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peggy

upregulating downregulation....

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Skyler

Due to years of emotional abuse I never had any zest for life.

I was not living, just existing and I had no confidence

I had poor concentration and felt vulnerable when around angry people.

Ultimately speed was fake confidence, zest for life, enthusiasm and focus though, but to me, fake was better than none.

I just found the concept of having no speed unthinkable. Once I had got a taste of the fake confience etc I was unwilling to go back to my old tired walking corpse self.

 

So, i had to say goodbye to always having something interesting to do, and hello to depression, anxiety, de-motivation and a whole other nightmare benzo withdrawal symptoms.

I have been speed free ever since.

 

Did you have much by way of withdrawal symptoms in the way we usually think of them? That was what I referring to, though I obviously was unclear.

 

Wow promise, you have my admiration. What a battle you waged. You are more tenacious than most of us. Thanks for sharing.

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primrose

 

So, i had to say goodbye to always having something interesting to do, and hello to depression, anxiety, de-motivation and a whole other nightmare benzo withdrawal symptoms.

I have been speed free ever since.

 

Did you have much by way of withdrawal symptoms in the way we usually think of them? That was what I referring to, though I obviously was unclear.

 

Wow promise, my virtual hat is off to you. You have more tenacity than many of us. Thanks for sharing.

 

I never got any withdrawal symptoms that you would normally expect with benzos and other psych drugs, but, then again, when I stopped, I was suffering valium withdrawal symptoms from stopping cold turkey valium.

Niether I, nor my doctor knew I was addicted to benzos because I was not taking valium daily as per her instructions and I was ony taking the zolpidem a week at a time, which my doctor incorrectly told me was not cross tolerant with benzos. (see Ashton manual for citations regarding z-drugs cross tolerance with benzos) http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/index.htm

 

I used to go for several weeks without speed due to supply issues, and never got withdrawals. I just went back to my natural state which was un-manageable as it was too emotionally intense, yet not moving through these emotions, they just looped round and round.

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tezza

Should tryptophan be avoided? I've been taking it for about three weeks. Does it need to be tapered? :unsure:

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Altostrata

Does it help you? It looks like serotonergic supplements might cause downregulation etc. if used too long.

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tezza

I started sleeping somewhat better but I could have just been having a wave that was disrupting sleep prior to starting it. So it's hard to say for sure if the tryptophan made the difference or not.

 

I had started waking more during the night.

 

I've gotten so low on Xanax, soma, remeron and Risperdal (all bedtime meds) that sometimes it's hard to fall asleep, like it was before I started taking Xanax and soma at bedtime.

 

One trick I used before taking those two was to count backwards from 100, I've started doing that again, it works sometimes. Especially if I can't turn off my thoughts.

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tezza

I think I'll test tonight without it.

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tezza

I left off the tryptophan last night and did wake up a couple of times. The first wake up wasn't a problem going back to sleep. The second wake up was much more difficult to go back.

 

Dreaming was more vivid again and the dream before the second wake up was the 'thriller movie' type. Also, the second wake up was around 4am.

 

I don't think I will take the chance with the tryptophan.

 

The first night I took it, I slept more soundly than I had for quite some time; if its down-regulating it's not worth it.

 

Thank for starting this thread, Peggy.

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Altostrata

You might want to use it only occasionally, or at a half-dose.

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tezza

Yes, occasionally, thanks :)

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mm100

I know this is far too simplified....but....many people dont hit withdrawal until they are many months off ssris (this was the case for me and I was an otherwise healthy young man) I used paxil for 3 years and quit cold turkey...also had a kindling reaction when trying to reinstate the drug..

 

it seems to me that the problems may start due to the UPREGULATION of the serotonin receptors after discontinuing the drug, and this is also why taking the drug again will not help as the serotonin system is far too sensitized (upregulated)

 

I was also a chronic marijuana smoker and last year found that although smoing it helped for a short time, after a while it turned on me in a massive way, all the studies I have read say that Marijuana upregulates serotonin receptors...it left me back at square 1 in my withdrawal

 

also...as I have severe akathisia...I cam across this on the mechanism behind ssri endued akathisia

 

There are several drugs that have no affinity for the  D2 receptor, but do cause akathisia. The most well known are the SSRIs. It has been suggested that SSRIs induce akathisia (and parkinsonism) by indirectly stimulating serotonin (5-HT)2A receptors, which results in inhibition of DA release.1,11 This is in line with the hypothesis that atypical antipsychotics give rise to less akathisia than classical drugs by blocking these serotonin 5-HT2A receptors.1,11,13

 

 

Many people and sites point to downregulation being the issue, and we are waiting not so patiently for serotonin receptors to upregulate...however the start up effects of these drugs are the same as the withdrawal, where it was TOO MUCH serotonin casuing the exact same symptoms, not too little, it appears to me that dopmaine is what we (or I) am lacking in, and not serotonin, but by administering more dopamine when its likely the amounts and receptors are normal (perhaps) would cause dopamine downregulation as the brain would be flooded....is there a way to block the serotonin receptors?? and therefore redirect the dopamine to the cirrect brain areas?

 

I have corresponded with many people, many many years off who are not healed which leads me to doubt that in more severe cases time with correct this damage...or over sensitisation of serotonin receptors, just throwing this theory out there :)

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mm100

oh, and I say this also as I have found ANYTHING that increases serotonin make my symptoms a zillion times worse....foods, fish oils, anything

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Altostrata

Once you've developed post-acute discontinuation syndrome, anything might cause kindling. Serotonin upregulation or downregulation is not the key, the hypersensitivity is due to a more far-reaching nervous system dysfunction.

 

There are dozens or maybe hundreds of neurotransmitters beyond serotonin, dopamine, noradrenaline, GABA, etc. Any psychiatric drug affects far more than the "target" receptor. 

 

Serotonergic downregulation in acute withdrawal syndrome provides the environment for nervous system dysfunction later. It's like a chain of falling dominoes. Nervous system dysfunction can continue long after serotonergic downregulation has corrected. After the acute phase, serotonergic downregulation is a moot issue.

 

It's unfortunate that because of the prevalence of the discredited "chemical imbalance" theory, people continue to think in terms of a few neurotransmitters, forgetting that the nervous system and body are much more complex and function on hundreds of hormones working in concert.

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Rhiannon

Thanks Alto!

 

Yes, to what she said. The nervous system is indescribably more complicated than the cartoonish ways it's talked about in TV commercials and magazines and the media. And nothing happens in isolation; everything interacts with everything else in complex feedback loops that occur in microseconds. 

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mm100

Thankyou Altostrata and Rhi

 

I have been reading on the pssd forum who belive that 5ht1 desesnsitisation is behind pssd, they have found by using 5ht1 aginists/antagonists they can relive their symptoms somewhat so there must be things that can help

 

is it possible to recover from kindling or hypersensitivity? Im worried I have gone one step too far with my marijuana use

 

Th term hypsersensitivity worries me also, as I am led to belive that it is that mechanism behind tardive dyskinesia, and that is rarely cured or reversed

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Altostrata

I do not believe SSRIsex has found anything that relieves withdrawal syndrome. Mostly, they are looking for ways to cure PSSD, and they are mostly male.

 

There are a lot of experiments with different drugs and supplements, most doing nothing helpful. If they've found something that reliably diminishes PSSD, I haven't heard about it.

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reachingforthestars

I know this is far too simplified....but....many people dont hit withdrawal until they are many months off ssris (this was the case for me and I was an otherwise healthy young man) I used paxil for 3 years and quit cold turkey...also had a kindling reaction when trying to reinstate the drug..

 

it seems to me that the problems may start due to the UPREGULATION of the serotonin receptors after discontinuing the drug, and this is also why taking the drug again will not help as the serotonin system is far too sensitized (upregulated)

 

I was also a chronic marijuana smoker and last year found that although smoing it helped for a short time, after a while it turned on me in a massive way, all the studies I have read say that Marijuana upregulates serotonin receptors...it left me back at square 1 in my withdrawal

 

also...as I have severe akathisia...I cam across this on the mechanism behind ssri endued akathisia

 

There are several drugs that have no affinity for the  D2 receptor, but do cause akathisia. The most well known are the SSRIs. It has been suggested that SSRIs induce akathisia (and parkinsonism) by indirectly stimulating serotonin (5-HT)2A receptors, which results in inhibition of DA release.1,11 This is in line with the hypothesis that atypical antipsychotics give rise to less akathisia than classical drugs by blocking these serotonin 5-HT2A receptors.1,11,13

 

 

Many people and sites point to downregulation being the issue, and we are waiting not so patiently for serotonin receptors to upregulate...however the start up effects of these drugs are the same as the withdrawal, where it was TOO MUCH serotonin casuing the exact same symptoms, not too little, it appears to me that dopmaine is what we (or I) am lacking in, and not serotonin, but by administering more dopamine when its likely the amounts and receptors are normal (perhaps) would cause dopamine downregulation as the brain would be flooded....is there a way to block the serotonin receptors?? and therefore redirect the dopamine to the cirrect brain areas?

 

I have corresponded with many people, many many years off who are not healed which leads me to doubt that in more severe cases time with correct this damage...or over sensitisation of serotonin receptors, just throwing this theory out there :)

 

I think this happened to me to since I had symptoms of serotonin syndrome after updosing last autumn and I became anhedonic after that. Before updosing I was very very emotional crying and laughing a lot. 

 

Alto said earlier in this thread that drug-induced emotional anesthesia or, in its more persistent version, "treatment-resistant depression," may be an iatrogenic state of maximal receptor downregulation and she also said that others believe the self-regulatory ability breaks; still others think this might happen but the nervous system corrects itself through other receptors (redundancy of systems).

 

So I think that before updosing my body had started to use some other receptors since  I had tapered from 40mg to 4mg and maybe that's why the effect of updosing was toxic to my CNS? So due to that updosing those other receptors became desensitezed too...

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