Iggy131313 validation is imminent

[Altostrata]

You're welcome, Iggy.

[peggy]

Iggy, that is very positive that you have not had the DP or DR.

 

Regarding your sleep - what do you do before you fall asleep at 1 or 2am? Are you up and about or lying in bed? If you are up and about it may be a good idea to try and bring forward your bedtime by 15mins or so each day - that way you will get onto a more normal diurnal pattern - going to sleep at about 11pm and getting up at 7am. That way you can participate in the morning routine at home, getting your son breakfast and off to school. All these things help to normalise, distract and get you back on track.

 

Great effort going shopping and picking up your son

[strawberry17]

Yes well done Iggy I agree that was a massive step picking up your son and doing the shopping mall, also really good news about not having the DP or DR or voices at bedtime.

[Barbarannamated]

Iggy, that is very positive that you have not had the DP or DR.

 

Great effort going shopping and picking up your son

 

I second that! I get DR in large enclosed shopping areas with fluorescent lighting.

Kudos!

[Skyler]

You would all be very proud of me, Ive taken what Dr Healy said onn board and today I went to a massive shopping mall, then walked for a while and then picked up my son from school...it was a horror ride, every second of it, but I did it, Im really trying to be physically and mentally active.

 

I havent had akathisia since dropping from 20.

Good to hear you were able to get out. It's easy to believe things are really so scary instead of the amplification effects of withdrawal, so reality checks are important.

 

Great you no longer have akathisia.

[Karma]

Hi Iggy,

 

I find that if I rate all of my key symptoms on a daily basis it helps me listen to my body. Sleep is obviously one of your symptoms, but you've mentioned a few more. Check out this thread http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1779-rate-symptoms-daily-to-catch-withdrawal-early/ . There is also a link to Dr. Glenmullen's withdrawal symptoms checklist in this thread. This will do two things, 1) it will help you see if your withdrawal is too fast by identifying the unpleasant symptoms as they sneak back in, 2) it will help you see your own progress even if it is subtle.

 

Congratulations on getting out to pick up your son and go to the big mall. I personally am still able to work and I think that the fact that I have to be somewhere and I have to accomplish something helps me fight through most withdrawal symptoms. I'm not suggesting it, I am just relating it to what Dr. Healy said.

 

Love and light

Karma

[Timinjapan]

 

Dr. Healy told you you also need mental exercise. Good. Planning and carrying out a taper is good mental exercise. I think your compromise plan is workable. So you can put that into effect and see how it goes. People are recommending 10% per month because your brain is sensitive to dose changes, but going faster after a failed RI may be OK too. Dr. Healy seems to think so.

Thanks Tim, I get so much into the 'ten % solution' as to sometimes lose the larger picture, and I agree with you... well said. I choose the slow boat, but that is me, and this does not mean it's right for everyone in all circumstances. Caroline, we'll support you whatever you decide.

 

Tim, Welcome to the forum.

 

Thanks very much, Schuyler. I'm making a slow start here as I'm quite busy these days, but I intend to start posting fairly regularly soon. I've been getting a lot out of this forum since I've been reading it and I really appreciate what Alto and the rest of the gang are doing to support all of us who are trying to extricate ourselves from the often tangled web of psychoactive medication.

[Iggy131313]

ok so its nearly 2 weeks since I dropped to 2mg and there is no change here, well thats not really true, there is a slight change, for the better!! again this could be because its a better place in my cycle and also becasue I have been trying so hard, I have still been crying everyday and having that horrible inner aggitation and anxiety but its a little better.

 

Now I wanted to ask Alto in particular about smoking pot....ok, so I have always smoked pot occasionally, its something my system has always been used to and I have never had a bad effect from it, unlike alcohol whch I do not like and do not have...

 

obviously when this happened I stopped but thats upsetting for 2 reasons, 1 because I miss it, obviously, it was how I would relax in the evening or enjoy a sunny day in the garden, I am (was, will be again?) a musician and arty and I felt the pot helped me with those things...

 

the other reason that I think not smoking it is affecting me is that because that was part of my daily life and routine not having it is making me feel even weirder, yes im in w/d and thats horrible but also im not living my normal life and that in my opinion is exaserbating things, I could be wrong.

 

So whats the verdict? could I try i hit and see how it effects me? I have seen many different opinions on this, I totally agree that someone who has never smoked pot should not try to use it during w/d, but for someone like me who has used it for many years?

 

and ok if its a resounding no, and I havent had any for 5 months now, do you think it will be possible again for me in the future? like I said I dont drink, I dont like drinking and my only treat was a little smokie, I would hate to think that I will never be able to use it again in my life!!!

 

please dont bash me for asking,

[Altostrata]

See http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1393-thc-or-marijuana/

[Jemima]

Please don't bash us for not answering. Marijuana is illegal in most of the USA so I wouldn't dare approve of your using it and risk jeopardizing this forum.

 

In your case, I think using any kind of drug stronger than aspirin or fish oil would be a very, very bad idea given how unstable you already are in withdrawal. Most of us have experienced exaggerated reactions to over-the-counter supplements and even coffee and herbal teas due to increased sensitivity from withdrawal. Your body is not the same body you had back when you smoked regularly and had never taken an antidepressant. You can do what you wish, of course, but I think you're playing with fire, no pun intended.

 

What do you think Dr. Healy would say?

[Iggy131313]

right ok, I just wanted to ask

[flower]

Iggy How is that 2.5 Celexa working for you. Being in WD 5 months down the road scares the crap out of me.

[Iggy131313]

Im on 2mg now, my situation is very different to yours and I fully expect to be in w/d for 2 to 3 years, I think that seems the normal recovery time for a situation like mine.

 

Im in hell, you are different, take it slow and your gonna be really fine

[flower]

Iggy thanks for the hope...Why is your situation so different ,because of the CT? I'll read your thread.

[flower]

I read your story and I'm not so different The panic from Celexa has landed me in the hospital 3 0r 4 times. I can't remember. Not just Celexa but Prozac and then Zoloft and then Celexa for a year. Tapering too quickly, I knew nothing about until coming here. I too am in hell. It's great to meet you redardless and since we have this in common maybe we can console each other now and again. 7.5 and holding I am...I don't want the hospital. My family is scared for me. Prayers for you Iggy...

[flower]

I read your story and I'm not so different The panic from Celexa has landed me in the hospital 3 0r 4 times. I can't remember. Not just Celexa but Prozac and then Zoloft and then Celexa for a year. Tapering too quickly, I knew nothing about until coming here. I too am in hell. It's great to meet you redardless and since we have this in common maybe we can console each other now and again. 7.5 and holding I am...I don't want the hospital. My family is scared for me. Prayers for you Iggy...

 

It's amazing how such a small dose can have this effect.

[Iggy131313]

how are you now flower? are you doing ok? we are different because I have been in hell since trying to take celexa again, in fact I entered hell a couple of days before when my CT withdrawal kicked in at 5 months post CT.

 

If you are feeling ok and go slow you should continue to be ok, I however am doomed.

[Iggy131313]

I just re read what you posted, Im so sorry you are in a bad place, we will get through this but its going to takes a few years. We just have to try to find a way to hold on, and Im not doing very well, Im having a the chemical depression at the moment and cant stop crying, oh I want my life back so mmuch

[Iggy131313]

Alto, its been 2 weeks now since I dropped from 2.5 to 2mg and things have stayed the same, as I said even been a little bit better, is this a good sign? I plan to drop to 1.5mg in another 2 weeks time, sleep remains stable, as usual I find it hard to get to sleep at night but once I am asleep I dont wake up and am able to sleep until between 10.30am and 12.

 

All other symptoms are the same, if not a tiny bit less ....maybe

[Jemima]

how are you now flower? are you doing ok? we are different because I have been in hell since trying to take celexa again, in fact I entered hell a couple of days before when my CT withdrawal kicked in at 5 months post CT.

 

If you are feeling ok and go slow you should continue to be ok, I however am doomed.

 

 

Iggy, there is no reason whatever to think you are doomed - unless that is what you want to believe and wailing about it gets you a lot of welcome attention. I will never as long as I live condone anyone being on these horrible drugs, but your history is most definitely not the worst - or the most promising - of any I've read here in the past year. I suspect that you dramatize every little thing that goes wrong in your life, and perhaps that is why you ended up on a SSRI. My advice is to get your focus off of yourself. Life isn't all that great for any one of us. Reality often sucks. I'm sorry to say that this is life. Things just don't always go as well or as badly as we expect. Chin up and carry on!

[Altostrata]

Yes, you will need to recover from withdrawal syndrome no matter how you taper off 2.5mg citalopram. How long this will take is unknown.

 

While you are stabilizing on that small amount of citalopram, your nervous system is recovering. In addition, that small amount of citalopram is helping to preserve your sleep.

 

Please stop focusing on 2.5mg citalopram being the root of your problems. Your problems are because you tapered too fast and your nervous system is in an uproar. The nervous system thrives on stability. Give it stability, not more uproar.

 

Iggy, I suggest you start with a 10% reduction to see how it affects your sleep.

 

It seemed the reductions were affecting your sleep, remember? We don't want you to be suffering withdrawal insomnia on top of everything else.

 

(Did you tell Dr. Healy about this?)

 

A 10% reduction on 2.5mg would be .25mg. The dose would be 2.25mg.

 

Hold that for 2 weeks and see if your sleep is stable. If it is, make another cut after 3 or 4 weeks.

 

If it does not affect your sleep, you may be able to make reductions of 10% more often every month, perhaps every 2 weeks, totaling 20% per month. That is the compromise.

 

Here is a 10% reduction schedule based on a starting dosage of 2.5mg:

 

1) 2.25mg

2) 2.02

3) 1.82

4) 1.64

5) 1.48

6) 1.33

7) 1.20

8) 1.08

9) 0.97

10) 0.87

11) 0.79

12) 0.71

13) 0.64

14) 0.58

15) 0.52

16) 0.47

17) 0.42

18) 0.38

19) 0.34

20) 0.31

21) 0.28

22) 0.25

23) 0.23

22) 0.20

23) 0.18

24) 0.16

25) 0.15

24) 0.14

25) 0.13

26) 0.12

27) 0.11

28) 0.10

none (maybe)

 

Whether this takes 28 months or 28 weeks or 14 weeks depends on the tolerance of your nervous system. You wouldn't want to go faster than that, right?

 

 

Do you remember these posts, Iggy?

 

My concern is, if you go too fast, your sleep will deteriorate, you'll be here complaining about it, going back up in dosage won't work, and you'll be even more miserable than you are now.

 

I have told you many, many times your nervous system needs stability. Making big changes in your dosage causes instability.

 

If you want to make a decrease from 2mg to 1.5mg, a change of 25%, go right ahead. Please stop asking if it's okay. Take responsibility for the results. I won't be commenting on your rate of taper any more.

[Brandy]

Caroline, I'll answer your emails later since (you guessed it) I have to dash out again soon.

 

But I want to ask you a question. Think it through and be honest with yourself.

 

Is the reason you want to follow the taper schedule you're describing because, as you've stated, Dr. Healy suggested dropping by 0.5 mg drops, or is it because of your conjecture that you will heal at X amount of time from your last dose?

 

I've been wondering since you described your visit with Dr. Healy whether he felt 0.5 mg drops were optimal, or whether he was trying to "compromise" with your firm belief that recovery only starts with the last drop and that it will happen in "X" amount of time after you're completely off, regardless of taper schedule?

 

That latter conviction concerns me. It simply isn't true based on what I've observed from literally thousands of cases that I've followed in various groups as the people were tapering and recovering, and many of whom have corresponded with me in more detail than what they mention in posts.

 

As I've said before, it's almost invariably the opposite of the truth. Some people do not experience withdrawal symptoms from these meds. We know that. I'm talking about those of us who do, and what I've seen does and does not work.

 

So I've actually been meaning to ask you whether it's possible Dr. Healy was trying to come up with a plan you would accept that is faster than what prevents or minimizes protracted withdrawal, but which you would agree to if you were refusing to consider a slower taper.

 

Dropping by fixed doses (such as 0.5 mg) as opposed to percentages (and large ones when considering you're at the lower doses) used to be common but all w/d psych med w/d groups found long ago it leads to the kind of problems we want to avoid. True, you read many cases of people having hard times - but most of them followed such a taper schedule. As you've seen, it didn't promote healing. It hindered it.

 

I think we're all uncomfortable because no one's timetable for healing is the same. Timetables often need to be fine-tuned OVER TIME (not based on short-term responses) to suit not only individual biochemistries, but also a healing process that changes physically over time.

 

When people do this and allow sufficient lag time (DIFFERENT FROM HALF-LIFE; I CANNOT OVERSTRESS THIS), they usually start feeling better over time and often have little or no problems post-taper. One thing I've observed a lot is that people often jump off a dose at what I think is too high a dose. The reason they're told to do that is that the very lowest doses are considered "too low to have any effect."

 

Well, the very lowest doses are too small to have a therapeutic effect, I agree. But slow tapering is about giving the body optimal conditions for healing from the changes the med has made in the nervous system - not about getting therapeutic benefits from the med. And the "shock" of too-large drops seems to work against the very healing process people are trying to achieve.

 

No one can predict another person's healing. Not a doctor, not us. But I have noticed that with all your jumps in dose, you've never given small percentage drops a chance. Would you consider trying that for at least a couple of months? Then we could re-evaluate from there.

 

You cannot give your body a time limit as to when it's supposed to heal a given amount or manifest symptoms. It's not a puppy you're training. Most people need a certain number of months to observe their body's healing patterns at a given rate, then readjust periodically if necessary over time.

 

IF you want to consider trying this (which involves considerable will power when your body is instinctively hollering, "Help! Do something!" - we ALL know what that's like!), but are concerned you're not following Dr. Healy's instructions -- You said he said you could email him, so maybe you could email and ask him if he thinks trying 10% drops for 2 or 3 months would be a problem.

 

But I think your resistance to it is more a desire to hurry, and that's what got most of us who've had long-term problems into trouble. I've told you - I felt better and better with every drop in my too-fast (about six weeks) taper off paxil. I thought it was due to reduction of the side effects I'd developed over time that were the reason I wanted to get off paxil.

 

That may have been part of it, of course. But one thing I've realized lately and considering starting a thread about, is that based on the patterns I've been seeing of this happening to so many people (feeling better and better, then crashing followed by severe protracted w/d), is that the body may actually release some "feel good" chemicals INITIALLY to cope with the shocks of too-large or too-fast tapering.

 

But clearly it can only do that so long, and then things go to the other extreme. One can and does still recover from that, but it can be slow and indescribably hard.

 

You've expressed great fear about experiencing what some of us with protracted w/d have been or are going through. We're trying to help you avoid that. We can't make what you're going through right away go away any faster than it will. We can't rush the healing process. I wish to god we could But we can help you avoid prolonging or worsening it. And hopefully get you to starting to feel relief sooner rather than much later.

[Iggy131313]

ok I have a question, Alto you say my system is recovering with the 2mg of citalopram still there, do you mean it can still be recovering from the initial CT in Feb? or just from the recent RI and drops?

 

You said I will still have to recover gradually from discontinuation syndrome no matter how slow I taoper off this small amount, so you cant mean recovery from the initail CT and w/d or there would be a chance that I wouldnt have to have a bad w/d from that?

 

Brandy, there are a few reasons that I am dropping at this rate

 

1) I decided to put my faith in Dr Healy and this was his recommendation

 

2) Yes I do believe that my brain cant start to heal and it will be X amount of time from my last dose

 

3) as I am going to suffer anyway from w/d after my last dose why would I put myself through another 1 or 2 YEARS (I really wont be taking that long) before I come off the drug

 

Alto you also said to evaluate after 2 weeks, thats why I posted after 2 weeks, I thought I was doing the right thing and Im sorry that you have decided to not help me anymore, its a great loss.

 

Jemima, your comment was insulting and uneccesarry, I am not looking for attention nor am I the person you have drawn me up as here, thats very nasty.

[Iggy131313]

Althought Jemima I will say this, the person you described is probably an accurate version of me at the moment - less the craving attention, trust me I dont want this and I wish with all my heart and soul that it wasnt happening, I dont want attention from this I want it to go away and for me to disapear and never think about it again, to move on with my life, which was great, and I was put on ssris for a physical illness not any emotional need or attention seeking and dramatic behaviour.

 

Who I am now, in this state is not who I was before, I thought you guys would understand someone in this state of mind/being, yes I think Im doomed, is that not a natural assuption in this state, I cant help how I feel, I have have read so many stories of people suffering a lonf time after there drug use, 6, 7, 8, 9 years, thats what drives my posts about feeling doomed.

 

Your post upset me a great deal, way to kick someone when they are at their lowest point, anyway I forgive your comments as I have much MUCH bigger fish to fry.

[flower]

Hang on Iggy..I too am having rough days. I can't express myself very well is my problem. I cry too especially after a change in the Celexa. Seems there's no way out. I wish I was down to 2mgs. I know how you feel. Email me any time...Force yourself to get moving.

[compsports]

Iggy, I have reading your posts for quite awhile and had a few thoughts.

 

While I am not dealing with withdrawal, I am in a situation where I have to make some tough decisions as I still have been unable to adjust to pap treatment. Not having health insurance, every decision is agony such as whether I should consult a doctor or try to solve the problem on my own.

 

So I totally get your issues in having to make decisions. But in the end, no one can do it for us as we have to chose an option and let it ride. While this board can give you support, they can't run your life for you. They do miraculous things but that isn't one of them:)

 

While normally I wouldn't endorse what Jemima said, in my opinion, it is totally understandable that those comments were made as it seems many people have been very patient in responding to your posts without getting upset. In my opinion, they have gone way beyond the call of duty. And remember, they aren't getting paid for this.

 

By the way, as one who tends to fall into the inflexible thinking pattern that a decision is forever, it isn't. If you pick a strategy and decide tomorrow, you want to change your mind, you can do that. Not that I am advocating that but just trying to point out that you are in control of the process.

 

Anyway Iggy, I hope you will take this post in the spirit it was intended. I don't want to sound like a tough love nut as I deplore that line of thinking. But the other side of the coin is we have to take responsibility for our lives no matter how tough things are. No one on this board can do that for you.

 

CS

[flower]

Althought Jemima I will say this, the person you described is probably an accurate version of me at the moment - less the craving attention, trust me I dont want this and I wish with all my heart and soul that it wasnt happening, I dont want attention from this I want it to go away and for me to disapear and never think about it again, to move on with my life, which was great, and I was put on ssris for a physical illness not any emotional need or attention seeking and dramatic behaviour.

 

Who I am now, in this state is not who I was before, I thought you guys would understand someone in this state of mind/being, yes I think Im doomed, is that not a natural assuption in this state, I cant help how I feel, I have have read so many stories of people suffering a lonf time after there drug use, 6, 7, 8, 9 years, thats what drives my posts about feeling doomed.

 

Your post upset me a great deal, way to kick someone when they are at their lowest point, anyway I forgive your comments as I have much MUCH bigger fish to fry.

 

How do you measure that2.5mgs Iggy Are you cutting pills?

[Iggy131313]

Hi flower no I have the liquid, 1 drop is 2.5mg, to get the 2mg I titrate it with 5ml water and take 4ml of the water when its well mixed

[flower]

I'm a little confused by that,I'm confused anyhow! I have a solution already mixed by the pharmacy. I use a 1 ML syringe which is equal to 2 mgs. tastes minty. I got a Korc for the bottle to draw out of. They told me about that here. Once I get stabilized,if I can, I'll drop .5mg. Less than suggested but I'm tired of messing myself up. I'd like to get on a slow but steady taper if I only knew how I would react.

[flower]

Also I sometimes use Hydroxyzine for anxiety. It helps.But that's all. No benzos

[Altostrata]

Iggy, I've already answered that question. Read my posts in your topic again.

 

Are you keeping notes of your symptom pattern? This will help you re-evaluate periodically.

 

As I've told you before, repeatedly, there's nothing else I can add. Rather than asking me the same questions again and again, please re-read my posts in your topic.

[Iggy131313]

I have re erad and I cant find you saying if I can reciover from the intial CT whilst still having the 2mg in, you say I will have to recover from w/d no matter how I taper off the 2mg but I dont understand if I can recover from that while I take the 2mg, Im sorry I wont ask any more questions if you could just clarify that for me, Im really sorry, I dont want to be a pain I just honestly dont understnad..please

[Altostrata]

Yes, you will need to recover from withdrawal syndrome no matter how you taper off 2.5mg citalopram. How long this will take is unknown.

 

While you are stabilizing on that small amount of citalopram, your nervous system is recovering. In addition, that small amount of citalopram is helping to preserve your sleep.

 

Please stop focusing on 2.5mg citalopram being the root of your problems. Your problems are because you tapered too fast and your nervous system is in an uproar. The nervous system thrives on stability. Give it stability, not more uproar.

 

While you are stabilizing on that small amount of citalopram, your nervous system is recovering.

[Iggy131313]

ok, now Im crying, Im sorry. Im so sorry

[Altostrata]

No need to be sorry, Iggy. Slow down and read.

[aberdeen]

hey iggy it's me aberdeen from pp. Just wanted to pop in and say I'M healing from horrid effexor withdrawal while I'm on my 10mg of paxil and tapering. I can feel it. My bad waves are way milder and shorter and the good times in between feel more like normality than ever. It happens! The drug isn't poisoning us while it's in us, it's still possible to heal, especially on low doses like yours.