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cinephile

Again, chemical imbalance is a myth. Stop the lies, please.

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Altostrata
3 hours ago, Ather said:

Before prescribing medications, There should be Blood tests of all the major neurotransmitters, like a complete neurotransmitter profile, these tests are still not common and not available at many places and if they are then they are very expensive, they should be made common so a clear reference range in the general population comes out, doctors should prescribe after reading the data of different neurotransmitters and also listening to the patient very carefully, until this happens we cannot call it chemical imbalance.

 

These tests are not valid. There is no test to assess neurotransmitter status in the brain. There is no reference range.

 

"Chemical imbalance" has always been a hypothesis based on very little evidence, and was disproved long ago.

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Ather
On 11/12/2018 at 1:38 PM, Altostrata said:

  

These tests are not valid. There is no test to assess neurotransmitter status in the brain. There is no reference range.

  

"Chemical imbalance" has always been a hypothesis based on very little evidence, and was disproved long ago.

 

I think it is just a matter of time and effort, if the scientists and researchers can bring the whole long DNA sequence out, then they can do this too.

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Altostrata

You can believe and fantasize anything you like. We do not permit such speculation on this site, it's a waste of time and terribly misleading for those who want to go off psychiatric drugs. If you want to discuss the future of the "chemical imbalance" theory, there's a big wide Web outside where you can chat about anything.

 

In our current reality, there is no basis for the "chemical imbalance" theory.

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Ather

I would be the last person to advocate the present day antidepressants or any other psychiatric drugs specially the SSRIs, as myself am going through a tough period of withdrawal from them.

 

When we first started to fly, many would die, we found a safer craft we thought it was safe (just like the SSRIs) an Airship but it killed many people, so then in the end we settled down on Airplanes, 747 being one of the safest and now the Airbus A380,  500,000 flights and not a single being fatal?

this is not fantasy this is real.

 

There is a lot of work to be done in this field, human brain / mind,  just like any other organ of the body like heart or liver or kidneys or stomach can be genetically sick or it can get sick during our stay in this world and there must be better solutions out there, hidden from our eyes for now.

 

Seek Knowledge from the cradle to the grave.

 

Your's Ather

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Altostrata

That's true, Ather, but what we know now is there's no basis for the "chemical imbalance" theory, so discussing whether it might be true some time in the future is not productive.

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papaloapan

 In response to the first post at the 1st page of this thread of Jemima: Indeed the whole high-cholestrol theory of heart disease is flawed, you can read that in the great book "Biology of belief" by Dr Bruce Lipton: "Cholesterol is a lipid molecule that plays a vital role in our day-to-day survival. Cholesterol is an essential component of the membrane whose function is required for the survival of our 50 trillion cells."

 

There was an experiment with rats with samples of blood from them, used to study human atherosclerosis, the hardening and narrowing of arteries that is the leading cause of death in the US. The animals had so much cholesterol that their blood was milky white. Despite their apparently toxic level of cholesterol, these rats did not form endothelial cell plaques typical of atherosclerotic blood vessels. The scientist added an over-the-counter antihistamine drug (for allergy) when he introduced the cholesterol. Because antihistamines could override cholesterol's apparent role in atherosclerotic plaque formation, his work showed that the mere presence of cholesterol was NOT the driving force behind a blood vessel's malfunction. The results of animal studies point to the role that chronic stress plays in the creation of histamine and in the onset and exacerbation of atherosclerosis and promotion of cardiovascular disease. Cardiovascular pathology may instead primarily result from environmental stressors rather than genetic dysfunctions or cholesterol. 

 

The rush to judgement of medical establishment against cholesterol, was fueled by the interests of the pharmaceutical industry, because big pharma came up with their magic bullet as statins, used for lowering levels of cholesterol. To make long story short, in the experiment, the discovery was that the atherosclerosis was caused by stress and not by high levels of cholesterol. Statin drugs help almost nothing only for preventing cardiovascular disease with very little success, but statins are much more toxic and harmful than helpful. The jupiter study was a study manipulated by Astra Zeneca with false information just to create the lie that statins and the lowering of cholesterol helps healing heart disease. 

 

"Though statins accounted for $29 billion in US sales in 2013, their war against cholesterol has barely had an impact in cardiovascular disease. At best, statin drugs lower the actual risk of heart attack by around 0.3% while at the same time producing side effects in 15 to 40% of those using the drug. Recent independent studies have shown that statin use for primary prevention has minimal or no value in reducing heart attacks and mortality (Sultan and Hynes 2013)"

 

 

Edited by ChessieCat
added spacing

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papaloapan

Just to clear up: the rats experiment is true and was done by a scientist who has nothing to do with a pharma company. The Jupiter study was done, funded and manipulated by the pharma company Astra Zeneca

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btdt

Statins look up spacedoc.com

22 hours ago, papaloapan said:

 In response to the first post at the 1st page of this thread of Jemima: Indeed the whole high-cholestrol theory of heart disease is flawed, you can read that in the great book "Biology of belief" by Dr Bruce Lipton: "Cholesterol is a lipid molecule that plays a vital role in our day-to-day survival. Cholesterol is an essential component of the membrane whose function is required for the survival of our 50 trillion cells."

 

There was an experiment with rats with samples of blood from them, used to study human atherosclerosis, the hardening and narrowing of arteries that is the leading cause of death in the US. The animals had so much cholesterol that their blood was milky white. Despite their apparently toxic level of cholesterol, these rats did not form endothelial cell plaques typical of atherosclerotic blood vessels. The scientist added an over-the-counter antihistamine drug (for allergy) when he introduced the cholesterol. Because antihistamines could override cholesterol's apparent role in atherosclerotic plaque formation, his work showed that the mere presence of cholesterol was NOT the driving force behind a blood vessel's malfunction. The results of animal studies point to the role that chronic stress plays in the creation of histamine and in the onset and exacerbation of atherosclerosis and promotion of cardiovascular disease. Cardiovascular pathology may instead primarily result from environmental stressors rather than genetic dysfunctions or cholesterol. 

 

The rush to judgement of medical establishment against cholesterol, was fueled by the interests of the pharmaceutical industry, because big pharma came up with their magic bullet as statins, used for lowering levels of cholesterol. To make long story short, in the experiment, the discovery was that the atherosclerosis was caused by stress and not by high levels of cholesterol. Statin drugs help almost nothing only for preventing cardiovascular disease with very little success, but statins are much more toxic and harmful than helpful. The jupiter study was a study manipulated by Astra Zeneca with false information just to create the lie that statins and the lowering of cholesterol helps healing heart disease. 

 

"Though statins accounted for $29 billion in US sales in 2013, their war against cholesterol has barely had an impact in cardiovascular disease. At best, statin drugs lower the actual risk of heart attack by around 0.3% while at the same time producing side effects in 15 to 40% of those using the drug. Recent independent studies have shown that statin use for primary prevention has minimal or no value in reducing heart attacks and mortality (Sultan and Hynes 2013)"

 

 

 

 

Anyone interested in this should check out spacedoc.com 

A NASA  doctor who was put on a statin drug with horrid effects... his first page covers heart and cholesterol too. 

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ChessieCat
4 hours ago, Shep said:

With diabetes, you can measure the levels of glucose and then you take a certain measured amount of insulin. But with a so-called "anxiety disorder", you can't measure your serotonin or your levels of GABA.  There are no objective tests for any type of so-called "mental illness". On many levels, the "diabetes analogy" that many of us have been subjected to falls apart. 

 

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marconyc

I'm not sure why I'm jumping in here--probably just procrastinating at work--but I'd like to point out that studies purporting to prove the chemical imbalance theory of depression seem unable to show that changes in neurotransmitters (or hippocampal size, etc) are the cause of depression and not the consequence. 

 

I have seen some studies suggesting that up to about 40% of a person's depression risk may be genetic. However, even in people who have the suspected genes that predispose to depression, environment plays an enormous role. This article on "orchid genes" is interesting: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2009/12/the-science-of-success/307761/ The article states that "Most of us have genes that make us as hardy as dandelions: able to take root and survive almost anywhere. A few of us, however, are more like the orchid: fragile and fickle, but capable of blooming spectacularly if given greenhouse care. So holds a provocative new theory of genetics, which asserts that the very genes that give us the most trouble as a species, causing behaviors that are self-destructive and antisocial, also underlie humankind’s phenomenal adaptability and evolutionary success. With a bad environment and poor parenting, orchid children can end up depressed, drug-addicted, or in jail—but with the right environment and good parenting, they can grow up to be society’s most creative, successful, and happy people."

 

Furthermore, just because a condition has genetic roots doesn't mean it requires a pharmaceutical solution. Type 2 diabetes is a good example. There are clearly some genetic factors at play, but lifestyle seems to be more powerful an influence, and lifestyle modification can reverse it. 

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elbee
22 hours ago, ChessieCat said:
  On 3/10/2019 at 10:12 AM, Shep said:

With diabetes, you can measure the levels of glucose and then you take a certain measured amount of insulin. But with a so-called "anxiety disorder", you can't measure your serotonin or your levels of GABA.  There are no objective tests for any type of so-called "mental illness". On many levels, the "diabetes analogy" that many of us have been subjected to falls apart. 

 

That sums things up perfectly in three short sentences. If my "mental illness" is due to low serotonin levels, then show me the test to measure my serotonin levels.

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marconyc

The latest issue of the journal Behavioral and Brain Sciences features several prominent researchers debunking the notion that mental health concerns are “brain disorders.” https://www.madinamerica.com/2019/03/mental-health-concerns-not-brain-disorders-say-researchers/

 

One of the points made in the review of the journal issue echoes what I wrote earlier in this thread: "Additionally, because correlation cannot prove causation, it is just as likely that any neurobiological changes detected are the result of a mental state, rather than the cause. That is, changes in a person’s neurotransmitter levels would actually be expected after drastic changes in sleep, eating, and mood states—biological changes could be caused by routine changes such as this, or they could both be part of some other process."

 

And here is a statement by the authors/researchers, which echoes @Shep: "“In the current scheme of things, explanatory reductionism is a remote possibility, not a realistic research target. We do not have biomarkers that are sufficiently reliable and predictive for diagnostic use. We have not identified genes that are specific to disorders and explain an appreciable amount of variance. We have not obtained insight into pathogenetic pathways in the brain that are sufficiently secure to inform treatment. If anything, we should wonder why the massive investments in research, that should have uncovered these factors, have not pushed back the prevalence of common mental disorders by a single percentage point.”

 

The authors state that reductionistic biological explanations of mental health “should not be understood as science but as science fiction.”

 

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Sass

That is exactly what I was told 23 years ago that I had a chemical imbalance in my brain

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ChessieCat

I was told it about 6 years ago so not much has changed unfortunately.

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