Websites that claim 'low serotonin' = depression or chemical imbalance - please add

[Onmyway]

This is a thread where we can collate examples of websites that still claim that low serotonin causes depression or that claim chemical imbalances cause psychiatric problems. When you make additions pls also post the date and if possible add a screenshot. This will be good to document if/when things change. 

 

OMW 

[Onmyway]

All of these accessed on 25/07/2022

 

The third link was suggested to me by Google while looking up low serotonin recently. Note that the low serotonin claims are in the women's section - a strong target market for antidepressants. The same 'publication' has a more general statement about chemical imbalance  being a 'figure of speech' rather than meaning you have too little of something.  We are now redefining words to walk back previous statements. 

https://www.health.harvard.edu/mind-and-mood/what-causes-depression

 

"It's often said that depression results from a chemical imbalance, but that figure of speech doesn't capture how complex the disease is. Research suggests that depression doesn't spring from simply having too much or too little of certain brain chemicals. Rather, there are many possible causes of depression, including faulty mood regulation by the brain, genetic vulnerability, and stressful life events. It's believed that several of these forces interact to bring on depression.

To be sure, chemicals are involved in this process, but it is not a simple matter of one chemical being too low and another too high. Rather, many chemicals are involved, working both inside and outside nerve cells. There are millions, even billions, of chemical reactions that make up the dynamic system that is responsible for your mood, perceptions, and how you experience life."

 

https://www.health.harvard.edu/mind-and-mood/feel-good-hormones-how-they-affect-your-mind-mood-and-body

"Too little dopamine causes the stiff movements that are the hallmark of Parkinson’s disease. Although depression is more often linked to a lack of serotonin, studies find that a dopamine deficiency also contributes to a down mood. In particular, people with depression often suffer from a lack of motivation and concentration."

 

https://www.health.harvard.edu/mind-and-mood/serotonin-the-natural-mood-booster

"Low levels of serotonin are linked to depression. The most commonly used antidepressants, the selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) and serotonin and norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors (SNRIs), work by increasing serotonin levels in the brain."

Edited July 26, 2022 by Onmyway

[Onmyway]

One more also accessed on 25/07/2022

 

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/depression/in-depth/antidepressants/art-20046273

"Certain brain chemicals called neurotransmitters are associated with depression — particularly serotonin (ser-o-TOE-nin), norepinephrine (nor-ep-ih-NEF-rin) and dopamine (DOE-puh-meen). Most antidepressants relieve depression by affecting these neurotransmitters, sometimes called chemical messengers, which aid in communication between brain cells. Each type (class) of antidepressant affects these neurotransmitters in slightly different ways."

 

To their credit, they do warn about withdrawal: 

" Don't stop taking an antidepressant without talking to your doctor first. Some antidepressants can cause significant withdrawal-like symptoms unless you slowly taper off your dose. Quitting suddenly may cause a sudden worsening of depression." 

except it is not a sudden worsening of depression - it is withdrawal effects. 

[Ariel]

There is so much linguistic bullsh*tting and equivocating here, it's like one big CYA performance. They seem to invent so many other ways of expressing what are basically poorly disguised reiterations of the chemical imbalance theory, just calling it something else. The spin is shameless. So, too, is the unscientific way they play fast and loose with populist neurotransmitter babble, tossing around dopamine this and serotonin that. Pseudo-everything. 

 

What remains consistent is the focus (blame/responsibility) on individual human biology/biochemistry -- something going wrong inside you (likely due to some innate design flaw / manufacturing defect -> therefore it should be addressed/fixedinside you ) -- as opposed to social/societal complexity, interconnectedness, trauma, intersectonality, etc. The psychiatric power dynamic is dependent on the story of the individual being the problem since this is a key argument of the "regulating the individual" (for their own good as well as for the greater good) social control aspect, in addition to the pharmaceutical/medical industrial complex business model. 

 

They allow for "stressful life events" but this is listed following "faulty mood regulation by the brain, genetic vulnerability", which to my (admittedly possibly paranoid on this topic ears) makes it sound disingenuous and passive-aggressive. How are "faulty mood regulation by the brain, genetic vulnerability" not alternative or auxiliary or expanded versions of telling someone they have a chemical imbalance? 

 

It's all just such junk. 

 

Have you seen this? I find it galvanizing.

In case anyone needs a palate cleanser:

 

[Onmyway]

4 minutes ago, Ariel said:

There is so much linguistic bullsh*tting and equivocating here, it's like one big CYA performance. They seem to invent so many other ways of expressing what are basically poorly disguised reiterations of the chemical imbalance theory, just calling it something else. The spin is shameless. So, too, is the unscientific way they play fast and loose with populist neurotransmitter babble, tossing around dopamine this and serotonin that. Pseudo-everything. 

 

What remains consistent is the focus (blame/responsibility) on individual human biology/biochemistry -- something going wrong inside you (likely due to some innate design flaw / manufacturing defect -> therefore it should be addressed/fixedinside you ) -- as opposed to social/societal complexity, interconnectedness, trauma, intersectonality, etc. The psychiatric power dynamic is dependent on the story of the individual being the problem since this is a key argument of the "regulating the individual" (for their own good as well as for the greater good) social control aspect, in addition to the pharmaceutical/medical industrial complex business model. 

 

They allow for "stressful life events" but this is listed following "faulty mood regulation by the brain, genetic vulnerability", which to my (admittedly possibly paranoid on this topic ears) makes it sound disingenuous and passive-aggressive. How are "faulty mood regulation by the brain, genetic vulnerability" not alternative or auxiliary or expanded versions of telling someone they have a chemical imbalance? 

 

It's all just such junk. 

 

Have you seen this? I find it galvanizing.

In case anyone needs a palate cleanser:

 

Your post with that article is what prompted this idea actually @Ariel. I heart Mark Horowitz and Joanna Moncrieff. Would love to meet them in real life and kiss their feet or something. Whatever people do to those who saved their life. If it wasn't for the withdrawal article by Horowitz and subsequent reinstatement (before finding SA) I don't know what I would do.

 

@Ariel, if you haven't read Sami Timimi's book on MIA, you're going to love it!

Edited July 26, 2022 by Onmyway

[Ariel]

11 minutes ago, Onmyway said:

@Ariel, if you haven't read Sami Timimi's book on MIA, you're going to love it!

 

Thank you for the recommendation, @Onmyway

Is this the one you mean? https://www.madinamerica.com/insane-medicine/

 

Thank you, I hadn't heard of Sami Timimi.

I am happy to learn of his existence, looks like he's doing excellent work!

 

To be honest my emotional capacity for reading anything related to psychiatry, incl. important, oppositional, activist stuff, is very limited.

Most of the time I find the topic endlessly upsetting and it can trigger painful spirals. Often best to avoid for the time being. 

 

However, I am always encouraged and uplifted to hear of capable people fighting the good fight.

Indeed, sometimes when I'm really struggling I recall their names to remind myself that all is not lost.

Thank you for bringing another one to my attention.

[Onmyway]

Yes, would be triggering probably then. I try to use my anger for good but can't always stop it from spiraling. But he's one of the good guys calling out the bullsh*t and I'd love to meet him some day. I have such enormous respect for intellectuals who are true to what they see and call it as they see it.

 

Reminds me of the distrust people where I grew up would have for the psychiatric hospital and any psychiatrist. They saw the psychiatrists as the crazy people. Depression and anxiety didn't really exist. People were sad. Some were neurotic, a few others were odd but the psych hospital had few clients. People cared for their 'odd', 'sad' or  'crazy' at home in the community. 

 

Until I had a cousin who was committed. I won't share the details because it's a bad story. Then the pills came in and psychiatrists became "ok", legit, regular doctors. No wonder they don't want to give that up.

 

Though luckily where I grew up depression and anxiety are still not diseases, just ways of being people. Someone might go get holy water or something from some special well in the forest to make their child better. I don't know that that isn't any better than the meds. It's placebo in the end.

 

[Mirtazapine20mg]

5 hours ago, Onmyway said:

This is a thread where we can collate examples of websites that still claim that low serotonin causes depression or that claim chemical imbalances cause psychiatric problems. When you make additions pls also post the date and if possible add a screenshot. This will be good to document if/when things change.

What a brilliant idea. 

 

Edited July 26, 2022 by ChessieCat
removed unnecessary profanity

[Mirtazapine20mg]

Denmark is home to Lundbeck (Citalopram, Vortioxine), and Denmark is a small country with small absolute GDP, and hence our pharmaceutical industry adds significantly and positively to danish trade balance. Actually the pharma industry is the biggest single exporter of goods and services in Denmark. For this reason alone there is absolutely no criticism of Big Pharma in Denmark. Now to the fun part. The following link, sundhed.dk [health.dk], is a website published by the official danish health authorities. It is the go to site for health information for GPs in Denmark: 

 

https://www.sundhed.dk/sundhedsfaglig/laegehaandbogen/psykiatri/tilstande-og-sygdomme/depressioner/depression/

 

Among other things the Web page states: 

[In serious depressions functional activity of the serotonin receptor 5-HT1A is subdued.] (Original danish: "Ved alvorlige depressioner ses nedsat funktionel aktivitet i bl.a. serotoninreceptoren 5-HT1A".)

 

[Some people are probably born with genes which elevates their risk of depression when experiencing traumatic events. For example it could be a certain gen variant controlling the binding of serotonin in the junction between neurons] ". Original danish: ("Nogle mennesker er formentlig født med gener, som øger deres risiko for at reagere med depression ved belastende hændelser. Det kan f.eks. være en særlig variant af det gen, som bestemmer bindingen af stoffet serotonin til nervespalten.")

[Mirtazapine20mg]

The webpage referenced above, the official governmental manual for GPs, is "professionally" updated 10.03.21. The serotonin-deficiency-hypothesis is alive and well among health professionals in Denmark. I have saved relevant web pages for future reference.  

 

[Onmyway]

1 hour ago, Mirtazapine20mg said:

The webpage referenced above, the official governmental manual for GPs, is "professionally" updated 10.03.21. The serotonin-deficiency-hypothesis is alive and well among health professionals in Denmark. I have saved relevant web pages for future reference.  

 

We now need to show this to Ronald Pies, former director of the APA who claims that the chemical imbalance claim has never been espoused by psychiatrists, only pharma people.

[Mirtazapine20mg]

The "we have left the serotonin imbalance hypothesis long ago" and "we view SSRIs as paracetamol: we don't now how it works, but it does"-view adopted in the current debate is farcical when one begins read what is actually published both from official governmental agencies but also research papers.

1 hour ago, Onmyway said:

We now need to show this to Ronald Pies, former director of the APA who claims that the chemical imbalance claim has never been espoused by psychiatrists, only pharma people.

You are so right @Onmyway: The Ronald Pies-save is just... 🤦‍♂️. Btw you probably saw David Nuts comment about serotonin to the Montcrieff et. al.-paper: "It is only recently that we have developed the technology to measure serotonin release in the living human brain and in the first study of this type (currently under review) we did find decreased serotonin release capacity in people with depression. So, to dismiss the serotonin hypothesis of depression at this point is premature.” And the you see this (Lundbeck, Citalopram, Vortioxine) :

 

https://institute.progress.im/en/content/david-nutt

 

 

[Onmyway]

https://www.webmd.com/women/pms/news/20000706/fda-approves-prozac-for-treating-severe-form-of-pms

 

Another one, this time on "PMDD"

"Although researchers do not know why the drug helped ease the symptoms, they speculate that it may interact with the brain chemical serotonin, which is thought to trigger symptoms of PMDD when it is off balance."

[Onmyway]

20 hours ago, Mirtazapine20mg said:

The "we have left the serotonin imbalance hypothesis long ago" and "we view SSRIs as paracetamol: we don't now how it works, but it does"-view adopted in the current debate is farcical when one begins read what is actually published both from official governmental agencies but also research papers.

You are so right @Onmyway: The Ronald Pies-save is just... 🤦‍♂️. Btw you probably saw David Nuts comment about serotonin to the Montcrieff et. al.-paper: "It is only recently that we have developed the technology to measure serotonin release in the living human brain and in the first study of this type (currently under review) we did find decreased serotonin release capacity in people with depression. So, to dismiss the serotonin hypothesis of depression at this point is premature.” And the you see this (Lundbeck, Citalopram, Vortioxine) :

 

https://institute.progress.im/en/content/david-nutt

The whole array of comments was funny - some of them kept insisting it works and some of them kept insisting that no self-respecting psychiatrist would ever believe such a preposterous theory. 

[Onmyway]

22 hours ago, Mirtazapine20mg said:

The "we have left the serotonin imbalance hypothesis long ago" and "we view SSRIs as paracetamol: we don't now how it works, but it does"-view adopted in the current debate is farcical when one begins read what is actually published both from official governmental agencies but also research papers.

You are so right @Onmyway: The Ronald Pies-save is just... 🤦‍♂️. Btw you probably saw David Nuts comment about serotonin to the Montcrieff et. al.-paper: "It is only recently that we have developed the technology to measure serotonin release in the living human brain and in the first study of this type (currently under review) we did find decreased serotonin release capacity in people with depression. So, to dismiss the serotonin hypothesis of depression at this point is premature.” And the you see this (Lundbeck, Citalopram, Vortioxine) :

 

https://institute.progress.im/en/content/david-nutt

 

 

He also chimed in here: 

https://theconversation.com/depression-low-serotonin-may-not-be-the-cause-but-antidepressants-still-work-187477

I think we need to post our withdrawal stories there before they close the comments. 

[Mirtazapine20mg]

I will cover the danish side things in this topic. 

 

One more explanation of serotonin as the cause of depression, this time from the The Association of Danish Pharmacies. It is not clearcut serotonin explanation for depression, but serotonin is undoubtedly guilty by association: 

 

The Association of Danish Pharmacies writes: [The cause of depression is unknown, but in connection with depression her are changes in the brains metabolism (my italics). In depression changes in the amount serotonin and noradrenalin are observed. The biological basis for depression is only partly clarified.] Original danish: ("Årsagen til depression er ukendt, men i forbindelse med depression ses en ændring af stofskiftet i hjernen. Ændringer ses i mængden af forskellige signalstoffer som fx serotonin og noradrenalin. Den biologiske forklaring er fortsat kun delvis afklaret.")

 

https://www.apoteket.dk/sygdom/psyke/depression

[Mirtazapine20mg]

Moncrieff/Horowitz's answer to critics of resent paper: https://www.madinamerica.com/2022/07/response-criticism-serotonin-paper/. Please repost if this is the wrong place :-). 

[Ariel]

This is a write-up in Forbes magazine from June 2015 in regards to a paper dated August 2015, so all a bit older. Might be slightly adjacent to this topic and not a perfect match as it isn't current and may be considered old news but I find it interesting and wasn't sure where else to post it. 

 

The Popular Assumption About SSRI Meds That Could Be Completely Wrong

https://www.forbes.com/sites/daviddisalvo/2015/06/30/the-popular-assumption-about-ssris-that-could-be-completely-wrong/

 

"Millions of people suffering from depression and anxiety disorders take SSRI medications that alter levels of the neurotransmitter serotonin in their brains. The common assumption is that these meds increase the amount of serotonin available in the brain, which in turn helps alleviate symptoms.  But a new study shows that, at least for anxiety disorders, this assumption may have the story exactly backwards.

Researchers used positron emission tomography (PET) scanners in combination with a chemical tracer to measure the specific chemical signal associated with serotonin in the brains of people suffering from social phobias, a common form of anxiety disorder. Instead of finding too little serotonin, the researchers found that the participants’ brains produced too much serotonin, particularly in their amygdala, a part of the brain that plays a major role in catalyzing the fear response. The more serotonin produced in these peoples’ brains, the more intense their anxiety."

 

(bold-text emphasis mine)

 

Whether it's about too much or too little serotonin in regards to depression or anxiety (or PMDD or anything else), it's still the same tired old chemical imbalance premise. A good example of one of the major problems with ongoing research -- complex bias influencing study design and results. Building on the same false premise, operating within the same conceptual parameters, will just continue to skew "findings" in that direction and perpetuate the myth. The chemical imbalance story seems to present such a fundamental divide, a politically charged narrative barrier that not only determines one's jumping-off point but necessarily also where one lands. 

 

The study referenced in the article: 

Serotonin Synthesis and Reuptake in Social Anxiety Disorder - A Positron Emission Tomography Study

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/2319711

[Mirtazapine20mg]

God I love you Ariel. Thank you for this save.

[Onmyway]

We are now on the chemical imbalance ADHD (apparently you lack norepinephrine with ADHD).

https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/features/a41083545/adhd-in-adult-women/

 

It is the new wave of middle aged, upper middle class (usually white) women relying on chemical help to manage a life that is increasingly demanding too much of them and is overwhelming them - we went through diazepam (Mother's Little Helper), prozac and now we are onto Adderall! And enough psychiatrists who find new reason for existence now that the ADs are getting out of fashion. Goodness gracious. Will this ever end! These drugs are even more addictive despite people thinking that amphetamines when prescribed by doctors are not addictive by some magical power. They think that for a good reason actually because their doctors and the pharma companies have told them that. 

 

In this article the role of trauma is told as secondary because apparently there is a genetic component (if it runs in families it can't possibly be anything but genetic - forget that families also share environment). Is it the specialness that this presents, the excuse for being different and struggling with life (which trauma does bring). It's interesting that for all their 'mental health is important' cheering seems like these people can accept the importance of mental health only if it is biological. 

 

OMW

Edited September 11, 2022 by Onmyway

[Crepe]

The Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Psychiatrists. What else can I say?

 

https://www.psychwatchaustralia.com/post/myth-persists-at-ranzcp-college-of-psychiatrists-still-claims-that-meds-rebalance-brain-chemicals

 

 

[ChessieCat]

48 minutes ago, Crepe said:

The Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Psychiatrists. What else can I say?

 

https://www.psychwatchaustralia.com/post/myth-persists-at-ranzcp-college-of-psychiatrists-still-claims-that-meds-rebalance-brain-chemicals

 

 

 

@Crepe At least we know better!

[Crepe]

beyondblue.org.au repeatedly refers to chemical imbalances, though it does state that this is not the only cause of depression or anxiety. "Antidepressant medication is designed to correct the imbalance of chemical messages between nerve cells (neurones) in the brain." The information sheets are full of outdated information and untruths, too many for me to quote here. One of the "fact sheets" hasn't been updated since 2016.

The website also says fluoxetine is the most effective drug for the child/adolescent age group, even though here in Aust it's not recommended for use in under 18s.

The beyond blue forums are for people to get support and information, yet people seeking info or advice on withdrawals are very often told (in the nicest possible way) they should go back on their meds because they obviously need them. Not supportive or informative.