewership. 
 

Abstract:

 

“Many antidepressants might not be treating the condition, because they are being used to correct a cause of depression that doesn't actually exist, new research has suggested. 

 

A new review of existing studies concludes that the "chemical imbalance" theory of depression, in particular low levels of serotonin, does not stand up to scrutiny. Serotonin is a chemical transmitter that appears to play a role in governing mood and emotions.

Most antidepressants are selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs), and were originally said to work by correcting abnormally low serotonin levels.

 

However the umbrella study, carried out be researchers at University College London (UCL) and published in Molecular Psychiatry, suggests that depression is not likely caused by a chemical imbalance, and calls into question what antidepressants do.”

 

 

Edited September 14, 2022 by Altostrata
added admin note, retitled

[Erimus]

“Doctors have insisted antidepressants are effective and urged people not to stop taking their medication.”

Thats a very damning statement that could begin to expose the truths behind the whole ‘medicine for profit’ ideals that have been swirling around this community for the past 11 years. 
 

There’s going to be a lot of people in the UK who read this and start to question why they are taking antidepressants.

 

Like they say, there’s no money in healthy people. These medications keep you crawling back for relief from your ‘relapse’ symptoms, keeping these big companies in a tidy annual turnover.

[Terry4949]

55 minutes ago, Erimus said:

“Doctors have insisted antidepressants are effective and urged people not to stop taking their medication.”

Thats a very damning statement that could begin to expose the truths behind the whole ‘medicine for profit’ ideals that have been swirling around this community for the past 11 years. 
 

There’s going to be a lot of people in the UK who read this and start to question why they are taking antidepressants.

 

Like they say, there’s no money in healthy people. These medications keep you crawling back for relief from your ‘relapse’ symptoms, keeping these big companies in a tidy annual turnover.

I agree that’s the first thing I thought of this morning when I heard it on the news that now they are discrediting antidepressants and that the chemical imbalance like low serotonin is not the cause and there is actually no scientific evidence to back this up 

the thing is many people will still come out and say that they have been helped placebo affect maybe but there will as you say a lot of people questioning why they are on them 

but this could cause mayhem as we know many people say they are well on them and will choose to keep on them but if doctors now decide to start cutting back on people who say they feel well and use the poor reduction schedules it could turn very nasty as how many people are actually aware of the serious withdrawal effects that can and do occur doctors are not up to date with this 

but I’m glad it is now being more recognised to many people being handed them for the slightest things these days without the proper warnings 

[Faure]

Article in today’s Guardian on the same topic. These articles should refer readers to Surviving Anti Depressants so that worried people are well informed. I’m going to suggest to The Guardian they do so. 

[Erimus]

I just read the article on the Guardian. Wow! 
 

“Thousands of people suffer from side-effects of antidepressants, including the severe withdrawal effects that can occur when people try to stop them, yet prescription rates continue to rise. We believe this situation has been driven partly by the false belief that depression is due to a chemical imbalance. It is high time to inform the public that this belief is not grounded in science.”

 

The Royal College of Psychiatrists still seems adamant that antidepressants are good and safe. I don’t know what agenda they’re pushing and why but it’s strange that they are questioning scientific evidence.

 

Modern approaches to mental health are messed up. I have no doubt in my mind about that..

[jon1]

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/jul/20/scientists-question-widespread-use-of-antidepressants-after-survey-on-serotonin

 

Scientists have called into question the widespread use of antidepressants after a major review found “no clear evidence” that low serotonin levels are responsible for depression.

 

Prescriptions for antidepressants have risen dramatically since the 1990s, with one in six adults and 2% of teenagers in England now being prescribed them. Millions more people around the world regularly use antidepressants.

 

“Many people take antidepressants because they have been led to believe their depression has a biochemical cause, but this new research suggests this belief is not grounded in evidence,” said the study’s lead author, Joanna Moncrieff, a professor of psychiatry at University College London and consultant psychiatrist at North East London NHS foundation trust.

 

“It is always difficult to prove a negative, but I think we can safely say that after a vast amount of research conducted over several decades, there is no convincing evidence that depression is caused by serotonin abnormalities, particularly by lower levels or reduced activity of serotonin.

 

“Thousands of people suffer from side-effects of antidepressants, including the severe withdrawal effects that can occur when people try to stop them, yet prescription rates continue to rise. We believe this situation has been driven partly by the false belief that depression is due to a chemical imbalance. It is high time to inform the public that this belief is not grounded in science.”

 

The new review of existing studies found that depression is not likely to be caused by a chemical imbalance and said people should be made aware of other options for treating it.

 

However, other experts, including from the Royal College of Psychiatrists, questioned the findings and urged people not to stop taking their medication in light of the study, arguing that antidepressants remained effective.

 

In the new analysis, researchers said 85% to 90% of the public believed depression was caused by low serotonin or a chemical imbalance. 

 

Most antidepressants are selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs), originally said to work by correcting abnormally low serotonin levels.

 

The review, published in the journal Molecular Psychiatry, looked at studies examining serotonin and depression involving tens of thousands of people. One of the findings was that research comparing levels of serotonin and its breakdown products in the blood or brain fluids did not discover any difference between people diagnosed with depression and healthy people.

 

The authors also looked at studies where serotonin levels were artificially lowered in hundreds of people and concluded that lowering serotonin in this way did not produce depression in hundreds of healthy volunteers.

 

Other studies looked at the effects of stressful life events and found that the more stressful life events a person had experienced, the more likely they were to be depressed, showing the importance of external events.

 

According to the research, there is also evidence from other studies that antidepressants may actually induce low serotonin in the long term.

 

“Our view is that patients should not be told that depression is caused by low serotonin or by a chemical imbalance, and they should not be led to believe that antidepressants work by targeting these unproven abnormalities,” said Moncrieff.

 

“We do not understand what antidepressants are doing to the brain exactly, and giving people this sort of misinformation prevents them from making an informed decision about whether to take antidepressants or not.”

 

A spokesperson for the Royal College of Psychiatrists said: “Antidepressants are an effective, Nice-recommended treatment for depression that can also be prescribed for a range of physical and mental health conditions. We would not recommend for anyone to stop taking their antidepressants based on this review, and encourage anyone with concerns about their medication to contact their GP.”

 

Dr Michael Bloomfield, a consultant psychiatrist and principal clinical research fellow at University College London, who was not involved in the study, said: “Many of us know that taking paracetamol can be helpful for headaches, and I don’t think anyone believes that headaches are caused by not enough paracetamol in the brain. The same logic applies to depression and medicines used to treat depression.

 

“There is consistent evidence that antidepressant medicines can be helpful in the treatment of depression and can be life-saving.”

[Ariel]

See also: 

 

 

[Ariel]

See also:

 

 

[jon1]

There's a similar article in the Times (UK) today.

 

Unfortunately they've also run an opinion piece right next to it, saying that doctors 'don't give them out lightly'.

 

Which in my humble opinion, is absolute bollocks. How can 1 out of 6 people be on a drug if doctors aren't giving them out lightly? 🙄

[Mirtazapine20mg]

The Horowitz/Moncrieff-Duo are doing really good work. And this story is making quite a splash in the media. 

 

[Conner]

https://theconversation.com/amp/depression-is-probably-not-caused-by-a-chemical-imbalance-in-the-brain-new-study-186672

[Ariel]

See also:

 

 

[SouthernFreeze]

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/lifestyle/2022/07/new-study-finds-depression-is-unlikely-caused-by-a-chemical-imbalance-in-the-brain.html 

 

Scientists looked at it from every angle, even tried to induce depression, but no proof of depression caused by serotonin deficiency, which makes anti depressants either pointless or "harmful"

[Ariel]

See also: 

 

 

[Alex3]

This has been bubbling away for a while

 

Very curious as to how my next conversation goes with my Dr

[SouthernFreeze]

7 hours ago, Ariel said:

See also: 

 

 

Oh thanks, that's amazing!

[jon1]

Absolutely, hopefully the momentum will keep building.

[Faure]

I have just sent my letter to the person at The Guardian who wrote an article about this yesterday, urging him to use his voice to draw attention to ADWD. I wonder if I’ll ever hear anything back. 🤞

[Ariel]

Well done @Faure

 

[Alex3]

The main reason I ended up on these psychiatric drugs was an out-of-the-blue, isolated conversation by an observer who recommended, "I think you should see a Dr". The shock on my part that someone was willing to be that honest with me prompted and jolted an urging to reach out and whilst (as a placebo) you're led to believe that by being "vulnerable" and reaching out is going to relieve you from the dead end you become ensconsed in. This is before you've even started the 10 min questionnaire and the treatment/drugs itself. Little did we know it would lead us down a road to hell unimaginable

 

More and more people are being encouraged "to reach out" and ostensibly excellent, but in reality it is fuelling all these prescriptions. If people had any inclination what actually taking these drugs entailed then they wouldn't touch them with a barge pole

 

My final point is that are all these over-prescriptions going to get people to acknowledge the drugs themselves, but also the root causes within society that are leaving people helpless and despairing? Perhaps that will be some further change down the road with social change

 

Interesting times folks! Stay well and sane

[Faure]

Oh yes, root causes in society causing problems that many people just aren’t able to live with and most have no agency over. ‘Sedated’ discusses this in quite a lot of detail if you feel like reading it. @Alex3 

[miomio]

https://neurosciencenews.com/serotonin-depression-21074/

 

Its funny how some Articles state little evidence and others No evidence.

Maily Mainstream media still hold the door open for some evidence.

 

[arbor]

5 hours ago, Faure said:

I have just sent my letter to the person at The Guardian who wrote an article about this yesterday, urging him to use his voice to draw attention to ADWD. I wonder if I’ll ever hear anything back.

Thank you @Faure--You inspired me to do the same.  I sent my response through Marketing.  (For whatever that's worth)

[Ariel]

YES @arbor

woo-hoo!! 

Team SA for the win 

[Ariel]

@Faure @arbor @vincent

Y'all are my heroes, thank you for leading by example and inspiring me to action!

 

I've written a letter to Andrew Gregory, Health editor and reporter at The Guardian whose name appears on the byline of this article.

He's got a direct professional email address; if anyone needs it, PM me. 

He also has a twitter handle for those on twitter, in case anyone wants to tweet at him (or whatever it's called). 

 

Based on past articles, Gregory's "health editor" beat seems pretty darn broad (/superficial), covering just about anything and everything.

However, if enough of us write to tell him about SA and WD/ADWD/PWS/PAWS, maybe it'll pique his interest, at least enough to delegate further perhaps. 

Planting seeds, ripples in the water, all that. 

 

Thank you, dear peerless peers, I appreciate you <3

[vincent]

@andrewgregory has twitter, Instagram and Facebook accounts.

https://www.andrewgregory.com/

[FeralCatman]

I sent a couple of these articles as well as a link to the actual study to my psychiatrist today. Turns out it wasn't necessary as she already knew about it. Apparently it was a Hot topic at their meeting this morning. Seems this study and the attention it's getting really shook things up. Change is coming 😉✌️😺😺😺😺

[DrugfreeProf]

On a VERY mainstream site!

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/study-says-depression-not-caused-by-chemical-imbalance-raising-questions-about-antidepressants/ar-AAZQ0uq

 

 

[tsranga]

 

I found the professional view to this article pretty balanced - 

 

https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-reaction-to-a-review-paper-on-the-serotonin-theory-of-depression/

 

This is the original study - 

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-022-01661-0

 

 

[Ariel]

See also this paper from the Moncrieff-Horowitz team, where they hold psychiatry accountable for bad science, e.g. having perpetuated the chemical imbalance myth.

 

 

[Shep]

I just posted this about the Guardian's article from 1999:

 

The Guardian - They Said It Was Safe - Prozac trials and akathisia, an article from 1999

 

I wish they had brought this earlier research into their current conversation. Not only do the drugs not solve a problem, they cause akathisia that have led many people to suicide and that article even mentions violence to others. 

[Terry4949]

Just been watching a debate on the antidepressants theory that serotonin is not the cause of depression a question was asked was that even on a placebo average why do so many people on ads find relief allowing for the placebo effect even people who have tried several medication that they have had no response to find one that actually lifts them out of severe depression and has given them their lives back 

the theory of serotonin has been debunked that’s for sure but the consensus was that they should still be handed as the good out weighs the bad 

I must admit I was on a few antidepressants to start with but they never gave me total relief but then I went on venalaxafine that changed my world for the good it probably saved my life at the time but hitting tolerance was a different story was this a placebo affect after trying the others 

I think the majority of people in this group have found relief in the beginning many have said they only struggled when they started to withdraw and reinstate I know there are many members that have been harmed from just a few pills or a toxic reaction 

as much as I no there is no chemical Inbalance I still can’t understand why so many people are helped by them I have two female friends who are both on them both were in serious depression bouts both took a antidepressant both recovered remarkably got married had kids and still doing so well placebo possibly 

the conversation carried on with some expert claiming that antidepressants have helped far more than they have harm maybe he should come on some of these sites he make think different so I think they will still be handed out for everything 

The point they were making is even if there is no proof that they work on serotonin they work but they still don’t know how but one did say he thought Ssri were not as affected 

[ChessieCat]

7 hours ago, Terry4949 said:

I must admit I was on a few antidepressants to start with but they never gave me total relief but then I went on venalaxafine

 

Most ADs are SSRIs.  Venlafaxine is an SNRI.

 

7 hours ago, Terry4949 said:

I still can’t understand why so many people are helped by them

 

The drug numbs their emotions which provides relief. 

[tsranga]

Not the ally that I had envisioned in our fight - 

 

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/republicans-depression-study_n_62e153b2e4b03dbb991ff961

[FeralCatman]

@tsranga First I have to state that I have no politics any more. I agree and disagree with issues on both sides of this crazy fence that has been constructed between 2 halves of a nation. I am a centrist. Always have been always will be so at this point I really don't fit in anywhere. It's one of the many reasons I live in the middle of nowhere and keep to myself outside of this web site. That said, having an ally with a loud voice and a huge audience to get the word out is a useful ally regardless of politics. At least on this particular issue. 😉✌️😺😺😺😺

[Oaktree1]

 

The fight back from the psychiatric establishment has begun at least in Ireland.  This psychiatrist Prof Patricia Casey is representative of the psychiatric establishment here.   She is a professor of psychiatry, a 'Fellow' of various medical  institutions,  is regularly consulted by the mainstream media and writes an opinion column regularly in one of the Irish broadsheets - The Independent.  Unfortunately I had the misfortune to be treated by her in 1990's - I was never the same afterwards.

 

The paper has a paywall but there is enough there to get the gist of her position which is in the last sentence: -

 

'Creating unnecessary anxiety about antidepressants is not only dangerous, it is unethical.'

 

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/antidepressants-are-a-lifesaver-for-many-and-questioning-their-importance-helps-no-one-41873037.html?fbclid=IwAR239nKrc_FknlxZXd2ObSVA8zSnyD3XKbPUCNi-OolGAXzA3PKLkYuksFw 

 

This woman was at one stage a paid spokesperson for Lundbeck and the drug Citalopram.  There is a particularly sad history associated with this  A woman Leonie Fennell lost her son Shane through this same drug.   Her son was depressed at the loss of a recent relationship.  He was put on the drug by his GP.  Three weeks after having been put on it he killed himself, his erstwhile best friend and stabbed his ex girlfriend in behaviour that was apparently completely out of character.  There was an inquest and an open verdict was recorded after evidence was given by Dr David Healy on the link between Citalopram and violent behaviour. 

 

After the inquest the psychiatrist Patricia Casey showed up on the steps of the courthouse to represent Lundbeck.    The media were assembled.   She had had the neck to ask to speak as an 'amicus curiae' (a friend of the court) but basically it appears that she wanted to give evidence denying that the drug caused violent behaviour.   The coroner declined her request so she showed up after the inquest was over and gave her 'expert' opinion to the media that were standing around outside the courthouse.  She had never met the dead man or treated him but she told the assembled media that it was 'his mental illness' that had caused his homicidal acts not the drug.   She said this to the media having first gone over to Leonie Fennell his mother and shaken her hand.  Ms Fennell was naturally disgusted at Casey's behaviour and she stood up to this psychiatrist fiercely and the College of Psychiatrists for years and attempted for years to publicise the link between SSRI's and violent behaviour.  She has asserted for years that her son's behaviour was completely out of character for him.  I attach her bio below.    Casey threatened her with legal action when she spoke about Casey's behaviour at the inquest (Casey's husband was a senior counsel (in other words very rich lawyer); but Leonie stood up to her stating that 'Patricia Casey can send me as many solicitor's letters as she wants - my son is dead'.  

 

I don't think unfortunately that Leonie Fennell made any impact in this country sadly as it's too wedded to the pharma narrative and there is the unfortunate fact that he killed another person and seriously injured another.  People I would imagine would tend to think 'well she is going to say that she is his mother and mothers defend their children regardless'. Perhaps if he had just killed himself she might have made more impact but it is doubtful.  People don't question the mainstream narrative.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/anti-depressants-to-blame-for-death-mother-says-1.652622

 

https://about.me/leonie.fenne

 

Patricia Casey's views will be listened to unfortunately.