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Athena

Athena: journey through depression and antidepressants ...

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Athena

I think the T3 doesn't help either, I have a lot of symptoms of too much hormones, but it's impossible for me to decrease it now, my body just doesn't take it. I need to sleep, and maybe then when I have slept for 6 months straight I can decrease that too.

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Athena
9 hours ago, Altostrata said:

f a little Prozac or Celexa (both come in a liquid form

 

Online?

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Altostrata

Please ask your pharmacist.

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Athena

@Altostrata, there is no liquid Celexa available commercially, but I asked the coumpound pharmacy and they would do it. I think I would prefer Celexa to prozac, I've seen Prozac can be stimulating. Why is it Celexa that you recommand instead of one that is more known to induce sleep? Less side effects? Easier to withdraw from?

 

Could I take a dose higher than 0.1mg? I feel it wouldn't be enough to make me sleep...

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Athena

@Altostrata Awaiting for your indications for a liquid Celexa prescription. Thank you

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Athena

I undersant I should start at 0.1mg but then might increase? Will it be the same liquid/prescription? I'm sorry I have to tell them exactly what to do and my brain isn't functional...

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Altostrata
23 hours ago, Athena said:

@Altostrata, there is no liquid Celexa available commercially, but I asked the coumpound pharmacy and they would do it. I think I would prefer Celexa to prozac, I've seen Prozac can be stimulating. Why is it Celexa that you recommand instead of one that is more known to induce sleep? Less side effects? Easier to withdraw from?

 

Could I take a dose higher than 0.1mg? I feel it wouldn't be enough to make me sleep...

 

The reason I suggest Prozac or Celexa is because you're going off an SSRI, Paxil, and these other SSRIs are more likely to be a good substitute. Celexa is gentler than Lexapro, Zoloft and Luvox are no advantage over Paxil in terms of withdrawal difficulty, etc.

 

I don't know of any SSRI known to induce sleep; Paxil is the only one that's anti-cholinergic in that regard. Some people say Celexa makes them sleepy.

 

MIrtazapine is not an SSRI.

 

Believe it or not, a tiny change in the right direction can make a big difference. We see this all the time.

 

5 hours ago, Athena said:

I undersant I should start at 0.1mg but then might increase? Will it be the same liquid/prescription? I'm sorry I have to tell them exactly what to do and my brain isn't functional...

 

Yes, you might increase from 0.1mg. I suggest this tiny amount so that if you have a bad reaction to it, it will be a tiny reaction. If you jump to a larger dosage and have a bad reaction, you may have a bigger bad reaction.

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Athena
47 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

Believe it or not, a tiny change in the right direction can make a big difference. We see this all the time.

 

Thank you Alto, hopefully it will for me too.

 

 

48 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

Yes, you might increase from 0.1mg. I suggest this tiny amount so that if you have a bad reaction to it, it will be a tiny reaction. If you jump to a larger dosage and have a bad reaction, you may have a bigger bad reaction.

 

Thank you for your explanations, I understand better. I just asked my doctor for the liquid celexa prescription, she should send it to the pharmacy tomorrow, so hopefully by beginning of next week I can start with that 0.1mg right before bed and see. Another kind member helped me understand too that I have to ask for a concentration of 1ml=1mg, so that I will take 0.1ml with a small seringe to start with.

 

I will keep you posted for what happens next.

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Athena

So I am supposed to get my tiny dose of Celexa tomorrow  or Tuesday. But I have questions:

 

1. This week has been awful with the change in T3. I am not sure if this reaction was to the tiny 1mcg cut, or from the change in medication product. Anyway, I am back to 25mcg now with the good old Celexa. The changes gave me a reaction starting on day 4 of the change: 2-3 times more dizziness and even lighter sleep when I do get it; and for 2 nights I haven't even had my beginning of night 3h sleep. The dizziness is coming back to normal, but do you think I should wait that the reaction seems to be gone before starting with the Celexa? Or maybe wait until it's a week back on the 25mcg Cytomel? That would be Thursday (or Wednesday night).

 

2.

On 7/4/2019 at 3:26 PM, Altostrata said:

Yes, you might increase from 0.1mg. I suggest this tiny amount so that if you have a bad reaction to it, it will be a tiny reaction. If you jump to a larger dosage and have a bad reaction, you may have a bigger bad reaction.

 

If I don't have a bad reaction when taking it but it's not enough to help my sleep, how long should I wait before increasing again? And I guess I should go up by only 0.1mg at a time?

 

Thank you very much

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Altostrata
40 minutes ago, Athena said:

This week has been awful with the change in T3. I am not sure if this reaction was to the tiny 1mcg cut, or from the change in medication product.

 

What change in medication product?

 

41 minutes ago, Athena said:

Anyway, I am back to 25mcg now with the good old Celexa. The changes gave me a reaction starting on day 4 of the change: 2-3 times more dizziness and even lighter sleep when I do get it; and for 2 nights I haven't even had my beginning of night 3h sleep. The dizziness is coming back to normal, but do you think I should wait that the reaction seems to be gone before starting with the Celexa? Or maybe wait until it's a week back on the 25mcg Cytomel? That would be Thursday (or Wednesday night).

 

I cannot follow that report of your increased symptoms. What times do you take your drugs, with their dosages? Please keep daily notes of times of day you take your drugs, their dosages, and your symptoms. Include your sleep pattern. You can post them in this topic with a simple list format with time of day on the left and notation (drug and dosage, or symptom) on the right.

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ChessieCat
37 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

Please keep daily notes of times of day you take your drugs, their dosages, and your symptoms. Include your sleep pattern. You can post them in this topic with a simple list format with time of day on the left and notation (drug and dosage, or symptom) on the right.

 

Example:

 

6 a.m. Woke with anxiety
8 a.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro
10 a.m. Stomach is upset
10:30 a.m. Ate breakfast
11:35 a.m. Got a headache, lasted one hour
12:35 p.m. Ate lunch
4 p.m. Feel a bit better
5 p.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro
6 p.m. Ate dinner
9:20 p.m. Headache
10:00 p.m. Took 50mg Seroquel
10:20 p.m. Feeling dizzy
10:30 p.m. Fell asleep
2:30 a.m. Woke, took 3mg Ambien (NOT "took 1/2 tablet Ambien")
2:45 a.m. Fell asleep
4:30 a.m. Woke but got back to sleep

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Athena
2 hours ago, Athena said:

Anyway, I am back to 25mcg now with the good old Celexa.

 

I meant Cytomel, I am sorry. My brain is failing me and I was not clear. I did the try to decrease T3 by 1mcg like I said 10 days ago, with a powder in capsules the pharmacy did for me. It didn't work out. I am not changing the thyroid meds anymore. I am back to 25 mcg of CYTOMEL.

 

Now I want to try with the 0.1mg celexa before bed. I have the 2 questions I posted above.

 

1. The effects from tampering with the T3 are coming back to normal, but do you think I should wait that the reaction seems to be completely gone before starting with the Celexa? Or maybe wait until it's a week back on the 25mcg Cytomel? That would be Thursday (or Wednesday night). 

 

2.

 

On 7/4/2019 at 3:26 PM, Altostrata said:

Yes, you might increase from 0.1mg. I suggest this tiny amount so that if you have a bad reaction to it, it will be a tiny reaction. If you jump to a larger dosage and have a bad reaction, you may have a bigger bad reaction.

 

If I don't have a bad reaction when taking it but it's not enough to help my sleep, how long should I wait before increasing again? And I guess I should go up by only 0.1mg at a time?

 

Thank you very much

 

 

 

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Altostrata
19 hours ago, Athena said:

do you think I should wait that the reaction seems to be completely gone before starting with the Celexa?

 

Yes

 

19 hours ago, Athena said:

And I guess I should go up by only 0.1mg at a time?

 

Correct.

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Athena

Sunday July 7th

8:30AM Got out of bed. Intense dizziness and exhaustion that lasted all day because of almost absent sleep.

               Cytomel 15mcg

9:30AM Breakfast

11AM Paxil 1.6mg

1:30PM Lunch

               Cytomel 10mcg

6PM Dinner

          Still very dizzy and tired, difficulty focusing eyes

           Better mood over evening

9:30PM Mg, Melatonin 1mg

10:30PM  Advil, went to bed

Sleep: About 11PM-2:30

2:30 Woke up, L-theanine, Mg, Valericalm

Sleep about 3:30-5:30 + on and off until morning

 

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Altostrata

Looks like sleep is settling down? Please continue to let us know how you're doing.

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Athena

Yes, I guess i am back more or less to the one "better" night, one bad night. The bad night gives me usually 2-3h, not necessarily in a row. But yesterday I hadn't had one bit of sleep by 1:30 so I took the benzo. I just can't do the sleepless nights anymore. With that I sleep 6h straight. But I feel like crap afterwards.

 

I am starting the Celexa tonight. I am going to start at 0.1mg, but I am going to increase as much as necessary to get at least 6h of sleep in a row each night. I don't care anymore how muc drugs I put in my system, I can't live like this hell of the past 2 years. I have given all I could physically, mentally, I have given it all. Not only the last 2 years of hell, but the previous 6 years that I gave my life to make my taper right and methodical. I am completely devastated.

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direstraits

((((Athena))))

❤️

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Athena

Thank you DS for your kind support ❤️

 

Thank you Alto for your invaluable help.

 

I will start the Celexa tonight and let you guys know how it goes.

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Altostrata
7 hours ago, Athena said:

I am starting the Celexa tonight. I am going to start at 0.1mg

 

I would add the 0.1mg and take it a few days to see what happens before you consider increasing. Please let us know how you're doing.

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Athena

I started the celexa 0.1mg last night. Took it at 9:30PM, got to bed around 10:30, fell asleep aroung 11PM. I woke up after 1h30 of sleep, and then it was really light and fragmented until about 5, and then at 6 I slept until 8. I felt some hot flashes and some nausea. I still feel the nausea, and I'm feeling very groggy. I wonder if it's a case of "getting used to it" ; should I take it again tonight and see?  I'm afraid to risk the 3h of beginning of night I was having before the last cytomel change. But maybe a few days won't do harm if it doesn't work out?

 

Also I decided to borrow my parents' fitbit watch to have my sleep recorded a week per month, since I'm having such a hard time to keep track of that and not affect my sleep at the same time.

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Athena

I feel some morning restlessness as well, as always after a bad night.

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Athena

I had the nausea all day, with the grogginess and some dizziness (not sure if more dizzy than usual). Had some hot flashes when came back from a short walk outside.

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Athena
On 7/9/2019 at 5:37 PM, Altostrata said:

I would add the 0.1mg and take it a few days to see what happens before you consider increasing

 

I am not feeling well, I feel some restlessness ans increased heart rate. Should I take the celexa again tonight? Dizzy and some hot flashes too.

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Altostrata
On 7/7/2019 at 2:48 PM, Altostrata said:

....

I cannot follow that report of your increased symptoms. What times do you take your drugs, with their dosages? Please keep daily notes of times of day you take your drugs, their dosages, and your symptoms. Include your sleep pattern. You can post them in this topic with a simple list format with time of day on the left and notation (drug and dosage, or symptom) on the right.

 

I cannot interpret symptoms out of context. Still need daily notes, as ever.

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Athena
2 hours ago, Altostrata said:

I cannot interpret symptoms out of context. Still need daily notes, as ever.

 

 

Tuesday july 9th

9AM: Out of bed, Cytomel 15mcg, bad mood, dizziness, headache, morning restlessness

10AM: breakfast

11AM: Paxil 1.6mg

1:30PM: Lunch, Cytomel 10mcg, dizziness, headeache, less restlessness

6PM: Dinner, dizziness

9:30PM: 0.1mg Celexa, Mg, Melatonin 1mg

10:30PM: went to bed

11PM: fell asleep

12:30 AM: woke up with nausea, took Mg, L-Theanin, Valericalm

1:30AM to about 5AM: very light and fragmented sleep with hot flashes

6AM - 8AM: Light sleep

 

Wednesday july 10th

9AM: Got out of bed, Cytomel 15mcg, nausea and groggy, morning restlessness

10AM: Breakfast

11AM: Paxil 1.6mg

12PM onward: still nausea, groggy, dizzy but calmer

1:30PM: Lunch, Cytomel 10mcg

4PM:SHort walk outside, hot flashes

6:30 PM: Dinner

7PM: Dizzy, hot flashes

Evening: restlessness, increased heart rate

9:30PM: 0.1 mg Celexa, Mg, Melatonin 1mg

10:30PM: went to bed

11PM: fell asleep

about 12AM: woke up but fell asleep again

about 2AM: woke up, no sleep until 5AM, slight panic, discouragement, huge spasms

about 5AM: Imovan 7.5mg slept until 8AM

 

Thursday july 11th

8:30AM: out of bed, Cytomel 15mg, feeling dizzy

10AM: breakfast, Paxil 1.6mg,

12PM: tired, a bit groggy, but calm

1:30PM: Cytomel 10mcg

2PM to 4PM: nap, slept about 1 hour

Feeling generally calmer today, no nausea or hot flashes yet, less groggy then yesterday.

 

I feel that the 0.1 Celexa makes me calmer during the day, but when I take it it knocks me out but afterwards seems to be stimulating. Maybe I could try taking it in the morning? I remember with a higher dose of Paxil feeling that as well: it calmed me and made me sleepy generally, but taking it before bed wasn't helping my sleep that much. What do you think?

 

Thank you

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Altostrata

How often do you take zopiclone?

 

I perceive a slight improvement trend, which is good. Yes, you could move 0.10mg Celexa up earlier, how about taking it 6:30 p.m., with dinner?

 

The daily symptom notes are very helpful.

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Athena

Thursday July 11th (cont'd)

6PM: dinner, calm, dizziness

7PM: Celexa 0.1mg, slight nausea

8:30PM: anxiety +, afraid of the coming night

9:30PM: calmer, Mg, melatonin 1mg

10:30PM: went to bed, Advil

11PM: fell asleep

12AM-3AM: Awake. Very tense everywhere, jerking spasms. Took L-theanin, Mg, Valericalm

2:30AM: Took a second Advil for sciatica/leg pain

3AM-8:30AM: slept

 

Friday July 12th

9:15AM: Out of bed, cytomel 15mcg, headache, dizziness, nausea

10AM: Dizziness ++, increased nausea, difficulty to eat

11AM: Dizziness ++, nausea ++, muscles completely tense, slight throat tightness, diarrhea

11:15AM: panic attack

11:30: Paxil 1.6mg

12PM: Feeling a bit better

1:30: Cytomel 10mcg

2PM: Lunch

3PM-4PM: Dizziness +, difficulty focusing eyes & concentrating, groggy

5PM: Groggy ++ after a walk outside

 

2 hours ago, Altostrata said:

es, you could move 0.10mg Celexa up earlier, how about taking it 6:30 p.m., with dinner?

Yes, I did just that yesterday

 

2 hours ago, Altostrata said:

How often do you take zopiclone?

About once a week. I also take 45mg oxazepam about once a week or 2 weeks, when the insomnia is really too much for me.

 

I think the Celexa is making me too sick. It is weird, at certain moments it seems to make me calmer, other moments it makes me worse. It seems to have knocked me out for 5 hours straight for the second part of last night, but I didn't feel rested at all today and the symptoms were difficult. I think I am going to discontinue. Maybe I can get by with 3-6 non-consecutive hours of sleep, hopefully get back quickly my 3h at beginning of night that I usually was getting. If somewhat soon I can get an assured 4h to start the night, I think it would decrease my anxiety a lot and help me believe I'll get my sleep back one day.

 

Thank you for your help

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Altostrata

Can you give the Celexa a trial of a week? That small amount has not gotten to steady-state yet.

 

How do you feel BEFORE you take Cytomel in the morning?

 

You will need to include every dose of zopiclone or oxazepam in your daily notes.

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Athena

 

@Altostrata

Oh m god I stopped it, I thought it was makinf me too sick and wasn't good. Didn't take it last night. You think I should take it tonight?

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Athena

I took the Celexa again last evening. I really thought you were going to tell me to stop, and we were out of sync. I hope it didn't mess things up too much.

 

19 hours ago, Altostrata said:

How do you feel BEFORE you take Cytomel in the morning?

 

When I get more than 4-5h of sleep, I feel dizzy, but the rest I had really feels good, I feel calm and mood is ok. When I get less than 4h, I feel somewhat less dizzy but anxious and tensed and really bad mood and bad all over. The people close to me all say it, I am not the same person when I had more sleep and when I did not. I have noticed that around an hour after taking the cytomel, either the dizziness or the tension can increase a bit. But I can't change anything with the Cytomel right now, it really seems like that one too creates WD for me.

 

Below are the daily notes

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Athena

Friday July 12th

9:15AM: Out of bed, cytomel 15mcg, headache, dizziness, nausea

10AM: Dizziness ++, increased nausea, difficulty to eat

11AM: Dizziness ++, nausea ++, muscles completely tense, slight throat tightness, diarrhea

11:15AM: panic attack

11:30: Paxil 1.6mg

12PM: Feeling a bit better

1:30: Cytomel 10mcg

2PM: Lunch

3PM-4PM: Dizziness +, difficulty focusing eyes & concentrating, groggy

5PM: Groggy ++ after a walk outside
7PM: dinner, did not take Celexa
10PM: Mg, Melatonin
11PM: Advil, went to bed

11:30PM: fell asleep

about 2AM: woke up, awake all rest of night with 6AM to 8AM dozing

Saturday July 13th
10AM: out of bed, really anxious, tense, really bad mood, Cytomel 15mcg, no nausea

10:30AM: breakfast

12PM: Paxil 1.6mg not feeling better

1:30: Cytomel 10mcg

2PM: Lunch

3:30PM: went for walk outside, dizziness after

4:30PM: very anxious up to an axiety attack around 6PM
6:45PM: Celexa 0.1mg

8PM: dinner, slight nausea, not much appetite
9:30PM: Mg, melatonin, dizziness

10:30PM: Advil, went to bed

about 11:30: fell asleep

I have a really hard time giving exact hours of sleep, it was less clear than usual. I woke up often but seem to have fallen back asleep with supplements (L-Thenanin, Mg, Aspirin 81mg, later Valericalm) as I don't remember being awake for long. I had a lot of dreams. My total hours of sleep must be at least 5 hours.

Sunday July 14th

9AM: out of bed, dizzy, feeling weak, a bit of internal tremors, but calm and ok mood, Cytomel 15mcg

9:30AM: breakfast, dizziness, slightly increased HR

11AM: Paxil 1.6mg

11:30AM: less dizziness, feeling calm
 

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Altostrata

I am still seeing adverse effects of Cytomel. This may affect your sleep. If I were you, I'd make a major effort to get specialist advice and custom compounding of your thyroid hormone to a calibrated dosage. Show the specialist your symptom pattern. Dealing with this is out of the purview of this Web site.

 

It appears to me that the addition of a tiny amount of citalopram has caused an overall improvement in your symptom pattern.

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Athena
1 hour ago, Altostrata said:

If I were you, I'd make a major effort to get specialist advice and custom compounding of your thyroid hormone to a calibrated dosage. Show the specialist your symptom pattern. Dealing with this is out of the purview of this Web site.

 

I have seen a first specialist last year and I spent all last Spring and Summer decreasing Cytomel and adding Synthroid on their recommendations. While doing that I became worse, at one point I was sleeping one night 2 hours, the next night no sleep at all. I finally came back to my initial cytomel dose. This year beginning of Spring I saw someone who is supposed to know even more his stuff, Cytomel was lowered and NDT was added, I was sick and the sleep worsened again. Got back to the initial dose of Cytomel again. Now when we first talked about it with you a few weeks ago I gave it a try lowering cytomel very slowly by 1mcg, it worsened my sleep again.

 

I have been on Cytomel for about 15 years. I have insomnia problems only since I am tapering ADs, tolerable insomnia the first 5 years, intolerable since 2 years. Cytomel might increase some symptoms somewhat but I know that AD WD is the major cause of my insomnia. Touching cytomel is worsening me right now so it is not an option for me at this point.

 

I will continue the daily notes as I can to give feedback and keep record of how the Celexa experiment is going since it seems to have some positive effects.

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Altostrata

Maybe I'm misinterpreting your symptom pattern, but I see a reaction every morning when you take Cytomel.

 

All I can go by is your symptom pattern. Maybe gradually increasing the Celexa will help you go off Paxil.

 

 

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Athena
18 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

Maybe gradually increasing the Celexa will help you go off Paxil.

 

Maybe also if Celexa stabilises my sleep, I can very slowly decrease Cytomel when I am much more stable.

 

 

 

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Athena
19 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

Maybe I'm misinterpreting your symptom pattern, but I see a reaction every morning when you take Cytomel.

 

I agree with you, but I think there is something else causing my severe insomnia.

 

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