Athena: journey through depression and antidepressants ...

[RichT]

6 hours ago, Athena said:

@ChessieCat Thank you for the link but of course I have been through that thread in its entirety, tried avery single tip and almost avery supplement.

 

I now take imovan or a benzo at leadt onece a week when there have been too many unbearable nights... Tis sitution is UNBEARABLE to me I fear for my life, smething needs to hapen really really soon.

Can inmcreasing my dose help with the insomnia? To how much? 2? 2.5? 3?

I can't go on like this I really really need help or advice please.

 

 Hi Athena,

 

I’m so sorry you’re in this situation. But you needn’t fear for your life. Your insomnia will not be fatal.

 

sending you warmest wishes,

 

Rich

[Altostrata]

Hello, Athena. What are you taking now, at what times of day, at what dosages? What is your sleep schedule?

[Athena]

4 hours ago, brassmonkey said:

Looking through the list of supplements that you're taking raises some questions.  Every on of the sleep inducing ones is only effective for a limited time.  They then poopout and in several cases become paradoxical. Also they are only good for inducing sleep to start, not for sustaining it throughout the night. I know it will be rough to give them up, but you might try giving them up for a while and let your body adjust to not having them

Which supplements specifically are you thinking of? valericalm mix and scullcap tincture?

 

4 hours ago, brassmonkey said:

Can you nap throughout the day?  Sometimes it is best to just grab what sleep you can when you can.  How about falling asleep on the couch while watching TV. 

I often lie down during the day, sometimes sleep a little but not often, other than that can't really fall asleep if I haven't taken magnesium and melatonin.

 

Thank you @brassmonkey and @RichT for your support

[Athena]

2 hours ago, Altostrata said:

Hello, Athena. What are you taking now, at what times of day, at what dosages? What is your sleep schedule?

 

Hi Alto.  

-when I get out of bed in the morning: half of my cytomel dose (12.5mcg) with probiotics

-after breakfast: 1.6mg Paxil

                             1000mg Camu Camu vit.C and

                             1000 IU vit D

-Around 1PM: other half of cytomel (12.5mcg)

-Around 2PM (after lunch) : 500mg Camu Camu vit C 

                           one teaspoon Omega-3 fish oil
 

-Around 9PM : 1mg melatonin

                          3 capsules of 130mg elemental magnesium (from 1000mg magnesium bisglycinate),

                          one tablet of the Chinese Suan Zao Ren which contain mostly jujube seeds (started only recently)

 

-Around 10:30 PM when getting to bed: one 81mg aspirin or one regular Advil (both help just a bit with sciatic pain but mainly for sleep)

                                                               2ml Skullcap tincture

 

-When I wake up during the night: a 4th capsule of magnesium bisglycinate

                                                            200mg L-theanine

                                                            one 150mg capsule of milk peptides

                                                            3-4ml of the ValeriCalm tincture mix

 

About once a week now when I can't get back to sleep after only 2 or 3 hours of sleep, I take 7.5 mg Imovan. It used to be much less frequent than that, I feel my strenght is leaving me.

Also when I have had 2 or 3 really bad nights in a row (by that point I am very panicky) I take 45mg oxazepam at the beginning of the next night. I have done this maximum 5 times in the last year. However right now I feel that if there isn't a change soon I will slide towards more of that to stop myself from hurting myself.

 

My sleep varies a lot. I get to bed around 10:30-10:45 PM. It takes between 20 min to 1 hour to get to sleep I guess but I don't look at the clock. I wake up between 1:30 AM and 3AM but more often closer to 1:30. I take the other stuff, sometimes get back to sleep within an hour or two for another about 2-3h, sometimes no. Sometimes I can fall asleep by the end of the night/early morning, sometimes no. However I am so exhausted in the morning that I can't get out of bed before 9AM. So I get anything between 2h to 6h maybe 7, but ALWAYS fragmented. I would say I sleep an average of 3-4h total but I don't have any device to record or anything. I always lie down during the day because of exhaustion, rarely can sleep then but it happens sometimes a bit.

 

I hope this is clear for you. Thank you Alto for your help.

[brassmonkey]

 Melatonin 1mg, 81mg Milk peptides, L-theanine, Valericalm tincture mix, scullcap tincture, Suan Zao Ren (jujube seeds)

 

Pretty much all of them.  Valerian and Skullcap are known to go into tolerance after a few weeks of use and need to be tapered.  Melatonin can go paradoxical after long term use, as can milk peptides and L-theanine.

 

They all, in some way, interact with serotonin and can cause problems in that manner.

[Blondiee1915]

Hi Athena,

 

I see that you take cytomel T3 hormone.  Have you had your thyroid levels checked recently?  How are your levels? 

 

B 

[Altostrata]

Blondiee beat me to it. Too much thyroid hormone can cause sleeplessness. Could be you need a custom compounded mix.

 

What time in the morning do you take Paxil? Do you feel any different afterwards?

 

Do you feel any different after taking your afternoon Cytomel? Why do you take it on that schedule?

 

Magnesium is best taken in small doses throughout the day, not 3 capsules at once.

 

18 hours ago, Athena said:

My sleep varies a lot. I get to bed around 10:30-10:45 PM. It takes between 20 min to 1 hour to get to sleep I guess but I don't look at the clock. I wake up between 1:30 AM and 3AM but more often closer to 1:30. I take the other stuff, sometimes get back to sleep within an hour or two for another about 2-3h, sometimes no. Sometimes I can fall asleep by the end of the night/early morning, sometimes no. However I am so exhausted in the morning that I can't get out of bed before 9AM. So I get anything between 2h to 6h maybe 7, but ALWAYS fragmented.

 

This indicates to me that the melatonin, at least, is not a problem. Can't tell what the other supplements are doing.

[Athena]

On 6/18/2019 at 9:10 PM, brassmonkey said:

 Melatonin 1mg, 81mg Milk peptides, L-theanine, Valericalm tincture mix, scullcap tincture, Suan Zao Ren (jujube seeds)

 

Pretty much all of them.  Valerian and Skullcap are known to go into tolerance after a few weeks of use and need to be tapered.  Melatonin can go paradoxical after long term use, as can milk peptides and L-theanine.

 

They all, in some way, interact with serotonin and can cause problems in that manner.

 

I have in the past tried different combinations that were lighter, and without the ValeriCalm or Skullcap and it wasn't better... It seems like damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[Athena]

On 6/19/2019 at 9:21 AM, Blondiee1915 said:

I see that you take cytomel T3 hormone.  Have you had your thyroid levels checked recently?  How are your levels? 

 

 

On 6/19/2019 at 2:52 PM, Altostrata said:

Blondiee beat me to it. Too much thyroid hormone can cause sleeplessness. Could be you need a custom compounded mix.

 

What time in the morning do you take Paxil? Do you feel any different afterwards?

 

Do you feel any different after taking your afternoon Cytomel? Why do you take it on that schedule?

 

 

Thank you Blondiee and Alto for your inputs. I have spent almost all of 2018 trying different combinations of thyroid meds: cytomel only but less, less cytomel with different levels of synthroid, less cytomel with NDT... Every time my state worsened and my sleep ended up worse.

 

Dealing with thyroid stuff is so complicated... Right now my T3 is in the higher normal after I take my first dose. Some say this is perfect, some say this is low because you should test without having taken any thyroid meds. Some say it's a bit high. My T4 is lower than normal, but TSH is perfect. But bottom line, every time I change something there I end up worse with panic attacks so I just went back to what my dose had been for the last 10 years with never any problem.

 

I take cytomel twice a day because it's T3 only and T3 has a very short action. They say this is the best way to use it, some people even take 3 times a day with their latest dose later in the day. I used to take it all at once upon waking and my sleep wasn't better.

 

I don't feel anything particular after taking the paxil or the cytomel.

 

Is there a chance updosing my paxil would help me sleep?

 

Thank you.

[brassmonkey]

Updosing the paxil probably won't do much for your sleep.

[Altostrata]

There are a lot of moving parts here. What time of day do you take Paxil?

 

1 hour ago, Athena said:

But bottom line, every time I change something there I end up worse with panic attacks so I just went back to what my dose had been for the last 10 years with never any problem.

 

Did you ever take a reduced amount of Cytomel, such as 12mcg instead of 12.5mcg per dose? Or have you been sticking with the available tablet dosages?

[Athena]

29 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

here are a lot of moving parts here. What time of day do you take Paxil?

 

I take Paxil around 11Am-Noon

 

29 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

Did you ever take a reduced amount of Cytomel, such as 12mcg instead of 12.5mcg per dose? Or have you been sticking with the available tablet dosages?

 

Last year when we were testing the doses I was put on the 5mcg tablets. I did the 10mcg +10mcg. I might have tried half a 5mcg tablet, so 12.5 +10, but not sure (22.5 a day). I don't know if that improved or worsened though, didn't stay on it long enough. I never tried such a small reduction as 24mcg a day. I'm so scared to touch anything now, at one point I had no sleep one night, 2h the other night...

[Altostrata]

Between the time you take Paxil and the time you take your earlier Cytomel, do you feel any different from the Paxil?

 

If you didn't give a Cytomel dosage adjustment a real try, I'm at a loss to eliminate that as a cause of your sleep problem. We always urge people to keep notes during dosage changes so they can see what happens.

[Athena]

6 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

Between the time you take Paxil and the time you take your earlier Cytomel, do you feel any different from the Paxil?

I'mnot sure I understnd the question. I don't feel any different from taking paxil or cytomel.

 

7 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

 

 

If you didn't give a Cytomel dosage adjustment a real try, I'm at a loss to eliminate that as a cause of your sleep problem. We always urge people to keep notes during dosage changes so they can see what happens.

I'm not sure I understand. I was asked by doctors to reduce to 12.5 by 5mch increments, I did. I know that the time that I was at 20mcg, the sleep wasn't worse, but it wasn't better either, so I kept on decreasing. But I stayed 2 weeks each, don't know if thats enough in terms of thyroid. But I didn't understand I had to go as slow as AD decrease. I did take notes but my brain had been a mess for 2 years, I did what I could.

[Athena]

I am really unwell and dizzyy right now. will try to find my notes and hopfuly have something clearer tomoreow

[Altostrata]

13 minutes ago, Athena said:

I know that the time that I was at 20mcg, the sleep wasn't worse, but it wasn't better either, so I kept on decreasing.

 

How far below 12.5mcg per dose did you go?

[Athena]

 

28 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

How far below 12.5mcg per dose did you go?

 

I will talk in total daily dosage because sometimes the 2 dosages were not the same and it gets confusing. I went down to 12.5mcg daily, once without T4, once with a synthroid "compensation". Both times it was hell when I got down to there, like my adrenals were compensating big time, no sleep and huge panic attacks, my worst hell time in the last 2 years.

[Athena]

37 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

How far below 12.5mcg per dose did you go?

 

Lets say cytomel is the culprit. Why would cytomel suddenly give me insomnia? Because before I was knocked out by the amount of AD I was taking? Something like that? And I would need to decrease really really slow to see if it helps?

 

I even went slower than the doc asked me to. I guess I got caught into trusting a doc again. I felt worse during the day well before I reached down 12.5 daily, more diziness etc but I was told it was normal in changing dosages.

[Altostrata]

What do you mean "suddenly"? When was "suddenly"?

 

This is when you reported the sleep problem:

 

On 3/15/2018 at 7:26 AM, Athena said:

Hi guys, I am in such a bad shape. I have been having severe insomnia for the past 8 months. I was waiting to write to be able to give a positive update but well, I couldn't. The last bout of insomnia finally stabilized like I say in my last post but then it started again last August. My last cut of Paxil was in July.  It varies a lot, ranging from no sleep at all, 2 or 3 hours or, on the best nights, 2 bouts of about 3h. I feel so tired, but wired, like "on speed", especially at night. I increased the paxil by 0.1mg in January, it didn't help. Then I decreased my thyroid medication for hypothyroidism (cytomel) a month ago because I felt I was too hyper, my TSH had been lower than before and I was loosing weight. It made my menstrual cycle more normal, kind of helped the insomnia for a bit but didn't last. Now I'm thinking I might have advanced adrenal fatigue and I wonder if I should do something about that (saliva test, supplements for that...?) ...

 

At that time, you thought your thyroid supplement might be responsible.

 

What happened after you cut Paxil in July 2018?

[Blondiee1915]

I would check thyroid levels as well as cortisol and iron.  From my research on thyroid if your iron and cortisol levels are inadequate your body might not absorb the medication correctly and create hyper symptoms.  

 

You might have been okay on that dose of T3 in the past but maybe now your body changed or your levels adjusted or your adrenals or your iron levels are off.  There is no way to know unless you do labs.  That’s why thyroid patients get their blood work done and levels checked a few times a years specially when symptomatic.  

 

 

[Athena]

14 hours ago, Altostrata said:

What do you mean "suddenly"? When was "suddenly"?

 

14 hours ago, Altostrata said:

What happened after you cut Paxil in July 2018?

 

July 2017: My last Paxil cut (from 1.6mg to 1.5mg). Wasn't feeling great, but kind of ok. Sleep was acceptable with the supplements.

 

August 2017: acupuncture treatment to try to reduce big uterine fibroids and avoid surgery. Acupuncturist suggested drinking water from boiled broccoli which contains DIM, on empty stomach, to help stabilise oestrogen. Did that following day twice, felt very dizzy. CRAZY INSOMNIA STARTED.

 

August-Dec 2017: Tried acupuncture and various treatments to bring sleep back. Nothing worked.

 

Jan 2018: Paxil updose 1.5 to 1.6mg. Did nothing.

 

Feb 2018: Started wondering with doctor if Cytomel was the problem. Went from 25mcg to 20mcg. Sleep was better for a couple of weeks (still very variable though). But menstrual cycle more stable and less PMS. Then sleep worsened again, so was told to decrease again.

 

March 2018: Cytomel 15 mcg. Same cycle, helped at first but but sleep started to be more hectic and panic attacks started

 

April and May 2018: increased slowly back to 25mcg. Sleep finally less hectic and panics stopped. But sleep not good

 

June 2018: Saw new endocrinologist. Said it didn't work because I didn't have enough T4. So...

 

June-sept 2018: Same story of decreasing down cytomel to 12.5mcg, but with added synthroid up to 62.5. Same effects as in the winter, with panic attacks during the night

 

Oct. 2018: Back again to cytomel only 25mcg. Less panics but severe insomnia

 

Dec 2018: Surgery to remove fibroids

 

Jan-June 2019: Still severe insomnia

 

*I just want to add that all through my taper I had insomnia problems, that was tolerable and that always ended up better with holding between cuts and with supplements. I had another bout of more difficult insomnia before, in Dec. 2016-Feb 2017. I had finished the Wellbutrin in Oct. 2016 and that winter we were buying a house so very stressful for me. It ended up stabilising March 2017 after an updose of paxil from 1.8 to 1.9.

 

[Athena]

13 hours ago, Blondiee1915 said:

I would check thyroid levels as well as cortisol and iron.  From my research on thyroid if your iron and cortisol levels are inadequate your body might not absorb the medication correctly and create hyper symptoms.  

 

They are checked regularly. Like I said my T3 is well into high normal, my TSH is fine, my T4 is low but I don't tolerate T4 and the STTM patient movement believe it's the T3 levels that are important. Yes, iron and cortisol are done too. Iron is in the low normal but I've always been like that and taking iron as much as my digestive system permits. My cortisol is a bit low in the day, however normal before bed. I am very reticent to take anything to increase my cortisol during the day in the state that I am in.

 

Maybe for me right now, a lower T3 would be better tolerated, but by decreasing it very very very slowly. I don't now.

 

I am due for a a blood take next week. I'll let you guys know if anything has changed.

[Athena]

@Altostrata @Blondiee1915

 

On my last labs my T3 was 6.4 (normal range ends at 6.3) after my morning cytomel dosage, almost due for my PM dosage. That means that I might be high for a part of the afternoon. Again, this is interpreted in very different ways according to doctors or patient STTM movement. Some say it's high, my new endo expert internist said it's perfect, STTM say it's not relevant because the first dosage was taken, and result would be a lot lower if no med had been taken.

 

Also I never have any thyroid antibodies so it's unclear where my hypothyroidism comes from.

 

I hope my posts are clearer today, I found my thyroid notes. Thank you both for your help.

[Altostrata]

Paxil's role in your sleeplessness is not clear to me.

 

10 hours ago, Athena said:

I had finished the Wellbutrin in Oct. 2016 and that winter we were buying a house so very stressful for me. It ended up stabilising March 2017 after an updose of paxil from 1.8 to 1.9.

 

Did you also decrease Paxil in August 2017? Don't know if that acupuncture treatment was coincidental with something else. Did you accidentally skip Paxil? Maybe used outdated liquid? An acupuncture treatment can cause activation, but yours has lasted too long for that acupuncture treatment to explain it.

 

10 hours ago, Athena said:

Feb 2018: Started wondering with doctor if Cytomel was the problem. Went from 25mcg to 20mcg. Sleep was better for a couple of weeks (still very variable though). But menstrual cycle more stable and less PMS. Then sleep worsened again, so was told to decrease again.

 

March 2018: Cytomel 15 mcg. Same cycle, helped at first but but sleep started to be more hectic and panic attacks started

 

April and May 2018: increased slowly back to 25mcg. Sleep finally less hectic and panics stopped. But sleep not good

 

The improvement in your menstrual cycle with the decrease from 25mcg to 20mcg indicates that 25mcg might have been too much at that time. Was this 25mcg per day or twice a day?

 

With the additional changes in thyroid drug, did your menstrual issues continue on the improved course, stay the same, or return again as a problem? Are you peri-menopausal?

 

The temporarily improved sleep when you changed thyroid drug doses indicates to me that the thyroid drug or hypothyroidism is involved in your sleep problems.

 

Peri-menopause and menopause can cause sleep problems. Have you looked into your hormonal status and tried hormonal supplements?

 

I'm not an endocrinologist or STTM member or any kind of thyroid or hormone authority. This is as far as I can go with the hormonal stuff, sorry.

 

It's possible 1.6mg Paxil is wearing off too soon and you're getting Paxil withdrawal at night. You might try a Paxil updose to 1.7mg and see what happens, or it could be adding Prozac or Celexa for a crossover switch might help you finally get off Paxil.

[Athena]

On 6/21/2019 at 9:38 PM, Altostrata said:

Did you also decrease Paxil in August 2017? Don't know if that acupuncture treatment was coincidental with something else. Did you accidentally skip Paxil? Maybe used outdated liquid? An acupuncture treatment can cause activation, but yours has lasted too long for that acupuncture treatment to explain it.

 

No, my last Paxil cut was in July 2017. I am pretty positive I NEVER skipped a Paxil dose. I weigh and cut my paxil so no, no outdated liquid. I know, it is all very unclear to me too, and therefore very anxiety-creating and discouraging. I can't say "this is "just" withdrawal and it will pass". It seems something else is going on and I can't put my finger on it with my dizzy and exhausted and foggy brain.

 

On 6/21/2019 at 9:38 PM, Altostrata said:

The improvement in your menstrual cycle with the decrease from 25mcg to 20mcg indicates that 25mcg might have been too much at that time. Was this 25mcg per day or twice a day?

 

All the dosages I have written are daily dosages, so that was 25mcg per day. Yes, I interpreted that as a sign it was too much too, until the sleep was bad again and decreased again. Maybe that was the mistake, going too fast.

 

On 6/21/2019 at 9:38 PM, Altostrata said:

With the additional changes in thyroid drug, did your menstrual issues continue on the improved course, stay the same, or return again as a problem? Are you peri-menopausal?

 

The menstrual issues continued to be improved, but not the sleep. No there is no indication (DHEAs etc) that I am perimenopausal.

 

On 6/21/2019 at 9:38 PM, Altostrata said:

m not an endocrinologist or STTM member or any kind of thyroid or hormone authority. This is as far as I can go with the hormonal stuff, sorry.

 

 

I understand. You've been more helpful than endocrinologists, who just look at the lab numbers and don't even test T3 for the majority. The thing is when you have another health problem while being in WD and having really sensitive systems (I always have even before WD), nobody seems to know what to do with you so only WD people understand. And STTM people help people who clearly have hypothyroidism only, mostly by adding T3 or switching to NDT or check iron and cortisol. I feel my issue is elsewhere as those have been checked at and dealt with as best as possible. I don't even have thyroid antibodies so it is not even clear where my HT comes from. I was put on cytomel after being on SSRIs because they made me dead tired, and my TSH was found to be "limit high". All I know is that when I decrease cytomel I end up worse, but then again it might have been too fast.

 

If I was to try and reduce by 1mcg daily as you suggested, how would you do it if it were you? I was thinking 24mcg daily for a week, then 23 for a week, then 22 for a week and then hold, see, and test. What do you think?

 

Thank you Alto.

[Altostrata]

On 6/21/2019 at 6:38 PM, Altostrata said:

It's possible 1.6mg Paxil is wearing off too soon and you're getting Paxil withdrawal at night. You might try a Paxil updose to 1.7mg and see what happens, or it could be adding Prozac or Celexa for a crossover switch might help you finally get off Paxil.

 

How about adding a tiny bit of Prozac or Celexa in the evening, such as 0.1mg?

 

Since you've done so many experiments with T3, not sure if more would be productive. Maybe.

[Athena]

42 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

How about adding a tiny bit of Prozac or Celexa in the evening, such as 0.1mg?

 

 

Would a coumpound pharmacy make me such a small amount? I am not familiar with them. I might just as well increase my Paxil to 1.7 since I already cut it myself?

 

42 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

Since you've done so many experiments with T3, not sure if more would be productive. Maybe.

 

I don't know, it just feels something hormonal is going on like you said, and it's not improving. Maybe I made my conclusions on changing it too fast, I've had that 25mcg of cytomel for more than 10 years. It's not just the insomnia, it's the wired feeling, the feeling that the brain is going 100 miles an hour but confused and dizy at the same time, the irritability, the slightly increased heart rate or feeling it beating stronger, the intolerable feeling that I dont want to be in that body, taht it needs to stop, all of this worse on some days, varying a lot. Worse on weeks 3 and 4 of my cycle. It could be all WD, but like I said it started all of a sudden after somthing that affected my hormones (the DIM in the broccoli water), so I dont know it is so confusing to me and to everyone. And so, so frightening. I don't know how much longer I can tolerate.

 

I'll make a blood test on Tuesday and see where my hormones levels are at.

[Altostrata]

Paxil can be very difficult to go off. Also, you're down to a very low dose and it might be wearing off towards the evening. Are your symptoms worse in the evening?

 

It's very common for our female members to have worse symptoms at specific times in their menstrual cycles. This is related to the withdrawal-induced hypersensitivity. Is this what you're seeing? Are their times in your cycle when your symptoms are minimal?

 

If you want to experiment with the thyroid hormone again, I would do it very systematically, keeping notes every day and allowing 4 days for each change in dosage to see what happens.

 

In any of these scenarios, to better understand the cause of your symptoms, you'll have to keep daily notes of times of day you take your drugs, their dosages, and your symptoms.

 

You can post them in this topic with a simple list format with time of day on the left and notation (symptom, drug and dosage) on the right. A full 24 hours of notes or several days' notes are most helpful, as we have to see the entire daily cycle.

[Athena]

57 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

Also, you're down to a very low dose and it might be wearing off towards the evening. Are your symptoms worse in the evening?

 

 

On the contrary, I feel better in the evenings.

 

48 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

It's very common for our female members to have worse symptoms at specific times in their menstrual cycles. This is related to the withdrawal-induced hypersensitivity. Is this what you're seeing? Are their times in your cycle when your symptoms are minimal?

 

not clearly. PMS arrives soon, like right after ovulation, so I might feel more irritable globally for the second part of the cycle. But the insomnia is not clearly associated with the cycle like that. If there is a pattern it looks more like one night very severe insomnia, other night better. Or 2 nights really bad, one better, or one bad, 2 better. It fluctuates a lot and fast so it does'nt corelate with my menstrual cycle.

 

If it was the paxil wearing off wouldn't all the nights be about the same?

 

I am open to increase paxil or add another AD to help me sleep, but wouldn't I need a higher increase or addition to make me sleep?

[Altostrata]

In what ways do you feel better in the evenings?

 

1 hour ago, Altostrata said:

In any of these scenarios, to better understand the cause of your symptoms, you'll have to keep daily notes of times of day you take your drugs, their dosages, and your symptoms.

 

I think it's important that you do this, to see if there's any pattern to your sleeplessness or other symptoms. What you see might surprise you -- also clarify your situation.

[Athena]

3 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

In what ways do you feel better in the evenings?

 

In general I am calmer in the evenings, and I might have a bit more energy. However some evenings I am already anxious about the night to come.

 

Ok, I will try to keep more systematic notes of my symptoms.

[Athena]

A lot of things to report. I have been writing notes of my symptoms according to time (will write a sample below) and it is obvious that my day symptoms (increased HR, internal anxiety/restlessness, dizziness) increase after 1h-1h30 of taking a cytomel dose. I always knew cytomel was somewhat activating, but I thought that I needed those dosages anyway because of the bad experiences in decreasing them. When @Altostrata suggested I decrease by only a tiny amount to see, it made me think that maybe I was having WD symptoms from decreasing the cytomel when I did. I remember asking this to the endocrinologist last year who told me it was impossible, but I chatted online with another endo who thinks it's possible. It is a very strong hormone, a lot more potent than T4. So I decided to give it a try again to decrease the cytomel but very very slowly.

 

I did a blood test on Tuesday that showed my T3 is high after my first dosage. Free T3=8.6 (normal 3.2-6.1) I contacted my doctor who agreed to prescribe one week of 24mcg daily in 2 doses, one week of 23, one week of 22, one week of 21. I also contacted the only coumpound pharmacy in my region who accepted to prepare those individualized doses of T3, since Cytomel is only available in 5 mcgs. It is very expensive but if this is a step towards feeling better I would pay any borrowed money.  I started on about 24mcg last Wednesday by cutting an eye-balled 1/5 of the 5th cytomel 5mcg pill. Someone got my capsules of true 24mcg T3 for me yesterday and I started on that. I hope to get the second week of the capsules in time to decrease to 23mcg next Wednesday. When I'll get down to 20 in 5 weeks I'll go back to the Cytomel 5mcg tablets and take 4. I'll do tests again and see from there.

 

IN the state I'm in, with my confused brain, I'm proud of myself for arranging all this this week. Of course, there aren't any positive results yet, it might take a while (maybe when I'm down to 20mcg, I don't know), but at least I'm minimizing possible WD effects from decreasing the T3. In the meantime, I'm trying to keep as calm as I can when I can't sleep from 1h30 to 4h30 during the night, and with the day symptoms as well. Acupuncture helps calm me down a bit as well. I SO MUCH HOPE this process will help me. I'll keep you posted as I can.

 

Hang in there everybody.

[Altostrata]

Well done, Athena.

 

Yes, some people need to get their thyroid drugs compounded to custom dosages, it's not unheard-of. Unfortunately, it can be expensive, but maybe you'll settle on a relatively conventional dosage.

 

As for withdrawal effects from T3, I suppose it's possible because of the short half-life. You might look for specialized forums where people discuss custom compounding of thyroid drugs to see how they calibrated their dosages.

[Athena]

@Altostrata

I am Athena's boyfriend, she is having horrendous panic attacks... She really needs to sleep. She's loosing it.
Should we increase Paxil because her withdrawal does not stabilyse. She is now at 1,6, how high should we go? Or should it be the same Paxil dosage with an other antidepressent ? If so, which one, how much?
Please help! This is not going well.

[Altostrata]

I don't know if these symptoms are related to the thyroid drug, Paxil, or Paxil withdrawal. Here is what I suggested before:

On 6/23/2019 at 9:44 AM, Altostrata said:

 

How about adding a tiny bit of Prozac or Celexa in the evening, such as 0.1mg?

 

Since you've done so many experiments with T3, not sure if more would be productive. Maybe.

 

It is possible the symptoms are due to Paxil, it can be very difficult to go off. If a little Prozac or Celexa (both come in a liquid form) help, I would initiate a cross-over to Prozac or Celexa, then drop the Paxil.

[Athena]

9 hours ago, Altostrata said:

If a little Prozac or Celexa (both come in a liquid form) h

 

Even in Canada?

 

Wouldn't it need to be strong enough to knock me out, now only oxazepam 45mg gives me 6h of sleep.