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alexjuice

This Can't Happen to Everyone

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alexjuice

I was taught not to make universal statements. But, I've been thinking about the advice I've been given over the last fifteen years, and specifically the advice I've been given since I entered w/d in Feb/Mar of 2010.

 

The reason for my reflection is that I am trying an unhealthy diet that was recommended by a gastro-e to assist my digestive problems (gastric emptying specifically). I'm now 4 days into eating white bread with mayo, white flour coffee cake, mashed potatoes and french fries with ketchup... I'm starting to wonder, "Why am I listening to this advice?"

 

I know I am probably a pretty unusual case. But I've seen or consulted with (no joke) 20 doctors in the last year or so on issues related to anxiety, sexual dysfunction, a possible prostate infection/injury, and GI problems -- these are probably all related though the number of docs who have proposed a connection holds steady at ZERO. I've taken many prescriptions, had ultrasounds, MRIs, CTs, Xrays, labs, semi-surgical procedures... notice the plurals. Everything that was supposed to help, at the VERY VERY best, were harmlessly expensive. Many times following doctors orders made things much worse.

 

After 15 years, I've lost my faith. To the doctors, hear this:

 

You are wrong. Your advice is wrong. Consistently, reliably, nearly 100% ALWAYS wrong in retrospect. You're blind to the causes so can't see solutions. Your recommendations to help me have effectively disabled me. WHY THE F%#$ DO I LISTEN TO YOU!?! Can you just stop f%#$ing my life up and admit you don't know when you don't know. That, or start being RIGHT from time to time.

 

A stopped clock puts you guys to shame...

 

Alex.i

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Neuroplastic

I hear you, Alex. The rule that in every job there's just 10-20% of the really knowleadgable and empathy-driven persons applies to medicine, too. Also, it's been long proved that due to cognitive filters we're in a permanent in-denial mode in many cases. For instance, we seem to trust scientists more... b/c they're scientists. "Scientists cannot be wrong, and even if they happen to be, it's not b/c of their being envious of achievements of others, or money. They're always impartial, objective and fair". This whole SSRIs ordeal of mine was the most unbelievable eye-opener there's. Doctors are people, and people are as programmable as any software. If a given person is resillient and moral enough to not get programmed by the system, it maybe be more an exception than a rule. In every job. Under every "geographical address". Mine, too.

 

You also wrote; "I've taken many prescriptions, had ultrasounds, MRIs, CTs, Xrays, labs, semi-surgical procedures... notice the plurals. Everything that was supposed to help, at the VERY VERY best, were harmlessly expensive. Many times following doctors orders made things much worse." That's a perfect example how the system "self-sustains". I can't even imagine how many people must have been involved in all those procedures, and how much resources were spent. And it all didn't bring you any relief. What a can-kicking!

 

I still want to be an optimist, and be it through hitting a blind-alley, then reversing, then going the right way, the medicine is still making progress. Though, I guess, as far as the current psychiatry goes, the blind-alley is exceptionally blind. *here comes a nasty expletive* :angry:

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Claudius

Well spoken Neuro! And also for me counts that I has lost all confidence in doctors. Regarding to those crazy meds they are indeed in denial mode and the whole med-driven psychiatry is a dead alley with only a lurking and greedy devil at the end of the road... I onze wrote a letter to my GP (and as you know, published it on PP) but the only reaction was a smiling pulling of her shoulders with the comment that I could not prove anything.

In the end we are still better off than the many who are still in the absurdic tredmill of psychaitry, I remember that I told you once before that I saw a woman in the waiting room for the psychiatrist who lamented that she had gone so fat and tired from all those medications and was so afraid that the doctor would raise the dose again... and she would probably habe swalloewed the higher dose if he told ter to do. MAny many people are still completely unaware about the huge conceptual error of psychiatry and consider "doctors advice" as something that must be followed without questioning.

 

At the same time I want to believe too that medicine as a science is improving. Doctors saved my life long ago my removing my appendix. And many people with cancer live longer or even heal thanks to medicine. It is just the craziness of the psychotropic meds, with SSRI's in particular, which I consider as an evil, purely money driven afterbirth of medicine.

My mother sometimes suggest thast I should see a neurologist (she agrees with me that I should never turn to psychiatry anymore!) but I know that this is useless because, just as Alex states, most of them are blind to the causes (the meds) so can't offer a solution. And even the knowing and caring docs do not have a cure for us. We as members of SA are fully aware of the work of good researches like Healy, Glenmullen, Breggin and Whitaker and while living ith the errible fact that we did the worst thing possible by quitting C/T, in a sense it still gives some feeling of rest and power because we know at least what to do: namely nothing. Being patient to the max, taking care of ourselves and try to handle our emotions as best as we can. And the latter has been very difficult for me...

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alexjuice

The problem seems to be that in some areas conventional medicine is very effective while in the area that has affected us... medicine is not able to be helpful.

 

It's a terrible shame that post-acute withdrawal -- a horrible PR reality for big Pharma -- has so few advocates with the resources the challenge requires. Most docs simply don't know... haven't seen any research... etc. Combine a general ignorance with the population at hand (people who were prescribed medication for 'mental illness')...

 

Though, honestly, it wouldn't matter if my doctor realized that my sexual dysfunction, low blood pressure, gastric issues, whatever-the-symptom was directly attributable to changes resultant from the discontinuation of psychiatric medication. What would doc do then? He'd just be guessing as there are no widely studied treatment methods for these conditions. Nobody knows for sure how to 'fix' these symptoms, how to anticipate secondary reactions ... Even the patients of the few doctors who recognize the problem I believe would admit that some of their doctor's recommended interventions didn't work as intended. When medicine at large doesn't yet acknowledge the problem, how can the medical community collaborate to find solutions? It's darkness right now with only the rare specks of light.

 

Everyone is winning at present except the sacrificial percentage of patients who endure w/d, adverse reactions, profound side effects, etc. In the short term, it's us against $10bn in annual US AD revenue... (A conservative estimate of 2008 numbers.)

 

In light of the current situation, why should I listen to my doc who dismisses w/d off hand? His inability to understand why he's been wrong about the things he's been wrong about undermines my faith in all of his recommendations including those that would actually result in a positive effect if I followed them.

 

The result is my paralysis. When something goes wrong, I don't know what to do. Outside of the people online (who can't write my Rx or order tests), I'm short of allies.

 

Alex.i

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alexjuice

Basically, I'm not sure my last post was all that necessary.

 

I could have just said, "Yea. I agree with Claudius and Neuro..."

 

I think I needed to vent a bit. Glad you guys are around or I'd be talking to the walls. :-)

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stan

The result is my paralysis. When something goes wrong, I don't know what to do. Outside of the people online (who can't write my Rx or order tests), I'm short of allies.

Alex.i

 

i was and i am often in this situation

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compsports

Basically, I'm not sure my last post was all that necessary.

 

I could have just said, "Yea. I agree with Claudius and Neuro..."

 

I think I needed to vent a bit. Glad you guys are around or I'd be talking to the walls. :-)

 

Alex,

 

Please don't feel like you have to limit what you say. I greatly enjoy reading everybody's posts, including yours.

 

CS

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Altostrata

No problem. This is the Do-It-Yourself rant forum!

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Neuroplastic

Basically, I'm not sure my last post was all that necessary.

 

I could have just said, "Yea. I agree with Claudius and Neuro..."

 

I think I needed to vent a bit. Glad you guys are around or I'd be talking to the walls. :-)

 

We all so need it, Alex. :)

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Punarbhava

After 15 years, I've lost my faith. To the doctors, hear this:

 

You are wrong. Your advice is wrong. Consistently, reliably, nearly 100% ALWAYS wrong in retrospect. You're blind to the causes so can't see solutions. Your recommendations to help me have effectively disabled me. WHY THE F%#$ DO I LISTEN TO YOU!?! Can you just stop f%#$ing my life up and admit you don't know when you don't know. That, or start being RIGHT from time to time. A stopped clock puts you guys to shame...

 

Alex.i

 

Dear Alex.....

 

 

So sorry for all you've been through and continue to go through. Trust me when I say I rant with you!

 

 

I have lived the reality of all you have articulated. Basically, doctor's know next to nothing. I now have a great fear of ever having to deal with any of them ever again, for any health condition.

 

 

This includes all areas of medicine. I just spent the last 8 months dealing with a specialist who, in the end, knew FAR LESS than what I knew. Thank God, I did some major research and saved myself from a recommended prescriptions and surgical procedure that would have completely wrecked my CNS.

 

I'm so glad I challenged her. I was the one who noticed discrepencies in tests results, after I reviewed the various test reports. I pointed out to her that things didn't make sense and that she was making recommendations upon tests that have a high false negative and high false positive rates.

 

Not to mention, the incompetencies in the system itself. Every step of the way there were errors made.....no one notifying me when a test came back positive, which delayed seeing a specialist. Long waiting times to get test results.

 

I even called one place to get the test results (to follow up since, no one called me back). They told me the test all came back okay. For some reason, I felt this strong intuitive sense to verify this and to review the test result reports for myself.

 

To my shock, my instinct was correct, one of the reports stated "positive" ....indicating a serious enough problem that could indicate cancer. You can only imagine how f(**&^^ angry I was, not to mention, scared out of mind which then completely wrecked my CNS.

 

 

I insisted on being sent for another test, which was considered more reliable BEFORE making a decision to do anything. It wrecked me to do all the research, not to mention trying to make an informed decision based on my research which meant challenging the doctor numerous times..but I'm so glad I did.

 

Like you, I'm very, very angry. Now the average patient would have followed her recommendations, subjecting themselves to unnecessary, invasive drugs and surgical procedures.

 

 

It's shocking just how incompetent the medical system is. In fact, it's frightening! Unfortunately, this is only one story of many.

 

 

It's like we have to become medical experts on everything in order to protect ourselves.

 

 

Oh, in the end, the last test that I insisted upon having, along with being retested (2 other tests) proved to show a benign condition but that's providing that these last tests were performed by accurate technicians (which is a whole other subject) and that they are accurate.

 

And it's not over yet. I have to see my doctor in another month for follow up since, I told her that I believe my condition was the result of AD WD and that I am going to risk waiting things out, despite having a huge fear about letting things ride for a bit of time.

 

 

Seems as if my instincts are again proving to be right although a bit more time I'll know for certain. In the meantime, I keep my fingers crossed.

 

 

BTW, this is only a fraction of the very, very long story.

 

Oh, my doctor was BLINDLY following STANDARD Medical Protocol and thus, was NOT THINKING, nor paying attention to the details and discrepencies that I brought to her attention.

 

Like you, I went for far too many tests and procedures. I also mentioned this to my doctor. I told her that it's pointless to be sent for tests that produce unreliable results and that a patient should be sent for more reliable tests right from the start.

 

I mentioned the huge cost factor. Yes, the last test I insisted on being sent for was more expensive HOWEVER, it would have been most cost-effective in the long run since, repeated lower cost testing only results in more testing. How does that makes sense?

 

Worse of all, the unbelievable stress, worry and repeated pain and suffering of having to physically subject oneself to multiple testing.

 

Forgive me, my grammar and sentence structures are poor ATM but I just want to get this out of my system.

 

 

Anyway, Alex, thanks for starting this thread and I hope you don't mind me ranting within it. It felt good to be able to release a bit of it.

 

 

Best Wishes to You Alex.

 

Punar

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Punarbhava

I hear you, Alex. The rule that in every job there's just 10-20% of the really knowleadgable and empathy-driven persons applies to medicine, too. Also, it's been long proved that due to cognitive filters we're in a permanent in-denial mode in many cases. For instance, we seem to trust scientists more... b/c they're scientists. "Scientists cannot be wrong, and even if they happen to be, it's not b/c of their being envious of achievements of others, or money. They're always impartial, objective and fair". This whole SSRIs ordeal of mine was the most unbelievable eye-opener there's. Doctors are people, and people are as programmable as any software. If a given person is resillient and moral enough to not get programmed by the system, it maybe be more an exception than a rule. In every job. Under every "geographical address". Mine, too.

 

You also wrote; "I've taken many prescriptions, had ultrasounds, MRIs, CTs, Xrays, labs, semi-surgical procedures... notice the plurals. Everything that was supposed to help, at the VERY VERY best, were harmlessly expensive. Many times following doctors orders made things much worse." That's a perfect example how the system "self-sustains". I can't even imagine how many people must have been involved in all those procedures, and how much resources were spent. And it all didn't bring you any relief. What a can-kicking!

 

I still want to be an optimist, and be it through hitting a blind-alley, then reversing, then going the right way, the medicine is still making progress. Though, I guess, as far as the current psychiatry goes, the blind-alley is exceptionally blind. *here comes a nasty expletive* :angry:

 

 

Well said re: self-sustaining system (so very true) and I will add that it's riddled with incompetencies at the very basic levels. Things that should be straight forward (indisputable) become complicated by the bureaucracies of the system.

 

 

RE: as "programmable as software" is indeed the case. Most doctors do NOT think outside the box of their programmed minds, nor do they even wish to, not to mention, can become annoyed IF you attempt to provoke expand their minds. Most are not critical thinkers. Rather, they mindlessly and blindly follow standard medical protocol and IF a patient challenges the protocol, the patient must then endure another layer of stress.

 

Many times, I've have to take on the unwanted role of acting as a psychologist ........devising psychological strategies to challenge my doctor in a manner that will encourage them to cooperate with what I present to them. Other times, depending upon the situation, I am less diplomatic (although still rational and controlled in my approach).

 

 

One must tailorize one's strategy to align with the doctor's personality style IF one wishes to be heard and respected, not to mention if one wishes to be an active participant in one's health decisions.

 

 

In the end......Most don't like a patient who knows too much. It makes them have to think too much and thus, work harder...

 

 

Then there is the odd doctor who invites a colaborative approach. This is rare IMHO. I've only experienced it a couple of times in my lifetime and it was a wonderful experience to have my intellectual assessments and interpretions (supported by relevant research) valued, respected and taken into consideration.

 

 

Punar

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Punarbhava

Worth Mentioning...........

 

First and foremost, ALWAYS make an app't to follow up on test results. NEVER, ever rely on the "no news is good news" scenario.

 

 

This is not only my recommendation based on numerous past experiences but rather, is recommended by a few doctors who have written and spoken on this subject.

 

 

Secondly, ALWAYS ask for copies of all tests results. Review the tests yourself and do some research in an attempt to understand the results. Like I mentioned, I picked up on a few critical factors that were highly relevant (not mere minor facts) that my doctor missed. When I brought this to her attention, she reviewed my file and did agree that I had honed in on TWO critical points that shed a whole different light on what may be going on in my situation.

 

 

Thirdly, keep a file folder with all test results to bring to app'ts with other doctors or specialists since, as per several of my past experiences, doctor's offices many times fail to forward appropriate reports to the specialist and vice versa.

 

 

Fourthly, ALWAYS write down your questions and address each one with your doctor and never be afraid to ask questions. Your questions can provoke a doctor to think more critically about your situation........review the file and/or to think outside the paramaters of their minds.

 

 

Fifthly, do not make decisions nor agree to any medical treatments or procedures until you have had time to process and research in an effort to confirm, refute and/or challenge what the doctor is recommending.

 

Punar

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Punarbhava

In light of the current situation, why should I listen to my doc who dismisses w/d off hand? His inability to understand why he's been wrong about the things he's been wrong about undermines my faith in all of his recommendations including those that would actually result in a positive effect if I followed them.

 

The result is my paralysis. When something goes wrong, I don't know what to do. Outside of the people online (who can't write my Rx or order tests), I'm short of allies.Alex.i

 

 

You shouldn't listen to the recommendations of any doctor who knows nothing about psyche drug WD. You can take his recommendations into consideration but you must research his recommendations to find out IF these are viable and productive solutions to the problem (both short term and long term).

 

At best, even if they do know about psyche drugs, any prescription they write will NOT cure WD. Doing nothing for WD is usually the best solution if one wishes to recover sooner rather than later and IF one wishes to emerge from WD without incuring complications from the effects of other drugs that may have been taken during WD.

 

Any drug, not just psyche drugs, disrupts natural functioning of the body and most medications, if taken for extended periods, will produce a negative rebound effect. Eg. If one takes aspirin for an extended period, one will develop tolerance to the daily dose, not to mention a rebound effect will occur upon abrupt cessation. This is an indisputable biological fact.

 

 

It's basic biology. This is not rocket science. I'm shocked beyond belief that doctors don't get this BASIC principle of human biology. What I present here is common knowledge and yet, these doctors deny that this fact even exists? I've pressured doctors into admiting the tolerance and rebound effects.

 

The fact that I would even have to present such a basic biological fact to them is shocking in of itself. It feels as if I have to spend time PROVING a KNOWN eg. that the colour red IS RED and not blue. Perhaps not the greatest example but it's all I can come up with ATM.

 

 

I truly know that some doctors are ignorant about this although it's beyond me how this could even be possible.

 

I believe they are SO medically trained (programmed as Neuro mentioned) to think in terms of drug interventions that they completely forget the basics of human biology.

 

I mean, the body will adapt or compensate for just about anything.

 

So SIMPLE, so basic and so much a biological fact and yet, how is it possible for doctors to dispute this?? They can only be in willful denial since, admiting to any of this means that they will have to deal with the problem they created and, as mentioned in the above posts, they have no solutions/cure other than more drugs.

 

So, they use what they have..........more drugs. It's like placing the probem on "delay" only for the problem to eventually escalated to the point of crisis and even then, they will throw more drugs at a patient as a

solution.

 

 

BTW, I'm not just speaking about psyche drugs. What I present here is applicable to just about every drug. So, so many people trapped into a cycle of taking a variety of pills each day to ward off tolerance effects as well as side-effects of the other drugs that they are consuming.

 

With that said some people will never develop serious rebound effects but most people do experience a degree of rebound, on some temporary level. The degree of rebound is individual but it remains a reality of basic biology.

 

If possible, avoid C/T from any drug and always taper.

 

 

It's a vicious, vicious cycle that doctors create and then perpetuate. It's also more cost-effective for the health care system to drug a patient to death than it is to get them safely off drugs.

 

 

Detox facilities and/or hospitals stays are far too costly. Thus, the system utlizes the cheap, short term solution however, the long term costs and consequences keep rising.

 

 

It's the political system that drives the practices of health care. We can blame doctors all we wish (and rightly so in many regards) but they are part of a system that truly does tie their hands but then expects them to perform miracles.

 

 

They are limited in way of offering alternatives and affordable rescources to their patients. There is no where to send a patient for long term, cost effective assistance.

 

 

For example, in my situation, there is NO WAY any doctor would admit me, for even one week, into a hospital setting to assist WD from psyche drugs. The only thing offered is more drugs. IF you refuse the drugs, you're on your own and in fact, labelled as a non-compliant patient.

 

 

The only other option is to check into a NON-medical detox facility (which has a waiting list) and C/T off the drug. They do not assist in tapers since this method is not financially feasible for the health care system to absorb.

 

IF one can afford a medical detox facility the taper process is going to be far more aggressive than 10 percent rate etc.

 

Of course, I'm speaking about the health care system in Canada.

 

 

 

 

Punar

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Altostrata

Doctors know about what they know about, and when they don't know, they're bags of hot air, just like any pompous person in authority.

 

Alex, you might prefer to work with a doctor who at least behaves as though he respects your intelligence. Other than that, if you're seeing a GP, you generally can trust them to be able to take a blood pressure reading, etc.

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alexjuice

Alex, you might prefer to work with a doctor who at least behaves as though he respects your intelligence.

 

I do declare that I would indeed! :-)

 

We'll see who I can dig up. It's something I am looking at.

 

Alex

 

ps - I haven't been writing much lately on the board. Been doing okay, but limited by the minute amount of gas in each day's tank. I'm missing it, need it... will participate more as stress allows. best to all...

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Punarbhava

Doctors know about what they know about, and when they don't know, they're bags of hot air, just like any pompous person in authority.

 

Alex, you might prefer to work with a doctor who at least behaves as though he respects your intelligence. Other than that, if you're seeing a GP, you generally can trust them to be able to take a blood pressure reading, etc.

 

 

I quite love this post!!

 

 

Pun

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Rhiannon

Doctors know about what they know about, and when they don't know, they're bags of hot air, just like any pompous person in authority.

 

Alex, you might prefer to work with a doctor who at least behaves as though he respects your intelligence. Other than that, if you're seeing a GP, you generally can trust them to be able to take a blood pressure reading, etc.

 

I think medical schools and medical culture amplify the problem. I work in the medical system. At least in the US our medical system is so hierarchical it's like feudal society. Doctors call everyone else by their first names but woe be you if you dare call a doc by his or her first name. They're even more arrogant and disrespectful to those of us they work with than they are to their patients.

 

Well, than they are to their patients' FACES. What they think of their patients privately is another story. Let's just say "respect" doesn't often enter into the picture. Patients are pretty much the doggy-doo of the medical system. Not that anyone will admit that to you. Oh, no, we're all about patient care. Care of their WALLETS that is.

 

Okay, I admit, there are a few good doctors here and there. I'm lucky enough to have found one or two in my life. They're way too damn rare tho.

 

I just think the field really attracts power-mad arrogant a-holes and the culture of medicine reinforces and encourages their behavior and mindset.

 

I mean, a lot of them really DO think they're smarter than everyone else and generally superior, and not required to treat other people with respect or manners--but don't you even think about treating THEM like anything short of royalty.

 

Little Napoleons the lot of 'em. (With afore-acknowledged exceptions.)

 

And I could really rant a lot longer about that but it's time for me to go for a walk. Harrumph! Alex, thanks for starting this thread, and rant away whenever you like.

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alexjuice

I'm beginning to view doctors as my opponents.

 

To win I must defeat them. Zero sum.

 

I sometimes have contempt for them, don't want to be in the same room with them. I've sat in deference mode while the most ridiculous and insulting theories and explanations are floated in my presence. And these from the doctors that I like.

 

I need one doc to say he doesn't know when he doesn't know. To assure me that I can count on this. This would go a very long way. Trust, doc, look it up.

 

Also, I have a good deal of extended personal history with doctors off the clock. I was at a rehab that specialized in dealing with licensing boards in many states and provinces in N America. Majority of the population were 'professionals' ordered to rehab -- politicians, docs, lawyers, public officials, university faculty, etc. I was there for 150 days. Interaction intense and all day so lessons learned well...

 

There were 'good' docs, those that interacted humanely with my 30%, we of the mortal kind, we without initials on our business cards, generally without business cards entirely. And 'bad' docs (and pols and lawyers) who treated everyone like crap (the rest of us, the techs, general staff... all but the few case managers with power to report back to the Board), acted aggrieved and angry... I saw some masterpiece displays of condescension. Also gifted were they at berating others... I'm sure this is no news.

 

Anyway, one of the Good Docs was one of the best men I've ever met. Also, sidenote, this population created an unusually refined rehab experience (I've been to others, lucky me). For instance, it was necessary to photocopy the times crossword to meet the hearty demand. We attempted a few times the game of Trivial pursuit but we lacked a challenging edition and a Harvard prof or doc could get on a hot streak and basically run the board.

 

To this day I think 2 of the 3 smartest people I've met thus far were co-inmates at that rehab center.

 

Later I found less distinguished peers at a more typical drug rehab center out in the woods near nowhere. We tried a trivial pursuit game there as well. It was again an easy edition. We played one time but, alas, the game broke up unfinished after thirty minutes... No one, other than yours truly, had as yet correctly answered a question and the interest of all players waned... I've been all around the world, boys (figuratively & literally)... I got Drugs to thank for my adventures.

 

OK. I took that thread and tried to quilt...

 

Alex.i

 

ps - Alex's Glossary: Drugs (capital D) are gifts from Doctors (capital D). The other sort, drugs (lowercase d), are gifts from dealers (again, lowercase d). If unclear by now, use of word gift is ironic in both cases.

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Altostrata

Well, with doctors, as with car mechanics -- figure out what limited thing they do well, otherwise ignore what they say.

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