King of supplements: Omega-3 fatty acids (fish oil)

[Altostrata]

Ester and triglyceride are two ways of processing fish oil. No one has determined if either is better, they both seem to be absorbed and increase omega-3 blood levels.

[KarenB]

Right, announcement by an idiot:  Fish oil is NOT THE SAME as cod-liver oil .

 

Thanks to Petunia for pointing this out to me in someone else's thread.  I cannot believe I've taken cod-liver oil for - hmm, must be 5 months now?  And it's activating for my CNS.  I think I need to cry.  The bottles looked the same, it was Nordic Naturals, and it had those same ratings of EPA and DHA etc.  And Cods are fish.  Why does my brain do this to me?  I so carefully took all my info to the shop with me, so carefully asked the lady behind the counter for help. 

 

Seriously sometimes I wonder how I manage to do anything at all with this brain of mine.  I might be a little bit hysterical right now.  Starting to laugh along with the tears.  Oh boy.

[cyopher72]

I am so impatient............. I ended up ordering Nordic Naturals Ultimate Omega® 2x it is a triglyceride-form omega oil and is IFOS certified. Plus it has higher DHA than my current which I believe to be good for anxiety.

 

each soft-gel contains 

 

EPA 562mg

DHA 438mg

 

http://www.nordicnaturals.com/en/Products/Product_Details/514/?ProdID=1739

 I started these last night with dinner. They are triglyceride-form and do not have the enteric coating. My other brand caused me digestive issues, made my bum greasy and itchy.

[Altostrata]

Freezing the fish oil capsules often reduces burping and other reactions from them.

[Happy2Heal]

I am now an ethical vegan and will take fish oil, however in the past, I took fish oil for depression and mood stabilization, as recommended by a forward thinking psychiatrist that has a website somewhere, sadly I can't at this time recall his name, grrr!

I did a high dose of fish oil in the proportions he recommended (his recommendations were based on research results that showed which ratio of DHA and EPA were best)

It took at least a month but it DID help me feel better, in some way I can't really articulate

 

I am now following Dr Furhmans Nutritarian diet but as a vegan, and have been using ground flax seeds, chia seeds and walnuts.

 

he sells his own Omega supplement but I am going to look for something a bit less expensive, YIKES!

https://www.drfuhrman.com/library/what_vegans_may_be_missing-DHA.aspx

 

UPDATE I found his page, and was surprised to see this forum mentioned, check it out for yourself:

 

http://psycheducation.org/

 

QUOTE: 14. Reduce in the smallest possible increments. As you approach zero then take the dose changes smaller or longer. Get out that pill cutter. If you can’t get dosage changes in small enough changes do every other day between the smaller dose and the larger dose [WARNING: the Surviving Antidepressants group is strongly against this practice. They have come up with an amazing number of ways of making small doses so that you don’t have to do this. See a summary of their wisdom. END QUOTE

[Happy2Heal]

more info from Dr Fuhrman on fish oil:

Long-chain omega-3 fatty acids from fish are known to have a variety of health benefits, but eating fish is not the healthiest method for getting these valuable fats.

There are three major omega-3 fatty acids that we get from our diets. Alpha-linolenic acid (ALA) is a short-chain omega-3 found in flaxseeds, hemp seeds, walnuts, and other plant foods. ALA is an essential fatty acid—this means that the human body cannot synthesize it. When we take in ALA from plant foods, the body can elongate it into long-chain omega-3s: docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) and eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA), most commonly obtained by eating fish, whose tissues accumulate these fatty acids from algae or algae-consuming marine life. EPA and DHA are important for human health, especially our brain. Insufficiency of these valuable fats can cause a multitude of health issues.

Health benefits associated with long chain omega-3 fatty acids:

• DHA is a structural component of the brain at all ages
• DHA is crucial for fetal and childhood neurological and visual development
• EPA and DHA may promote healthy cognitive function, memory, and mood
• EPA and DHA may help to maintain proper regulation of the inflammatory response
• EPA and DHA may help to maintain normal lipid levels and cardiovascular health
• Supportive but not conclusive research shows that consumption of EPA and DHA omega-3 fatty acids may reduce the risk of coronary heart disease

For vegetarians and vegans, are omega-3 supplements necessary? Or are walnuts and flaxseed enough?

EPA and DHA are considered “conditionally essential” fatty acids; even though the body is capable of making them from ALA (the “parent” omega-3 fatty acid), they may be essential under some conditions because of inefficient conversion from ALA or insufficient ALA intake.¹ Conversion of ALA to EPA and DHA varies based on dietary omega-6 to omega-3 ratio, other dietary fats, alcohol consumption, gender, age and individual genetic differences.^2,3 On average, less than 4% of ALA is converted to DHA in men and approximately 9% in women; less than 8% of ALA is converted to EPA in men and up to 21% may be converted in women. Much of the ALA we take in from our diet is burned for energy, not converted to EPA and DHA.⁴ Because only ALA, not pre-formed DHA and EPA, is present in plant foods, vegans commonly have lower circulating levels of DHA than non-vegans.^3,5,6 Unless eating lots of fatty fish, the typical modern diet is low in pre-formed EPA and DHA for omnivores, vegetarians, and vegans alike. Most people eat a diet rich in omega-6 fats, but deficient in omega-3s. Many vegetarians who consume sufficient flax, hemp, chia, walnuts, and greens as a source of ALA may manufacture sufficient long-chain omega-3s on their own. However, even with an ideal diet, conversion efficiency may not be sufficient for many people to achieve optimal long-chain omega-3 status, especially for DHA.

The low long-chain omega-3 blood levels found in vegans also indicate that conversion from ALA may not produce sufficient EPA and DHA to achieve their health benefits.³ It is often the case that consuming more ALA does not guarantee sufficient DHA. For example, ALA supplementation of 2 grams/day (Adequate Intake of ALA recommended by the Institute of Medicine is 1.1 grams/day for women and 1.6 grams/day for men) was shown to produce only a very slight increase in long-chain omega-3 blood levels.⁷ Dr. Fuhrman has found similarly when testing fatty acid levels in his patients that deficiencies of these fatty acids frequently exist, even in those who eat excellent diets with plenty of ALA-rich foods.

Dr. Fuhrman's formula contains EPA in addition to DHA
DHA is certainly the most important omega-3 fatty acid to supplement, because conversion of ALA to DHA is much lower than that of EPA. However, EPA has vital functions as well, and adding a small amount in a supplement helps to assure adequacy. EPA is an important precursor to eicosanoids, molecules that regulate the inflammatory response.^8,9

Why take algae-derived supplements instead of fish or fish oil?
Fish is an unfavorable source of EPA and DHA because most fatty fish contain harmful pollutants, such as dioxin and mercury. People also report difficulty digesting fish oils because of the fishy taste and foul odor. The bad taste, indigestion, and burping from rancid oils is not healthy. Purified fish oils are an option, but our oceans are in crisis. The claims about fish benefiting heart health have increased the demand for both fish and fish oils, and this demand cannot be met by the world’s current supply. In 2003, it was estimated that the world’s large predatory fish populations had declined 90% since the 1950s.¹⁰ Farmed fish are also problematic — they are fed a diet of smaller, wild fish, driving wild fish stocks down and adding chemicals and pollutants to local waters.¹¹ Algae-based DHA+EPA is a more sustainable option, and it is free of the environmental pollutants that accumulate in the fatty tissues of fish.

Since EPA and DHA have so many crucial functions and health benefits, it is imperative to maintain adequate levels of these fatty acids.

Storage and Shipping
Dr. Fuhrman has tested other DHA and EPA products on the market and found them all to be shockingly high in rancidity scores. Rancid oils can cause burping, indigestion and a foul taste. Consuming rotten oil is not healthful so it is important to purchase a product that begins fresh and without oxidation. Special care is taken in the manufacturing and storage of Dr. Fuhrman’s DHA+EPA Purity to ensure that the oil does not become rancid or oxidized. You will certainly taste the freshness of DHA+EPA Purity when it hits your tongue.

Note: Upon receipt of product, keep refrigerated to maintain freshness.

References
1. Higdon J: Essential Fatty Acids. In An Evidence-Based Approach to Dietary Phytochemicals. New York, NY: Thieme; 2006: 78-99
2. Harnack K, Andersen G, Somoza V: Quantitation of alpha-linolenic acid elongation to eicosapentaenoic and docosahexaenoic acid as affected by the ratio of n6/n3 fatty acids. Nutr Metab 2009;6:8.
3. Davis BC, Kris-Etherton PM: Achieving optimal essential fatty acid status in vegetarians: current knowledge and practical implications. Am J Clin Nutr 2003;78:640S-646S.
4. Arterburn LM, Hall EB, Oken H: Distribution, interconversion, and dose response of n-3 fatty acids in humans. Am J Clin Nutr 2006;83:1467S-1476S.
5. Sanders TA: DHA status of vegetarians. Prostaglandins Leukot Essent Fatty Acids 2009;81:137-141.
6. Kornsteiner M, Singer I, Elmadfa I: Very low n-3 long-chain polyunsaturated fatty acid status in Austrian vegetarians and vegans. Ann Nutr Metab 2008;52:37-47.
7. Fokkema MR, Brouwer DA, Hasperhoven MB, et al: Short-term supplementation of low-dose gamma-linolenic acid (GLA), alpha-linolenic acid (ALA), or GLA plus ALA does not augment LCP omega 3 status of Dutch vegans to an appreciable extent. Prostaglandins Leukot Essent Fatty Acids 2000;63:287-292.
8. Anderson BM, Ma DWL: Are all n-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids created equal? Lipids in Health and Disease 2009;8:33.
9. Chapkin RS, Kim W, Lupton JR, et al: Dietary docosahexaenoic and eicosapentaenoic acid: emerging mediators of inflammation. Prostaglandins Leukot Essent Fatty Acids 2009;81:187-191.
10. Myers RA, Worm B: Rapid worldwide depletion of predatory fish communities. Nature 2003;423:280-283.
11. Jenkins DJA, Sievenpiper JL, Pauly D, et al: Are dietary recommendations for the use of fish oils sustainable? Can Med Assoc J 2009;180:633-637.

[Altostrata]

Please note Dr. Fuhrman is selling his own branded product.

[Happy2Heal]

Please note Dr. Fuhrman is selling his own branded product.

oh yes I know, but that does not mean that his advice and research is not valid

nor the research he sites, which is quite extensive and aligns with many other nutritional experts like Dr Micheal Gregor

 

Dr Fuhrman is NOT a vegan; Dr Gregor is.

Dr Fuhrman does not believe that everyone can or should be on a strict vegan diet, but he will point out the problems with food sources such as the toxins in fish.

 

Recommendations are now to limit the amnt of certain fish if you are pregnant because of the concerns over mercury.

 

(and also to limit how much rice you eat, because of the concerns about the amnt of arsenic in it)

it's not surprising, when we are polluting our planet the way that we have and continue to do, that these are going to be issues, even with foods that were once pure and mostly good for us.

I've been studying (informally but from some scientific sources) nutrition for over 2 decades now, and have a pretty good idea about evaluating sources and research studies

 

it's amazing that my doctor has never heard of the China Study, nor the huge Framingham Nurse's study...

and that when I called the hospital's nutritional "specialist"- they had NO advice for people on a whole foods plant based diet, let alone a vegan diet

BUT they DID have a wt loss program that involved some liquids and fasts, and several surgical options, for wt loss...

 

yes, that's right folks, doctors think a vegan diet is extreme

but surgery, no big deal.

o-KAY

:/

[Seeker53]

I take fish oil tablets and I also make our own salad dressing using hemp seed oil. It says on the side of the bottle that "hemp seed oil is the most highly nutritious efa rich oil, containing by weight: 18% omega 3, 57% omega 6, 12% omega 9." So we get an added amount when we have salad - which is quite often. This may also help vegans, if they need to increase their epa intake and are getting bored by nuts lol.

[Fresh]

Interesting . . . thanks for the tip Seeker. It's going on my shopping list !!

 

"Hemp seeds contain the most balanced and richest natural single source of essential oils for human consumption. The E.F.A.'s not only help to restore wasting bodies, but also improve damaged immune systems, so it is not so surprising that modern researchers have studied them in relationship to the modern immune attacking AIDS virus. (Eidlman, M.D., Hamilton, ED.D, Ph.D 1992).

 

Hemp oil is natures most balanced oil for human nutrition (3:1 LA to LNA ratio) and is easily digestible; in fact this oil could provide all of our Essential Fatty Acid (EFA) requirements for life, due to the balanced 80% EFA content of the oil."

[Seeker53]

Interesting . . . thanks for the tip Seeker. It's going on my shopping list !!"Hemp seeds contain the most balanced and richest natural single source of essential oils for human consumption. The E.F.A.'s not only help to restore wasting bodies, but also improve damaged immune systems, so it is not so surprising that modern researchers have studied them in relationship to the modern immune attacking AIDS virus. (Eidlman, M.D., Hamilton, ED.D, Ph.D 1992).Hemp oil is natures most balanced oil for human nutrition (3:1 LA to LNA ratio) and is easily digestible; in fact this oil could provide all of our Essential Fatty Acid (EFA) requirements for life, due to the balanced 80% EFA content of the oil."

l

 

No problems. It's also great for healing skin problems and I also put it on my dogs food ????

[Fresh]

It doesn't matter what brand if the ingredients are listed.

When you buy products like this from a naturopath or other health provider , they mark up the prices

in order to get a commission. You can find them much cheaper online or at a discount pharmacy.

 

Cheeky recently bought a 300mg Bioceutical Magnesium Blend from a practitioner for $65. The same product is avaiable on ebay in the 600mg size for $70 , with free postage.

[downtongirl]

Hey Fresh...no I understand...I had been on 1200 mg of fish oil for a while but when I saw the naturopath on Tuesday she said to change to this other fish oil at a lower dose but higher quality....I am just trying to figure out if there really is a difference in potency or not....I feel better when I take the higher dosage.  Fish oil seems to help me with brain zaps, dizziness, blurry vision, and calmness....what symptoms does it help you with?

[primekittycat]

For those of us who don't like swallowing pills (even the half-size fish pills are too big for me), I bought the Nature's Bounty brand liquid fish oil today. It actually wasn't bad. I made a face when I poured it into the tablespoon because it's thick. But I plugged my nose, swallowed it and then drank water and honestly tasted the TINIEST bit of fish, but mainly lemon. They sweeten it with xylitol. I know some have negative feelings toward this sweetener, but I honestly think the benefit outweighs the bad here. 761mg EPA and 476mg DHA per tablespoon!

[primekittycat]

Hey erer, I was surprised at how much I didn't mind it. I take back my previous recommendation for an even better one - Carlsons 'the very finest fish oil' liquid with lemon. The nature's bounty ended up being expired a month (thanks Meijer) so I returned it and got this. Doesn't taste fishy at all and was actually enjoyable.

[daveycrocket]

Hi! I thought I would comment how impressed I am with omega 3's so far. It is the *only* thing that has helped me handle withdrawal. I'm still experimenting but I'm currently @ 1500mg (epa + dha) (2 capsules) with 400mg of vitamin E. I think the first few days it caused insomnia, but that has since subsided. Within about 90 minutes of taking it in the AM, my head clears, I feel less panicky, more focused, and just have a wave of positivity. I'm excited to see how it goes.

 

Here's a link I was reading with more info: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolutionary-psychiatry/201604/is-fish-oil-beneficial-the-brain

[Jazzks]

Did anyone find fish oil helped with drawl hormonal break outs? I took fish oil and epo and it made me very oily and broke out more

[herewego]

Yay! Good to hear of another omega-3 fan, serotonin. See post #1 in this topic for some info about fish oil. I don't believe you need to take 800IU vitamin E a day, 400IU is enough to help the fish oil to work. For a lot of vitamins, more is not better. I found Trader Joe's has good-quality, strong fish oil (600mg EPA+DHA per capsule) for a very reasonable price. Get the red-label omega-3s. Good fish oil has at least 600mg EPA+DHA per capsule and says it is "molecularly distilled" or purified to remove mercury and other contaminants on the label.

Sorry I keep asking you questions - you seem to be the person to ask! Is the fish oil ok if the EPA has a lot more than the DHA but both add up to 600 total? Or is the EPA and the DHA supposed to each have 600mg to be a good pill?

[AliG]

Herewego.

 

Quote: Alto
I've seen references to the "ideal" ratio but I don't understand why it's ideal. Our bodies naturally convert EPA to DHA. They've had to use whatever fuel they've been given since humans evolved; that is, make DHA out of EPA when necessary. Fish tend to contain more EPA than DHA, which is why fish oil generally has a preponderance of EPA.

 

It seems to be the total that matters and not the individual ratio of EPA to DHA.  The quality of the supplement matters more with an addendum to add 400 IU vitamin E as well to help the fish oil stay active as you metabolize it. Apparently, a mixed tocopherol E is best .

[jevang]

are there any short or long term health risks to be concerned about with fish oil? cardiac arrythmias?

[scallywag]

jevang -- While it's better to get nutrients from food over the long term, omega 3 supplementation with fish oil is generally safe.  It is often used as a mild blood thinner and some doctors prescribe it to lower cholesterol levels. If someone is taking a blood thinner such as warfarin, they should not add fish oil without their doctor's knowledge and "green light"   The only side-effect I have from taking it is that I bruise more easily.

[jevang]

thanks scallywag, good to know that it's relatively safe in the long term

i seem to get mixed results with fish oil; that is, it seems to help with cognition and brain fog but it also causes extreme irritability and anxiety. the brand and formulation i took was nordic naturals ultimate omega. are there any alternatives to fish oil that might be helpful for brain fog in my case? perhaps krill oil? ?  anything to help me get through the health program..

[valerj83]

Hi everybody!

 

I have been using Omega 3 for some few weeks to see if it may help me with my anxiety due to WD and I have noticed my mood is a little bit better, even though my anxiety is still high depending on the days.

 

Following your recommendation I bought the Natural factors brand (EPA 400 mg, DHA 200 mg). As I know we need at least 2.000-3000EPA+DHA/ a day, what would be the quantity I would need to take? I thought I needed 2000mg EPA+ 2000 mg DHA separately (that meens 8 capsules/day), but I read some posts saying that they have to be considered all together, so maybe the 600mg x 4-5 capsules=2400mg/3000mg would be enough?

Last question: In case we don't ge enough benefits from Omega 3, should we increase the dose until we feel better? And what is the maximan dosage we shouldn't exceed?

 

Thanks!

Regards,

Valeria

[Happy2Heal]

for any other vegans out there who would like to get the benefits of omega fatty acids without worrying about mercury poisoning and all the other contaminants in today's fish and fish products you can check out the algal oils

I'm going to try this one https://www.amazon.com/Deva-Nutrition-DHA-EPA-Delayed-Release/dp/B005R5CARY/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8

 

If I could afford it, I'd go with Dr Furhman's oil because I trust his products are going to be truly pure (I also follow his diet)

https://www.drfuhrman.com/shop/products/52/dhaepa-purity

 

to see more reasons to avoid fish oil, check out the multiple videos (with transcripts below) about fish, mercury levels, etc on this site:

http://nutritionfacts.org/?fwp_search=what+is+wrong+with+fish+oil&fwp_content_type=video

 

there's an interesting video on "happy" foods:

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/foods-increase-happiness/

[JanCarol]

Algal oils are about half as effective as the fish ones.  Because they are almost pure DHA, and the brain is EPA, the best benefit from algal oils are for lowering cholesterol, and less effective for brain.  

 

I know people who are taking it for arthritis & inflammation who report that the ratio of EPA to DHA is very important.  (I think they look for high EPA, if what I'm about to report is the same thing)

 

The new ConsumerLabs report on Fish Oil is in, and as it's behind a paywall, I've retyped a teaser for your consumption here.  I'm happy to look up individual brands (post here, then send me a PM, as I don't always check in with this thread).  They rate Wal-Mart as the most affordable per daily dose, and a good quality oil (paying $$$ for better is not always true with fish oil), with Swanson a close second.  They do not always rate all brands - for example, Kirkland/Costco and Trader Joe's have been highly rated for years, but they didn't even survey them this year.

 

Naturally, ConsumerLabs is an American organization, so they do not have overseas brands.  Fish Oils in Australia are regulated by the TGA, and are usually natural triglycerides (ethyl esters are only available as "pracitioner only" or prescription), and mostly about the same. (I am now buying Kirkland/Costco, instead of "random on special" fish oils)

 

The main point I see of the Consumer Labs report is - 6000 iu /day of the cheap stuff is about where the benefits begin.  And - paying more for "the good stuff" doesn't always have benefits.  Of course, in Withdrawal, it is important to find a brand which sits well in your tummy and which doesn't react with you.

On this page of this thread, I see 2 brands which are listed, Nature's Bounty in capsules rated "approved," but they did not rate the liquid.  Natural Factors was an "approved" high concentration Ethyl Ester, and expensive at $0.27 a serve.  

 

Here are examples of why we take fish oil, from the report (edited by me for length & appropriateness - I apologize for the "diagnostic terminology" - it is not mine!):
 

 

Depression:

A possible explanation for moderate improvements in depression among those who respond to fish oil, is that fish oil increases white matter (myelinated fibers that connect brain cells) in areas of the brain which can be compromised in depression.  A small study of 16 acutely depressed adults with major depression found that those who improved over the 6 week period of taking 4000 IU fish oil daily (1600mg EPA and 800 mg DHA) 80% had increases in white matter in key brain regions.

 

Anxiety:

A study of US medical students showed,. Over 12 weeks, that those who received high-dose (high EPA)  omega-3 fatty acids had 20% reduction in anxiety symptoms compared to those receiving placebo treatment.  Treated students also had a 14% decrease in IL-6 marker of inflammation

 

Psychosis:

A year long study in adolescents & young adults (aged 13-25) identified as "at risk" for developing pyschosis found that those who took 700 mg EPA/480 mg DHA for 3 months were less likely to develop psychotic "disorder" in the nine months following treatment compared to placebo.  Of those who took the EPA and DHA, 4.9% developed symptoms compared with 27.5% in the placebo group.  In a follow-up study, 7 years after original treatment, only 10% of treatment group had developed symptoms, compared with 40$ in placebo group.  Those who took fish oil had higher psychosocial functioning and required less medication than those on placebo.

 

A study in Poland among first-episode patients (ages 16-35) found that 26 weeks of 4 capsules daily (1320 EPA / 880 DHA) 69.4% experienced a 50% improvement in symptom severity compared with 40% of placebo group.  The greatest improvements were in depressive symptoms. 

 

From behind paywall:  https://www.consumerlab.com/reviews/fish_oil_supplements_review/omega3/

 

For obvious reasons, I cannot post their entire report here, due to copyright and fair trade applications.  In fact, I will put in a plug for ConsumerLabs here - for anyone who is taking more than 4-6 supplements, the cost of the annual internet subscription of $40 is more than worth it - they have steered me clear of bad brands of red yeast rice (poor quality), CoQ10, Turmeric (also very low quality, and a huge amount of difference between worst and best!), and magnesium - and - they always list results from recent trials, including whether they were run by vitamin companies (usually they are).  They also tell you all about the recalls & lawsuits (VitaCost had a horrendous Magnesium recall & lawsuit on magnesium sold between 2010 - 2016.  I was taking that supplement!), label warnings from the USDA or faulty claims with the FDA.  

 

I am not employed by ConsumerLabs, nor is anyone in my family.

[JanCarol]

According to the article posted here:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolutionary-psychiatry/201604/is-fish-oil-beneficial-the-brain

 

The tricky thing about omega-3 supplementation is that even though DHA is the major omega-3 in the brain, DHA supplementation on its own is a total bust. EPA needs to be at least twice as high as DHA in any supplement for there to be a positive effect in depression trials. For this reason I don’t recommend DHA algae products; there’s just no data to show they are helpful. EPA is apparently needed to get the available DHA into the brain, so EPA supplementation is way more important than DHA, which leaves us with fish oil as the best source. And, truth be told, actual fish is probably the best source of all. 

 

in order for the brain to benefit, there must be twice as much EPA as DHA in order to benefit the brain, which rules out algae oils as having brain benefit.

 

(JanCarol opinion:  our brains grew to be what they are because we ate so much fish as a developing people.  Starving our brains of these EFA's is a major cause of nutritional depression!)

 

Here is (from the above article) more information on the trial quoted by ConsumerLabs:

 

Finally, I wanted to mention one of the most interesting and hopeful findings to come out of omega-3 research in the past several years from the Vienna Trial. This study used 1.2 grams of omega-3 (700 mg EPA and 480 mg DHA) supplementation for 12 weeks in teenagers and young adults with ultra high risk for developing psychotic disorders (meaning these teenagers had early signs of developing schizophrenia or bipolar disorderand also had a high genetic probability of getting the disease). After a follow up of 7 years, 10% of the omega-3 group went on to develop a full blown psychotic disorder compared with 40% of the placebo group. While the total number of subjects was small (81), the difference is statistically significant, and the risks of giving someone with high risk of psychosis a fish oil pill for 12 weeks in adolescence seems negligible compared with the possible benefit. This study gives more evidence to the idea of a "critical period" in developing certain psychotic disorders; if you manage to protect the brain during the teenage years and young adulthood with things like avoiding smoking pot and maybe supplementing omega-3s, the genetic risk of developing schizophrenia can perhaps be somewhat averted.

 

Article by Emily Deans, MD (Evolutionary Psychiatry)

[Happy2Heal]

"Algal oils are about half as effective as the fish ones.  Because they are almost pure DHA, and the brain is EPA, the best benefit from algal oils are for lowering cholesterol, and less effective for brain."

 

so why not take twice as much? will this not work?

 

 

interesting information but I don't see where it addresses contaminants and rancid oil. those are my main concerns.

I don't know what humans ate "way back when" but one thing is for sure, they didn't have to deal with all the chemicals and pollution that we do now.

 

I don't want to injure my brain further with nuerotoxins and heavy metals etc. and the idea of ingesting something rancid makes me wanna puke.

of course any oil can go bad- and I don't know where they are getting this algea from-

so frankly, I find eating and drinking anything these days to be a big gamble as far as if it's healthy or not

 

thanks for the info though. I did well on fish oil for depression some years back but the worry about what is in it, not to mention the expense, has me turned off to them for now at least.

[Altostrata]

I've been taking fairly inexpensive fish oil for many years. I've never had a problem with it, other than a couple of bottles I returned because they smelled too fishy to me.

[Happy2Heal]

I've been taking fairly inexpensive fish oil for many years. I've never had a problem with it, other than a couple of bottles I returned because they smelled too fishy to me.

Well, people eat poor diets for years, even decades without having obvious problems with it. I need a bit more to go on, something scientific and fact based.

 

I have had enough toxic stuff put into my body over the years, my goal is to put the best possible, healthiest, cleanest things possible, into my over taxed body now,

in the hopes that it still has the ability to get the bad stuff out.

 

got elevated liver levels and was told that's so common now, no one thinks twice about it.

yeh, it's not like the medical profession gives a damn :/

[JanCarol]

catnapt wrote:

 

"Algal oils are about half as effective as the fish ones.  Because they are almost pure DHA, and the brain is EPA, the best benefit from algal oils are for lowering cholesterol, and less effective for brain."

 

so why not take twice as much? will this not work?

 

If you have religious and ethical reasons for not taking fish - it's better than nothing, and may help with cholesterol management, but will likely have no benefit on nerves, brain, or inflammation.

 

Because taking twice as much will still give you an  EPA/DHA ratio that doesn't benefit the brain.  Remember, we're shooting for an EPA/DHA of around 1.5:1 for best brain effect.  That would be (in my cheap Kirkland oil) 180 mg EPA / 120 mg DHA.  I can take more and more of that, if I need to, because the ratio is right.

 

Typical algae oil (I picked one at random) is more like EPA/DHA of 324 EPA / 528 DHA, for a ratio of .61:1, which is the wrong direction for brain benefit or inflammation (a common withdrawal condition).  Less than half the needed amount of EPA.

 

Flaxseed oil (another vegetarian source of EFA's) contains ALA, which converts to EPA/DHA, but the ALA competes with other fatty acids, and is very inefficient, as well.  

 

I take 6000 iu of Fish Oil to get about 1080 mg EPA.  That's 6 big fat gel caps.  Depending on whether you are a childbearing aged woman, another woman, or a man, you will get about 8-20% conversion of  ALA to EPA.  That means (let's pretend it's 20%, if you are a childbearing aged woman, who processes ALA most efficiently) you need 5400 mg of ALA.  To get 5400 mg of ALA you need to take 10,000 iu of Flaxseed oil - which might use a lot of your energy to translate it to the EPA/DHA that you need, in the ratios that you need.  That's like, the bare minimum.  10 big fat gel caps a day (or a lot of flaxseed oil on your salad!), and more likely to be up to 25 x 1000 iu gelcaps of Flaxseed oil per day.  I don't know if I could face that!

 

And you cannot know how you are metabolizing your ALA into EPA/DHA by "feel."  You would want to monitor this with an annual OmegaQuant test (see higher up in thread, or do google search for survivingantidepressants omegaquant).

 

If I were vegetarian, and could not face the fish, this is the way I would go, but I'm past child-bearing age, and it would be difficult to face 25 gelcaps per day, if that was what was required.

 

Our own Shep (moderator), who was vegetarian most of her life, has started eating cold water fishies (like sardines) on a daily basis in order to heal her brain.  She decided that her brain was starving of EFA's - and the transformation from when she started eating fish is remarkable.  Remarkable enough that she continues eating fish, and has added (I believe) free range chicken as well.

[Happy2Heal]

I've been researching this, and it turns out that many of the things ppl believed about fish oils turn out not to be true. Kind of like a lot of what we were told about anti depressants

:/

 

but ppl are going to believe what they want to believe.

 

one person's experience is def never going to be enough evidence for me.  LOL

I am firm in wanting fact based, science based info.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Happy2Heal]

According to the article posted here:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolutionary-psychiatry/201604/is-fish-oil-beneficial-the-brain

 

The tricky thing about omega-3 supplementation is that even though DHA is the major omega-3 in the brain, DHA supplementation on its own is a total bust. EPA needs to be at least twice as high as DHA in any supplement for there to be a positive effect in depression trials. For this reason I don’t recommend DHA algae products; there’s just no data to show they are helpful. EPA is apparently needed to get the available DHA into the brain, so EPA supplementation is way more important than DHA, which leaves us with fish oil as the best source. And, truth be told, actual fish is probably the best source of all. 

 

in order for the brain to benefit, there must be twice as much EPA as DHA in order to benefit the brain, which rules out algae oils as having brain benefit.

 

(JanCarol opinion:  our brains grew to be what they are because we ate so much fish as a developing people.  Starving our brains of these EFA's is a major cause of nutritional depression!)

 

Here is (from the above article) more information on the trial quoted by ConsumerLabs:

 

 

Finally, I wanted to mention one of the most interesting and hopeful findings to come out of omega-3 research in the past several years from the Vienna Trial. This study used 1.2 grams of omega-3 (700 mg EPA and 480 mg DHA) supplementation for 12 weeks in teenagers and young adults with ultra high risk for developing psychotic disorders (meaning these teenagers had early signs of developing schizophrenia or bipolar disorderand also had a high genetic probability of getting the disease). After a follow up of 7 years, 10% of the omega-3 group went on to develop a full blown psychotic disorder compared with 40% of the placebo group. While the total number of subjects was small (81), the difference is statistically significant, and the risks of giving someone with high risk of psychosis a fish oil pill for 12 weeks in adolescence seems negligible compared with the possible benefit. This study gives more evidence to the idea of a "critical period" in developing certain psychotic disorders; if you manage to protect the brain during the teenage years and young adulthood with things like avoiding smoking pot and maybe supplementing omega-3s, the genetic risk of developing schizophrenia can perhaps be somewhat averted.

 

Article by Emily Deans, MD (Evolutionary Psychiatry)

 

 

that was a very small trial (Vienna trial)

 

I'd like to believe in a magic bullet but that's what got me in this spot in the first place.

damn pills :/

 

fish oil supplements are not without risks, and as it turns out, with my liver issues, heart issues etc I should not be taking them anyway

[scallywag]

Seven Seas Extra Strength High Strength Cod Liver oil: 10 ml (2 teaspoons) = 2300 mg EPA & DHA

Ascenta NutraSea hp: 5 ml (1 teaspoon) = 2000 EPA & DHA (1500 EPA + 500 DHA)

... and it tastes great, a lemony herbal flavour with no fish taste that I can detect

... Canadian product made from small ocean going fish such as anchovies, sardines and mackerel.

[peng]

Lakelander82 - 

I have been getting mine from here for a couple of years.  Scroll to bottom of page.

Free delivery if you buy 6 tubs.  Expensive, possibly, but they will last for months.

From Lancashire just across the Irish Sea, so close to you.

 

http://www.mind1st.co.uk/?utm_source=EmailFromMind1st&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=WhatisLeakyGut?

[scallywag]

It took a while on that site to find the Omega 3 amounts in the product peng suggested.

 

One capsule contains 300 mg EPA, no DHA, and about 22 mg GLA.

 

EPA: eicosapentaenoic acid

DHA: docosohexaenoic acid

GLA: gamma-linolenic acid

 

I wonder if folks at a health food store might be able to assist you Lakelander.  When I was looking for my product in a retail outlet, the owner of one of my regular stops said, "Oh that's a very good product -- pharmaceutical grade."  Maybe you could look/ask for "professional" lines of product?

[peng]

Yes, I take 4/day.

What's your view on no DHA, and the formulation of the product I was talked into, scallywag? - I can handle it!