Gijoeman: Need Remeron help

[Gijoeman]

Been off 20mg paxil since 5/5/11. Horrific withdrawal. Started 15mg Remeron end of July 2011. Have been tapering 1mg every two weeks since April 2012. Currently at 4.5mg. Having a terrible time with paxil withdrawal. Typical up and down times, wave patterns. Not many good times at all. Wondering if anyone has gotten off remeron and if my troubles are most likely paxil issues or can remeron at this low dosage be this difficult to get off of. How slow should I go from 5mg down?

[Skyler]

Been off 20mg paxil since 5/5/11. Horrific withdrawal. Started 15mg Remeron end of July 2011. Have been tapering 1mg every two weeks since April 2012. Currently at 4.5mg. Having a terrible time with paxil withdrawal. Typical up and down times, wave patterns. Not many good times at all. Wondering if anyone has gotten off remeron and if my troubles are most likely paxil issues or can remeron at this low dosage be this difficult to get off of. How slow should I go from 5mg down?

 

Hi GI.. Remeron is causing it's own load of withdrawal symptoms, and you tapered both ADs very fast. We recommend cutting 10% off each successive dose with a one month hold for each cut. Alto, our admin will be checking in soon to give you her expert advice, but for now let me welcome you to the forum. You will get good advice here and be able to roll back the miserable withdrawal symptoms you are experiencing.

 

Schuyler

[Gijoeman]

Thanks for the reply. I am a bit stubborn as I know the way to do this I just find the process so frustrating. By the time I found out how slow I should go with paxil I had been off 5 months and already on remeron for relief (thanks pdoc, one and only time I ever went to a pdoc), but I was desparate. So, I was at 5mg of remeron for 2 weeks. I was not feeling terrible but when sleep issues started 3 days after dropping to 4mg I should have known better. I was in denial but I did updose to 4.5mg. I am wondering if I should just updose to 5mg and hold there for a while until I feel better. I was at 5mg for two weeks. Could all these drops over the last 4 months just be catching up to me know? I tried this back in November and when I got under 5mg the trouble started. But back then I wasn't weighing so I could have been taking anywhere from 3 to 6mg. Now I weigh. Should I slow down to maybe 5% drops at this point?

 

The thing is that I still feel like crap(a huge understatement) from paxil withdrawal and I know that the recovery from that alone will be years in the making. I have not taken a xanax since july of 2011 and only took it during the few weeks leading up to remeron use. I truly don't believe in adding drug after drug. Currently I take remeron and some supplements (fish oil, mag citrate, vit b,c,d,e and CoQ10). Wondering if I should stop all of these as well. I can't imagine at the doses I am taking they are doing any harm.

[dalsaan]

Hi gijoeman

 

I think your instincts are right. I would hold at 5 for a while, maybe a month or two and give you and your nervous system a break. Then when you are ready drop more slowly 10 percent or less with a month between drops

 

I am coming off remeron. I have converted the tablets to liquid at a compound chemist so I can do small precise decreases. Am currently on 8 ml

 

I understand your frustration but the key thing is to get off the drugs well rather than quickly. As your Paxil experience has told you getting off completely is not necessarily the end of the story. If you go too fast you can have issues well after your last dose.

 

Go slow, be gentle on yourself

 

Good luck

 

Dalsaan

[Gijoeman]

Hi gijoeman

 

I think your instincts are right. I would hold at 5 for a while, maybe a month or two and give you and your nervous system a break. Then when you are ready drop more slowly 10 percent or less with a month between drops

 

I am coming off remeron. I have converted the tablets to liquid at a compound chemist so I can do small precise decreases. Am currently on 8 ml

 

I understand your frustration but the key thing is to get off the drugs well rather than quickly. As your Paxil experience has told you getting off completely is not necessarily the end of the story. If you go too fast you can have issues well after your last dose.

 

Go slow, be gentle on yourself

 

Good luck

 

Dalsaan

 

Hey dalsaan, you were on remeron for a long time. What type of side effects to you have from it. I have tinnitus that I don't think is from the paxil. It didn't start until I was off paxil for about 10 months. I have heard the remeron can cause this. I know I am still in major paxil withdrawal because of the cold turkey and others' who have recovered telling me their experiences. I just wonder how much the remeron is actually making it worse. I know the last time I got below 5mg I had big trouble and ended up back at 15 mg. I think I will go back to 5mg and hold for a couple of weeks and the decided. It is very tricky as I always feel better in the evenings and the idea of taking another dose is undesireable. I have actually skipped my dose (sometimes forgetting and other times to see how I would react. I always end up waking at 2 or 3 am and taking it. Do you think I should go even slower then 10% at this point?

[Altostrata]

Hello, gijoeman. Welcome to our community.

 

Schuyler and dalsaan gave good advice.

 

I understand your frustration at having to deal with adverse effects of these drugs.

 

It's not fair we have these problems, but we do, and we have to be realistic about taking care of ourselves.

 

Did Remeron stop your Paxil withdrawal symptoms?

 

If you feel better at 5mg, yes, you should updose and hold at 5mg. Don't do any more experiments in skipping doses!

 

Yes, too-fast tapering can cause tinnitus.

[Gijoeman]

Hello, gijoeman. Welcome to our community.

 

Schuyler and dalsaan gave good advice.

 

I understand your frustration at having to deal with adverse effects of these drugs.

 

It's not fair we have these problems, but we do, and we have to be realistic about taking care of ourselves.

 

Did Remeron stop your Paxil withdrawal symptoms?

 

If you feel better at 5mg, yes, you should updose and hold at 5mg. Don't do any more experiments in skipping doses!

 

Yes, too-fast tapering can cause tinnitus.

 

I never skipped doses. I just tapered too fast. I tried to drop from 5 to 4mg after two weeks. I had been dropping 1mg every two weeks since at 10mg. I made a decision to attribute all my symptoms to Paxil cold turkey since everything I was experiencing I had heard was also problems people had with Paxil withdrawal. But the tinnitus didn't start until about 10 months post Paxil. I will slow it down for sure. I just thought it was the remeron in general that was causing the tinnitus. I never would have thought the taper speed could cause it. That's a good way for me to measure the speed by paying attention to the ear pressure issue.

 

No the remeron didn't stop the Paxil withdrawal. But keep in mind I went off Paxil in May of 2011. I was fine for two months other then some depression that started when I reduced from 20 to 10mg a year earlier. In July of 2011 it all came crashing down, anxiety, depression and worst of all sleepless nights, panic attacks and rapid weight loss. I knew nothing so I went to a pdoc for the first time ever (I was prescribed Paxil for so called night terrors back in 1998 by my GP) and the pdoc prescribed remeron 30mg for sleep and depression. After 2 months I realized it would never touch the depression and I having been trying to get off ever since. It did immediately help with sleep though. Back then I was desparate and thought I could fight the symptoms as long as I could sleep. I then found out more then I ever wanted to know about this process.

 

I know what is ahead of me for the protected Paxil withdrawal. But I don't feel like I will ever truly start healing until I get off remeron. So you say tapering too fast can cause the ear issues? I just figured it was a side effect of the remeron in general. I guess common sense doesn't apply here.

 

Thanks.

[dalsaan]

Hi gijoeman

 

I didn't really have a lot of symptoms on remeron except weight gain. I don't think it did much for my depression, it did help me sleep for a while but that has warn off and now I think it has interfered with my capacity for sleep. I get about 3 hours and am exhausted

 

Dalsaan

[Skyler]

I never skipped doses. I just tapered too fast. I tried to drop from 5 to 4mg after two weeks. I had been dropping 1mg every two weeks since at 10mg. I made a decision to attribute all my symptoms to Paxil cold turkey since everything I was experiencing I had heard was also problems people had with Paxil withdrawal. But the tinnitus didn't start until about 10 months post Paxil. I will slow it down for sure. I just thought it was the remeron in general that was causing the tinnitus. I never would have thought the taper speed could cause it. That's a good way for me to measure the speed by paying attention to the ear pressure issue.

I know what is ahead of me for the protected Paxil withdrawal. But I don't feel like I will ever truly start healing until I get off remeron. So you say tapering too fast can cause the ear issues? I just figured it was a side effect of the remeron in general. I guess common sense doesn't apply here.

 

Thanks.

 

I have tinnitus, and it did not start until I took a big drop in Lyrica (not an AD, but the MO is the same). You will heal as you continue to taper slowly. The damage is/was not so much the presence of an AD in your system as the effect on your neuroceptors. This reversal is the healing, and will proceed at a pace your system can accommodate. Tapering too fast causes this damage to get worse than it otherwise might be. Your system is already neurosensitized (damaged) by tapering too fast, but this will resolve over time. For now, you need to avoid acquiring yet more symptoms.

[Altostrata]

I was fine for two months other then some depression that started when I reduced from 20 to 10mg a year earlier. In July of 2011 it all came crashing down, anxiety, depression and worst of all sleepless nights, panic attacks and rapid weight loss.

Yep, sounds like you've had Paxil withdrawal syndrome since reducing from 20mg to 10mg.

 

Sleep is very important in recovering from Paxil withdrawal syndrome, or any withdrawal syndrome. If 5mg Remeron helps, don't rock the boat for a long while, maybe several months or longer.

 

Let your brain experience some stability. It will help it adjust from the Paxil damage and the upset from Remeron changes. Then you can very, very slowly go off Remeron.

 

The depression may arise from withdrawal syndrome, too. See our Symptoms and Self-care section for tips to manage depression and other symptoms.

 

Withdrawal syndrome can sensitize or destabilize the autonomic nervous system. Withdrawal symptoms such as tinnitus can arise from this.

[Gijoeman]

I was fine for two months other then some depression that started when I reduced from 20 to 10mg a year earlier. In July of 2011 it all came crashing down, anxiety, depression and worst of all sleepless nights, panic attacks and rapid weight loss.

Yep, sounds like you've had Paxil withdrawal syndrome since reducing from 20mg to 10mg.

 

Sleep is very important in recovering from Paxil withdrawal syndrome, or any withdrawal syndrome. If 5mg Remeron helps, don't rock the boat for a long while, maybe several months or longer.

 

Let your brain experience some stability. It will help it adjust from the Paxil damage and the upset from Remeron changes. Then you can very, very slowly go off Remeron.

 

The depression may arise from withdrawal syndrome, too. See our Symptoms and Self-care section for tips to manage depression and other symptoms.

 

Withdrawal syndrome can sensitize or destabilize the autonomic nervous system. Withdrawal symptoms such as tinnitus can arise from this.

 

Do you think I can still be healing from Paxil withdrawal while still taking remeron. I have been told that my brain is still being altered and I can't truly heal until I am off all of the meds. The 5mg does help with sleep as remeron is very sedating at the lower doses. Remeron has never helped with any of the paxil withdrawal issues.

[Skyler]

Do you think I can still be healing from Paxil withdrawal while still taking remeron. I have been told that my brain is still being altered and I can't truly heal until I am off all of the meds. The 5mg does help with sleep as remeron is very sedating at the lower doses. Remeron has never helped with any of the paxil withdrawal issues.

 

Your brain is still being altered, but you are also healing. The remeron does not act in quite the same way as the paxil, which is why it did not take all the withdrawal symptoms away. Your nervous system would heal more slowly if you abruptly stopped taking the remeron because your neuroceptors need time to upregulate.

[Gijoeman]

 

Do you think I can still be healing from Paxil withdrawal while still taking remeron. I have been told that my brain is still being altered and I can't truly heal until I am off all of the meds. The 5mg does help with sleep as remeron is very sedating at the lower doses. Remeron has never helped with any of the paxil withdrawal issues.

 

Your brain is still being altered, but you are also healing. The remeron does not act in quite the same way as the paxil, which is why it did not take all the withdrawal symptoms away. Your nervous system would heal more slowly if you abruptly stopped taking the remeron because your neuroceptors need time to upregulate.

 

Thanks, I've managed to convince myself that remeron is causing more harm and that it will hinder my paxil recovery. My symptoms are right in line with many others I have discussed this with. I was better over the summer. Better being defined by not crying everyday or not wanting to die. The morning anxiety is the worst. The pattern is that I feel better after 6pm and then feel horrible upon waking. The whole day is just an exercise to try to do anything. I do have to work and that is of course suffering. I have all of life's stressors compounded by never feeling positive about anything along with gut wrenching anxiety. By the way, I started paxil for a minor sleep issue. I was told back in 1998 by a GP that it was not addictive and I could stop any time. When I tried to stop in 2004 and 2008 my GP told me, after I had missed 3 days, that my jittery ways proves I needed to be on it. Never did she suggest I was addicted to it and this was withdrawal. I have no idea how I was able to stop at 10mg in 2011. I didn't learn about reinstating and going slow until I was 5 months off. I didn't want that poison in my body anymore. I also believe I had hit tolerance as prior to reducing to 10mg I had spent a year being awake for 2 to 3 hours a night. Since I started taking it for sleep disturbances (nightmares that woke me up anxious) I assumed it wasn't working so I wanted off. My GP suggested I "double the dose" which I tried 40mg for 2 days and felt like I had cotten stuffed in my head.

 

Do people usually get very gradually better or do they find they suddenly feel better? I will be 16 months off paxil on Sept 5th. The depression and anxiety are crippling. I never experienced anxiety and depression like this before. I never sought meds for either of these conditions although I suppose the sleep issues were a sign of anxiety.

 

Thanks...

[Skyler]

I didn't want that poison in my body anymore. I also believe I had hit tolerance as prior to reducing to 10mg I had spent a year being awake for 2 to 3 hours a night. Since I started taking it for sleep disturbances (nightmares that woke me up anxious) I assumed it wasn't working so I wanted off. My GP suggested I "double the dose" which I tried 40mg for 2 days and felt like I had cotten stuffed in my head.

 

Do people usually get very gradually better or do they find they suddenly feel better? I will be 16 months off paxil on Sept 5th. The depression and anxiety are crippling. I never experienced anxiety and depression like this before. I never sought meds for either of these conditions although I suppose the sleep issues were a sign of anxiety.

 

Thanks...

 

Unfortunately, the poison is in your body as long as your nervous system acts like it is. The fact you don't take the med anymore is incidental. See the two paragraph's I cut and pasted below.

 

"The central nervous system (CNS) adapts to the presence of psychoactive drugs. Such adaptation commonly involves the readjustment of neuroreceptors to compensate for the acute pharmacological action of the medication. Desired drug effects may be mediated by such compensatory changes which may explain the delayed onset of therapeutic effect of antidepressants. This adaptation theory also explains why withdrawal symptoms and signs can occur on the discontinuation of such medications as clearance of drug can occur at a rate faster than the brain can readjust to the absence of medication. Hence, pharmacodynamic and pharmacokinetic factors contribute to the risk of a withdrawal syndrome. ...

 

There is speculation concerning the possibility of a temporary deficiency of synaptic serotonin with abrupt withdrawal of an SSRI. This deficiency is compounded by the fact that down-regulated receptors will remain in their relatively hypoactive state for days to weeks. This is believed to result in antidepressant discontinuation syndrome directly or indirectly via downstream effects on other neurotransmitter systems (e.g., norepinephrine, dopamine, and g-aminobutyric acid) implicated in depressive and anxiety disorders."

 

In some the down regulation takes months or years to reverse. But reverse it does in the vast majority of cases.

 

edit 6:55 PM

[Gijoeman]

I didn't want that poison in my body anymore. I also believe I had hit tolerance as prior to reducing to 10mg I had spent a year being awake for 2 to 3 hours a night. Since I started taking it for sleep disturbances (nightmares that woke me up anxious) I assumed it wasn't working so I wanted off. My GP suggested I "double the dose" which I tried 40mg for 2 days and felt like I had cotten stuffed in my head.

 

Do people usually get very gradually better or do they find they suddenly feel better? I will be 16 months off paxil on Sept 5th. The depression and anxiety are crippling. I never experienced anxiety and depression like this before. I never sought meds for either of these conditions although I suppose the sleep issues were a sign of anxiety.

 

Thanks...

 

Unfortunately, the poison is in your body as long as your nervous system acts like it is. The fact you don't take the med anymore is incidental. See the two paragraph's I cut and pasted below.

 

"The central nervous system (CNS) adapts to the presence of psychoactive drugs. Such adaptation commonly involves the readjustment of neuroreceptors to compensate for the acute pharmacological action of the medication. Desired drug effects may be mediated by such compensatory changes which may explain the delayed onset of therapeutic effect of antidepressants. This adaptation theory also explains why withdrawal symptoms and signs can occur on the discontinuation of such medications as clearance of drug can occur at a rate faster than the brain can readjust to the absence of medication. Hence, pharmacodynamic and pharmacokinetic factors contribute to the risk of a withdrawal syndrome. ...

 

There is speculation concerning the possibility of a temporary deficiency of synaptic serotonin with abrupt withdrawal of an SSRI. This deficiency is compounded by the fact that down-regulated receptors will remain in their relatively hypoactive state for days to weeks. This is believed to result in antidepressant discontinuation syndrome directly or indirectly via downstream effects on other neurotransmitter systems (e.g., norepinephrine, dopamine, and g-aminobutyric acid) implicated in depressive and anxiety disorders."

 

In some the down regulation takes months or years to reverse. But reverse it does in the vast majority of cases.

 

OK, well, I have an MBA but my post paxil brain is having trouble comprehending this. I read it a couple of times. What is it saying exactly. I worry whether my brain will ever upregulate again. I don't think the remeron at 5mg is going to impair me long term but 13 years of paxil certainly will leave a wake. I don't think I just all of a sudden acquired disabling anxiety and depression. I could always "imagine" my way out of these states of mind.

[Skyler]

Your brain changed to compensate for the drugs and needs time to reset. Until it resets it will act as if the drugs are still in your system.

 

btw.. I had to read it about 10 times, and I knew what they were trying to say before I started. Still, it is succinctly worded and I thought it was worth the effort. Alto bases her recommendations on scientific reasoning, as well as anecdotal experience, and this is what makes her advice so on the money. She really is very good. (Alto.. are your ears ringing?)

[Altostrata]

(Yes, my ears are ringing. I thought it was my tinnitus.)

 

Yes, Gijoeman, you can be healing from Paxil withdrawal even though you're taking Remeron.

 

While the idea of being dependent on Remeron for sleep is not appealing, it's important for you to be able to sleep to recover from the influence of any of these drugs.

 

At any rate, you need to let your nervous system settle down from your Remeron tapering attempt. This means not making any changes.

 

The changes in Remeron, up, down, and sideways, may have aggravated your Paxil withdrawal syndrome. But it is what it is, and you need to manage it now.

 

Your nervous system is plastic, it will adapt to whatever you put into it. Paxil and Paxil withdrawal left an imprint on it. It is slowly changing that imprint back to its normal shape, working around the Remeron for now.

 

When the time comes you can very gradually reduce Remeron, your nervous system will adapt to that, too.

 

Recovery from withdrawal syndrome is usually very gradual, with waves of symptoms and windows when you feel better.

[Gijoeman]

 

 

I didn't want that poison in my body anymore. I also believe I had hit tolerance as prior to reducing to 10mg I had spent a year being awake for 2 to 3 hours a night. Since I started taking it for sleep disturbances (nightmares that woke me up anxious) I assumed it wasn't working so I wanted off. My GP suggested I "double the dose" which I tried 40mg for 2 days and felt like I had cotten stuffed in my head.

 

Do people usually get very gradually better or do they find they suddenly feel better? I will be 16 months off paxil on Sept 5th. The depression and anxiety are crippling. I never experienced anxiety and depression like this before. I never sought meds for either of these conditions although I suppose the sleep issues were a sign of anxiety.

 

Thanks...

 

Unfortunately, the poison is in your body as long as your nervous system acts like it is. The fact you don't take the med anymore is incidental. See the two paragraph's I cut and pasted below.

 

"The central nervous system (CNS) adapts to the presence of psychoactive drugs. Such adaptation commonly involves the readjustment of neuroreceptors to compensate for the acute pharmacological action of the medication. Desired drug effects may be mediated by such compensatory changes which may explain the delayed onset of therapeutic effect of antidepressants. This adaptation theory also explains why withdrawal symptoms and signs can occur on the discontinuation of such medications as clearance of drug can occur at a rate faster than the brain can readjust to the absence of medication. Hence, pharmacodynamic and pharmacokinetic factors contribute to the risk of a withdrawal syndrome. ...

 

There is speculation concerning the possibility of a temporary deficiency of synaptic serotonin with abrupt withdrawal of an SSRI. This deficiency is compounded by the fact that down-regulated receptors will remain in their relatively hypoactive state for days to weeks. This is believed to result in antidepressant discontinuation syndrome directly or indirectly via downstream effects on other neurotransmitter systems (e.g., norepinephrine, dopamine, and g-aminobutyric acid) implicated in depressive and anxiety disorders."

 

In some the down regulation takes months or years to reverse. But reverse it does in the vast majority of cases.

 

OK, well, I have and MBA but my post paxil brain is having trouble comprehending this. I read it a couple of times. What is it saying exactly. I worry whether my brain will ever upregulate again. I don't think the remeron at 5mg is going to impair me long term but 13 years of paxil certainly will leave a wake. I don't think I just all of a sudden acquired disabling anxiety and depression. I could always "imagine" my way out of these states of mind.

 

Your brain changed to compensate for the drugs and needs time to reset. Until it resets it will act as if the drugs are still in your system.

 

btw.. I had to read it about 10 times, and I knew what they were trying to say before I started. Still, it is succinctly worded and I thought it was worth the effort. Alto bases her recommendations on scientific reasoning, as well as anecdotal experience and this is what makes her advice so on the money. She really is very good (Alto.. are your ears ringing?)

 

I just read it again. I get it. It is hard managing these symptoms, which I know you are all aware of. I have to say I did get a different perspective from Alto. It was never mentioned to me that maybe just sitting tight on my current dose of remeron would be better for my paxil recovery. But I do get it. I suppose I will be no more "hooked" on remeron today after a year's use then I will be months from now. I just want to stop feeling like crap everyday. I am new to this site but not new to this whole process. I have been studying this for almost a year. I have adjusted my diet, I walk 3 to 6 miles a day. I am just too weak for strenuous exercise. I started out treadmilling back in Sept. Did that for 3 months. By month 7 (November) things got very bad. The anhedonia was beyond what I would consider humanly possible. In fact this whole process is quite inhumane. How can one's brain turn so hard? I feel I have been in a continual wave since November. Prior to that I would have about 2 decent days a week. I can only guage a good day when I wake up feeling fine. That is rare. But over the last 6 months differenet symptoms have lifted for a day here and there. Brain fog, anxiety, depression, low libido. At least I don't have the dreaded PSSD. But lack of desire isn't much better. I do have low testosterone. Tried injections for 2 months and only brought the levels up to the low normal. What is Alto's opinion about testosterone and SSRIs? I will be 50 in a couple of months. Low T is not uncommon. I also know that it is not the only consideration when it comes to libido. But low T was the only thing that showed up. I also feel that Paxil messed with my cholestoerol. It runs high in my family but I was unable to influence it at all by diet while on paxil. Back in December it went down with diet. But I was losing so much weight that I had to start eating more and that meant paying less attention to what I was eating. So I gained some decent weight back and the cholesterol went up. I decided to give it all another 6 months then re-evaluate. I don't want to start chasing symptoms. Doctors don't believe or don't want to believe any of this.

[Altostrata]

My opinion about testosterone is -- don't rock the hormonal boat!

 

Yes, the ignorance of the medical community about this is a crime, or should be.

 

Yes, your normal body functioning might change as you recover from withdrawal syndrome, hopefully for the better (lower cholesterol, lower blood sugar, etc.).

 

There are a few supplements that might lessen your symptoms -- see our Symptoms and Self-care forum.

 

(Please use paragraph breaks in your long posts, it makes them easier to read.)

[Gijoeman]

My opinion about testosterone is -- don't rock the hormonal boat!

 

Yes, the ignorance of the medical community about this is a crime, or should be.

 

Yes, your normal body functioning might change as you recover from withdrawal syndrome, hopefully for the better (lower cholesterol, lower blood sugar, etc.).

 

There are a few supplements that might lessen your symptoms -- see our Symptoms and Self-care forum.

 

(Please use paragraph breaks in your long posts, it makes them easier to read.)

 

Oops, didn't intend on being that long winded. So, when you say "don't rock the hormonal boat" what exactly do you mean? Should it self correct?

[Altostrata]

Your hormones are messed up from the psychiatric drugs. There's no distinction, really, between "neurohormones" and any other hormone.

 

Actions of hormones are not compartmentalized. Each affects the entire web.

 

Throwing in some testosterone might further destabilize the situation. (Your earlier testosterone treatment might have exacerbated your withdrawal syndrome.) Let it all settle down before experimenting with hormonal "correction."

 

You may well see changes in your testosterone readings, too.

[Gijoeman]

would like opinions on my current status. I have been in full blown paxil withdrawal for 15 months. I have been on 15mg or less of remeron for the last 13 months. The remeron was given to me to deal with the paxil withdrawal (which of course was not being acknowledged at the time by my doctor). Anyway, I have had a horrible week and a half and have updosed to 5mg remeron. I weaned from 10mg to 5mg over 4 months which was about 10% every three weeks. But the cuts may have caught up to me.

 

Anyway, what I need the opinion is whether my current breakdown, which today left me in as bad a shape as I have had during this whole ordeal, is from messing with remeron doses or still strictly paxil withdrawal. I know this process is not linear. Saturday I updosed from 4 to 5mg remeron. I slept great Sunday night and woke up yesterday feeling not so crappy. But last night I woke up at 4am again with the adrenalin dump and panic. Laid in bed for two hours praying for it to stop then got up, got my kids to school and then totally broke down, sobbing the way I had during the worst of this 5 months earlier.

 

I just find it hard to believe that paxil withdrawal could be hitting me this hard 16 months out. I am tempted to stop all my supplements but up to now they haven't been affecting me all that much that I can tell. I plan now to stay at 5mg remeron until I get some relief from the paxil withdrawal. I have been sleeping fine since March. But now all of a sudden the rude awakenings are back.

 

Thanks...

[Altostrata]

There's no way to determine which symptoms are from messing with remeron doses or still strictly paxil withdrawal.

 

Yes, you can still be suffering Paxil withdrawal, or hypersensitization from Paxil withdrawal. Read some of the other Intro topics where people have gone off Paxil too fast.

 

Your Remeron taper may have been too fast, which didn't help the situation.

 

What is your usual sleep pattern?

 

What supplements are you taking?

 

It sounds like updosing Remeron might have been helpful, it's too early to tell.

[Gijoeman]

There's no way to determine which symptoms are from messing with remeron doses or still strictly paxil withdrawal.

 

Yes, you can still be suffering Paxil withdrawal, or hypersensitization from Paxil withdrawal. Read some of the other Intro topics where people have gone off Paxil too fast.

 

Your Remeron taper may have been too fast, which didn't help the situation.

 

What is your usual sleep pattern?

 

What supplements are you taking?

 

It sounds like updosing Remeron might have been helpful, it's too early to tell.

 

I take my remeron at 9:30 and am in bed by 10. Since March I have been getting 8 hours of sleep almost all the time. In January when I messed with my remeron dosage because I was trying to make cuts without a scale I ended up having 30 days of 1 to 3 hours of sleep a night, lost a dangerous amount of weight as I was on a diet suggested by a naturopath doctor. I ended up going back to 15mg of remeron and started eating "normally." Gained back 15 pounds and started sleeping well, until now.

 

Since October I was taking fish oil, magnesium citrate and some B complex. I cut out the B for quite a while but have now been taking fish oil, CoQ10, vitamins B, C, D, E and the magnesium citrate. I added the vitamins and CoQ10 over the last month. I had been just taking fish oil and mag cit. I really didn't notice any effects from the fish oil but I figured it may not help but it wasn't hurting. Same as the magnesium.

 

Where can I find stories of people going off paxil too fast? What are neurohormones?

 

Thanks...

[Altostrata]

Serotonin, norepinephrine, dopamine, and GABA are neurohormones.

 

Again, the B vitamins may be causing you problems as they can be "alerting."

 

You may be sensitive to morning light. See http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/604-important-topics-about-symptoms-including-sleep-problems/

[Gijoeman]

Serotonin, norepinephrine, dopamine, and GABA are neurohormones.

 

Again, the B vitamins may be causing you problems as they can be "alerting."

 

You may be sensitive to morning light. See http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/604-important-topics-about-symptoms-including-sleep-problems/

 

How can I find stories of others cold turkeying off paxil? Do I just have to plod through them all?

[Skyler]

Look in the first posts of the intro threads. You can also use Google and enter the following string.. site:survivingantidepressants.org cold turkey paxil

[Gijoeman]

Still trying to distinguish withdrawal from tapering issues with Remeron. After dropping to 4mg from 5mg 2 weeks ago and experiencing crazy early morning anxiety again I updosed a week ago to 5mg. I have done pretty well ever since. But this last Saturday I decided to have a cocktail (bourbon). Just one and not late in the evening. I ended up falling asleep at 8:30 watching TV then went to bed by 9:30. At 10:30 I had a panic attack with jerking body parts, crying, wanting to die, etc. I ended up also waking early in the a.m. (5:00 or so). I attributed this to the cocktail. I had not had a panic incident like that in 3 or 4 months. I had drank a beer here and there but usually earlier in the day. I did have a beer last evening with dinner but all it seemed to do was put me to sleep again. I believe the sedating effects are due to the interaction with remeron although I don't take the remeron until 10pm or so.

 

I know I am in deep paxil withdrawal from 13 years of use and a cold turkey May of 2011. I am just wondering if the remeron could be making all my symptoms worse or if it really is have no effect at all other then staving off withdrawal from that drug by staying on a low dose. I really am concerned as to how I am going to get off this final 5mg. I understand going slow but how slow? I don't want to keep dropping then having to updose again. Should 10% drops be slow enough?

[compsports]

Still trying to distinguish withdrawal from tapering issues with Remeron. After dropping to 4mg from 5mg 2 weeks ago and experiencing crazy early morning anxiety again I updosed a week ago to 5mg. I have done pretty well ever since. But this last Saturday I decided to have a cocktail (bourbon). Just one and not late in the evening. I ended up falling asleep at 8:30 watching TV then went to bed by 9:30. At 10:30 I had a panic attack with jerking body parts, crying, wanting to die, etc. I ended up also waking early in the a.m. (5:00 or so). I attributed this to the cocktail. I had not had a panic incident like that in 3 or 4 months. I had drank a beer here and there but usually earlier in the day. I did have a beer last evening with dinner but all it seemed to do was put me to sleep again. I believe the sedating effects are due to the interaction with remeron although I don't take the remeron until 10pm or so.

 

I know I am in deep paxil withdrawal from 13 years of use and a cold turkey May of 2011. I am just wondering if the remeron could be making all my symptoms worse or if it really is have no effect at all other then staving off withdrawal from that drug by staying on a low dose. I really am concerned as to how I am going to get off this final 5mg. I understand going slow but how slow? I don't want to keep dropping then having to updose again. Should 10% drops be slow enough?

 

It is really hard to tell whether it it is due to the Paxil withdrawal or the Remeron

 

As an FYI, I had to taper the last 5gm at 5%.

 

I hope you feel better.

 

CS

[Altostrata]

Don't drink alcohol or ingest anything that's neurologically active!

 

Yes, the alcohol added to the destabilization.

 

Your system has been made hypersensitive by the earlier withdrawal syndrome. It's in a very, very delicate balance. Changes in Remeron can do this. In this way, there's no difference between the underlying withdrawal syndrome and problems reducing Remeron.

 

When your nervous system is hypersensitive, it's going to complain when you make any noticeable changes. The trick is to find the amount of decrease it won't notice.

 

Why do you feel you need to go off Remeron right now? It sounds to me like you should let your nervous system stabilize for a while.

[Gijoeman]

Don't drink alcohol or ingest anything that's neurologically active!

 

Yes, the alcohol added to the destabilization.

 

Your system has been made hypersensitive by the earlier withdrawal syndrome. It's in a very, very delicate balance. Changes in Remeron can do this. In this way, there's no difference between the underlying withdrawal syndrome and problems reducing Remeron.

 

When your nervous system is hypersensitive, it's going to complain when you make any noticeable changes. The trick is to find the amount of decrease it won't notice.

 

Why do you feel you need to go off Remeron right now? It sounds to me like you should let your nervous system stabilize for a while.

 

This is completely a product of my personality. I want to be in control and I want to get off it. I feel it is contributing to how badly I feel. But maybe that is not the case. You have made me look at this a bit differently. As long as I can believe I am still healing from paxil even while on remeron I think I can hold out without forcing it.

 

I wonder how much the 5mg of remeron are contributing to me feeling bad? I know that the effects of alcohol are increased with the remeron. I noticed that when I started taking it a year ago. I had only been off paxil for 2.5 months and was still drinking normally, 1 to 2 drinks 3 or 4 days a week. After the remeron I was just knocked out by 2 glasses of wine.

 

The question is can I trust that I am making progress from paxil withdrawal while still on remeron?

[Gijoeman]

 

Still trying to distinguish withdrawal from tapering issues with Remeron. After dropping to 4mg from 5mg 2 weeks ago and experiencing crazy early morning anxiety again I updosed a week ago to 5mg. I have done pretty well ever since. But this last Saturday I decided to have a cocktail (bourbon). Just one and not late in the evening. I ended up falling asleep at 8:30 watching TV then went to bed by 9:30. At 10:30 I had a panic attack with jerking body parts, crying, wanting to die, etc. I ended up also waking early in the a.m. (5:00 or so). I attributed this to the cocktail. I had not had a panic incident like that in 3 or 4 months. I had drank a beer here and there but usually earlier in the day. I did have a beer last evening with dinner but all it seemed to do was put me to sleep again. I believe the sedating effects are due to the interaction with remeron although I don't take the remeron until 10pm or so.

 

I know I am in deep paxil withdrawal from 13 years of use and a cold turkey May of 2011. I am just wondering if the remeron could be making all my symptoms worse or if it really is have no effect at all other then staving off withdrawal from that drug by staying on a low dose. I really am concerned as to how I am going to get off this final 5mg. I understand going slow but how slow? I don't want to keep dropping then having to updose again. Should 10% drops be slow enough?

 

It is really hard to tell whether it it is due to the Paxil withdrawal or the Remeron

 

As an FYI, I had to taper the last 5gm at 5%.

 

I hope you feel better.

 

CS

 

How are you today after being med free for 2 years? Was the Remeron the hardest to get off of? How is your sleep?

[Gijoeman]

I think my logic is that the longer I stay on remeron the more dependent my body becomes to it. I know this must be flawed logic. As it has already been a year on it I can't figure I would become more dependent on it. I guess I should take comfort in being 16 months off of paxil and having banked all that time. I just really thought I would be able to get off this drug by now.

[Altostrata]

No, after a year, you're not going to become more dependent on Remeron.

 

The difficulty going off it is because your nervous system is still very sensitive.

 

Please don't drink, that is prolonging your nervous system dysregulation. Every time you take a drink, your nervous system is jolted and has to recover again.

[dalsaan]

Hi gijoeman

 

Looking back on your more recent posts it looks like most of your trouble came when you dropped from 5-4. This is a Really big drop. It's 20 percent. When you were on 10ml a 1 ml drop equals 10 percent, as you go down they have to get smaller to keep it within that 10 percent window.

 

I made the mistake of dropping by 1 ml each time. It caught up with me at 7ml. I had to updose to the last point of stability, hold till stable then drop more slowly

[Gijoeman]

Hi gijoeman

 

Looking back on your more recent posts it looks like most of your trouble came when you dropped from 5-4. This is a Really big drop. It's 20 percent. When you were on 10ml a 1 ml drop equals 10 percent, as you go down they have to get smaller to keep it within that 10 percent window.

 

I made the mistake of dropping by 1 ml each time. It caught up with me at 7ml. I had to updose to the last point of stability, hold till stable then drop more slowly

 

I knew it was 20% I just thought I could handle it. But with Altostrata's recent comments I now understand that staying on it longer is not a big deal and not making things worse. She also explained why I am unable to drop faster. I will wait a couple weeks then go to 4.5mg. I just hate that I would have to drop at 10% all the way down. That will take quite a while.