rmce72a Posted July 29, 2022 Share Posted July 29, 2022 (edited) Is it possible that I have been in withdrawal when taking a "pooped out" AD? I'm wondering about my situation. I am currently tapering from Effexor XR 75mg following the instructions here. I'm hoping someone can give me some insight into my situation. After 20 years on Effexor for fibromyalgia (NOT depression/anxiety), I began having a variety of odd symptoms starting about 3 years ago. I had random itchiness, occasional heart palpitations, achiness and cramping, tinnitus, IBS which I attributed to aging and allergies. Cardiologist did a heart cath, treadmill, etc. and said heart was fine but prescribed beta blocker which I have since stopped taking. My PCP says I am in great health. The most difficult symptoms were panic attacks, depression/crying spells, and anxiety which I had never had. Here's my question/theory. I believe that Effexor pooped out after so many years, and that the unexplained ailments I developed were actually withdrawal symptoms. I began having what I now see are classic withdrawal symptoms of stopping an AD that could not be accounted for any other way. My issue now, of course, is how would that affect my withdrawal/tapering journey? I have read here that tapering from poop out is more difficult, for reasons no one knows. I understand that, but I wonder why my symptoms would be worse if I have been going through withdrawal already. Just curious. Anyone else experience something like this? Edited July 30, 2022 by ChessieCat added topic title before merging with existing topic 1 Prozac 10mg 1990-1999 -1999-2018 Effexor XR 75 mg capsules -2018 Dr direct switched me from Effexor 75XR to Cymbalta 20mg XR and 20 mg Metoprolol following irregular heartbeat incident -Late 2019 began worsening anxiety/ depression symptoms -2020 Dr direct switched back to 75 mg Effex XR Symptoms worsened -2021 Changed Dr and began therapy for GAD and worsening physical symptoms -2022 Found this forum and began slow taper by removing beads - 6/7 - 6/10 Effexor 73.2mg 6/11-6/14 Effexor 72.9mg nightmares, tinnitus, anxiety; 6/15- Effexor XR 72.6mg 6/16 - 6/20 Effexor XR 72.8 nausea, heart palpitations, anxiety, tinnitus 6/22-7/4 hold Effexor XR 72.9-73.1 7/5-7/11 Effexor XR 72.62 7/12 - 7/15 Effexor 72.6 bad symptoms 7/16-7/17 Effexor XR upped to 72.9 7/18 Effexor XR 72.9 most symptoms gone hold at 72.9 - 73.0 8/26 - 9/6 Trying to keep dosage under 73. Holding around 72.9 sometime 72.86 due to bead count Having symptoms most days. 9/6-9/23 Holding at about 72.9-73. Still very ill. No improvement. 9/23 - 11/23 Still keeping dose around 72.9-73 11-23-Jan 14 Held until one week ago. Dropped to 72.75-72.81 terrible WD 1/14- present Worse WD symptoms. Back to 73.10. Cannot seem to stabilize. 2/2 - present Holding at about 73 hoping to stabilize 3/19 - present Dropped to aprox 92.9-92.88. (vary from day to day.) Holding Take only Clarinex 5mg for allergies and the Effexor 73 XR. I cannot take any supplements. No caffeine, sugar, soy, gluten, dairy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Emeritus ChessieCat Posted July 30, 2022 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted July 30, 2022 59 minutes ago, rmce72a said: I believe that Effexor pooped out after so many years, and that the unexplained ailments I developed were actually withdrawal symptoms. I began having what I now see are classic withdrawal symptoms of stopping an AD that could not be accounted for any other way. I think this might help: On 7/20/2012 at 9:07 AM, Altostrata said: Yes, one can have withdrawal symptoms (or other symptoms) when an antidepressant or benzo reaches tolerance. This is "tolerance withdrawal." This happened to me with Paxil. I got to tolerance and had weepy spells. Not really withdrawal symptoms, but symptoms the drug was not benefiting me. 1 hour ago, rmce72a said: I have read here that tapering from poop out is more difficult, for reasons no one knows. I understand that, but I wonder why my symptoms would be worse if I have been going through withdrawal already. It's tricky because you are already experiencing "tolerance withdrawal" and if you reduce too quickly you can get regular "withdrawal symptoms". It may be difficult to work out where the symptoms are coming from. You will need to be very vigilant and I suggest you keep notes. As I've posted before in your topic, when the drug has reached tolerance, when you make a reduction you can feel better very soon after but then gradually start to feel worse. With ordinary withdrawal the symptoms start soon after the reduction and as you hold for longer the withdrawal symptoms ease as the brain adapts to not getting as much of the drug. This is probably the main reason that Brassmonkey decided to develop his own tapering method which I think he based on the benzo micro tapering. The Brass Monkey Slide gives you a lot more control over your taper. The only drug which I personally don't think the Brassmonkey slide is suitable for is Prozac simple because it has a very long half life and it can take 3 weeks before the dose change fully registers in the brain. If you are reducing weekly then the withdrawal symptoms (which you might be aware of) can accumulate over a period of time and then you get hit later on. @brassmonkey Are you able to add anything to this that might be helpful? Thank you. * NO LONGER ACTIVE on SA * MISSION ACCOMPLISHED: (6 year taper) 0mg Pristiq on 13th November 2021 ADs since ~1992: 25+ years - 1 unknown, Prozac (muscle weakness), Zoloft; citalopram (pooped out) CTed (very sick for 2.5 wks a few months after); Pristiq: 50mg 2012, 100mg beg 2013 (Serotonin Toxicity) Tapering from Oct 2015 - 13 Nov 2021 LAST DOSE 0.0025mg Post 0 updates start here My tapering program My Intro (goes to tapering graph) VIDEO: Antidepressant Withdrawal Syndrome and its Management Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmce72a Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 Thank you for this information. I have a follow-up question. You say As I've posted before in your topic, "when the drug has reached tolerance, when you make a reduction you can feel better very soon after but then gradually start to feel worse. With ordinary withdrawal the symptoms start soon after the reduction and as you hold for longer the withdrawal symptoms ease as the brain adapts to not getting as much of the drug." If I start to gradually feel worse, how will I know when to continue the taper? The reason I am holding now is because I have been feeling worse. I know that we should not continue to taper when we are having symptoms, so how will I know when to continue? When I am feeling worse, is my brain adapting and will those symptoms ease as in regular withdrawal? I am keeping track of symptoms in my daily journal, but since I have a fairly good day then 4 or 5 days of symptoms, then a better day, I don't know when to continue the taper. I am waiting for several stable, relatively symptom-free days before I continue the taper, but since I am tapering from poop-out, I don't know when to continue. By the way, I am making only tiny changes (73.3 to 73, for example.) Thank you for your patience with me. I am trying so hard to do this correctly, and I am in it for the long haul, but what is happening isn't following the usual pattern and I'm not sure how to proceed. Prozac 10mg 1990-1999 -1999-2018 Effexor XR 75 mg capsules -2018 Dr direct switched me from Effexor 75XR to Cymbalta 20mg XR and 20 mg Metoprolol following irregular heartbeat incident -Late 2019 began worsening anxiety/ depression symptoms -2020 Dr direct switched back to 75 mg Effex XR Symptoms worsened -2021 Changed Dr and began therapy for GAD and worsening physical symptoms -2022 Found this forum and began slow taper by removing beads - 6/7 - 6/10 Effexor 73.2mg 6/11-6/14 Effexor 72.9mg nightmares, tinnitus, anxiety; 6/15- Effexor XR 72.6mg 6/16 - 6/20 Effexor XR 72.8 nausea, heart palpitations, anxiety, tinnitus 6/22-7/4 hold Effexor XR 72.9-73.1 7/5-7/11 Effexor XR 72.62 7/12 - 7/15 Effexor 72.6 bad symptoms 7/16-7/17 Effexor XR upped to 72.9 7/18 Effexor XR 72.9 most symptoms gone hold at 72.9 - 73.0 8/26 - 9/6 Trying to keep dosage under 73. Holding around 72.9 sometime 72.86 due to bead count Having symptoms most days. 9/6-9/23 Holding at about 72.9-73. Still very ill. No improvement. 9/23 - 11/23 Still keeping dose around 72.9-73 11-23-Jan 14 Held until one week ago. Dropped to 72.75-72.81 terrible WD 1/14- present Worse WD symptoms. Back to 73.10. Cannot seem to stabilize. 2/2 - present Holding at about 73 hoping to stabilize 3/19 - present Dropped to aprox 92.9-92.88. (vary from day to day.) Holding Take only Clarinex 5mg for allergies and the Effexor 73 XR. I cannot take any supplements. No caffeine, sugar, soy, gluten, dairy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator brassmonkey Posted July 30, 2022 Moderator Share Posted July 30, 2022 Here is a little something I wrote several years ago for another member that may be helpful: "Poopout is a weird situation in which the body and the drug are fighting for control. It actually is a form of withdrawal because the body has started to find ways around the effects of the drug and is trying to function normally while the drug is trying to make it function the way it wants it to. The only way to change the situation is to reduce the amount of the drug in a slow manner so the body can make the changes necessary to function without it, but not reducing enough to increase the WD symptoms. So in effect the only way to get out of poopout is to reduce the dose of the drug. Homeostasis will happen eventually, once the drug has been reduced to the point that the body has regained control. For me that took 2.5 years because I was on a very large dose, 40mg, and had been in poopout for several years. I don't think you will need that long to stabilize. Your body will be recovering all the while during your taper, you just might not feel it until things stabilize. As long as there is some of the drug present in your body it will be causing some negative affect. Which is why "real recovery" can't happen until you are completely off of the drug. Your best bet would be to start a slow gentle taper and let your body start to sort things out. I would suggest the Brassmonkey Slide Method because it is really good at reducing the symptoms that accompany each reduction. This would be to reduce by 2.5% a week for four weeks and then hold for an additional 2 weeks. This will give a total reduction of 10% every six weeks. Which is a bit slower than our recommended 10% taper but will still move the reduction rate along at a good speed. I wouldn't expect the symptoms to clear up with just a few reductions, but you shouldn't get any big increase either. Typically, there will be a spike in symptoms a couple of days after each decrease, but that spike should drop off by the time the next reduction is called for. If you do get a very large increase in symptoms then doing smaller reductions would be called for, say 1.25% a week on the same schedule." Tapering out of poopout is the one time where it is recommended to keep tapering even though you don't feel stable. You need to go slow and steady, and if the symptoms get really bad take a longer hold. But basically, you have to bull through until things start to calm down. As I mentioned, this could take quite some time. I've helped quite a few members taper out of poopout and although it doesn't feel like it at the time, this method really does work. 1 20 years on Paxil starting at 20mg and working up to 40mg. Sept 2011 started 10% every 6 weeks taper (2.5% every week for 4 weeks then hold for 2 additional weeks), currently at 7.9mg. Oct 2011 CTed 15oz vodka a night, to only drinking 2 beers most nights, totally sober Feb 2013. Since I wrote this I have continued to decrease my dose by 10% every 6 weeks (2.5% every week for 4 weeks and then hold for an additional 2 weeks). I added in an extra 6 week hold when I hit 10mg to let things settle out even more. When I hit 3mgpw it became hard to split the drop into 4 parts so I switched to dropping 1mgpw (pill weight) every week for 3 weeks and then holding for another 3 weeks. The 3 + 3 schedule turned out to be too harsh so I cut back to dropping 1mgpw every 4 weeks which is working better. Final Dose 0.016mg. Current dose 0.000mg 04-15-2017 "It's also important not to become angry, no matter how difficult life is, because you can loose all hope if you can't laugh at yourself and at life in general." Stephen Hawking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmce72a Posted July 30, 2022 Share Posted July 30, 2022 Brassmonkey, I can't thank you enough for this information. It certainly clarifies how I should proceed and what to expect. Since so little is known about poop-out and withdrawal, I will listen to the voice of experience (YOU) and mush on. In my brief 11-week experience since beginning my taper, I feel that small decreases will be required. Today I am feeling a bit better even though I would not call it a window. I'm just less ill than the past few days. Next week I plan to drop to 72.7 which is about one half of one per cent. (.005) and see how it goes. I so appreciate your help. I hope I can keep in touch with you for guidance since my situation is a little different since I am tapering from poop-out. Thank you again for all you do to help everyone. Rebecca Prozac 10mg 1990-1999 -1999-2018 Effexor XR 75 mg capsules -2018 Dr direct switched me from Effexor 75XR to Cymbalta 20mg XR and 20 mg Metoprolol following irregular heartbeat incident -Late 2019 began worsening anxiety/ depression symptoms -2020 Dr direct switched back to 75 mg Effex XR Symptoms worsened -2021 Changed Dr and began therapy for GAD and worsening physical symptoms -2022 Found this forum and began slow taper by removing beads - 6/7 - 6/10 Effexor 73.2mg 6/11-6/14 Effexor 72.9mg nightmares, tinnitus, anxiety; 6/15- Effexor XR 72.6mg 6/16 - 6/20 Effexor XR 72.8 nausea, heart palpitations, anxiety, tinnitus 6/22-7/4 hold Effexor XR 72.9-73.1 7/5-7/11 Effexor XR 72.62 7/12 - 7/15 Effexor 72.6 bad symptoms 7/16-7/17 Effexor XR upped to 72.9 7/18 Effexor XR 72.9 most symptoms gone hold at 72.9 - 73.0 8/26 - 9/6 Trying to keep dosage under 73. Holding around 72.9 sometime 72.86 due to bead count Having symptoms most days. 9/6-9/23 Holding at about 72.9-73. Still very ill. No improvement. 9/23 - 11/23 Still keeping dose around 72.9-73 11-23-Jan 14 Held until one week ago. Dropped to 72.75-72.81 terrible WD 1/14- present Worse WD symptoms. Back to 73.10. Cannot seem to stabilize. 2/2 - present Holding at about 73 hoping to stabilize 3/19 - present Dropped to aprox 92.9-92.88. (vary from day to day.) Holding Take only Clarinex 5mg for allergies and the Effexor 73 XR. I cannot take any supplements. No caffeine, sugar, soy, gluten, dairy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Emeritus ChessieCat Posted July 31, 2022 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted July 31, 2022 (edited) 6 hours ago, brassmonkey said: Here is a little something I wrote several years ago for another member Thanks Brass, I couldn't find that one. I've added it to Post #1 of the Poop Out topic. Edited July 31, 2022 by ChessieCat * NO LONGER ACTIVE on SA * MISSION ACCOMPLISHED: (6 year taper) 0mg Pristiq on 13th November 2021 ADs since ~1992: 25+ years - 1 unknown, Prozac (muscle weakness), Zoloft; citalopram (pooped out) CTed (very sick for 2.5 wks a few months after); Pristiq: 50mg 2012, 100mg beg 2013 (Serotonin Toxicity) Tapering from Oct 2015 - 13 Nov 2021 LAST DOSE 0.0025mg Post 0 updates start here My tapering program My Intro (goes to tapering graph) VIDEO: Antidepressant Withdrawal Syndrome and its Management Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Emeritus ChessieCat Posted July 31, 2022 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted July 31, 2022 TAPERING OUT OF POOP OUT 6 hours ago, brassmonkey said: "Poopout is a weird situation in which the body and the drug are fighting for control. It actually is a form of withdrawal because the body has started to find ways around the effects of the drug and is trying to function normally while the drug is trying to make it function the way it wants it to. The only way to change the situation is to reduce the amount of the drug in a slow manner so the body can make the changes necessary to function without it, but not reducing enough to increase the WD symptoms. So in effect the only way to get out of poopout is to reduce the dose of the drug. Homeostasis will happen eventually, once the drug has been reduced to the point that the body has regained control. For me that took 2.5 years because I was on a very large dose, 40mg, and had been in poopout for several years. I don't think you will need that long to stabilize. Your body will be recovering all the while during your taper, you just might not feel it until things stabilize. As long as there is some of the drug present in your body it will be causing some negative affect. Which is why "real recovery" can't happen until you are completely off of the drug. Your best bet would be to start a slow gentle taper and let your body start to sort things out. I would suggest the Brassmonkey Slide Method because it is really good at reducing the symptoms that accompany each reduction. This would be to reduce by 2.5% a week for four weeks and then hold for an additional 2 weeks. This will give a total reduction of 10% every six weeks. Which is a bit slower than our recommended 10% taper but will still move the reduction rate along at a good speed. I wouldn't expect the symptoms to clear up with just a few reductions, but you shouldn't get any big increase either. Typically, there will be a spike in symptoms a couple of days after each decrease, but that spike should drop off by the time the next reduction is called for. If you do get a very large increase in symptoms then doing smaller reductions would be called for, say 1.25% a week on the same schedule." Tapering out of poopout is the one time where it is recommended to keep tapering even though you don't feel stable. You need to go slow and steady, and if the symptoms get really bad take a longer hold. But basically, you have to bull through until things start to calm down. As I mentioned, this could take quite some time. I've helped quite a few members taper out of poopout and although it doesn't feel like it at the time, this method really does work. 1 * NO LONGER ACTIVE on SA * MISSION ACCOMPLISHED: (6 year taper) 0mg Pristiq on 13th November 2021 ADs since ~1992: 25+ years - 1 unknown, Prozac (muscle weakness), Zoloft; citalopram (pooped out) CTed (very sick for 2.5 wks a few months after); Pristiq: 50mg 2012, 100mg beg 2013 (Serotonin Toxicity) Tapering from Oct 2015 - 13 Nov 2021 LAST DOSE 0.0025mg Post 0 updates start here My tapering program My Intro (goes to tapering graph) VIDEO: Antidepressant Withdrawal Syndrome and its Management Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry4949 Posted July 31, 2022 Share Posted July 31, 2022 rmce72a this is what happened to me after 14 years on the ven I hit tolerance and even though I was still taking the drug everyday I had severe withdrawals I basically was crawling into my doctors crying wondering what was going on unfortunately my doctor had no knowledge of poop out and withdrawal so stopped me c/t from 150 mg what I now know is I should have reinstated and tapered slowly to reduce the harm I would definitely take your time coming off even though you feel bad with the poop out withdrawals the tapering will still lesson the severe affects I had noticed that during my poop out the white of my eyes had turned yellow apparently that was a sign that the med had effected my liver once I was off the med they went back to normal I believe venalaxafine gives you a toxic overload after a long period of use that’s why we feel so bad I hope everything goes well with your tapering 2001 to jan 2015 Effexor 150 mg jan 2015 15 mg mirtazapine 20 mg quetiapine feb 2015 quetiapine stopped feb 2015 30 mg of citalopram added feb 2015 mirtazapine increased to 30 mg july 2015 citalopram stopped sept 2015 200mg of pregabalin jan 2017 mirtazapine stopped jan 2017 20 mg fluoxetine march 2017 all meds stopped Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmce72a Posted July 31, 2022 Share Posted July 31, 2022 Thank you, Terry and Brassmonkey, If I understand correctly, I should taper slightly even though I am having symptoms? I rarely go more than a day without feeling ill to one degree or another even though I've been holding at 73 for 6 weeks. Will I be miserable and set myself back if I reduce to 72.7 in this condition? How did you handle it? Thanks so much Prozac 10mg 1990-1999 -1999-2018 Effexor XR 75 mg capsules -2018 Dr direct switched me from Effexor 75XR to Cymbalta 20mg XR and 20 mg Metoprolol following irregular heartbeat incident -Late 2019 began worsening anxiety/ depression symptoms -2020 Dr direct switched back to 75 mg Effex XR Symptoms worsened -2021 Changed Dr and began therapy for GAD and worsening physical symptoms -2022 Found this forum and began slow taper by removing beads - 6/7 - 6/10 Effexor 73.2mg 6/11-6/14 Effexor 72.9mg nightmares, tinnitus, anxiety; 6/15- Effexor XR 72.6mg 6/16 - 6/20 Effexor XR 72.8 nausea, heart palpitations, anxiety, tinnitus 6/22-7/4 hold Effexor XR 72.9-73.1 7/5-7/11 Effexor XR 72.62 7/12 - 7/15 Effexor 72.6 bad symptoms 7/16-7/17 Effexor XR upped to 72.9 7/18 Effexor XR 72.9 most symptoms gone hold at 72.9 - 73.0 8/26 - 9/6 Trying to keep dosage under 73. Holding around 72.9 sometime 72.86 due to bead count Having symptoms most days. 9/6-9/23 Holding at about 72.9-73. Still very ill. No improvement. 9/23 - 11/23 Still keeping dose around 72.9-73 11-23-Jan 14 Held until one week ago. Dropped to 72.75-72.81 terrible WD 1/14- present Worse WD symptoms. Back to 73.10. Cannot seem to stabilize. 2/2 - present Holding at about 73 hoping to stabilize 3/19 - present Dropped to aprox 92.9-92.88. (vary from day to day.) Holding Take only Clarinex 5mg for allergies and the Effexor 73 XR. I cannot take any supplements. No caffeine, sugar, soy, gluten, dairy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator brassmonkey Posted July 31, 2022 Moderator Share Posted July 31, 2022 Yes. you would continue to taper even though you are feeling WD symptoms. The problem with tapering out of poopout is that until your body realizes that the homeostasis is shifting in its favor a person is going to feel the symptoms more than anything else. There may be some short windows (think in minutes) and the symptoms could be all over the place (mine would change minute by minute, hour by hour at times). I got through it with distraction and acceptance. I had to maintain my fulltime job as a research engineer, which provided a lot of distraction, but required intense concentration at times to get around the symptoms, and I convinced myself that even if I couldn't feel it happening as I reduced my dose my body must be healing. Finally, after a lot of tapering I could feel it start to happen. So, you might not feel it, but a small reduction is a step in the right direction. 1 20 years on Paxil starting at 20mg and working up to 40mg. Sept 2011 started 10% every 6 weeks taper (2.5% every week for 4 weeks then hold for 2 additional weeks), currently at 7.9mg. Oct 2011 CTed 15oz vodka a night, to only drinking 2 beers most nights, totally sober Feb 2013. Since I wrote this I have continued to decrease my dose by 10% every 6 weeks (2.5% every week for 4 weeks and then hold for an additional 2 weeks). I added in an extra 6 week hold when I hit 10mg to let things settle out even more. When I hit 3mgpw it became hard to split the drop into 4 parts so I switched to dropping 1mgpw (pill weight) every week for 3 weeks and then holding for another 3 weeks. The 3 + 3 schedule turned out to be too harsh so I cut back to dropping 1mgpw every 4 weeks which is working better. Final Dose 0.016mg. Current dose 0.000mg 04-15-2017 "It's also important not to become angry, no matter how difficult life is, because you can loose all hope if you can't laugh at yourself and at life in general." Stephen Hawking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmce72a Posted July 31, 2022 Share Posted July 31, 2022 Okey dokey. I will do my best. I am in the process of reading your entire history from page 1. What a journey you have had, and I'm only on page 9! I try so hard to follow the rules and avoid thoughts of how much I have lost and focus on how much good I have in my life, but sometimes the anger, resentment, and sorrow are hard to avoid. I took a leave from a job I love for the fall semester in hopes of gaining some degree of normalcy, but I have a feeling I may not be able to return quickly. I weighed the value of the distraction my job gives me against the stress I feel when I cannot operate at 110% and I think I made the right decision for now. I will search for other outlets for distraction. Many of my symptoms are physical, but I do experience spells of intense anxiety and weepiness, but I think those often arise from allowing myself to focus on my frustration with always feeling "sick and tired of being sick and tired" regardless of what I do. Clearly your profession and many activities contain an element of creativity as do mine, and I find that the creative element is even harder to connect to when I am feeling low. Isn't that frustrating? Ok. Enough whining Rebecca (speaking to myself here). Gird your loins and face the fact that things will get worse before they get better and get on with it! As always, I am so grateful for your guidance. Stay tuned since I will be reaching out again. Prozac 10mg 1990-1999 -1999-2018 Effexor XR 75 mg capsules -2018 Dr direct switched me from Effexor 75XR to Cymbalta 20mg XR and 20 mg Metoprolol following irregular heartbeat incident -Late 2019 began worsening anxiety/ depression symptoms -2020 Dr direct switched back to 75 mg Effex XR Symptoms worsened -2021 Changed Dr and began therapy for GAD and worsening physical symptoms -2022 Found this forum and began slow taper by removing beads - 6/7 - 6/10 Effexor 73.2mg 6/11-6/14 Effexor 72.9mg nightmares, tinnitus, anxiety; 6/15- Effexor XR 72.6mg 6/16 - 6/20 Effexor XR 72.8 nausea, heart palpitations, anxiety, tinnitus 6/22-7/4 hold Effexor XR 72.9-73.1 7/5-7/11 Effexor XR 72.62 7/12 - 7/15 Effexor 72.6 bad symptoms 7/16-7/17 Effexor XR upped to 72.9 7/18 Effexor XR 72.9 most symptoms gone hold at 72.9 - 73.0 8/26 - 9/6 Trying to keep dosage under 73. Holding around 72.9 sometime 72.86 due to bead count Having symptoms most days. 9/6-9/23 Holding at about 72.9-73. Still very ill. No improvement. 9/23 - 11/23 Still keeping dose around 72.9-73 11-23-Jan 14 Held until one week ago. Dropped to 72.75-72.81 terrible WD 1/14- present Worse WD symptoms. Back to 73.10. Cannot seem to stabilize. 2/2 - present Holding at about 73 hoping to stabilize 3/19 - present Dropped to aprox 92.9-92.88. (vary from day to day.) Holding Take only Clarinex 5mg for allergies and the Effexor 73 XR. I cannot take any supplements. No caffeine, sugar, soy, gluten, dairy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Altostrata Posted July 31, 2022 Administrator Share Posted July 31, 2022 On 7/29/2022 at 5:57 PM, rmce72a said: I am keeping track of symptoms in my daily journal, but since I have a fairly good day then 4 or 5 days of symptoms, then a better day As explained, this is the waves and windows pattern of stabilizing after withdrawal symptoms. You probably are not ready to reduce again. Let's discuss this further in your Introductions topic. This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner. "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein All postings © copyrighted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vasherr Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 I have an in my opinion interesting theory about poop-out, from what I understand everybody assumes that it comes from receptors upregulating to keep homeostasis. But what if only in some people this is the case? Wouldn't downregulating receptors produce the same effect for the brain - less serotonin? That would explain why some people benefit from updosing in a poop-out scenario and some people if they updose are thrown into monstrous adverse reaction. I think that it is highly unlikely that every brain reacts the same to the addition of psychotropics, probably there are even more than these 2 mechanisms in play as there are people that never reach poop-out. Duloxetine 2016/17 - 30/60mg/30mg, c/t, light WD. Sertraline June 2019 50mg ADR Clorazepate June 2019 20-15-10mg for 3 weeks then sparsely until 2022, 2 times per month max and very low dose (5mg) Clorazepate Jan2022 10mg 5 days 2,5mg 2 days then off Venlafaxine June 2019 75mg ADR, 17,5mg, titrated to 37,5mg Venlafaxine Jan 2022 Covid, hard ADR on 37,5mg, reduced to 20mg ADR, tried ct, crash, Venlafaxine 22Jan22 reinstated 9,4mg, too low/ 01Feb22- 12mg/ 12Feb- 11,25mg/ 16Feb- 11mg/ 20Feb- 10,8mg/ 24Feb22-10,575mg/ 16Mar22- 10,46mg/ 26Mar22- 10,35mg/ 26Apr22- 10mg/ 01Oct- 9,9mg/ 13Nov- 9,7mg 01Jan24-7,5mg MAR24 Due to another sudden intolerance had to fast taper venlafaxine to 1,14mg Seems like all of this time I was in benzo withdrawal, because when I took it now in desperation to help it made me feel worse, tried reinstatement first 1mg, then 0,05mg both made me feel worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Altostrata Posted February 10 Administrator Share Posted February 10 Adaptation progressing to psychotropic tolerance is a universal, inexorable biological process. It is possible that some people do not feel the effects of tolerance, but adaptation has occurred regardless. Please read this topic from the beginning before adding comments about personal theories. This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner. "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein All postings © copyrighted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vasherr Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 I did read it from the beggining 2 times even, 2 years ago and now, was just curious why some people can updose and feel better and some updose and feel horribly worse. I haven't seen anything in this topic that would disqualify my theory and until science will find the way to measure receptor density we won't know for sure I wasn't even contesting adaptation existing, just proposing 2 viable ways in which said adaptation could happen with the same final result. Duloxetine 2016/17 - 30/60mg/30mg, c/t, light WD. Sertraline June 2019 50mg ADR Clorazepate June 2019 20-15-10mg for 3 weeks then sparsely until 2022, 2 times per month max and very low dose (5mg) Clorazepate Jan2022 10mg 5 days 2,5mg 2 days then off Venlafaxine June 2019 75mg ADR, 17,5mg, titrated to 37,5mg Venlafaxine Jan 2022 Covid, hard ADR on 37,5mg, reduced to 20mg ADR, tried ct, crash, Venlafaxine 22Jan22 reinstated 9,4mg, too low/ 01Feb22- 12mg/ 12Feb- 11,25mg/ 16Feb- 11mg/ 20Feb- 10,8mg/ 24Feb22-10,575mg/ 16Mar22- 10,46mg/ 26Mar22- 10,35mg/ 26Apr22- 10mg/ 01Oct- 9,9mg/ 13Nov- 9,7mg 01Jan24-7,5mg MAR24 Due to another sudden intolerance had to fast taper venlafaxine to 1,14mg Seems like all of this time I was in benzo withdrawal, because when I took it now in desperation to help it made me feel worse, tried reinstatement first 1mg, then 0,05mg both made me feel worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Altostrata Posted February 10 Administrator Share Posted February 10 There are too many variables to even speculate. If you'd like to continue with your theories, please start a thread about them in the Events, Controversies forum, or people will be confused reading them in this thread, which is supposed to be more practical. This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner. "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein All postings © copyrighted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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