1WishToHeal: damaged astrocytes by paroxetine causing symptoms

July 21, 2022

damaged astrocytes by paroxetine causing those symptoms, need some insights and discussion

Hello people,

I came to some insights that i want to discuss.

I hope this thread doesn't gets to be deleted. I know here is everything called withdrawal and you will heal (i don't blame that) I just want to dive deeper into the topic. Because it's not as simple as 'withdrawal' there is an underlying pathology.

I took Paroxetine for <year but i'm severe disabled by the reinstatement. I'm left with severe crippling symptoms.

- i can't barely walk from the neuropathy (burning/stinging/biting/freezing lower legs, feet --> got very worse when walking or standing

- heavy pains (like fibro) 8-10 level
- heavy nerve pains all over 8-10 level

- sometimes feel poured over with gasoline and lit on fire

- housebound / bedridden 70% / 30%

- can't stand cold/wind/breeze, it feels like 'pain' on the skin

- no quality of life left, it's only pain and suffering, i can't even vacuum my house and have trouble preparing food to eat. Luckily my family helps me

- obsessive suicidal thoughts chemically induced i couldn't relative them, it was very hard to not give in but finally it dissapeared after 14 months, Thank God.

So mentally i'm okay now but i'm left with a disabled body. (but now i understand why the manufacturer had to pay 8billion in lawsuits for suicides)

- I feel completely toxic with a burning body when i wake up every morning and stays throughout the day, like there is flowing acid trough my veins. Like many people describe on this website caused by their antidepressant and i have no quality of life left, like many on this website.

- lost my job, social contacts, my marriage, hobby's etc. over time because i can't do anything.

Of course i have doubted about 'somatic symptoms' caused by anxiety etc. in the past

But i have no doubt that it's not a mental health problem, impossible. I also did a pharmacogenetic test that stated my body can't properly metabolise psych drugs and pain meds. (later more about that).

+ the biggest pharmaceutical lawsuit in the US history was against the manufacturer GSK because of the drug Paroxetine, they paid 8 billion$ in fines (biggest fine ever) for fraudulently marketing this drug, withholding safety data and manipulating safety tests. This drug has made many many victims and i found them all around the web and a lot are not even alive anymore. Many people are completely damaged and crippled like me. Young and old. Many took their own lives because of the suffering. Simple google searches will acknowledge this.

Mental health problems can cause a variety of heavy symptoms but this suffering, severity and strange behaviour of these symptoms is indescribable and unbearable as many on this website will acknowledge. Impossible.

So now my story:
I'm 20 months out and my walking only got worse over the months.

My neuropathy is the most disabling problem so i was convinced i had Small Fiber Neuropathy because of the biting/stinging/burning/freezing/heavy pains caused by Paroxetine. I did the tests but they where negative
- EMG

- Small Fiber Skin biopsy

I couldn't believe it because i feel so damaged and everything 'physically' looks perfectly fine. (test-wise)

Both where ok...

So i researched further and further and stumbled upon a scientific article at the scientific and legit NCBI database with the title:

'Antidepressants, sertraline and paroxetine, increase calcium influx and induce mitochondrial damage-mediated apoptosis of astrocytes'

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5777788/?fbclid=IwAR1avrYNU1ESE86V9_UZHCHSMl4C8C7LRFwqz894GhWXoK_9Ni71avGkr2k

It's a difficult read for a simple person, but doctors don't have the time or don't want to read into things i bring with me so i researched myself.

The first alinea of the article states:

After screening 11 different antidepressants, we found that sertraline and paroxetine induced astrocyte apoptosis.

We also revealed that sertraline and paroxetine induced mitochondrial damage, ROS generation (reactive oxygen species), and astrocyte apoptosis with elevation of cleaved-caspase 3 and cleaved-PARP levels. Ultimately, we validated these mechanisms in primary cultured astrocytes and neuron cells and obtained consistent results. These results suggest that sertraline and paroxetine cause astrocyte dysfunction, and this impairment may be involved in the pathogenesis of neurodegenerative diseases.

So what the heck are astrocytes then?

ASTROCYTES: The most common cell type in the brain is a special type known as the astrocyte. These star-shaped cells play an important role in the survival of nerve tissue as they are among the few nerve cells that can proliferate.

Cell-to-cell communication is achieved through neurotransmitters, and the function of neurotransmitters is highly dependent on the proper functioning of astrocytes

ASTROCYTE APOPTOSIS: The process of cell death

We found that sertraline and paroxetine, two SSRIs, reduced CTX TNA2 astrocyte viability but not the other nine commonly used antidepressants, which include three SSRIs, one SNRI, two TCAs, one TeCA, one MAOI, and one SARI. Sertraline and paroxetine initiated a complex response of astrocyte apoptosis. It is shown that calcium overload induced mitochondrial dysfunction, which eventually leads to the activation of an intrinsic apoptotic pathway Consistent results of sertraline- and paroxetine-induced cell death and mitochondrial dysfunction were also observed in primary astrocytes.

In addition, our results showed that sertraline and paroxetine caused mitochondrial hyperpolarization at 3 h. Two peaks respectively represent populations of hyperpolarization and hypopolarization of the MMP. This phenomenon indicated that astrocyte mitochondria were damaged after mitochondrial hyperpolarization, and this may possibly due to calcium overload.

other source:

Healthy astrocytes have neuroprotective properties, but in order to function, these cells must be able to properly produce and process the neurotransmitter glutamate. But when cells have a toxic amount of glutamate, which kills neural cells, it leads to a condition called excitotoxicity.
In excitotoxicity, nerve cells suffer damage or death when the levels of otherwise necessary and safe neurotransmitters such as glutamate, which activate neurons, over-stimulate receptors. This can burn the connected cells and damage the brain.

So if i understand the article well, this drug caused a major calcium wave in my system (i did a re-instatement too, that completely crippled me). This calcium rise caused the trouble. An intracellular calcium rise is thought to play a primary role in initiating programmed cel death of neurons and astrocytes.

SO WHAT IS CAUSING MY PROBLEM THEN...

I always thought i had severe neuropathy, it must be tissue damage because i can't walk and i'm so disabled by it. But the tests didn't acknowledge it.

Now this article makes clear that simply said: The drug caused a calcium wave that damaged Astrocytes in the brain, the star formed cells that are necessary for the proper working of my neurotransmitters. The astrocyte removes the neurotransmitter glutamate from the synapse through high-affinity surface transporters, So without these proper working astrocytes my neurotransmitters don't do what they have to do. So my neuropathy, pain etc is most likely caused by a neurotransmitter problem.

Same with other symptoms that people have like insomnia, depression, anxiety it's all caused by neurotransmitter disruption. (In this case i can only say this for Paroxetine and Sertraline, because the study checked all 11 and it only showed these mechanisms in these 2 AD's the rest works different).

The neuropathy is so hellish, but it's no tissue neuropathy but brain (damage) neuropathy... that explains a lot, problem is, i can't do anything with it.

I also can't get a proper diagnosis... They can't measure neurotransmitters, astrocytes etc. So the only thing i hear from specialists is 'you are fine Mr no neuropathy'

I don't know a doctor that wants to read or is specialised in this. Basic neurologists wont acknowledge this. What i don't understand because these NCBI articles are written 'for doctors by doctors'...

But yes i can imagine it's difficult for them if they can't find anything wrong to believe such story, especially 'when this person was on an antidepressant' and a bit anxious in the past. So that makes it a lonely road, suffering unacceptably every single second of the day without help or acknowledgement. Just biting trough the indescribable pains. My pain levels are always 8-10.

another sourch:

Abnormal neuronal calcium (Ca²⁺) homeostasis has been implicated in numerous diseases of the nervous system. The pathogenesis of two increasingly common disorders of the peripheral nervous system, namely neuropathic pain and diabetic polyneuropathy, has been associated with aberrant Ca²⁺ channel expression and function.

Neuropathic pain has a huge impact on quality of life and aberrant Ca²⁺ channel physiology and expression has been implicated in a number of pain states.

If i look on google 'can astrocytes heal':

Astrocytes are able to regenerate in response to CNS injury, and glial regeneration and repair are essential for long-term homeostasis and for complete recovery of intgerated functions.

So yeah, sounds promising but i'm not that convinced if i see my physical state and neuropathy intensity. It's also a simple 'google' search and not based on (neuro)toxictity.

It's also a problem no doctor wants to read into this subject at all.

Time will tell.

Just interested to discuss this with more people instead of ruminating about it on my own.

Tips, Ideas, insights, all welcome.

Best wishes.

*I also have to state that i did a pharmacogenetic test where they test how your genes respond on pharmaceutical drugs DNA-testing.

Outcome was, CYP2D6 gene is not properly metabolising, this gene is the most important gene to metabolise these drugs (SSRI, antipsychotics, pain meds) they control that the body can get rid of it. So that didn't happen in my case and i reached toxic levels i guess...

Also GSTM1 gene is 'Poor Metabolising NULL/NULL' This gene is 'glutathion S-transferase (GST) which play a role in the detoxification of foreign body-substances'.

i wish i could find a doctor educated in this subject....

I wish they read into it and connected the dots, so they give me at least a diagnosis for disability pay etc. It's not always as easy as 'not visible, so it's not'

Edited October 14, 2022 by ChessieCat
add new username/added topic title before shortening

July 21, 2022

I forgot to mention that it seems like specialists, don't believe that pharmaceutical drugs can cause these injuries. while the web is full of lawsuits, scientific papers that say it can. Always when i start talking about these drug at a specialist appointment it's gaslighted or waved away. Except by my home doctor, she listens but she doesn't know what to do with it either (i understand) because there is no solution.

I guess i wouldn't believe it myself either what a havoc a drug can create if i didn't live it myself.

I just wish there was a specialist that read into it and can diagnose me or explain what happened. Or give a prognosis.

Now i don't know anything. Will i get worse over time? Will i heal? Will i stay like this suffering the rest of my life?

It's not right that there's so much proof out there and almost nobody wants to listen if you don't fit the standard picture. Like i see by almost everyone with drug injuries. Our healthcare is not build for these kind of chemical, toxicological problems. It's all based on cancer, broken bones, heart problems, infections etc.

July 22, 2022

Welcome, @1WishToHeal

On 7/21/2022 at 6:14 AM, 1WishToHeal said:

I took Paroxetine for <year but i'm severe disabled by the reinstatement. I'm left with severe crippling symptoms.

I'm sorry you were effected so severely by paroxetine. You're right that the medical establishment has remained ignorant of the toxic effects of these drugs even though the scientific literature shows these drugs are very problematic.

Is paroxetine the only psychiatric drug you've taken? Are you taking any supplements or drugs to deal with your symptoms?

Please let us know more about your drug history by adding a signature. Here's how:

How to Summarize Your Drug History in Your Signature

A direct link to your signature is here:

Account Settings – Create or Edit a signature

As we learn more about your drug history and any supplements you are currently taking, we'll be able to give you targeted advice for dealing with your symptoms.

July 22, 2022

5 hours ago, Shep said:

As we learn more about your drug history and any supplements you are currently taking, we'll be able to give you targeted advice for dealing with your symptoms.

Oke Shep I updated my drug history etc.

I hope to find people with insights or ideas over time. Also i would like to find people that healed from severe physical symptoms.

But I guess there are not much. Only some succes stories, but it looks like most people heal from mental side effects except for the crippling physical problems. Also i would like to know what doctor is specialised in these kind of problems of the brain, neurotransmitters, astrocytes, disruption etc. Basic neurologists can't help.

I would be happy already if i could get some little quality of life back in the future like 50% and some simple tasks like grocery shopping.

But time will tell..

Thanks for approving me.

I will check sometimes if i have messages on my page.

July 23, 2022

@1WishToHeal Thanks for adding a signature.

Have you been on any another medications, including antibiotics? Some of the worst physical symptoms come from psychiatric drugs taken with fluoroquinolone antibiotics, which can cause neuropathy even if you're not on psych drugs. Here is a list of fluoroquinolone antibiotics so you can check to see if you've been exposed to one of these - List of Common Fluroquinolone Antiobiotics.

July 24, 2022

10 hours ago, Shep said:

@1WishToHeal Thanks for adding a signature.

Have you been on any another medications, including antibiotics? Some of the worst physical symptoms come from psychiatric drugs taken with fluoroquinolone antibiotics, which can cause neuropathy even if you're not on psych drugs. Here is a list of fluoroquinolone antibiotics so you can check to see if you've been exposed to one of these - List of Common Fluroquinolone Antiobiotics.

Ey Shep, no i've not used anything except for the antidepressant.

I didn't take much medication in my life

July 24, 2022

Mitochondrial Hyperpolarization: An early event of T-cell activation and death.

Apoptosis meaning: A type of cell death which a series of molecular steps in a cell lead to it's death.

Working model related to sertraline-and paroxetine-induced astrocyte apoptosis. Treatments with sertraline and paroxetine led to induction of intracellular calcium, mitochondrial hyperpolarization followed by mitochondrial damage, and reactive oxygen species (ROS) generation. Ultimately, caspase-3 and poly(ADP-ribose) polymerase (PARP) proteins were activated, and apoptosis occurred.

sourch:

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Working-model-related-to-sertraline-and-paroxetine-induced-astrocyte-apoptosis_fig5_321839587

July 24, 2022

On 7/21/2022 at 5:14 AM, 1WishToHeal said:

Hello people,

I came to some insights that i want to discuss.

I hope this thread doesn't gets to be deleted. I know here is everything called withdrawal and you will heal (i don't blame that) I just want to dive deeper into the topic. Because it's not as simple as 'withdrawal' there is an underlying pathology.

I took Paroxetine for <year but i'm severe disabled by the reinstatement. I'm left with severe crippling symptoms.

- i can't barely walk from the neuropathy (burning/stinging/biting/freezing lower legs, feet --> got very worse when walking or standing

- heavy pains (like fibro) 8-10 level
- heavy nerve pains all over 8-10 level

- sometimes feel poured over with gasoline and lit on fire

- housebound / bedridden 70% / 30%

- can't stand cold/wind/breeze, it feels like 'pain' on the skin

- no quality of life left, it's only pain and suffering, i can't even vacuum my house and have trouble preparing food to eat. Luckily my family helps me

- obsessive suicidal thoughts chemically induced i couldn't relative them, it was very hard to not give in but finally it dissapeared after 14 months, Thank God.

So mentally i'm okay now but i'm left with a disabled body. (but now i understand why the manufacturer had to pay 8billion in lawsuits for suicides)

- I feel completely toxic with a burning body when i wake up every morning and stays throughout the day, like there is flowing acid trough my veins. Like many people describe on this website caused by their antidepressant and i have no quality of life left, like many on this website.

- lost my job, social contacts, my marriage, hobby's etc. over time because i can't do anything.

Of course i have doubted about 'somatic symptoms' caused by anxiety etc. in the past

But i have no doubt that it's not a mental health problem, impossible. I also did a pharmacogenetic test that stated my body can't properly metabolise psych drugs and pain meds. (later more about that).

+ the biggest pharmaceutical lawsuit in the US history was against the manufacturer GSK because of the drug Paroxetine, they paid 8 billion$ in fines (biggest fine ever) for fraudulently marketing this drug, withholding safety data and manipulating safety tests. This drug has made many many victims and i found them all around the web and a lot are not even alive anymore. Many people are completely damaged and crippled like me. Young and old. Many took their own lives because of the suffering. Simple google searches will acknowledge this.

Mental health problems can cause a variety of heavy symptoms but this suffering, severity and strange behaviour of these symptoms is indescribable and unbearable as many on this website will acknowledge. Impossible.

So now my story:
I'm 20 months out and my walking only got worse over the months.

My neuropathy is the most disabling problem so i was convinced i had Small Fiber Neuropathy because of the biting/stinging/burning/freezing/heavy pains caused by Paroxetine. I did the tests but they where negative
- EMG

- Small Fiber Skin biopsy

I couldn't believe it because i feel so damaged and everything 'physically' looks perfectly fine. (test-wise)

Both where ok...

So i researched further and further and stumbled upon a scientific article at the scientific and legit NCBI database with the title:

'Antidepressants, sertraline and paroxetine, increase calcium influx and induce mitochondrial damage-mediated apoptosis of astrocytes'

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5777788/?fbclid=IwAR1avrYNU1ESE86V9_UZHCHSMl4C8C7LRFwqz894GhWXoK_9Ni71avGkr2k

It's a difficult read for a simple person, but doctors don't have the time or don't want to read into things i bring with me so i researched myself.

The first alinea of the article states:

After screening 11 different antidepressants, we found that sertraline and paroxetine induced astrocyte apoptosis.

We also revealed that sertraline and paroxetine induced mitochondrial damage, ROS generation (reactive oxygen species), and astrocyte apoptosis with elevation of cleaved-caspase 3 and cleaved-PARP levels. Ultimately, we validated these mechanisms in primary cultured astrocytes and neuron cells and obtained consistent results. These results suggest that sertraline and paroxetine cause astrocyte dysfunction, and this impairment may be involved in the pathogenesis of neurodegenerative diseases.

So what the heck are astrocytes then?

ASTROCYTES: The most common cell type in the brain is a special type known as the astrocyte. These star-shaped cells play an important role in the survival of nerve tissue as they are among the few nerve cells that can proliferate.

Cell-to-cell communication is achieved through neurotransmitters, and the function of neurotransmitters is highly dependent on the proper functioning of astrocytes

ASTROCYTE APOPTOSIS: The process of cell death

We found that sertraline and paroxetine, two SSRIs, reduced CTX TNA2 astrocyte viability but not the other nine commonly used antidepressants, which include three SSRIs, one SNRI, two TCAs, one TeCA, one MAOI, and one SARI. Sertraline and paroxetine initiated a complex response of astrocyte apoptosis. It is shown that calcium overload induced mitochondrial dysfunction, which eventually leads to the activation of an intrinsic apoptotic pathway Consistent results of sertraline- and paroxetine-induced cell death and mitochondrial dysfunction were also observed in primary astrocytes.

In addition, our results showed that sertraline and paroxetine caused mitochondrial hyperpolarization at 3 h. Two peaks respectively represent populations of hyperpolarization and hypopolarization of the MMP. This phenomenon indicated that astrocyte mitochondria were damaged after mitochondrial hyperpolarization, and this may possibly due to calcium overload.

other source:

Healthy astrocytes have neuroprotective properties, but in order to function, these cells must be able to properly produce and process the neurotransmitter glutamate. But when cells have a toxic amount of glutamate, which kills neural cells, it leads to a condition called excitotoxicity.
In excitotoxicity, nerve cells suffer damage or death when the levels of otherwise necessary and safe neurotransmitters such as glutamate, which activate neurons, over-stimulate receptors. This can burn the connected cells and damage the brain.

So if i understand the article well, this drug caused a major calcium wave in my system (i did a re-instatement too, that completely crippled me). This calcium rise caused the trouble. An intracellular calcium rise is thought to play a primary role in initiating programmed cel death of neurons and astrocytes.

SO WHAT IS CAUSING MY PROBLEM THEN...

I always thought i had severe neuropathy, it must be tissue damage because i can't walk and i'm so disabled by it. But the tests didn't acknowledge it.

Now this article makes clear that simply said: The drug caused a calcium wave that damaged Astrocytes in the brain, the star formed cells that are necessary for the proper working of my neurotransmitters. The astrocyte removes the neurotransmitter glutamate from the synapse through high-affinity surface transporters, So without these proper working astrocytes my neurotransmitters don't do what they have to do. So my neuropathy, pain etc is most likely caused by a neurotransmitter problem.

Same with other symptoms that people have like insomnia, depression, anxiety it's all caused by neurotransmitter disruption. (In this case i can only say this for Paroxetine and Sertraline, because the study checked all 11 and it only showed these mechanisms in these 2 AD's the rest works different).

The neuropathy is so hellish, but it's no tissue neuropathy but brain (damage) neuropathy... that explains a lot, problem is, i can't do anything with it.

I also can't get a proper diagnosis... They can't measure neurotransmitters, astrocytes etc. So the only thing i hear from specialists is 'you are fine Mr no neuropathy'

I don't know a doctor that wants to read or is specialised in this. Basic neurologists wont acknowledge this. What i don't understand because these NCBI articles are written 'for doctors by doctors'...

But yes i can imagine it's difficult for them if they can't find anything wrong to believe such story, especially 'when this person was on an antidepressant' and a bit anxious in the past. So that makes it a lonely road, suffering unacceptably every single second of the day without help or acknowledgement. Just biting trough the indescribable pains. My pain levels are always 8-10.

another sourch:

Abnormal neuronal calcium (Ca²⁺) homeostasis has been implicated in numerous diseases of the nervous system. The pathogenesis of two increasingly common disorders of the peripheral nervous system, namely neuropathic pain and diabetic polyneuropathy, has been associated with aberrant Ca²⁺ channel expression and function.

Neuropathic pain has a huge impact on quality of life and aberrant Ca²⁺ channel physiology and expression has been implicated in a number of pain states.

If i look on google 'can astrocytes heal':

Astrocytes are able to regenerate in response to CNS injury, and glial regeneration and repair are essential for long-term homeostasis and for complete recovery of intgerated functions.

So yeah, sounds promising but i'm not that convinced if i see my physical state and neuropathy intensity. It's also a simple 'google' search and not based on (neuro)toxictity.

It's also a problem no doctor wants to read into this subject at all.

Time will tell.

Just interested to discuss this with more people instead of ruminating about it on my own.

Tips, Ideas, insights, all welcome.

Best wishes.

*I also have to state that i did a pharmacogenetic test where they test how your genes respond on pharmaceutical drugs DNA-testing.

Outcome was, CYP2D6 gene is not properly metabolising, this gene is the most important gene to metabolise these drugs (SSRI, antipsychotics, pain meds) they control that the body can get rid of it. So that didn't happen in my case and i reached toxic levels i guess...

Also GSTM1 gene is 'Poor Metabolising NULL/NULL' This gene is 'glutathion S-transferase (GST) which play a role in the detoxification of foreign body-substances'.

i wish i could find a doctor educated in this subject....

I wish they read into it and connected the dots, so they give me at least a diagnosis for disability pay etc. It's not always as easy as 'not visible, so it's not'

This is great information. I am very sorry about the neuropathy you experience. I can see how debilitating it can be. Im glad to see you are doing research trying to help yourself. It certainly helped me. I am experiencing intermittent hip and leg pain that doesn’t make sense as I am tapering off AD. I am No on sertraline or paroxetine but AD and WD affects our nervous system which is pretty much all our body functions so I’m think this neuropathy I am experiencing is because of WD. Im reading my pharmaceutical genetic test and I am able to understand more thanks to the information you shared. Thank you for sharing this. I hope the pain gets better and that you find more peace in all areas of struggles.

July 24, 2022

7 hours ago, 1WishToHeal said:

Ey Shep, no i've not used anything except for the antidepressant.

I didn't take much medication in my life

This is good news, 1Wish, although a cold turkey off a drug as potent as paroxetine can definitely cause a lot of hurt all by itself.

We don't recommend a lot of supplements, as many members report their nervous systems are simply too fragile to handle them. However, magnesium and fish oil tend to be calming to the nervous system and many people report they do help. Please only add in one supplement at a time and at a small dose to see if your nervous system can tolerate it. For more, please see:

King of supplements: Omega-3 fatty acids (fish oil)

Magnesium, nature's calcium channel blocker

I see in your signature you're already taking magnesium, which is good during withdrawal and recovery. You may want to add in a bit of fish oil to see if that also helps.

Here is some information on handling pain during withdrawal:

Body pain

Non-drug techniques to ease chronic pain

July 24, 2022

@1WishToHeal Feel free to add your research to the Journals and scientific sources section of the website. This post shows the guidelines for posting there - Before you start a topic in Journals.....

August 6, 2022

On 7/24/2022 at 5:24 PM, DazzlingCold said:

This is great information. I am very sorry about the neuropathy you experience. I can see how debilitating it can be. Im glad to see you are doing research trying to help yourself. It certainly helped me. I am experiencing intermittent hip and leg pain that doesn’t make sense as I am tapering off AD. I am No on sertraline or paroxetine but AD and WD affects our nervous system which is pretty much all our body functions so I’m think this neuropathy I am experiencing is because of WD. Im reading my pharmaceutical genetic test and I am able to understand more thanks to the information you shared. Thank you for sharing this. I hope the pain gets better and that you find more peace in all areas of struggles.

Thank you for your message DazzlingCold. I wrote an Essay lately about my gene testing, CYP2D6 and how this affected me. (And many other people)

I will recommend every one to do a pharmaco genetic test to check their genes and especially CYP2D6, CYP2C19 and GSTM1 enzymes they're responsible for metabolism of antidepressants, antipsychotics and pain meds.

If i knew this before i could've been saved.

I took Paroxetin (Paxil) the strongest CYP2D6 inhibitor on the market while my CYP2D6 is already intermediate metabolising (slow). So this + The paxil inhibiting the CYP2D6 gene caused my plasma levels to go up sky high because it was not metabolised and literally poisoned my body and nervous system and left me severe disabled with excruciating 9.5/10 pains all day. for almost 2 years now.

It's called Excitotoxicity, nerve cells suffer damage or death when the levels of otherwise necessary and safe neurotransmitters such as glutamate, become pathologically high resulting in excessive stimulation of receptors.

So Glutamate is the culprit in the end that damaged the CNS.

I will drop the Essay i wrote to show doctors and medical specialists that i will see in the future on this page later.

I recently sent it to a molecular genetic resourcher/SSRI resourcher for validation of my story.

I hope people will learn more about genes regarding to SSRI/psych meds instead of all blaming to 'just' an adverse reaction or withdrawal. There's more.

I don't deny withdrawal i was in it myself severely. But the underlying story or rootcause of the most adverse reactions is in the gene profile. People don't know.

But i read you did a gene test already yourself good to hear!

Thanks for reading and best wishes for you to in your journey.

May God give us all strength.

August 8, 2022

On 8/6/2022 at 12:38 PM, 1WishToHeal said:

Thank you for your message DazzlingCold. I wrote an Essay lately about my gene testing, CYP2D6 and how this affected me. (And many other people)

I will recommend every one to do a pharmaco genetic test to check their genes and especially CYP2D6, CYP2C19 and GSTM1 enzymes they're responsible for metabolism of antidepressants, antipsychotics and pain meds.

If i knew this before i could've been saved.

I took Paroxetin (Paxil) the strongest CYP2D6 inhibitor on the market while my CYP2D6 is already intermediate metabolising (slow). So this + The paxil inhibiting the CYP2D6 gene caused my plasma levels to go up sky high because it was not metabolised and literally poisoned my body and nervous system and left me severe disabled with excruciating 9.5/10 pains all day. for almost 2 years now.

It's called Excitotoxicity, nerve cells suffer damage or death when the levels of otherwise necessary and safe neurotransmitters such as glutamate, become pathologically high resulting in excessive stimulation of receptors.

So Glutamate is the culprit in the end that damaged the CNS.

I will drop the Essay i wrote to show doctors and medical specialists that i will see in the future on this page later.

I recently sent it to a molecular genetic resourcher/SSRI resourcher for validation of my story.

I hope people will learn more about genes regarding to SSRI/psych meds instead of all blaming to 'just' an adverse reaction or withdrawal. There's more.

I don't deny withdrawal i was in it myself severely. But the underlying story or rootcause of the most adverse reactions is in the gene profile. People don't know.

But i read you did a gene test already yourself good to hear!

Thanks for reading and best wishes for you to in your journey.

May God give us all strength.

Thank you! Im looking forward to reading the essay.
My CP2D6 is also intermediate so I suspect toxicity as well. I now understand why lost of meds didn’t work much and why the side effects were often not worth the slight help from meds.
Sending healing vibes to you and to all.

May God give us all strength 🙏🏼

August 19, 2022

The pain and disability that 9 months of Paroxetin use 10mg has caused is unimaginable for 20 months straight now. Can't barely function, walk, make food, or survive.

pain intensity full body 15 out of 10, can't walk etc. extreme torturous neuropathy, electric buzzing CNS.

It's definitely neurotoxicity / excytotoxicity caused by a reinstatement of 6 weeks. (2,5mg - 5mg, - 10mg)

Please never do a reinstatement it's dangerous and can cause a disabling neurotoxic reaction that some will deny, but there are enough examples. It's nervous system damage and NOT withdrawal.

I lost everything i had in life to this greedy Pharma company GlaxoShitKline. Job, house, wife, money, friends, family respect, everything.

I don't know if i will make it out alive, but i hope to put some more 'genetic' answers and info in future.

August 28, 2022

PHYSICAL PAIN PAIN + MORE PHYSICAL EXRUCIATING PAIN

9 months Paroxetine + adverse reinstatement (20 months ago)

- Feel completely toxic like green sizzling burning acid is running trough my veins
- Burning skin
- Can't walk anymore, 1 minute maximum - neuropathy legs - frkn wheelchair, but always unbearable legs.
- Extreme (burning) nerve pain between 8-20 out of 10
- Extreme (burning) traveling pains between 8-20 out of 10
- Exhaustion
- Buzzing/vibrating nervous system like i'm with my fingers in an electric socket.
- No concentration

I'm house and bedbound for almost 2 years. It's not withdrawal.

More people ?? Or am i such a rare case...

It looks like most people have mental struggles, and some physical.

But not completely crippled without mental symptoms like me.

I'm asking myself everyday wtf happened to me, and why i'm such a strange case..

It's like winning the sufferlottery

And no i had no health struggles before. I'm young, i could run 10km before this drug (prescribed for workstress). Afterwards crippled.

August 29, 2022

I can relate to this! My pych put me on a revolving door of low dose antidepressants - I wasn't on any more than a few days kept having bad reactions...then I tried mirtazapine - total 10 days including taper starting after 5 days. I've had horrible leg aches and issues ever since. doctors are sooo negligent! They need to advise patients of potential harm. Mine did not do this at all and denied anything I said when I complained of side effects. So frustrating and harmful.. Im sorry you are experiencing this. And fyi - my drugs were over a year ago and still having issues, although the emotional stuff early on was far more intense.

September 17, 2022

On 7/21/2022 at 12:14 PM, 1WishToHeal said:

Hello people,

I came to some insights that i want to discuss.

I hope this thread doesn't gets to be deleted. I know here is everything called withdrawal and you will heal (i don't blame that) I just want to dive deeper into the topic. Because it's not as simple as 'withdrawal' there is an underlying pathology.

I took Paroxetine for <year but i'm severe disabled by the reinstatement. I'm left with severe crippling symptoms.

- i can't barely walk from the neuropathy (burning/stinging/biting/freezing lower legs, feet --> got very worse when walking or standing

- heavy pains (like fibro) 8-10 level
- heavy nerve pains all over 8-10 level

- sometimes feel poured over with gasoline and lit on fire

- housebound / bedridden 70% / 30%

- can't stand cold/wind/breeze, it feels like 'pain' on the skin

- no quality of life left, it's only pain and suffering, i can't even vacuum my house and have trouble preparing food to eat. Luckily my family helps me

- obsessive suicidal thoughts chemically induced i couldn't relative them, it was very hard to not give in but finally it dissapeared after 14 months, Thank God.

So mentally i'm okay now but i'm left with a disabled body. (but now i understand why the manufacturer had to pay 8billion in lawsuits for suicides)

- I feel completely toxic with a burning body when i wake up every morning and stays throughout the day, like there is flowing acid trough my veins. Like many people describe on this website caused by their antidepressant and i have no quality of life left, like many on this website.

- lost my job, social contacts, my marriage, hobby's etc. over time because i can't do anything.

Of course i have doubted about 'somatic symptoms' caused by anxiety etc. in the past

But i have no doubt that it's not a mental health problem, impossible. I also did a pharmacogenetic test that stated my body can't properly metabolise psych drugs and pain meds. (later more about that).

+ the biggest pharmaceutical lawsuit in the US history was against the manufacturer GSK because of the drug Paroxetine, they paid 8 billion$ in fines (biggest fine ever) for fraudulently marketing this drug, withholding safety data and manipulating safety tests. This drug has made many many victims and i found them all around the web and a lot are not even alive anymore. Many people are completely damaged and crippled like me. Young and old. Many took their own lives because of the suffering. Simple google searches will acknowledge this.

Mental health problems can cause a variety of heavy symptoms but this suffering, severity and strange behaviour of these symptoms is indescribable and unbearable as many on this website will acknowledge. Impossible.

So now my story:
I'm 20 months out and my walking only got worse over the months.

My neuropathy is the most disabling problem so i was convinced i had Small Fiber Neuropathy because of the biting/stinging/burning/freezing/heavy pains caused by Paroxetine. I did the tests but they where negative
- EMG

- Small Fiber Skin biopsy

I couldn't believe it because i feel so damaged and everything 'physically' looks perfectly fine. (test-wise)

Both where ok...

So i researched further and further and stumbled upon a scientific article at the scientific and legit NCBI database with the title:

'Antidepressants, sertraline and paroxetine, increase calcium influx and induce mitochondrial damage-mediated apoptosis of astrocytes'

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5777788/?fbclid=IwAR1avrYNU1ESE86V9_UZHCHSMl4C8C7LRFwqz894GhWXoK_9Ni71avGkr2k

It's a difficult read for a simple person, but doctors don't have the time or don't want to read into things i bring with me so i researched myself.

The first alinea of the article states:

After screening 11 different antidepressants, we found that sertraline and paroxetine induced astrocyte apoptosis.

We also revealed that sertraline and paroxetine induced mitochondrial damage, ROS generation (reactive oxygen species), and astrocyte apoptosis with elevation of cleaved-caspase 3 and cleaved-PARP levels. Ultimately, we validated these mechanisms in primary cultured astrocytes and neuron cells and obtained consistent results. These results suggest that sertraline and paroxetine cause astrocyte dysfunction, and this impairment may be involved in the pathogenesis of neurodegenerative diseases.

So what the heck are astrocytes then?

ASTROCYTES: The most common cell type in the brain is a special type known as the astrocyte. These star-shaped cells play an important role in the survival of nerve tissue as they are among the few nerve cells that can proliferate.

Cell-to-cell communication is achieved through neurotransmitters, and the function of neurotransmitters is highly dependent on the proper functioning of astrocytes

ASTROCYTE APOPTOSIS: The process of cell death

We found that sertraline and paroxetine, two SSRIs, reduced CTX TNA2 astrocyte viability but not the other nine commonly used antidepressants, which include three SSRIs, one SNRI, two TCAs, one TeCA, one MAOI, and one SARI. Sertraline and paroxetine initiated a complex response of astrocyte apoptosis. It is shown that calcium overload induced mitochondrial dysfunction, which eventually leads to the activation of an intrinsic apoptotic pathway Consistent results of sertraline- and paroxetine-induced cell death and mitochondrial dysfunction were also observed in primary astrocytes.

In addition, our results showed that sertraline and paroxetine caused mitochondrial hyperpolarization at 3 h. Two peaks respectively represent populations of hyperpolarization and hypopolarization of the MMP. This phenomenon indicated that astrocyte mitochondria were damaged after mitochondrial hyperpolarization, and this may possibly due to calcium overload.

other source:

Healthy astrocytes have neuroprotective properties, but in order to function, these cells must be able to properly produce and process the neurotransmitter glutamate. But when cells have a toxic amount of glutamate, which kills neural cells, it leads to a condition called excitotoxicity.
In excitotoxicity, nerve cells suffer damage or death when the levels of otherwise necessary and safe neurotransmitters such as glutamate, which activate neurons, over-stimulate receptors. This can burn the connected cells and damage the brain.

So if i understand the article well, this drug caused a major calcium wave in my system (i did a re-instatement too, that completely crippled me). This calcium rise caused the trouble. An intracellular calcium rise is thought to play a primary role in initiating programmed cel death of neurons and astrocytes.

SO WHAT IS CAUSING MY PROBLEM THEN...

I always thought i had severe neuropathy, it must be tissue damage because i can't walk and i'm so disabled by it. But the tests didn't acknowledge it.

Now this article makes clear that simply said: The drug caused a calcium wave that damaged Astrocytes in the brain, the star formed cells that are necessary for the proper working of my neurotransmitters. The astrocyte removes the neurotransmitter glutamate from the synapse through high-affinity surface transporters, So without these proper working astrocytes my neurotransmitters don't do what they have to do. So my neuropathy, pain etc is most likely caused by a neurotransmitter problem.

Same with other symptoms that people have like insomnia, depression, anxiety it's all caused by neurotransmitter disruption. (In this case i can only say this for Paroxetine and Sertraline, because the study checked all 11 and it only showed these mechanisms in these 2 AD's the rest works different).

The neuropathy is so hellish, but it's no tissue neuropathy but brain (damage) neuropathy... that explains a lot, problem is, i can't do anything with it.

I also can't get a proper diagnosis... They can't measure neurotransmitters, astrocytes etc. So the only thing i hear from specialists is 'you are fine Mr no neuropathy'

I don't know a doctor that wants to read or is specialised in this. Basic neurologists wont acknowledge this. What i don't understand because these NCBI articles are written 'for doctors by doctors'...

But yes i can imagine it's difficult for them if they can't find anything wrong to believe such story, especially 'when this person was on an antidepressant' and a bit anxious in the past. So that makes it a lonely road, suffering unacceptably every single second of the day without help or acknowledgement. Just biting trough the indescribable pains. My pain levels are always 8-10.

another sourch:

Abnormal neuronal calcium (Ca²⁺) homeostasis has been implicated in numerous diseases of the nervous system. The pathogenesis of two increasingly common disorders of the peripheral nervous system, namely neuropathic pain and diabetic polyneuropathy, has been associated with aberrant Ca

September 17, 2022

On 7/21/2022 at 12:14 PM, 1WishToHeal said:

Hello people,

I came to some insights that i want to discuss.

I hope this thread doesn't gets to be deleted. I know here is everything called withdrawal and you will heal (i don't blame that) I just want to dive deeper into the topic. Because it's not as simple as 'withdrawal' there is an underlying pathology.

I took Paroxetine for <year but i'm severe disabled by the reinstatement. I'm left with severe crippling symptoms.

- i can't barely walk from the neuropathy (burning/stinging/biting/freezing lower legs, feet --> got very worse when walking or standing

- heavy pains (like fibro) 8-10 level
- heavy nerve pains all over 8-10 level

- sometimes feel poured over with gasoline and lit on fire

- housebound / bedridden 70% / 30%

- can't stand cold/wind/breeze, it feels like 'pain' on the skin

- no quality of life left, it's only pain and suffering, i can't even vacuum my house and have trouble preparing food to eat. Luckily my family helps me

- obsessive suicidal thoughts chemically induced i couldn't relative them, it was very hard to not give in but finally it dissapeared after 14 months, Thank God.

So mentally i'm okay now but i'm left with a disabled body. (but now i understand why the manufacturer had to pay 8billion in lawsuits for suicides)

- I feel completely toxic with a burning body when i wake up every morning and stays throughout the day, like there is flowing acid trough my veins. Like many people describe on this website caused by their antidepressant and i have no quality of life left, like many on this website.

- lost my job, social contacts, my marriage, hobby's etc. over time because i can't do anything.

Of course i have doubted about 'somatic symptoms' caused by anxiety etc. in the past

But i have no doubt that it's not a mental health problem, impossible. I also did a pharmacogenetic test that stated my body can't properly metabolise psych drugs and pain meds. (later more about that).

+ the biggest pharmaceutical lawsuit in the US history was against the manufacturer GSK because of the drug Paroxetine, they paid 8 billion$ in fines (biggest fine ever) for fraudulently marketing this drug, withholding safety data and manipulating safety tests. This drug has made many many victims and i found them all around the web and a lot are not even alive anymore. Many people are completely damaged and crippled like me. Young and old. Many took their own lives because of the suffering. Simple google searches will acknowledge this.

Mental health problems can cause a variety of heavy symptoms but this suffering, severity and strange behaviour of these symptoms is indescribable and unbearable as many on this website will acknowledge. Impossible.

So now my story:
I'm 20 months out and my walking only got worse over the months.

My neuropathy is the most disabling problem so i was convinced i had Small Fiber Neuropathy because of the biting/stinging/burning/freezing/heavy pains caused by Paroxetine. I did the tests but they where negative
- EMG

- Small Fiber Skin biopsy

I couldn't believe it because i feel so damaged and everything 'physically' looks perfectly fine. (test-wise)

Both where ok...

So i researched further and further and stumbled upon a scientific article at the scientific and legit NCBI database with the title:

'Antidepressants, sertraline and paroxetine, increase calcium influx and induce mitochondrial damage-mediated apoptosis of astrocytes'

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5777788/?fbclid=IwAR1avrYNU1ESE86V9_UZHCHSMl4C8C7LRFwqz894GhWXoK_9Ni71avGkr2k

It's a difficult read for a simple person, but doctors don't have the time or don't want to read into things i bring with me so i researched myself.

The first alinea of the article states:

After screening 11 different antidepressants, we found that sertraline and paroxetine induced astrocyte apoptosis.

We also revealed that sertraline and paroxetine induced mitochondrial damage, ROS generation (reactive oxygen species), and astrocyte apoptosis with elevation of cleaved-caspase 3 and cleaved-PARP levels. Ultimately, we validated these mechanisms in primary cultured astrocytes and neuron cells and obtained consistent results. These results suggest that sertraline and paroxetine cause astrocyte dysfunction, and this impairment may be involved in the pathogenesis of neurodegenerative diseases.

So what the heck are astrocytes then?

ASTROCYTES: The most common cell type in the brain is a special type known as the astrocyte. These star-shaped cells play an important role in the survival of nerve tissue as they are among the few nerve cells that can proliferate.

Cell-to-cell communication is achieved through neurotransmitters, and the function of neurotransmitters is highly dependent on the proper functioning of astrocytes

ASTROCYTE APOPTOSIS: The process of cell death

We found that sertraline and paroxetine, two SSRIs, reduced CTX TNA2 astrocyte viability but not the other nine commonly used antidepressants, which include three SSRIs, one SNRI, two TCAs, one TeCA, one MAOI, and one SARI. Sertraline and paroxetine initiated a complex response of astrocyte apoptosis. It is shown that calcium overload induced mitochondrial dysfunction, which eventually leads to the activation of an intrinsic apoptotic pathway Consistent results of sertraline- and paroxetine-induced cell death and mitochondrial dysfunction were also observed in primary astrocytes.

In addition, our results showed that sertraline and paroxetine caused mitochondrial hyperpolarization at 3 h. Two peaks respectively represent populations of hyperpolarization and hypopolarization of the MMP. This phenomenon indicated that astrocyte mitochondria were damaged after mitochondrial hyperpolarization, and this may possibly due to calcium overload.

other source:

Healthy astrocytes have neuroprotective properties, but in order to function, these cells must be able to properly produce and process the neurotransmitter glutamate. But when cells have a toxic amount of glutamate, which kills neural cells, it leads to a condition called excitotoxicity.
In excitotoxicity, nerve cells suffer damage or death when the levels of otherwise necessary and safe neurotransmitters such as glutamate, which activate neurons, over-stimulate receptors. This can burn the connected cells and damage the brain.

So if i understand the article well, this drug caused a major calcium wave in my system (i did a re-instatement too, that completely crippled me). This calcium rise caused the trouble. An intracellular calcium rise is thought to play a primary role in initiating programmed cel death of neurons and astrocytes.

SO WHAT IS CAUSING MY PROBLEM THEN...

I always thought i had severe neuropathy, it must be tissue damage because i can't walk and i'm so disabled by it. But the tests didn't acknowledge it.

Now this article makes clear that simply said: The drug caused a calcium wave that damaged Astrocytes in the brain, the star formed cells that are necessary for the proper working of my neurotransmitters. The astrocyte removes the neurotransmitter glutamate from the synapse through high-affinity surface transporters, So without these proper working astrocytes my neurotransmitters don't do what they have to do. So my neuropathy, pain etc is most likely caused by a neurotransmitter problem.

Same with other symptoms that people have like insomnia, depression, anxiety it's all caused by neurotransmitter disruption. (In this case i can only say this for Paroxetine and Sertraline, because the study checked all 11 and it only showed these mechanisms in these 2 AD's the rest works different).

The neuropathy is so hellish, but it's no tissue neuropathy but brain (damage) neuropathy... that explains a lot, problem is, i can't do anything with it.

I also can't get a proper diagnosis... They can't measure neurotransmitters, astrocytes etc. So the only thing i hear from specialists is 'you are fine Mr no neuropathy'

I don't know a doctor that wants to read or is specialised in this. Basic neurologists wont acknowledge this. What i don't understand because these NCBI articles are written 'for doctors by doctors'...

But yes i can imagine it's difficult for them if they can't find anything wrong to believe such story, especially 'when this person was on an antidepressant' and a bit anxious in the past. So that makes it a lonely road, suffering unacceptably every single second of the day without help or acknowledgement. Just biting trough the indescribable pains. My pain levels are always 8-10.

another sourch:

Abnormal neuronal calcium (Ca²⁺) homeostasis has been implicated in numerous diseases of the nervous system. The pathogenesis of two increasingly common disorders of the peripheral nervous system, namely neuropathic pain and diabetic polyneuropathy, has been associated with aberrant Ca²⁺ channel expression and function.

Neuropathic pain has a huge impact on quality of life and aberrant Ca²⁺ channel physiology and expression has been implicated in a number of pain states.

If i look on google 'can astrocytes heal':

Astrocytes are able to regenerate in response to CNS injury, and glial regeneration and repair are essential for long-term homeostasis and for complete recovery of intgerated functions.

So yeah, sounds promising but i'm not that convinced if i see my physical state and neuropathy intensity. It's also a simple 'google' search and not based on (neuro)toxictity.

It's also a problem no doctor wants to read into this subject at all.

Time will tell.

Just interested to discuss this with more people instead of ruminating about it on my own.

Tips, Ideas, insights, all welcome.

Best wishes.

*I also have to state that i did a pharmacogenetic test where they test how your genes respond on pharmaceutical drugs DNA-testing.

Outcome was, CYP2D6 gene is not properly metabolising, this gene is the most important gene to metabolise these drugs (SSRI, antipsychotics, pain meds) they control that the body can get rid of it. So that didn't happen in my case and i reached toxic levels i guess...

Also GSTM1 gene is 'Poor Metabolising NULL/NULL' This gene is 'glutathion S-transferase (GST) which play a role in the detoxification of foreign body-substances'.

i wish i could find a doctor educated in this subject....

I wish they read into it and connected the dots, so they give me at least a diagnosis for disability pay etc. It's not always as easy as 'not visible, so it's not'

I have came by ur thread .. the article that u have mentioned I have read it before .. and I think it is a key in the puzzle of what is happening in WD Hell ( since there is no physical test to diagnose so surely the problem is brain/neurotransmitter/astrocytes/

Mitochondrial Related which are all things we can't do tests for)

And I totally agree wiz u regarding doctors who don't want to know or be convinced that they all have been taught the wrong information .. their agony is high enough that they can't hear from their patients that they may be wrong or they should read more about recent updates or to know that maybe the drug causing an iatrogenic disease (which is a medical term that all of medical field know but they are impossible to tell that the drug they have prescribed is really causing iatrogenic disease🤷‍♀️😂)

Anyways I am an eager person to really know the solution for the problems that this poisons have caused that is why I spend some time reading few articles when I can (due to my brain fog)..

But what I wanna ask u is when did u experienced physical symptoms or mental shortly after u were on meds or when u stopped or when u reinstated ?

As if it happened for u shortly after taking meds it will confirm that the problem is due to variation in metabolizing genes , but if it happened after stopping it means that this drugs didn't cause neurotoxicity ( as what I think neurotoxicity effects will appear so fast or it will appear during taking of meds but not after stopping )

October 14, 2022

Found your thread looking for anyone who used a low glutamate diet to help - I was also damaged after my reinstatement but physically I’m ok - it’s my senses that are really messed up - mostly my eyes and ears - I also got frozen shoulder and I get really stiff muscles and toes and fingers move on their own into cramping positions - I’m still tapering - but am going to try a low glutamate diet - some people swear by it and it can’t hurt to eat plain and healthy

October 14, 2022

I’m sorry for your suffering. I was also injured by a reinstatement of an SSRI four years ago. The drug was Zoloft and I have been diagnosed with brain damage by several doctors. There are several tests that are used to diagnose neurotoxicity. The first tests ordered are typically MRI and EEG. For more subtle injuries more sensitive tests such as brain PET, SPECT, QEEG and neuropsych testing can be used. QEEG, SPECT and PET not all doctors utilize but many do. All these tests verify brain damage and typically hold up in court or disability as proof of a brain injury. Antidepressants work mostly on the CNS and the frontal lobes. So that usually is where a large % of the damage is. I suggest getting a QEEG for starters to see if you have abnormalities. The following is a paper on how QEEg is used. The knock on QEEG is that it’s used for Neurofeedback. And psychiatrists don’t like non pharmaceutical treatments. But the EEG portion of the QEEG typically shows encephalopathy (brain dysfunction or damage) by identifying slow wave activity, better than an EEG. Like most tests QEEG is not a standalone test. But information for you and a trustworthy doctor.

There are Facebook groups that discuss this in more detail.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7175442/#!po=2.58621

October 15, 2022

Thanks @kats for your message and i'm sorry you're going through this also..

Update:

Recently the neurologist wrote in my medical records:

''Determined cyp2d6 enzyme via farmaco genetic passport. Paroxetine has not been suitable, toxic dosing. Possibly an explanation for contemporary small fiber neuropathy.''

I never had neuropathy, pain, or any health issues before the 9 months use of Paroxetine + reinstatement. I was an athletic runner and there aren't any diseases in my family.

The skin biopsy for SFN was negative, but the neurologist still thinks it's the case because the tests are not 100% accurate.. I have all the symptoms of SFN. He said it alters the signalling in the nervous system in a bad way.

So it looks more like that these drugs can cause small fiber neuropathy not by damaging the nerve ends, but by damaging the control system of these nerve signals, so those signals are altered and give the same symptoms like damaged nerve ends but on another level. But in the end it's the same struggle.

I don't really care about the 'how exactly possible question' anymore because now at least my disability pay is approved, i receive household help from government, and i receive tools like wheelchair from government because i have a legit diagnosis. So this diagnosis is very helpful in my case. It also eases my mental suffering because finally someone acknowledged it in my records after seen many many specialists, that made me chronically angry and very bitter by their gaslighting even while bringing lawsuit papers with me about GSK and Paxil.

So i'm thankful for the help and honesty of that neurologist

Sadly it won't help at all with my physical daily struggle of being highly disabled by those torturous symptoms. Just hanging on every day.

Did i have improvements?

Yes but only on the mental side, i have battled 14 months straight with chemical induced suicidal thoughts, i fought for my life. Terror impending doom etc.

Luckily that subside after 14 months. I have my normal head back, but with some cognitive symptoms left i can cope with most of the time.

But physically i have no improvement, but i did just go backwards sadly..

If i can improve only 40% of my physical health i would take it by now.

I won't make myself any illusions based on looking back on my improvement, but still i keep hoping.

Best wishes to all. ♥️

And don't compare to my story please, if i say i won't make myself illusions it doesn't say you won't heal.

Everyone is different, it's just my opinion based on my situation.

October 15, 2022

Sorry, we cannot confirm any of these theories.

@1WishToHeal from your signature, it appears you went off Paxil in 2020, had severe withdrawal, and had an adverse reaction when you attempted to reinstate it. We know that Paxil is an especially difficult drug to go off, the withdrawal syndrome can be quite severe and last a very long time.

It seems to me that paroxetine withdrawal syndrome is your current condition, not paroxetine toxicity. Withdrawal syndromes tend to very slowly go away over many months, even years. See Protracted Withdrawal or PAWS (post-acute withdrawal syndrome)

October 21, 2022

On 9/17/2022 at 5:43 PM, Lilly998 said:

Anyways I am an eager person to really know the solution for the problems that this poisons have caused that is why I spend some time reading few articles when I can (due to my brain fog)..

But what I wanna ask u is when did u experienced physical symptoms or mental shortly after u were on meds or when u stopped or when u reinstated ?

Hey @Lilly998 thanks for your post.

I experienced physical symptoms like tension, burning knees, robot walking feeling immediately after starting the drug. I still kept taking it because my anxiety was gone... and i kept on hoping the physical symptoms would subside. It didn't so i tapered in 30days. Then physical problems started to become severe and i reinstated and that was the end of my body and walking sadly.

@Vonnegutjunkythanks i was thinking to try it out too, i have a referral to a dietician, but couldn't find the strength to call yet. I still have to do it.

Not ventured, nothing gained.

@Tom602 thanks for mentioning the QEEG.

I was thinking about it because i read about it. Is it an invasive test? Do they work with fluids, contrast dye etc? I'm scared to put anything in my body as you will understand. Or is it just a simple tests with a helmet and electrical measurement?

I have to know before i do such test that it's not possible to maken me worse (like with an MRI with the toxic contrast dye)

You tell me your QEEG showed brain damage, does it mean you have symptoms with the brain like cognition, brain fog, memory problems etc? Or do you also have physical symptoms caused by the brain damage. I'm curious to your symptoms, that they link to it.

What kind of specialist can do this test? Is it a neurologist?

Thanks in advance

- please don't close my thread because my vision doesn't stroke with the websites vision - It's good to discuss different views

October 22, 2022

-

October 24, 2022

@1WishToHeal

Is damaged astrocytes shown by a test u have done ?

Isn't it reversible .. I really hope it is reversible for u

I wish u return normal again .. this is totally inhumane !

November 1, 2022

On 10/24/2022 at 11:56 PM, Lilly998 said:

@1WishToHeal

Is damaged astrocytes shown by a test u have done ?

Isn't it reversible .. I really hope it is reversible for u

I wish u return normal again .. this is totally inhumane !

Sadly (probably) it's not. Apoptosis means cel death. And astrocytes are not able to regenerate.

It's sad that such drugs are legal without being honest and fair about the risks. Pharmaceutical companies know the risks. But it's all about the stocks. $$

Thanks for caring @Lilly998 I appreciate it !

November 1, 2022

24 minutes ago, 1WishToHeal said:

Sadly (probably) it's not. Apoptosis means cel death. And astrocytes are not able to regenerate.

It's sad that such drugs are legal without being honest and fair about the risks. Pharmaceutical companies know the risks. But it's all about the stocks. $$

Thanks for caring @Lilly998 I appreciate it !

No need

Is there a test to confirm a damage in astrocytes .. have u thought that this drugs have caused a disruption in the cholinergic system ( it is responsible for muscular functions in addition to mental functions)

U have said that ur symptoms had become worse after stopping this drugs .. so I guess/hope it is not a damage if it was a damage then if it hasn't decreased in intensity after stopping the drug it will at least remain in the same intensity not to worsen

Are there any supplements u have tried .. do u suffer from mental symptoms Bec it is also related to cholinergic system dysfunction

November 1, 2022

50 minutes ago, Lilly998 said:

No need

Is there a test to confirm a damage in astrocytes .. have u thought that this drugs have caused a disruption in the cholinergic system ( it is responsible for muscular functions in addition to mental functions)

U have said that ur symptoms had become worse after stopping this drugs .. so I guess/hope it is not a damage if it was a damage then if it hasn't decreased in intensity after stopping the drug it will at least remain in the same intensity not to worsen

Are there any supplements u have tried .. do u suffer from mental symptoms Bec it is also related to cholinergic system dysfunction

There is not a test (yet) that can show astrocytes as far as i know.

I think the cholinergic system is or was disrupted because i had severe mental symptoms. Those symptoms disappeared. But physically i'm left severe disabled.

There are 2 types of people

1. people who came of a drug (too fast), they are indeed in 'withdrawal' or protracted withdrawal

2. People who did a re-instatement of the drug with disastrous consequences.

Everything with these adverse reinstatements points to severe neurotoxicity. Why this happens is not yet exactly known.

That it happens is clear, even when they don't like it discussed on this website. I don't know exactly why that is. I guess to keep up the hopes for the tapering people because most tapering people do heal, and it can be triggering for some people to read,. I understand that. That's why i say every case is individual and better not compare with me or other severe cases.

I know in the beginning days how scared i got from posts from other people, i was scared that my head would never turn back to normal again. Deep inside i knew my head would someday clear up so i could ride it out somehow, and it did finally after 14 months of suicidal agony and terror.

My head is back to normal, but my body is just too wrecked, i know my body.

All the severe cases i know that are still disabled 5 or 10 years+ without improvement did an adverse re-instatement with an instant adverse disabling reaction.

Detoriating neurologic symptoms over the months/years is also a proven sign of (neuro)toxicity

It is proven that those drugs are neurotoxic. Some come away with it of course because their body metabolises well or something.. But some are just not that lucky. Taking psych meds is like Russian roulette. Sadly i hit the bullet.

Thanks for contacting me @Lilly998 wish you the best in your journey and i wish you much healing and hope! Just stay strong

November 2, 2022

11 hours ago, 1WishToHeal said:

Thanks for contacting me @Lilly998 wish you the best in your journey and i wish you much healing and hope! Just stay strong

U are much welcome

I really hope so .. u too

11 hours ago, 1WishToHeal said:

My head is back to normal, but my body is just too wrecked, i know my body

Thank God u at least your brain have survived

I am in so much anger for what is happening to all of us .. I just want it to stop!

Anyways I wish u the best and I really hope that our sufferings ends soon

November 2, 2022

2 hours ago, Lilly998 said:

I am in so much anger for what is happening to all of us .. I just want it to stop!

Anyways I wish u the best and I really hope that our sufferings ends soon

Me too @Lilly998!

Best wishes to you

and never stop hoping !

November 17, 2022

General interesting info - the following article still needs to be published, this research is still ongoing. It will be published soon officially. (i think it will be published on PSSDnetwork.com) - i don't suffer myself from PSSD, but it's interesting info for people who do.

At the University of Milan, the devastation of SSRI withdrawal effects continues to be better explored by the Professor Roberto Melcang's team. The findings have pointed to an explosion of pro-inflammatory cytokines and an autoimmune reaction in the body that worsens during withdrawal. Just as the theories of serotonin as the main effect of the drug have been overthrown in science, at the same time the serotonin-related theories of the so-called withdrawal symptoms were also overthrown. Good! It appears that almost all SSRI side effects and withdrawal effects are mediated through an immunological mechanism - an unfortunate large proportion develop autoimmune diseases as part of these drugs. In the light of current knowledge, the withdrawal symptoms are also a "disease", which fortunately for some subsides on its own, but for some it never subsides without treatment. Long Covid and Post SSRI syndromes seem to act through a common etiology, a logical mechanism. Attached is a yet-to-be published article. In PSSD support, the patients are currently the only ones in Finland to collect comprehensive antibody tests for the G-protein group, and these are analyzed in Germany. Article:

PSSD / protracted withdrawal patients report extremely debilitating and long lasting symptoms of a wide spectrum. The symptomology of these patients can differ from patient to patient, but commonly reported problems include: Fatigue, emotional blunting, demotivation, anhedonia, vertigo, tinnitus, sensory disturbances, sexual dysfunction, decreased or absent libido, altered smell and taste, chest pain, headache, "head pressure", shortness of breath, muscle pain, muscle weakness, bladder functioning problems, sleep disturbances, tremors or other movement disorders, cognitive declain (memory), GI problems, dysautonomia, dry eyes and dry skin, altered circulation, QT prolonging, altered body temperature control, blurred vision, suicidal thoughts and other neuropsyciatric symptoms. Interestingly recent evidence of Long Covid patients and Covid vaccination harmed patients report exactly similar symptomatology compared to several Post SSRI Patients.

New studies found sexual dysfunction extremely common among Long Covid (1,2,3,) Decreased or absent libido, ejaculation problems in men and arousal problems are often mentioned by long covid sufferes. Cambridge has documented anorgasmia as one of the long covid symptoms, anecdotal reports exist in many forums (4,) Different internet forums are full of people claiming that they developed genital numbness after covid or during long covid (6). Even though sexual dysfunction has been detected being one of the widest symptoms of long covid (5) it can be assumed being severely underreported due to the nature of the problem. Small fiber neuropathy, often with autonomic involvement, seems to be a typical finding after covid infection or among long covid (7,8,9,10,11,12). Also post Covid vaccine small fiber neuropathy is well documented in the medical literature (13,14,15,16,17). Tinnitus and changes in hearing are also possible in long covid (18,19). Interestingly also anhedonia, apathy and mood problems are well known complications of long covid (20,21,22,23). Even QT prolonging is documented being related to Covid infection (24,25,26). Also covid vaccine induced long QT and syncope are not rare (27,28,29). Interestingly we see all these claims and problems also among PSSD and protracted withdrawal patients.

As well as SSRIs also Covid and vaccination are associated with vasculitis (30,31,32,33,34,35,36,37,38,39,40). Movement disorders again are both well known events after SSRIs and Covid - kinetic movement disorders are also present post covid infection (41,42,43,44,45,46,47,48). Interestingly even post covid vaccine akathisias are starting to be documented (49).

Surely a question needs to be asked: Why can covid, covid vaccine and SSRIs all induce similar problems and also clinically 100 % similar syndromes?

The Spike protein of the Covid virus gets into cells through ACE-2 receptors. Both the people who are vaccinated against covid and people who had covid infection produce autoantibodies to ACE-2. Interestingly also SSRIs act on ACE-2 receptors (50). Anecdotal cases reported positive ACE-2 without vaccination or previous covid infection - but claimed having an active Post SSRI syndrome.

Anyhow the name of the SSRI drug (selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor) seems to mislead both the patients and doctors when trying to understand the mechanisms behind drug hazards. A scandinavian patient manifested with full-blown SSRI "withdrawal" symptoms and PSSD symptoms. After hundreds of hours of research this patient came up with an idea that this could be severe long Covid syndrome even though this patient had not got covid infections nor covid vaccines. Research and hypothesis made this patient requiring autoantibody tests involving all functional autoantibodies against protein G. Findings were positive and totally abnormal. All symptoms of this patient manifested just after a few weeks of SSRI use and worsened during / after withdrawal. No infections were detected but leukocytosis was found. The symptomology pretty much correlated to the autoantibodies found. A reduced blood flow with this same patient was confirmed in the Lung / Heart CT scan where the contrast agent did not spread normally in the tiniest blood vessels / capillaries. No clear embolization was found though. Soon after more PSSD people claimed to have tested positive against these rare autoantibodies as well. Some of these patients never had a covid vaccine nor covid infection. These functional G protein autoantibodies can be tested only in very rare special laboratories. Functional G protein autoantibodies are recently seen all the time among long covid patients when investigated (51,52,53,54,55). Auto-antibodies against protein G are associated with cognitive and vascular dysfunction, as well as neuroinflammation, blood-brain-barrier dysfunction and vascular inflammation. Even severe neuropsychiatric symptoms are associated with some of these auto-antibodies.

Interestingly neutralization of functional autoantibodies against protein G from Long Covid patients by using BC007 infusion ended-up with a significant recovery just within hours after treatment and a complete recovery later. Even problems with severe anhedonia, apathy, brain fog, demotivation, memory, behaviour, cognition, smell and taste, fatigue, circulation, twitching muscle, muscle pain, blood pressure, heart rejection, dysautonomia, shortness of breath, tremors, weakness resolved (56,57,58,59). Immunoadsorption therapy is also effective, but doesn't lead to a permanent cure as bc007 does.

Recent data has shown that Long Covid patients regularly suffer from sexual dysfunction, decreased or zero libido and anhedonia. 60% of Long Covid patients also have Small Fiber Neuropathy. Long Covid is even associated with problems such as ejaculation dysfunction and difficulty getting orgasm. Muscarinic receptor and Sexual Functioning are also related. Both PSSD patients and Long Covid patients can get their symptoms directly when on meds / during active infection but others crash weeks or even months after - likely due to immunological response. Functional auto-antibodies to protein G are responsible for reduced circulation and even micro clotting together with vascular dysfunction. Reduced circulation / blood flow in key brain areas leads to debilitating symptoms from nausea to anhedonia, demotivation, muscle weakness, tremors, dysautonomia etc. Changes in circulation have been documented in Post Covid / Long Covid cases (60,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,70,. Interestingly, anecdotal SPECT scans of PSSD and SSRI withdrawal syndrome patients show reduction in blood flow in many brain areas which correlates to studies pointing to SSRIs decreasing brain activity similar to severe long covid or covid.

Dr. Melcangi and his team has recently shown that Paroxetine treatment and withdrawal changed neurosteroids of rats (71). The same team has shown a profound effect of Paroxetine treatment in gut microbiota (72). Also other teams have claimed similar results. It is well known that neurosteroid synthesis can be substantially affected by neuroinflammation. Gut-microbiota-brain axis is a widely researched area in autoimmune diseases and neurological manifestations. Interestingly both SSRIs and Covid are associated with increased risk of developing Diabetes.

This all could be linked to autoimmunity involving endothelial dysfunction, again linked to rare antibodies against protein G. Regional brain perfusion as well as endothelial abnormalities are directly linked to altered mood, cognition, sexual performace and behaviour. As autoantibodies against protein G are linked also to dry eye syndrome, altered sweating and salivary function which are relatively often described from patients harmed by SSRI treatments, a full circle is closing and should be investigated as early as possible. Is PSSD in a keen relation to long covid via specific autoantibodies which require special treatments?

November 17, 2022

@Altostratado you know why paxilprogres suddenly shut down, or is it still a mystery after all those years?

November 17, 2022

Because the administrator became resentful of the demands from her community.

November 25, 2022

I was always very responsible with pharmaceuticals i never even took the full dose the doctor suggested, only half a dose and 'relatively' short term.

Still complete vegetable and bedridden 2 years later.

Those drugs are powerfull.

/rant

December 12, 2022

sleeping at parents house now, severely suicidal. My skin all over is extremely painful I can't wear clothes anymore now, can't stand breeze on my body, can't lie under a blanket, can't walk. 2 years later and worse neurologically then ever. I can't do this anymore.

Never had any history of health problems. All my feelings are toxic.

Please pray for me

January 10, 2023

@1WishToHeal My thoughts are with Ya, hope this year will be better ❤️

January 18, 2023

On 1/10/2023 at 7:16 PM, Pianca said:

@1WishToHeal My thoughts are with Ya, hope this year will be better ❤️

That’s nice of you Pianca.

i appreciate it. I wish you well

1WishToHeal: damaged astrocytes by paroxetine causing symptoms

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