☼ Rob2 : lingering side effects after lithium carbonate

[Rob2]

Hello to all,

 

Beginning on May 8th 2022 I was put on lithium carbonate at 600 mg. After about ten days I began to feel some debilitating side effects. These included being very slowed down cognitively, concentration and memory issues, and feeling exhausted after pushing myself to do a fraction of my usual amount of work. Two weeks in, I actually felt quite ill for about four days. During that time I could not even focus enough to drive a car properly and I felt completely drugged. This passed, though, but the other side effects stayed. 

 

A blood test done on May 25th showed lithium blood levels of 0,4 mmol/l, and on June 2nd the psychiatrist upped me to 800mg to get me into the therapeutic range. This just made the side effects worse. 

 

As the psychiatrist was not making sense of my symptoms I went to see my GP for help. He found no physical symptoms of toxicity (shaking hands, etc.), but he referred me to another psychiatrist to get a second opinion. (If it is useful, I can add that the only straight-up physical symptom I ever displayed was a friend noticing that I had become physically bright red after a two hour academic seminar I was struggling to stay focused in.)

 

The second psychiatrist seemed a little worried, but not a lot, and told me to go back down to 600mg of lithium, which I did on June 14th. Still, I did not feel that what he told me was completely cogent either, which prompted me to get an online appointment with a psychiatrist specialized in de-prescribing. This psychiatrist was *much* clearer than the others and encouraged me to taper down completely over a month. So I progressively went from 800 mg to zero from June 14th to July 13th 2022, following the recommended steps of dose reduction.

 

The tapering went well and the only symptom I experienced was unusual fatigue when bringing the dose down for a day or two. Yet, when I finished the taper, the side effects had not improved very much.

 

Now it has now been almost four months and the side effects have only improved partially. On the bright side, I no longer feel like a zombie, but I am not entirely back to myself either. My social skills and instincts still feel off, for example. But what is very problematic is that my intellectual abilities have not returned enough to get back to work. I am in an academic field which requires a very high level of concentration, and I still feel out of my depth when attempting what should be normal for me. I am also only able to get a fraction of my normal quantity of work done, even when attempting easier things. I am currently on a medical leave of absence because of this. Another symptom I can add is that I react poorly to any kind of intensity while exercising, usually feeling unusually tired/off for a couple days afterwards.

 

What I am seeking is an explanation of what happened with the lithium, so as to be able to find a prognosis. One psychiatrists told me that I am experiencing a difficult withdrawal and that all should be normal in a matter of months. Another wondered if I experienced a form of lithium toxicity, which can cause long term damage. But, to be honest, neither seemed very assured in what they were saying, nor to have much knowledge on lithium withdrawal. I am still seeking a comptent medical professional to guide me, but this is a slow process.

 

The information I have found while doing research has sadly been quite confusing, and even contradictory sometimes. I would be grateful for any insight that this forum could provide. Simply being able to name what is going on with me would be a huge relief, as well as getting some sense on what kind of outcome I can hope for.  

 

Thanks for any insight you might be able to provide!

[Shep]

Hi, @Rob2.

 

Welcome to Surviving Antidepressants. Please 

 

Is lithium the only psychiatric drug you've been on in the past? Are you currently taking anything? 

 

If you were only on lithium for one month, you may want to continue to abstain from it and work on non-drug coping skills, self-care, and possibly adding in some fish oil and magnesium to help with these lingering symptoms. Here's more on these two supplements: 

 

King of supplements: Omega-3 fatty acids (fish oil)

 

Magnesium, nature's calcium channel blocker

 

Please only add in one supplement at a time and always start at a low dose. You can always increase when you know how you react to it. 

 

On 11/10/2022 at 5:56 AM, Rob2 said:

The information I have found while doing research has sadly been quite confusing, and even contradictory sometimes. I would be grateful for any insight that this forum could provide. Simply being able to name what is going on with me would be a huge relief, as well as getting some sense on what kind of outcome I can hope for.  

 

What you described sounds like you had some side effects, possibly even adverse effects, from lithium. Being 4 months off and still having symptoms may very well be withdrawal symptoms. It only takes a month to become dependent on psychiatric drugs. 

 

If you are currently taking any other psych drugs, please let us know more about your history. 

 

Please continue to use this thread to document your recovery and to ask questions. 

Edited November 17, 2022 by Shep
fixed link

[Rob2]

Thank you very much for this helpful response! No, I am not on any other psychiatric drugs, and do not intend to go on any again. I am quite opposed to the use of psychiatric drugs in most cases, and know by experience that I would be very sensitive to anything like that. I was somehow convinced that lithium, though, would be harmless and decided to give it a shot... 

 

Overall, I was on the full dose for five weeks and the taper was four, so I'd say I was on a significant dose for about seven. 

 

My scariest symptom is that some of my intellectual skills, especially regarding academic writing, seem to almost simply not be there anymore. When I try to write academically, I can still do it somewhat (for a little bit), but I feel a bit like I did as an undergraduate quite a few years go, without a firm sense of the quality and a bit out of my depth. My past writing also reads to me as if it was written by someone significantly smarter than myself (odd feeling!). Though my mind *has* sped back up a bit since stopping the lithium, so I'm hoping that that will continue.

 

I am already taking omega 3's, but will definitely look into magnesium. Thanks!

 

I really had no idea that I could become dependent on lithium in just a month... That is a very helpful piece of information. My system is really out of whack, and withdrawal feels it could be the right explanation. I did read about some cases of chronic toxicity in which the symptoms somewhat resembled mine, but they did all seem quite a bit more severe. I have found zero case studies so far on challenging lithium withdrawals though, and virtually no online testimonies (only one person really, on Reddit, who said it took a couple months after stopping for their cognitive abilities to recover).

 

 

 

 

[Shep]

21 hours ago, Rob2 said:

I have found zero case studies so far on challenging lithium withdrawals though, and virtually no online testimonies (only one person really, on Reddit, who said it took a couple months after stopping for their cognitive abilities to recover).

 

Even though you're not tapering, you may find the information in this thread helpful for background information on this drug:

 

Tips for tapering off lithium

 

The members posting in that thread are tapering off this drug. 

 

You can also do a search in the Success Stories forum for people who've gone off this drug, dealt with withdrawal, and are now healed. 

 

21 hours ago, Rob2 said:

My scariest symptom is that some of my intellectual skills, especially regarding academic writing, seem to almost simply not be there anymore.

 

How is your sleep? That can play a large role in cognitive skills. Did you go on lithium because of insomnia or feeling too wired (i.e. hypomanic)? Are you or were you before taking lithium, using a lot of caffeine or other stimulants for your studies? 

 

 

 

[Rob2]

Thanks for the forum links. I did learn a few things, not a much which applies directly to my situation, but it is still helpful though. 

 

The cognitive issues really appeared with the lithium, and sleep quality doesn't really affect them much one way or another.

 

Oddly enough, I was feeling overall well when I was prescribed the lithium. I had experienced a mental health episode several months earlier, and the psychiatrist told me that I was at risk of having another if I didn't take a mood stabilizer for a couple of years or so. I have since learned that that is a widely followed protocol in psychiatry, and also that it was nonsense to apply it to my particular situation. I did not take stimulants other than coffee in the past, and usually not much of that too.

 

[Shep]

Are you able to exercise? That can help with cognitive functioning, although folks going through withdrawal aren't always able to do a lot of strenuous exercise. Walks in nature can be helpful. 

 

You may also want to add in some fish oil, which is good for cognitive functioning - King of supplements: Omega-3 fatty acids (fish oil)

 

How is your diet? Are you drinking plenty of water? 

 

[Rob2]

Yes, exercise is definitely tricky. A little bit is helpful, but overdoing it just a little will lead to several days of feeling unwell. Walking is fine though, and it does help.

 

My diet is overall good, though hydration is an issue. I have a health problem which means that even though I drink *a lot* of water every day (about 3-4 times more than the average person), I am still dehydrated. I have yet to find a solution to this, though I am supposed to see a specialist about it in the next few months.

 

Come to think of it, that condition could help explain why I had a poor reaction to the lithium, as you are supposed to be very well hydrated while taking that drug.

 

By the way I'm trying magnesium, and have yet to find the right form. Magnesium glycinate gave me wonderful deep sleep and made me feel more relaxed in a very welcome way, but after a couple days left me feeling sedated all day, which is no good. Magnesium oxide had the opposite effect, and seems to have energized me and diminished my sleep quality a bit. All this was while taking quite low doses for both... I will try taking the magnesium oxide in the morning instead to see if that changes things, but I think that I will try magnesium citrate next if that fails, as it seems well recommended here and in other places. This seems to be quite a powerful family of supplements! I also get the sense that whatever the lithium did to me has made me much more sensitive to this kind of thing than before.

[Shep]

23 hours ago, Rob2 said:

I have a health problem which means that even though I drink *a lot* of water every day (about 3-4 times more than the average person), I am still dehydrated. I have yet to find a solution to this, though I am supposed to see a specialist about it in the next few months.

 

Are you taking any medications for this? Have you been tested for diabetes? 

 

23 hours ago, Rob2 said:

By the way I'm trying magnesium, and have yet to find the right form. Magnesium glycinate gave me wonderful deep sleep and made me feel more relaxed in a very welcome way, but after a couple days left me feeling sedated all day, which is no good. Magnesium oxide had the opposite effect, and seems to have energized me and diminished my sleep quality a bit. All this was while taking quite low doses for both... I will try taking the magnesium oxide in the morning instead to see if that changes things, but I think that I will try magnesium citrate next if that fails, as it seems well recommended here and in other places. This seems to be quite a powerful family of supplements!

 

It may not just be the type of magnesium, but also the dose. If it's building up in your system and leaving you sedated, perhaps lower the dose and see how you do. 

[Rob2]

My doctor says I don't have diabetes. It's another type of condition, a kind of diabetes insipidus probably (very different from diabetes), though we don't know which yet.

 

After some experimenting, shifting the dose with the magnesium and trying different types doesn't seem to work. Oh well. I don't think that I'm deficient anyways.

 

I wonder if with mag glycinate, the effects I felt were due to the glycine it contains. I have read that on its own, glycine has a sedative effect, and interestingly, a French supplement company I know recommends not to use their glycine supplement if you have psychiatric issues or are taking psychiatric drugs (https://www.nutrimuscle.com/products/glycine-cristallisee). That being said, the dose of glycine they are working with is 3 to 6 grams a day (for athletes), which is several times higher than what you would get from taking 400mg of mag glycinate. Still, a sensitive nervous system could be getting sedated low doses.  

 

 

 

 

[Shep]

Many of us are simply too sensitive to take supplements during withdrawal, even the fish oil and magnesium, as is suggested here on this site. 

 

You may find adding in foods high in these types of supplements to be tolerable. For example, bone broth naturally has glycine in it. You're right that a lot of the caution may be dose-related. 

 

How are you feeling overall? Do you feel like you're gradually getting better, albeit with waves and windows along the way? 

[Rob2]

Hello Shep. Sorry for not responding sooner, I somehow missed your reply! I logged in to give a general update today and just saw it.

 

So it has now been a bit over 6 months since I stopped the lithium. A significant threshold in recovery was passed a couple weeks ago when I realized that for the first time since last May, when I started the lithium, I have been able to read normal intellectual writing (say a history book) with ease again. This is huge, as the impact on my intellectual ability by the drug was really bad. 

 

My normal cognitive ability has not come fully back though, and reading the kind of technical academic things I usually work on is still a bit too much, but this is nevertheless a very welcome development.

 

It can perhaps be of interest to note also that since about last October I have noticed that progress has come in increments of about 3 weeks. Every 3 weeks or so I have noticed being able to do something again that the lithium had taken way. For example, last October I was able to make an actually funny joke again (my attempts at humour were so bad under lithium and after that I had forbidden myself from even trying for a few months ). Towards late November, I could read news articles again without significant strain. In December, I began to feel more like myself again when talking with people, not having to focus on trying act non-lithiumized. Etc.

 

It really has been a gradual progress, so slow that most of the time I did not feel like I was improving, of course, until I realized that I had, in some small way. But the only setbacks have come from when I overdid it somehow, even slightly. Sadly, on that front things have not really improved, and I still have to cap my daily efforts at a very medium level at the risk of feeling bad for up to a week afterwards (no exercise more intense than walking, no serious work) . But otherwise, I have not had the common experience of windows and waves.

 

Nevertheless, even though I am still not back to normal health, where I was in July and am now is already night and day. So I have much to thank God for.

 

Otherwise, on the supplement front, I have added a B-50 and daily probiotics, with no issues. Apparently, much research shows that a healthier gut can significantly help the brain for various issues, so I'm assuming that that's a good bet to help with withdrawal related recovery too.

 

Warm regards to all!

 

 

 

[Shep]

@Rob2 Thank you for stopping by with an update. Very glad to read of your improvements. Over time, your ability to do more will improve without causing setbacks. 

 

Please stop by over the coming weeks and continue to let us know how you're doing. 

[Happy2Heal]

On 12/4/2022 at 5:10 AM, Rob2 said:

It's another type of condition, a kind of diabetes insipidus probably (very different from diabetes), though we don't know which yet.

 

 

Hi

I was on lithium for over 10 yrs. I did go off it cold turkey one time and I spent a year being very sick. That did not change until I went back on the lithium. 
I don't think my withdrawal history would be of my use to you but I would urge you to perhaps see an endocrinologist

 

I was just diagnosed with nephrogenic diabetes inspidus- caused by long term lithium use.  It appears, from what I have read, that having this particular kind of kidney damage is unusual in anyone who was not on the drug for at least 10 yrs but there was one case mentioned after 7 yrs on the drug, so hopefully you've avoiding this since you were on for such a short period of time. 

 

however there is another condition that can cause the symptoms of polyuria and polydipsia (and that can also be related to lithium use- but you don't need to have EVER taken lithium to get this)  and that is hyperparathyroidism.

The parathyroid glands regulate calcium in your body. there are 4 of them under your more familiar thyroid gland

 

Usually you will have a high level of serum calcium with this condition, but NOT always- you need to have your parathyroid hormone checked.

If your calcium IS high, you should INSIST on it.

Testing parathryoid hormome (PTH) is not done routinely.

 

 

I am seeing an endocrinologist to determine what kind of hyperparathyroidism I have (there are a couple of different types) He wrote in my notes that lithium causes enlargement on the parathyroids 😕

 

 

you might want to ask your dr to look into this as a possible explanation for some of your issues

symptoms of hyperparathyroidism include cognitive issues, trouble sleeping and lots more, do an online search for more info

 

good luck

 

[Rob2]

@Shep Thank you for the encouragement! Yes, I will keep posting updates every so often, especially since there are so few testimonies out there on this kind of difficult withdrawal with lithium. 

 

@Happy2Heal Thank you very much for the suggestion! Yes, I think that it is a good idea to check if the lithium did not create any physical issues... I only took it for 9 weeks, but two months is enough to create problems in some cases, as lithium can so easily be toxic.

[julval]

On 11/10/2022 at 5:56 AM, Rob2 said:

@Rob2

thank you so much for sharing your journey leaving lithium—- I was prescribed 1200 mg and I have been putting it down currently I am in 450 mg… that withdrawal is brutal but I keep going. My question to you is if you have written anything in particular about this, you said you write academically, and my concern is that I am a reporter. I have been unable to work for the last four years. Unable to write has been a challenge and I want to understand the process because you said you got it back.

I hope you’re fully recovered. Your case is a great hope for me.

Jul

——

 

On 11/10/2022 at 5:56 AM, Rob2 said:

Hello to all,

 

Beginning on May 8th 2022 I was put on lithium carbonate at 600 mg. After about ten days I began to feel some debilitating side effects. These included being very slowed down cognitively, concentration and memory issues, and feeling exhausted after pushing myself to do a fraction of my usual amount of work. Two weeks in, I actually felt quite ill for about four days. During that time I could not even focus enough to drive a car properly and I felt completely drugged. This passed, though, but the other side effects stayed. 

 

A blood test done on May 25th showed lithium blood levels of 0,4 mmol/l, and on June 2nd the psychiatrist upped me to 800mg to get me into the therapeutic range. This just made the side effects worse. 

 

As the psychiatrist was not making sense of my symptoms I went to see my GP for help. He found no physical symptoms of toxicity (shaking hands, etc.), but he referred me to another psychiatrist to get a second opinion. (If it is useful, I can add that the only straight-up physical symptom I ever displayed was a friend noticing that I had become physically bright red after a two hour academic seminar I was struggling to stay focused in.)

 

The second psychiatrist seemed a little worried, but not a lot, and told me to go back down to 600mg of lithium, which I did on June 14th. Still, I did not feel that what he told me was completely cogent either, which prompted me to get an online appointment with a psychiatrist specialized in de-prescribing. This psychiatrist was *much* clearer than the others and encouraged me to taper down completely over a month. So I progressively went from 800 mg to zero from June 14th to July 13th 2022, following the recommended steps of dose reduction.

 

The tapering went well and the only symptom I experienced was unusual fatigue when bringing the dose down for a day or two. Yet, when I finished the taper, the side effects had not improved very much.

 

Now it has now been almost four months and the side effects have only improved partially. On the bright side, I no longer feel like a zombie, but I am not entirely back to myself either. My social skills and instincts still feel off, for example. But what is very problematic is that my intellectual abilities have not returned enough to get back to work. I am in an academic field which requires a very high level of concentration, and I still feel out of my depth when attempting what should be normal for me. I am also only able to get a fraction of my normal quantity of work done, even when attempting easier things. I am currently on a medical leave of absence because of this. Another symptom I can add is that I react poorly to any kind of intensity while exercising, usually feeling unusually tired/off for a couple days afterwards.

 

What I am seeking is an explanation of what happened with the lithium, so as to be able to find a prognosis. One psychiatrists told me that I am experiencing a difficult withdrawal and that all should be normal in a matter of months. Another wondered if I experienced a form of lithium toxicity, which can cause long term damage. But, to be honest, neither seemed very assured in what they were saying, nor to have much knowledge on lithium withdrawal. I am still seeking a comptent medical professional to guide me, but this is a slow process.

 

The information I have found while doing research has sadly been quite confusing, and even contradictory sometimes. I would be grateful for any insight that this forum could provide. Simply being able to name what is going on with me would be a huge relief, as well as getting some sense on what kind of outcome I can hope for.  

 

Thanks for any insight you might be able to provide!

Rob thank you for sharing this. Even though this was exchange some time ago it helps me bc I’m leaving lithium and I am 

[Rob2]

@julval Hello Jul,

 

I am sorry to hear that lithium has been such a difficult experience for you too, and also that you are going through a difficult lithium withdrawal. But I am glad that you have found my testimony helpful. 

 

I have not written anything about this, though maybe I might one day!

 

Though I can share that something that has become clear in my research into recovery after lithium is that the process varies tremendously between different people. For some it is fast, while for others it can be a matter of months, or more. I found one testimony of a person saying it took two months for them to get their mental clarity back, and another a year and half. I've also found testimonies of people who said it took a few days or weeks, though these are people who tolerated the drug very well. A psychiatrist knowledgeable in drug withdrawal told me that the most precise you can really say is that the process of recovery after lithium generally takes "some months."

 

My general sense though, is that most people do eventually recover most of their normal cognitive ability. I have not yet come across testimonies of people who retained serious long term cognitive issues years after stopping lithium, with of course the exception being people who experienced significant toxicity – but that is a specific case. 

 

Personally, I am not yet fully recovered, but things are moving in that direction in a very hopeful way. As I wrote in an earlier post, it has so far been slow but steady kind of realizing every few weeks "hey I can do that again!"

 

I have also been following most of basic the advice you can find on this forum and elsewhere, and my clear sense is that it does help the healing (eating well and taking some supplements, trying to get good sleep, regular very light exercise like walking, avoiding unnecessary stress, staying active to the extent that you can without overdoing it, etc.).

 

Take care! 

[Rob2]

Hello again !

 

I am posting an update which contains some very good news! 

 

First of all, since my last post about six weeks ago my cognitive abilities have improved to the point where I have been able to return to work on my usual academic topics, though net yet with my usual intensity. This is really incredible though, as I am effectively getting my life back. I do not quite feel back to normal, but if I had to put a percentage on it, I would say I am somewhere between 90 and 95% better on that front.

 

I expect things to keep improving, as they have the past 9 months, slowly but surely.

 

Second of all, and this may be somewhat surprising to some, and possibly not taken seriously by others, but I came to the realisation that the fatigue and recovery issues I was experiencing and which had not improved at all in 9 months, were in fact psychosomatic in origin. To be very clear what I mean by this is not that they were not real symptoms, but rather that the root cause behind them was psychological. 

 

I was able to spot this as I have dealt with psychosomatic issues in the past (back pain, tendonitis, and a bout of CFS when I was young), and had come across a very knowledgable doctor who knew how to treat them. If it is useful to anyone, I would be very happy to share my experience in this regard, as I know that helpful information on it can be hard to come across (I would definitely recommend "Healing Back Pain" by Dr. John Sarno, which contrary to what the title suggests gives a general introduction to psychosomatic illnesses and healing from them, and not just back pain).  

 

Thanks to my past experience, once I finally realized that the fatigue and recovery issues were psychosomatic (after quite a long process of investigation, involving getting various blood tests to rule other things out, etc.), I was able to vastly improve them overnight. I literally returned to exercise at the gym the very next day, with no problems whatsoever. 

 

I am not surprised that I developed such an issue alongside the problems with the lithium, as psychosomatic symptoms often appear in the wake of other health problems (back pain appearing after an accident, etc.), to camouflage them from our conscious mind. 

 

In fact, a psychiatrist had suggested to me a couple months ago that part of my issues were psychosomatic, but I could not see it then as I could not at all make sense of the cognitive symptoms, which were still quite bad at the time, in that way. But it turns out that he was right regarding the fatigue and recovery issues. It's too bad he did not have the patience to help me figure that out, as that could have saved me a few months of having the symptoms, but at least I eventually got it on my own. 

 

Anyways, to sum things up, I now have my energy and most, though not yet all, of my cognitive abilities back. This really is a wonderful development.

 

[Shep]

Because you're feeling better, I added our cheerful "here comes the sun" symbol ☼ to the title of your Intro topic, to show you're recovering.

 

Please continue to let us know how you're doing. I hope you will add your story to our Recovery Success Stories eventually!

 

Please see this topic:  How to write your success story

[Rob2]

Yes, once things are back to normal, or at least a new normal, I will definitely post a Recovery Success Story! 

 

Right now I am back to doing my usual work with the leftover cognitive symptoms, which is quite challenging, but it is definitely a much better place than I was a month ago. I can also feel the symptoms still improving as the weeks go by. For some reason, my reading abilities are recovering faster than my writing abilities, though I can feel writing getting progressively less awkward as the weeks go by, even though there is still a ways to go.

 

It has really felt, over the past few months, like cognitive skills are each stored in their own little corner of the brain, and that as the brain progressively heals, I am one by one being able to access them again. This is quite interesting, and encouraging!

 

I remember David Healy mentioning someone who reported sudden and significant cognitive improvements 4 years after a bad antidepressant withdrawal. The nervous system can really heal for a long time.

 

Kind regards to all,

Rob

[julval]

Rob thank you for sharing your story that gives me hope.

I come from a similar background and I have many insecurities related to memory loss and lack of concentration while reading…only time will tell what the future holds. 
please do keep us posted—

Jul

 

—-

Started w Clonazepam 

2020-September

Jan 2021 lithium carbonate (Theralite) 1200 mg daily until nov 2022 that I started the tampering process

Decreasing by a quarter of a pill. Currently on 375 mg/ cutting 75 mg each 30 days or longer as needed

I added natural options to this as follows

Ashawanda, melatonine, magnesium and omega 3. GABA-Milk thistle seeds and blue Espiruline. Incorporating oronate lithium 5 mg

Exercising 3 days a week. Never had any contact w psychiatry before. 1 single episode-

No sugar-no alcohol.

[Rob2]

@julval Yes, I will definitely keep posting! 

 

If it useful, since my post last month I can say that I have seen some more slight improvements. Specifically, my reading has gotten a bit better, and my writing, which was still extremely awkward still a month ago, is now significantly less so. Trying to write academic prose last month kind of felt like trying to play the piano with my feet or something. It was possible, but only with extreme focus and I could forget about doing sophisticated stuff. For the past week or so, I have noticed that some sentences are coming easier, and even whole paragraphs.

 

I am still below my normal abilities, but things are still improving, and more or less at the same rate as before – very slight improvements noticed every 2-3 weeks or so.

 

Also if it is helpful, all of my research as well as my current experience seem to agree that recovery from cognitive difficulties caused by lithium during normal use is usually quite good. It can also be quite fast for some people, though for others, like myself, it can take a while. Hang in there! 

 

 

[julval]

Rob2

thank you so much for your detailed reply. I am going to try and exercise patience. I cannot currently work so that’s thanks to psychiatry— How do you explain to a potential employer the gap of for years between jobs…. Few people understands what we’re going through.

I am glad that you’re fully  recovering. It was great to see your update.

jul

 

——

Started w Clonazepam 

2020-September

Jan 2021 lithium carbonate (Theralite) 1200 mg daily until nov 2022 that I started the tampering process

Decreasing by a quarter of a pill. Currently on 375 mg

I added natural options to this as follows

Ashawanda, melatonine, magnesium and omega 3. GABA-Milk thistle seeds and blue Espiruline. Incorporating oronate lithium 5 mg

Exercising 3 days a week. Never had any contact w psychiatry before. 1 single episode-

No sugar-no alcohol.

[Rob2]

Hello to all,

 

Sorry for the long silence on this topic! Things have been a bit tricky recently. After few months of things continually improving, I hit a couple obstacles which have made things more complex.

 

To sum it up, in May, allergy season hit me very hard this year. I first turned towards supplements and natural remedies such a taking vitamin C, etc., which worked a bit. But I eventually had the idea of taking a loratadine pill (aka Claritin in the US) split in half, which is a drug that sedates me quite badly at the normal full dose of 10mg. And this worked like a charm. At 5mg I was minimally sedated, and so it did not interfere with work, but it also virtually took away 100% of the allergy symptoms.

 

I was on this dose for 3 weeks, and when allergy season began to end, I stopped cold turkey, as it is normally safe to do so. But then I immediately experienced extremely unusual hypomania for a full week. I was having a rebound effect. The week after that I felt unusually low, but that is normal after several days of hypomania. And while I almost stabilized myself at that point, my sleep suddenly began to deteriorate out of nowhere and at the end of a third week I began to feel a more worrying, deeper, kind of hypomania. 

 

At this point, feeling that something more serious could be starting, I decided to hit the brakes and go back on the loratadine. But to settle my system in this state, I had to up the dose (I also used Camomille, Passionflower and Skullcap teas, which were helpful). I went up to 20mg, but as this gave me very odd nightmares, I went back down to 15mg, which ended up working.

 

Once things had been fully stable for a several days more, I started to diminish the dose quickly to avoid getting my system used to the 15mg, but it was too late. Going from 15mg to 10mg over a few days, the initial rebound hypomania started again. So I went back on the 15mg, and things eventually calmed down again. It is at this point that I realized that this was a serious issue, and asked for help on another topic (here: https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/505-allergies-sneezing-stuffed-up-nose-sinus-antihistamines-and-what-to-use-for-allergy-relief/?do=findComment&comment=650856).

 

The advice I received was useful, and I began to taper the loratadine. I did a 10% reduction a week ago, and things have been ok since then. I have had some strange anxiety-like symptoms, but they could also be due to the fact that I have cut sugar from my diet recently, which has generated some anxiety. I will give it a bit more time and then try another 10% reduction, and at that point I feel I should be able to tell how fast I can go. I guess you really have to be careful with antihistamines when your nervous system is still fragile, as histamine is a neurostransmitter.

 

Maybe it's useful to add that I have not had any of the normal loradatine withdrawal symptoms (headaches, nausea, dizziness, fatigue, etc.), which seems to mean that my system is not properly addicted to it. The plausible cause of what I am experiencing is my system's sensitivity due to the lithium withdrawal, as well as whatever damage the psychiatric episode I had a bit under two years ago did (I suspect it left me with a kind of mood disorder, but psychiatry has not been very helpful in clarifying that so far).

 

The main downside to all of this is that I am now sedated 24/7 again, so I have had to virtually halt my work again. But thankfully it is the summer, and I only really need to get back to something approaching full performance when the academic year starts mid September. And by that time, I should be down to a significantly less sedating dose. 

 

I hope to have some better news with my next update!

 

[Shep]

18 hours ago, Rob2 said:

At this point, feeling that something more serious could be starting, I decided to hit the brakes and go back on the loratadine. But to settle my system in this state, I had to up the dose (I also used Camomille, Passionflower and Skullcap teas, which were helpful). I went up to 20mg, but as this gave me very odd nightmares, I went back down to 15mg, which ended up working.

 

Rob, thanks for such a detailed account of your experience. I just want to mention that the teas you were using may have been helpful because of their effect on GABA (similar to a benzo) and to caution against adding in too many things. Some of the effects may have been from the loratadine, but things like nightmares or any other odd or troublesome issues may have been the teas or a combination of the teas and the loratadine. 

 

19 hours ago, Rob2 said:

Maybe it's useful to add that I have not had any of the normal loradatine withdrawal symptoms (headaches, nausea, dizziness, fatigue, etc.), which seems to mean that my system is not properly addicted to it. The plausible cause of what I am experiencing is my system's sensitivity due to the lithium withdrawal, as well as whatever damage the psychiatric episode I had a bit under two years ago did (I suspect it left me with a kind of mood disorder, but psychiatry has not been very helpful in clarifying that so far).

 

The main downside to all of this is that I am now sedated 24/7 again, so I have had to virtually halt my work again. But thankfully it is the summer, and I only really need to get back to something approaching full performance when the academic year starts mid September. And by that time, I should be down to a significantly less sedating dose. 

 

I hope to have some better news with my next update!

 

I'm sorry you were hit so severely by this, but glad to read it came at a good time in your work / school life. 

 

Hopefully, you'll be back to a good baseline soon. 

 

[Rob2]

Thank you @Shep for the kind words! Yes, medicinal teas can definitely be a double-edged sword and need to be used with caution. I am currently planning on tapering them down once I am clearer on how the loratadine taper is going, so probably in a few days. I have had no significant symptoms since I last wrote, so things seem to be going well.

 

I will probably bring the teas down something like 25% a week at that point, since they are not nearly as powerful as a drug. Though I am open to suggestions! Cutting cold turkey doesn't seem like a good idea, as they are having a significant effect.

[Shep]

12 hours ago, Rob2 said:

I am currently planning on tapering them down once I am clearer on how the loratadine taper is going, so probably in a few days. I have had no significant symptoms since I last wrote, so things seem to be going well.

 

I will probably bring the teas down something like 25% a week at that point, since they are not nearly as powerful as a drug. Though I am open to suggestions! Cutting cold turkey doesn't seem like a good idea, as they are having a significant effect.

 

I like the way you're thinking here - very intentional and mindful. If I want just a bit of the effect of a certain tea, I usually let it steep for less time so it's not as strong. But tapering by drinking less of the tea is also a good way to get off it. 

 

Please let us know how you do. If 25% a week is too fast, you could reduce the taper rate or hold the "dose" longer. 

[Rob2]

Hello!

 

Sorry for the long gap in posting. The summer was a bit complicated and things kept getting in the way.

 

But to perhaps make a long story short, a couple very intense stressors, one in July and one in August, made me unstable for a couple weeks each time and so I had to put the loratadine tapering on hold for about a month in total. 

 

It is somewhat ironic that the I had to pause tapering the drug that was making me unstable because it was making me unstable (I could handle such stressors normally), but that's life sometimes.

 

Thankfully, the loratadine taper has resumed problem free since late August and it has been going very well. The fastest I have been able to go which gives me zero symptoms is 5% every 5 days. Before that I was going at 10% every 10 days, but I would then have 2-3 days with mild withdrawal symptoms (mostly hypomanic impulses) which were manageable but stressful, and then 7-8 days of nothing. This felt a bit like a roller coaster, though 5% every 5 days has been totally smooth. 

 

Between 15mg and 10mg the symptoms got very noticeably better with every 1mg drop, and below 10 mg a shift happened where it has become almost possible to ignore them most of them time. I am now down to 8.46mg and feel just a bit slower and fuzzier than normal.

 

Also, last week I finished tapering the herbal teas. That also went well. I had dropped 25% every 8 days, and I stopped when I got to a dose with virtually no therapeutic effect (about a third of the original dose). This went well, and in fact an anxiety which had crept in about a month into the taper significantly diminished when I stopped the teas. So it seems that I was getting some adverse effects from them. 

 

Finally, now that the loratadine is not clouding my mind so much any more, some good news is that I can feel that my brain has continued to heal from the lithium through all this. In effect, when doing some academic work in some respects I feel sharper than I have felt since before taking it. Reading feels easier in particular.

 

So things have been a bit challenging, but the overall direction feels positive!

 

 

[manymoretodays]

Yay!  And thanks for sharing your experience with the loratadine taper.

 

Do you feel at that 100% healed from the Lithium and taper?

90-95% is pretty awesome too I think.

[Rob2]

Hi @manymoretodays!

 

So my leftover adverse effects from lithium have definitely improved since I wrote they were 90-95% better in March, though due to the loratadine side effects it is difficult to say precisely how much.

 

What is clear though is that I do not feel any noticeable impediments reading and writing, which were huge problems the lithium had created. Just to illustrate, a month after I had stopped the lithium I could not follow something like an easy history book. Now, I am reading academic articles again smoothly. 

 

But the fatigue from repeated mood episodes this summer and the remaining side effects of the loratadine (including increased mood instability in day to day life, which is the worst one and I forgot to mention in my last post) mean that I really don't feel close to 100%.

 

I will definitely remember to give an update on this once things are clearer – but the lithium recovery is now clearly going very well, which is something to be very thankful for. In fact, I did not expect to recover as much as I have when things were at their worst!

 

On another topic, I am currently considering accelerating my loratadine taper a little bit. Might you might have any thoughts on that?