Alltimegreat1 Withdrawal or Relapse?

[Alltimegreat1]

3 minutes ago, FireflyFyte said:

 

At what time are you taking the 9 beads of Venlafaxine?

11:00am

[FireflyFyte]

7 hours ago, Alltimegreat1 said:

11:00am

 

I would try moving your dosage time earlier to see if that helps with sleep. Only move one hour at a time so tomorrow, you could try taking it at 10:00 AM and seeing if you have an easier time with sleep.

[Alltimegreat1]

I booked a phone consultation with a person who's knowledgeable about this topic and is certainly well known to many people on this forum. I asked whether the fact that I was on a high dose of Venlafaxine (225mg) I was on for six weeks could have contributed to me developing acute and delayed-onset withdrawal symptoms. The answer I received was effectively "not really," and the reasoning provided is that the differences in serotonin occupancy in the brain between 225mg, 150mg, 75mg, and even 37.5mg are not significant due to the hyperbolic curve.

 

Any thoughts on this? Agreements or disagreements?

[Altostrata]

Going on and off drugs and tapering too quickly are what's responsible for your withdrawal symptoms, not that you took 225mg for a short amount of time.

[Alltimegreat1]

So I'm getting fairly close to a month at 9 beads. My mood is definitely better and the physical sick-to-my-stomach feeling has largely disappeared. However, I'm unable to sleep more than 3-4 hours without a sleep aid, and I feel that my thinking is a bit slowed. I've also had some strange pains along my spine like I pinched a nerve. These have come and gone over the past few weeks. Not too painful, but concerning that it could be part of this withdrawal. Also occasional mild headaches. I'm able to work and go out for family activities, although sometimes I just feel a bit off.

 

How should I be feeling before I can start tapering down by a bead?

[Altostrata]

On 9/11/2023 at 4:24 PM, FireflyFyte said:

 

I would try moving your dosage time earlier to see if that helps with sleep. Only move one hour at a time so tomorrow, you could try taking it at 10:00 AM and seeing if you have an easier time with sleep.

 

Did you do this? 

 

Getting more sleep may help settle your nervous system down. Please let us know how you're doing. 

[Alltimegreat1]

Yes I did. It didn't help. I can usually fall asleep without any difficulty, but the problem is always waking up at 4 or 5am and not falling back asleep.

[Altostrata]

What times o'clock do you take your drugs, with their dosages?

 

8 minutes ago, Alltimegreat1 said:

I can usually fall asleep without any difficulty, but the problem is always waking up at 4 or 5am and not falling back asleep.

 

This is not too bad for withdrawal syndrome.

 

Because withdrawal arises from a nervous system that is upset and probably sensitized, we are reluctant to tinker with drugs to fix it. Withdrawal symptoms may come and go and change into other withdrawal symptoms, but overall, nervous system destabilization tends to very gradually correct itself. 

 

Physical pain often is related to longstanding repetitive stress or poor posture that is now making itself known through a sensitized nervous system. You may find gentle exercise stretching, physical therapy, acupuncture, osteopathic manipulation therapy, chiropractic, or massage to be helpful to relieve pain symptoms.

 

You may get many odd symptoms, aches, and pains as you recover from withdrawal. Please be patient and allow your nervous system to settle down.

[Alltimegreat1]

I have been taking 5mg Olanzapine at around 11pm, but not every day. It's really the only thing that helps me get a good night's sleep. The OTC sleep pills don't really work, unless I take one in the middle of the night upon waking up. I also take melatonin 5mg around 11pm and 9 beads (approx. 2mg) of Venlafaxine at 10am.

 

I obviously don't want to develop a dependency on Olanzapine. I took this every night for about four months while at the clinic. The doctors there said it's completely safe to take long term, and mentioned nothing about withdrawals. I figured I needed it since I couldn't sleep more than a few hours a night before I first started on any meds back in March. I now suspect that sometime thereafter I recovered from the underlying depression and it was then the Sertraline/Venlafaxine that was robbing me of sleep.

 

It's tough to say whether the withdrawal or the 9 beads of Venlafaxine are causing the insomnia. I feel it's the Venlafaxine though, despite the miniscule amount, since I was sleeping very well until about three days after reinstating. I guess if 9 beads are enough to minimize withdrawal symptoms, it is also enough to cause insomnia.

[FireflyFyte]

6 hours ago, Alltimegreat1 said:

I have been taking 5mg Olanzapine at around 11pm, but not every day. It's really the only thing that helps me get a good night's sleep. The OTC sleep pills don't really work, unless I take one in the middle of the night upon waking up. I also take melatonin 5mg around 11pm and 9 beads (approx. 2mg) of Venlafaxine at 10am.

 

I obviously don't want to develop a dependency on Olanzapine. I took this every night for about four months while at the clinic. The doctors there said it's completely safe to take long term, and mentioned nothing about withdrawals.

 

Can you update your signature to reflect your Olanzapine usage? You can find instructions at How to Summarize Your Drug History in Your Signature

 

Olanzapine is a powerful anti-psychotic and is known for its difficult withdrawals. Depending on your usage, you may need to taper it slowly to try and mitigate withdrawal effects. You can read more about tapering Olanzapine at Tips for tapering off Zyprexa (olanzapine). Your current insomnia might be connected to your inconsistent usage of Olanzapine.

[Alltimegreat1]

Again, thanks so much for the support. I'm really in a bad spot here with the sleep.

 

I updated my signature. I began sleeping well in July immediately after going off Venlafaxine and only started sleeping poorly again after reinstating. I didn't start using Olanzapine until well after the insomnia set in again.

 

One drug-based option other than Olanzapine is Pipamperone. I have a whole pack of that. It seems to be used only in a few European countries (Germany, Switzerland, and the Netherlands), so you may not be familiar with it.

 

Pipamperone may be a far less powerful drug than Olanzapine: "At its usually recommended antipsychotic dose (120–360 mg/d), it has relatively weak neuroleptic activity because it is only moderately effective as a dopamine D2-receptor antagonist, even at high doses." PIPAMPERONE (ncats.io)

 

"Pipamperone is a typical antipsychotic of the butyrophenone family and is used to treat schizophrenia and as a sleep aid for depression." Pipamperon - dosage, effect, side effects - medikamio

 

I know that this website is not about recommending medication, but would you say that Pipamperone is a better (less bad) option than Olanzapine?

 

The dose I would be taking is "only" 40mg. Would be very grateful for some opinions here. Thanks.

[Altostrata]

If you feel 9 beads of venlafaxine is interfering with your sleep, you might reduce it or stop it.

 

Otherwise, it looks like you're looking for a drug solution to your withdrawal syndrome. We have no advice to offer about that, you'll have to depend on experimentation by your prescribers.

[Happy2Heal]

On 8/23/2023 at 6:11 PM, Alltimegreat1 said:

I have no reason to be depressed in my life. I have a high-paying, safe, and cushy job that I enjoy and I'm happily married with kids and lots of good friends.

if the depression began before you took zyprexa (olanzapine) disregard this

 

zyprexa blocks dopamine and low dopamine makes you feel basically depressed- "Having low levels of dopamine can make you less motivated and excited about things"

I didn't know this at all until I was watching a you tube video hosted by a Stanford researcher and professor and he was talking about a time when he was given an antipsychotic during some sort of medical emergency (I can't recall what the situation was) and it instantly made him so horribly depressed, he told the drs to give him some drug, I think l-dopa? something that would reverse the effects of the antipsychotic

 

I was shocked because I never knew this. I was forced to take 1st generation antipsychotics as a teenager and later in a state hospital they gave me haldol.

When I got out of the hospital, I was sleeping a lot and wondered if maybe I "needed" the haldol (I hated the way it made me feel so drugged that I only took it when forced to)
So I took a single dose of the haldol and within a few hours I was feeling suicidal!!

 

These drugs mess with our minds so much.

The manufacturers admit they don't know HOW they "work" (and exactly what that means is subject to debate)

you can't change one thing in the brain or the body either afaik

 

it's all connected

 

so please consider finding non drug methods of dealing with your symptoms

 

there is a TON of great advice on this forum about things you can do, check them out!! 

 

and good luck

 

[Alltimegreat1]

The depression started in December and I held out as long as I could before taking any meds. I didn't start Olanzapine until March.

 

OK, I think I'll stop taking the 9 beads and see what happens. I feel pretty decent other than the insomnia. Hopefully the reinstatement for three weeks has calmed my nervous system down to a large extent.

[Alltimegreat1]

Would it make any sense to take a tiny crumb of Sertraline today when stopping the ~2mg Venlafaxine, due to Sertraline's longer half life, so that it would ease me off the drug a bit better? I don't have any Fluoxetine.

 

I took about 3.5mg of Olanzapine last night for sleep, which worked. But I will take the advice of Altostrata and the others here and stop using drugs for sleep. Hopefully the discontinuation of the 9 beads of Venlafaxine will resolve the insomnia, and then I can cope with any other symptoms with exercise, sunlight, vitamins, psychotherapy, meditation, acupuncture, etc.

 

I will watch out for any noticeable acute withdrawal symptoms arising from the drop from 2mg to zero and will report back.

[Alltimegreat1]

It's been over 48 hours since I took my final 2mg Venlafaxine capsule. I'm feeling alright and no signs of withdrawal really. Sleep was pretty decent last night, but I had taken 3.5mg Olanzapine the night before last (Monday), which could still be in my system and have helped me sleep better last night.

 

If the low-dose Venlafaxine XR was indeed causing the insomnia (which I suspect), how many days after full discontinuation should my sleep return to normal?

[Altostrata]

On 9/19/2023 at 12:46 AM, Alltimegreat1 said:

I feel pretty decent other than the insomnia.

 

If I were you, I'd leave well enough alone and stop trying to perfect your inner life with drugs.

 

Your sleep should go back to baseline in a week or two.

[Alltimegreat1]

Thanks again for the sound advice. I slept noticeably better last night (Wednesday) without having taken any drugs since Monday.

[Alltimegreat1]

I've had a semi-constant muscle twitch in my chin/lip area since yesterday, and I'm concerned it could be tardive dyskinesia from two months of nightly Olanzapine usage (and intermittent use for another month, alongside Pipamperone, another antipsychotic). Could this possibly be a Venlafaxine withdrawal symptom that will go away? Any ideas about what's going on here and/or suggestions about what I can do now about this? Thanks.

[Altostrata]

Twitches from withdrawal come and go and are temporary.