CopingMechanism: Overcoming Tardive Dysphoria – where the hell do I go from here?

August 2, 2013

Dear CM:My son's post to you follows. Much of it deals with the coping mechanisms he has found for the profound somatic difficulties which he has needed to address because they have interfered with the changes he has wished to make in his inner world view.You have, as I have understood from your posts in this thread; a reliable grasp of the biological horrors, induced by these poisons. It is a tragic truth that physicians must heal themselves. Your current physiological disruptions require gentle rebalancing; as mine continue to require. Possible avenues for exploration include, but are not limited to, the following measures:Liver and pancreas are areas impacted by this Pharma disaster. Consider them "ground zero". There are also areas which have degrees of "fall out". Such as, the adrenal glands, gut, and skin. For me, addressing the areas with less fall out first, proved more effective. If you notice a lack of motivation, of "rubber to the road".... struggling to get traction, consider your kidneys a possible starting point. Please notice: thirst and urinary frequency/urgency. The lithium was particularly hard on the kidneys. Consider a reduced sodium diet to give them a much needed rest. Taking care to drink plenty of water. Carrying a water bottle keeps gulping thirst at bay; reducing muscular fatigue and cramps. Exercise, in moderation, will provide better grounding for recovery of hepatic function. Diet is crucial. Consider your gut a rusting, eroded pipeline that occasionally leaks and, thus, absorbs poorly. The water pressure in this "house", through no fault of its own, sucks. If you are like me, we have a tendency to take some good knowledge to extremes. Protein is your friend and so are good carbs. Oatmeal was a critical piece of my mornings (and continues to be essential). Eschew it in the morning at peril of the quality of sleep. Here I'm echoing insights from "selfish brain theory", which has a Wikipedia stub.....worth digesting...wink. Fungal infections are a common antecedent to unbalanced diets and unbalancing drugs. Consider your gut in a state of blight, which requires equally immediate attention and vigilant maintenance during this process. Peppermint, ginger, and vitamin C are powerful allies, to be used in moderation. At this phase, limit fruit intake to morning hours in sparing quantity with the following exception: for noon through evening snackage; berries, tomatoes, kiwis, and melons. Most of the nutritional insight I have is the result of trial and error with myself...so please take any further advice with acknowledged grain of salt. Coffee, dairy and alcohol are highly problematic. Although I don't advise rapid withdrawal from them, I do suggest a careful, measured attrition with these dietary enemies. If you find any or all of these difficult to reduce, you haven't experimented enough. I still drink coffee and eat dairy because they are more difficult challenges for me. If you experience benefit from these food/drugs, don't rock the boat, though here are some possible avenues out of the jungle: alcohol; your blood sugar is currently a high amplitude, low frequency wave....cinnamon, almonds, and good fats/ oils are powerful tools....Omega 3 is frequently emphasized because Western diets and food production methods load us with Omega 6. Canned coconut milk, Omega 3, and Omega 6 work together. Although you may have an adequate supplemental source of Omega 3, you must integrate Omega 9 for ideal results. Meal suggestion: red meat fish, sautéed in coconut oil or coconut milk with an equal helping of your favorite green vegetable (cruciferous are best, but any are good) over brown rice. Do not get behind the wheel or "operate heavy machinery" because you may experience an other-worldly exhaustion, if not the first time, with few repeated efforts. Permit yourself left-overs, if your sleep interrupts, and accept that your body has been deprived of this sleep for so long that it needs this relief. Milk/dairy; (seems particularly difficult for men). I suspect the reason is an hormonal difference, and incumbent strategy of neuroendocrinology. DHEA is a very dangerous and powerful tool I cannot, in good conscience recommend, though I have experimented with highly variable results, and consider it a volatile last resort in dealing with dairy. The moderate approach, as always, takes more time, but establishes a more lasting result. Consider, if you must, a calcium and vitamin D supplement (although I've noted you take/took a calcium supplement, and get sunlight on your walks). Much better than supplementation, as holds true for any nutritional advice, is diet management. Yogurt is best; cottage cheese (almost as good), and sour cream...just next. I have no opinion about butter, so see what works as you cook. Coffee: (this will sound strange, but true for me, as I've reduced my daily intake drastically, but haven't conquered it yet), green tea is absolutely brilliant. Pekoe or oolong get you there and Earl Grey is (seems to me) an ideal first step (or English Breakfast if you prefer). Furthermore, inter-diem calls of nature to arm ourselves with caffeine are best met with chocolate. Enjoy your favorite sort without guilt or panic. If you prefer the milky sort, only keep track of the daily dairy and sugar intake. Chilli is a wise addition to cocoa, as is nutmeg(which, as you may know, has anticholinergic properties, not to be underestimated). Be particularly careful with this "medicine" (nutmeg). If you have any doubt of its potency, dash it into a small cup of red wine (ethanol accelerates its uptake and bio-availability)...use appropriate caution. Back to Chilli...which is a promoter and mild irritant of the bowel... It also is useful as an appetite suppressant and has helped me reduce (though not eliminate) my nicotine intake for reasons I can only speculate. I am happy to provide any further experiential insights regarding somatic recovery. Please note that physical activity must be sustained but gentle. I walk an average of 1 mile daily, but suspect, for various reason (won't belabor now) that Yoga is ideal. Moving on, you have been ( as I have, and each of us on this forum) experienced a profound trauma, worthy of examination. This trauma is the stuff of nightmares. It is the very Minotaur, chasing us through our unsolved labyrinths. We were betrayed and cursed, and denied our very names. The rage you feel is a rage few, thank God, could know; however, I swear that in this nightmare (trapped within the walls of this labyrinth) with monstrous hell at your heels, you will escape, not through some deus ex machina, or some paper crane of peace, but through the floor. Your depth will blast those walls to kingdom come because beneath the rage each and every sinew of that monster is pain. You mentioned Kafka and you are changing too. Gregor Samsa had this problem too. Transformation is not some con or charlatan's alchemy. Samsa's shell was a husk he felt, because he could not worship fool's gold or false authority. Jonah too (your reference to the "belly of the beast") was stuck in a leviathan. What a horrid punishment for his unrealized self-worth! Many times I have said (aloud and in the hollows of my bashing brains), "If there is some loving God, why, oh why, have I been sent to hell"? The answer came, for me, slowly, with pins and needles, and because I dare not preach, can only say, "Have hope". You will feel joy again, even when you've forgotten how. Remember, even when you cannot see the stars by day (or even at night), that they remain as you have. Through your hell, you are intact. You are bruised, but not broken. You have been beaten, but not crippled, and you are maimed, but not murdered.Be exquisitely kind to yourself, even though you feel you don't deserve such kindness. Your courage will see you through this long and lonesome day. I will be of any help I can. If you want to PM my Dad, I have told him it would be OK for him to respond with my email address.Faithfully yours,Cal (not my real name, but the one my dad uses for me on this site)

Ed, please thank your son for this generous post.

I have a real bad relationship with food at the moment. I tried many different combinations mainly with the goal of controlling my stomach symptoms in 2011-2012 and nearly drove myself into an eating disorder.

I'll adress diet a little more later.

Sorry, my responses are a little short handed right now....

August 3, 2013

Please see our topics on sleep in the Symptoms and Self-care forum.

Ed, thanks for posting Cal's excellent advice.

August 3, 2013

Please see our topics on sleep in the Symptoms and Self-care forum.Ed, thanks for posting Cal's excellent advice.

Thanks for the heads up.

There's some stuff in there I hadn't tried.

Melatonin worked well for awhile but then pooped out. Will be trying phosphatidylserine and niacinamide soon.

August 3, 2013

Dear CM:

Cal mentioned that if you wanted to expand on what you meant by "eating disorder", he might have some suggestions. He is concerned about the lack of sleep because it has provided some real problems for him in the past. When it was at its worst, he went to see a nutritional specialist in New York (a Phd, for what that's worth). She suggested a 200 mg capsule of GABA, broken and emptied under the tongue 15 minutes before bedtime. This was not to be a regular solution, just a rescue operation. He did it for three nights running and it worked very well. After that his sleep was not great but OK (taking the GABA or not was inconsequential). I know that ingested GABA doesn't cross the brain barrier, but presume that adding GABA to blood plasma leaves more of its constituent elements available on the other side of the bbb. For whatever reason, and believe me, Cal is not suggestible, it broke the no sleep pattern. If Cal's response, and mine, seem unduly tied to the somatic, it is because we each have seen that, for him anyway, he can address the mental, emotional, spiritual issues if he can keep the somatic problems at bay. You mentioned once that you were considering using meds to get things back to a level you could deal with. As much as I wholely support individual choice; My personal opinion is that except when one is just a little time off, and suffering withdrawal, medication is not the best option. Psychiatrists seem to me to be a bunch of monkeys trying to adjust a pocket watch with sledgehammers. My personal reaction is "no thank you". You are obviously a very bright guy. You'll figure out the way back. I can't wait to hear of your recovery.

Be well,

Ed

January 4, 2014

This topic might not still be active, but this thread came up when I Googled "Tardive dysphoria" and I was so excited to find a fellow sufferer of gastroparesis that I did a little dance.

Not that I'm happy you have gastroparesis, CopingMechanism, it sucks, it's just that I have suspected there is a connection between SSRIs and gastroparesis for some time, and we seem to be going through some of the same awful, awful stuff, and I have felt so lonely dealing with drugs and depression, so reading your posts was very comforting to me.

Hello!

January 4, 2014

Hello, Nousagi. Please start an Introductions topic for yourself.

Gastroparesis has been reported in associated with going on and off psychiatric drugs. The drugs are widespread hormonal disruptors.

April 30, 2014

Firing off a distress flare here.

Still no real progress in terms of windows or general improvments to health, regrettably. Gastroparesis is still very bad and the nausea, pain, fatigue, brain fog and tardive dysphoria symptoms prevent me from getting a thing done or being able to be more functional and get out into the world.

Have finally recieved a definitive CFS/ME diagnosis, and consultant agreed it was likely precipitated (or at least it was the straw that broke the camel's back) by previous heavy and sloppy AD use and withdrawl. He prescribes them regulalry but conceeded some react badly.

Insomnia is/has been as mericless as ever- it was literally going to kill me; and regrettabley I've succumbed to regular diazepam use just to get some respite and a few extra hours sleep. I am now scared I am dependent and will go through withdrawl and I don't think I'm strong enough anymore to bear that anymore after all I've gone through.

I've been on 10mg 3 times a week (not every night mind) for the last 4 months. I need to get off these and seek alterntaives (but what?). Sleep specialists I have seen (3 of them now) have ranged from useless to sympathetic about my 'complex' case but without Ideas none the less. Most suggsested trycyclic AD's and one suggested seroquel. Go figure.

I've tried all the reccomendations for sleep in self care, so truly feel I am completley at sea in this terrible storm and I quite scared there is only going to be one option for me....

Any ideas how I should go about safely reducing benzo use? Should I follow as outlined in Heather Ashton's manual or do the 10% gradual withdrawls.

Any advice, well-wishes or prayers would be sincerely appreciated.

Jack

April 30, 2014

Hello Jack and welcome back again,

I didn't have the time to read your story from the beginning but jus wanted to let you know that you have been heard. I'm also very sorry that you have been feeling so unwell for so long.

When you are asking about tapering benzos there is a sub/forum for members here on that topic so you can start a thread there.

From what I know, Ashton manual is way too fast. You will get a lot of great advice on the benzo sub - forum as I did.

So your main problem now is insomnia? You can write more about this and how you have been feeling in general.

best,

bubble

May 1, 2014

Hi Jack,

I just read through your thread and I'm so sorry for everything you have been through, and for what you are still dealing with. I wish I could offer something helpful. I didn't know what Gastroparesis was, so did some research, I can't imagine how you are dealing with it on top of withdrawal issues, have any of the dietary changes helped at all?

You asked about benzo tapering, Bubble is right about getting support for that on the sub-forum, link here:

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/forum/29-members-only-benzo-tapering-discussion/

.... but if you have only been taking them 3 times a week, you might not have a dependency on them and might not need to taper. But if you stop taking them, you will still be left with your original problem of not getting enough sleep. Do you find that they help with sleep when you do take them? Its actually not good to take them irregularly like you have been, especially while in withdrawal, they can cause daytime interdose anxiety.

In general, how much sleep were you getting? Insomnia, caused by protracted withdrawal is very common, and can be one of the last symptoms to disappear, there are many people here struggling on just a few hours sleep per night.

I wish I could be more helpful, hang in there Jack and post when you need support.

Petu.

May 1, 2014

Valium has long acting metabolites, three times a week is plenty to develop dependence, and the timing is perfect to be experiencing (ironically) interdose withdrawal. (I say "ironically" because the Ashton method is to transition to Valium from shorter-acting benzos in order to avoid interdose withdrawal from stuff that wears off in a matter of hours. Interdose withdrawal is where the roller coaster of the blood levels going up and down causes withdrawal symptoms whenever they go down.)

In other words by taking Valium every two or three days you may be inducing withdrawal symptoms in yourself. Insomnia is probably the most prominent and noticeable symptom of Valium withdrawal for most people, but anxiety and a general sense of unease and unhappiness is common as well. (Actually, for me, the drug itself causes me to feel like crap too.)

In my opinion you'd be better off taking a small amount daily, getting stable steady-state blood levels, then tapering very slowly.

If you'd like to discuss this more please start a thread in the benzo area. (If you haven't already--I haven't checked that area yet today...)

May 1, 2014

Thanks so much for the replies, everyone.

I am brain-fogged and bed bound at the mo and am having difficulty writing coherently so will get round to individual responses when I feeling a little more lucid.

May 1, 2014

I think maybe using/stabilsing on 2.5mg every night and tapering from there might the best idea in what seems a no-mans land in terms of the ideal solution.

Insomnia is an omnipresent scroug in most CFS/ME patients, and I think that, plus protracted withdrawl from my AD use, plus circadian dysregulation, plus the pain from my gastroparesis (I get nausea and pain at night, and unsurprisingly it isn't conducive to sleep), plus maybe I'm already in benzo dependence are creating a perfect storm and is what prevents me from sleeping properly. Thing is, even if I dropped the diazepam I'd still sleep have my sleep problems, but what's a person to do in my situation other than stop adding fuel to the fire.....

Ironically CFS/ME docs often tell people to use meds to help them sleep.

http://phoenixrising.me/treating-cfs-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-me/the-first-symptom-sleep/treating-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-mecfs-and-fibromyalgia-a-prescription-for-sleep

May 1, 2014

Hello Jack and welcome back again,

I didn't have the time to read your story from the beginning but jus wanted to let you know that you have been heard. I'm also very sorry that you have been feeling so unwell for so long.

When you are asking about tapering benzos there is a sub/forum for members here on that topic so you can start a thread there.

From what I know, Ashton manual is way too fast. You will get a lot of great advice on the benzo sub - forum as I did.

So your main problem now is insomnia? You can write more about this and how you have been feeling in general.

best,

bubble

Hey Bubble,

Thank you very much for the kind words, sincerely appreciated.

I feel insomnia is the keystone in all of this. If I could just get better sleep I could probably 'heal' across the board.

Thing is, it's all a vicious cycle. I can't sleep because of protrated withdrawl and CFS/ME, no sleep makes me even more depressed, anxious, irritable and suicidal. The preceeding emotions and states decimate my ability to function normally and get things done during the day and it's vital that I try and go out and shop for good foods and be able to prep and cook them correctly so I can digest them okay as diet is about the only way I have of controlling my gastoparesis symptoms. If I have bad nausea at night, I won't sleep. Diazepam was recently allowing me to get a few hours extra sleep but I may now be dependent on that, so it seems I was forced to take out a loan I couldn't pay back but I feel like I had no other option. Madness.......

The avatar I have is of the mythical snake Ouroboros, the snake that eats it's own tale. That's the appropiate metaphoer I'm feeling right now. And as far as metaphors go, it seems fairly appropiate in it's sheer insanity and difficulty in untangling itself.

May 1, 2014

Yes, many of us have that difficulty with sleep and feeling better. Please see the Symptoms and Self-care forum for topics about this.

May 1, 2014

Hi Jack,

I just read through your thread and I'm so sorry for everything you have been through, and for what you are still dealing with. I wish I could offer something helpful. I didn't know what Gastroparesis was, so did some research, I can't imagine how you are dealing with it on top of withdrawal issues, have any of the dietary changes helped at all?

You asked about benzo tapering, Bubble is right about getting support for that on the sub-forum, link here:

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/forum/29-members-only-benzo-tapering-discussion/

.... but if you have only been taking them 3 times a week, you might not have a dependency on them and might not need to taper. But if you stop taking them, you will still be left with your original problem of not getting enough sleep. Do you find that they help with sleep when you do take them? Its actually not good to take them irregularly like you have been, especially while in withdrawal, they can cause daytime interdose anxiety.

In general, how much sleep were you getting? Insomnia, caused by protracted withdrawal is very common, and can be one of the last symptoms to disappear, there are many people here struggling on just a few hours sleep per night.

I wish I could be more helpful, hang in there Jack and post when you need support.

Petu.

Hey Petu,

Thank you very much for the kind words and encouragment, they really do mean a'lot.

Getting about 4 hrs sleep, but with at least 4-5 mini awakenings per night. Big problem is with getting off to sleep, and will have horrible early morning awakenings despite still feeling exhausted. I had a sleep study done to confirm/show some of this, but that was really only done to rule out any other pathology really - RLS, sleep apnea etc. As mentioned before, shrugging of shoulders by the sleep docs and reccomendations of more drugs....

Gastroparesis can only be controlled by thoroughly cooking, and then blending or pureeing most of my foods as my stomach has very limited peristalsis and I need to just let gravity do the work and let the food slowly drip through to the pylorous to the small intrstine as opposed to having the stomach contract it into there for me. As you can imagine, I could have really done without this additional burden.

Where in Oz are you based? I live in Sydney for 4 months in 2008 when I was 21 and then did a road trip up the East coast to Cairns, good times. That was the last year before psychiatry sank their teeth into my neck. That all seems like it was in a previous life compared to now....

May 1, 2014

Current sleep supplements/aids are as follows:

Melatonin: 3mg

Clonidine - 25mcg (been tapering off this for a few months from 0.2mg)

Milk peptide - 150mg

Theanine - 150mg

Magnesium malate - 400mg

Seriphos - 1000mg

I follow general sleep hygiene principles such as not using computer, phone or TV past 2100. I try and not use my bed during the day, but some days I need to rest/lay on my bed during the day due to symptoms/exhaustion. In a perfect world, I'd stay out of my bedroom all day and wouldn't go near my bed but my living situation and health constraints make that impossible right now.

More info/data coming soon.

May 1, 2014

How long have you been taking each one? Which do you think are effective?

Keeping your bedroom cool and very dark is helpful, too.

May 2, 2014

was thinking about your insomnia as well.

The only other possibly useful thing I was able to remember apart from what everyone else has written is something I remember reading on Wulfgar's thread: he was/is suffering from insomnia and swears in having managed to add more hours of sleep to his night with the help of Vitamin D. (He lives in the seriously sun deprived part of the world).

Not sure it helps but might be worth checking out plus I had no better ideas

I'm glad you are back with us.

May 2, 2014

How long have you been taking each one? Which do you think are effective?

Keeping your bedroom cool and very dark is helpful, too.

Hey AltoStrata,

Been taking this combo for aboout a year.

Individually, none of them do anything too profound. It's only when I use them all together do I get some sedation.

Yeah, my bedroom is as dark as a crypt. I installed blackout curtains and even put an old towel at the bottom of my door to prevent the early morning light from the hallway window seeping through.

I have temperature sensitivity since withdrawl (particularly feeling cold much more easily) so prefer to keep the place warm.

May 2, 2014

was thinking about your insomnia as well.

The only other possibly useful thing I was able to remember apart from what everyone else has written is something I remember reading on Wulfgar's thread: he was/is suffering from insomnia and swears in having managed to add more hours of sleep to his night with the help of Vitamin D. (He lives in the seriously sun deprived part of the world).

Not sure it helps but might be worth checking out plus I had no better ideas

I'm glad you are back with us.

Hey bubble,

Yeah I take vit D 5000iu in the morning in the am. Maybe I'll see if moving it to the evening has an effect.

I'll check out Wulfgar's thread. Thanks for the heads up.

May 2, 2014

Dragged my sleep-deprived carcass up to London today to go to hospital to have a hydrogen breath test for SIBO:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_intestinal_bacterial_overgrowth

My gastro doc said it would be worth checking out and treating if positive as it frequently occurs as a complication of gastroparesis.

Meh, if it helps my GI symptoms some then I guess it's worth a punt. Hesitant about antibiotics though, we'll see. Maybe I'll use herbals instead.

May 2, 2014

Please take vitamin D earlier in the day. It is a daytime hormone.

May 4, 2014

Horrible night.

I think I am defienelty in dependence territory with diazepam now.

Wen't without for 4 days without it and was feeling no worse than usual but felt very agitated late last night and had to take 10mg to calm me down. Yesterday was as miserable as any other but I can't see anything else that could have triggered the agitation; in fact, I went for a peaceful 2 hr drive in the Essex countryside that evening to get awat from it all and try and try and see a few sunsets and was glad I was able to do that. But come late evening, boom, agitation.

I'm going to stabilise on 10mg ED and then work out the best way to taper from there. Also had to abandon clonidine taper and went back up to 0.2mg. I was a mess.

This is so frustrating.

Ain't found a way to kill me yet
Eyes burn with stinging sweat
Seems every path leads me to nowhere

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0FAosDi4XA

May 4, 2014

Also trying to get my head around the whole MTHFR/methylation subject to see if that's worth a go.

My understanding is if you have MTHFR mutation you should avoid folic acid and supplement with methylcobolamin B12?

Geez, this is too much for my addled brain.

Jack

May 4, 2014

Don't worry CM, I can't understand this either (if it's any consolation

Petu is doing extensive research into the topic and explaining it as clearly as it is possible in her thread. What I was able to understand is that folic acid is bad and that we should go for folate and that's why I started eating raw spinach from my mom's garden mixed in my lettuce. After that realisation, my brain just stopped

Re benzos, please try to start your own thread in our benzo sub-forum. I also don't know how else to explain the agitation which happened after you stopped taking them rather than WD...

Maybe it would also be useful to put all supplements and medication you are taking in however small doses and however infrequently in your signature (as Petu did). As I keep repeating these days, the devil is in the details and when our CNS is saw raw and sensitive everything can rub it the wrong way.

I'm glad you treated yourself to that ride!

May 5, 2014

Don't worry CM, I can't understand this either (if it's any consolation

Petu is doing extensive research into the topic and explaining it as clearly as it is possible in her thread. What I was able to understand is that folic acid is bad and that we should go for folate and that's why I started eating raw spinach from my mom's garden mixed in my lettuce. After that realisation, my brain just stopped

Hi Jack,

Here at SA, we don't support the biochemical imbalance theory of mental illness and so beyond recommending several supplements which seem to be helpful for many people going through drug withdrawal, I can't really comment about individualized nutrient therapy, even though personally, I do think there is some potential in this new science.

But as Bubble said, its very complex, I don't think I'm doing a good job of explaining it in my thread and what I do write there isn't intended for anyone else. I'm just trying to document what I'm learning about myself related to what supplements I've been trying. Tapering, withdrawal and nervous system instability is complicated enough, without adding in the confusion of trying lots of different supplements.

I've been off all medications for a year now, without a great deal of improvement, so this is why I've started looking for ways to possibly help my recovery along. But I struggle to understand what I'm learning because it seems the more I learn, the more I realize just how much we don't understand about the way our bodies work.

It seems that a significant minority of people worldwide, up to 40% have one of several kinds of MTHFR gene mutations and have problems with folic acid, which is the synthetic kind and do better with foods which contain the natural version (folate), like leafy green vegetables. Unfortunately, most combination vitamin formulas contain folic acid (the synthetic kind). Folic acid is now added to a lot of processed cereal products these days.

Some people are vitamin B12 deficient, and there seems to be a connection with MTHFR regarding which kind of B12 can be absorbed, but I don't understand this.

Here is a topic about methylation, B vitamins and MTHFR:

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/5547-the-importance-of-methylation-and-b-vitamins/?hl=mthfr

If you do decide to try any new supplements, please only add one at a time and start with a very low dose, a sensitized nervous system can react to just a fraction of the recommended dose.

Please would you add the diazepam and dose information to your signature.

The drive in the countryside sounds lovely, I have relatives who live in Essex. I think you need to focus on stabilizing by taking the same doses of your medications every day at the same time, by taking care of yourself the best you can, doing what you can to relax, minimize stress and letting your nervous system settle down.

Petu.

May 5, 2014

Don't worry CM, I can't understand this either (if it's any consolation

Petu is doing extensive research into the topic and explaining it as clearly as it is possible in her thread. What I was able to understand is that folic acid is bad and that we should go for folate and that's why I started eating raw spinach from my mom's garden mixed in my lettuce. After that realisation, my brain just stopped

Re benzos, please try to start your own thread in our benzo sub-forum. I also don't know how else to explain the agitation which happened after you stopped taking them rather than WD...

Maybe it would also be useful to put all supplements and medication you are taking in however small doses and however infrequently in your signature (as Petu did). As I keep repeating these days, the devil is in the details and when our CNS is saw raw and sensitive everything can rub it the wrong way.

I'm glad you treated yourself to that ride!

Hello Bubble,

Yes, will start a benzo discussion thread with regards to the best course of action when I am feeling a little more coherent.

Will also note my supps too soon.

Sorry for the short answers, have felt terrible today. Due to the usual problems, plus some other recent sad news in my personal life and am finding it very hard to concentrate and focuse.

May 5, 2014

Don't worry CM, I can't understand this either (if it's any consolation

Petu is doing extensive research into the topic and explaining it as clearly as it is possible in her thread. What I was able to understand is that folic acid is bad and that we should go for folate and that's why I started eating raw spinach from my mom's garden mixed in my lettuce. After that realisation, my brain just stopped

Hi Jack,

Here at SA, we don't support the biochemical imbalance theory of mental illness and so beyond recommending several supplements which seem to be helpful for many people going through drug withdrawal, I can't really comment about individualized nutrient therapy, even though personally, I do think there is some potential in this new science.

But as Bubble said, its very complex, I don't think I'm doing a good job of explaining it in my thread and what I do write there isn't intended for anyone else. I'm just trying to document what I'm learning about myself related to what supplements I've been trying. Tapering, withdrawal and nervous system instability is complicated enough, without adding in the confusion of trying lots of different supplements.

I've been off all medications for a year now, without a great deal of improvement, so this is why I've started looking for ways to possibly help my recovery along. But I struggle to understand what I'm learning because it seems the more I learn, the more I realize just how much we don't understand about the way our bodies work.

It seems that a significant minority of people worldwide, up to 40% have one of several kinds of MTHFR gene mutations and have problems with folic acid, which is the synthetic kind and do better with foods which contain the natural version (folate), like leafy green vegetables. Unfortunately, most combination vitamin formulas contain folic acid (the synthetic kind). Folic acid is now added to a lot of processed cereal products these days.

Some people are vitamin B12 deficient, and there seems to be a connection with MTHFR regarding which kind of B12 can be absorbed, but I don't understand this.

Here is a topic about methylation, B vitamins and MTHFR:

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/5547-the-importance-of-methylation-and-b-vitamins/?hl=mthfr

If you do decide to try any new supplements, please only add one at a time and start with a very low dose, a sensitized nervous system can react to just a fraction of the recommended dose.

Please would you add the diazepam and dose information to your signature.

The drive in the countryside sounds lovely, I have relatives who live in Essex. I think you need to focus on stabilizing by taking the same doses of your medications every day at the same time, by taking care of yourself the best you can, doing what you can to relax, minimize stress and letting your nervous system settle down.

Petu.

Hello Petu,

Sorry up front for the short reply. I've had a horrible day.

Yes, the methylation stuff is way out of my head and it seems no one has any real clear model of what's really going on. So I'm waiting for a clearer picture.

Will list my supps soon. Most of them are not problematic though as far as I can ascertain.

Going to stabilise on 5mg of diazepam and go from there, I think.

May 5, 2014

Healing/feel good song of the day:

The Doors - Indian Summer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ly6C8hIEz-s

(One day, I will endeavour to work out how to embed youtube videos)

May 6, 2014

I noticed that one of the supplements you take at night is L-theanine, a derivative of green tea. I personally found that supplement to be over-stimulating and had to stop it after just a few days. It took me at least a week to get over the effects. Also, even decaffeinated drinks can be too much, keeping me awake at night, if I drink them late in the day or during the evening. You may already know this, but decaffeinated drinks aren't totally decaffeinated. Even though I'm pretty much done with withdrawal, it looks like I may be over-sensitized to stimulants for a few more years at least. (Also please heed Alto's advice about taking Vitamin D during the day, too.)

Darkening my bedroom and wearing a sleep mask helped me immensely at the beginning of withdrawal. I went from being unable to sleep for two to three days at a time to getting about six hours of sleep a night. I mark that as the beginning of my healing.

May 6, 2014

L-theanine is for calming in the daytime.

May 7, 2014

Jemima & Alstostrata,

I'm unsure if the L-theanine does much at all really. I'm just throwing all the 'relaxing' supplments I can at myself in the PM, really. I feel so sh*tty all the time from so many different variables it's so hard to figure out what exactly is causing what.

One study showed it improved subjective sleep qulaity in boys with ADHD.

http://www.altmedrev.com/publications/16/4/348.pdf

But I suppose we as a withdrawl population cohort are in a different boat. So yeah, different nervous system kettle of fish.

I'll try it in the AM and see what if any effect I get. And if it's stimulating then that'll be lesson learned. Though I do know I don't feel stimmed off it in the evening already...

I drink one cup of black tea in the morning as soon as I wake up - which as sad as it sounds is about on of the only things I enjoy during my day. I stopped coffee a year or so ago, which positivley was agitating. Have dropped caffeine in toto before for a month or so, but didn't get a positive benefit so have decddied to keep my morning tea.

I am currently still writing up a benzo strategy post to post in that sub-forum. Watch this space.

May 10, 2014

Ugh, just feel like such a zombie. Can't think straight and can't I sleep. I need the latter to engender the former.

Need to get a plan down with regarding a benzo taper and figure out the best treatment for sleep but feel lost at sea.

Still, gotta keep rowing. Even if I'm in fog and don't have a compass.

May 10, 2014

That's such a nice description of a terrible situation all of us here have been in.

I just thought to myself, even if I'm a zombie, I'm healing, it's happening somewhere behind all this.

We are waiting you in the benzo subsection but take your time. You are doing everything you can and the results will come. It's great that you keep on rowing even in the fog and without a compass.

May 12, 2014

Posted about benzo reduction.

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/6362-benzo-useinsomnia-complication-%E2%80%93-a-difficult-conundrum/

May 12, 2014

Just reading this page, don't have your full background. I just had an interesting L-theanine experience...my husband called me manic, pdoc said the right word was agitated. It somehow increases both GABA and dopamine. People without ADHD are going to have sleep problems with increasing their dopamine at night (even some with ADHD probably would...assuming it exists).

I have been googling all these nutrient things a lot, and even am going to fly to a clinic...a big risk. My take right now is that if you don't have access to bloodwork and someone to make sense of it, your best bet is a Joel Fuhrman book, the End of Dieting is the latest (although I am not vegan). Someone else advised the Page Diet, which is similar.

CopingMechanism: Overcoming Tardive Dysphoria – where the hell do I go from here?

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