Psuedoephedrine (Sudafed)

[Lilu]

I have recently found out that Sudafed (Psuedoephedrine) increases Norepinephrine in the brain.  I looked this up because I noticed that when I take Sudafed, I become more energetic, more alert, more awake...at least for a while.  The effect lasts for about 5 hours.

http://www.drugbank.ca/drugs/DB00852

An alpha- and beta-adrenergic agonist that may also enhance release of norepinephrine. It has been used in the treatment of several disorders including asthma, heart failure, rhinitis, and urinary incontinence, and for its central nervous system stimulatory effects in the treatment of narcolepsy and depression. It has become less extensively used with the advent of more selective agonists. [PubChem]

 

Perhaps for those of you, who like me, experience extreme drowsiness during withdrawal, maybe Sudafed can help? Especially when bridging with an SSRI from an SNRI like Pristiq or Effexor?

 

I found this blog, which mentions the same Sudafed effect that I have noticed, as well as the ADD medication Straterra, have any of you tried it or a similar medication to help with drowsiness type of withdrawal?

 

http://accidentalscientist.com/2005/08/the-sudafed-test-for-adhd.html

 

Also:

http://www.fpnotebook.com/ent/pharm/Dcngstnt.htm

A phenethylamine and a diastereomer of ephedrine with sympathomimetic property. Pseudoephedrine displaces norepinephrine from storage vesicles in presynaptic neurones, thereby releasing norepinephrine into the neuronal synapses where it stimulates primarily alpha-adrenergic receptors. It also has weak direct agonist activity at alpha- and beta- adrenergic receptors. Receptor stimulation results in vasoconstriction and decreases nasal and sinus congestion.

[GiaK]

Sudafed would be playing with fire for a lot of folks...

 

a lot of us develop sensitivities to a lot of medications when we're in withdrawal and post withdrawal and Sudafed and similar drugs are high on the list...

 

proceed with caution...sometimes these sorts of helpful substances go south on us. 

[Meimeiquest]

Years before I had any psych issues, Sudafed would way over-stimulate me. Take it in the morning, toss and turn all night. I can only imagine what would happen now.

[Jemima]

I used to take Sudafed for allergies.  That and two cups of coffee and I thought I could fly.

 

I don't think this is a safe drug to take for anyone in withdrawal and possibly not for anyone who's past withdrawal but still sensitive to stimulants.

[Finn]

I love Psuedoephedrine for its nasal decongestant value, but I don't think I'd take it outside of the circumstances when I'm annoyed about being sick.

 

For what it is worth, I do use Diphenhydramine at night to offset withdrawal symptoms.

[Lilu]

I have a very lethargic depression. Coffee has no effect on me.  I love the energy kick that Sudafed gives me. But it's clear that my energy just crashes after the effect wares off.  From reading the clinical literature it looks like it's a Norepinephrine agonist which just dumps a whole lot of the stimulating neurotransmitter Norepinephrine into your CNS, as opposed to a SNRI.  I guess that's why it's a controlled substance now.  People were using it to make crystal meth.

 

To prevent this dumping effect of Sudafed, I'm wondering if an ADHD medication would help me raise my energy?  Does anyone have experience with these types of meds?

[Jemima]

Lilu, it's really best not to look to drugs to solve our problems.  That's how many of us got onto this dangerous stuff in the first place. You've already taken many drugs and gone through many too-fast tapers.  Putting another drug into the mix is just repeating the pattern and bashing your central nervous system around again.

[GiaK]

yeah I agree with Jemima...if you want your body to heal it's really best to eliminate all psychoactive drugs (including coffee, alcohol etc) at the very least while you're withdrawing...

 

sometimes that requires a period of feeling pretty crappy while one gets past the perceived need for stimulants...our culture is totally into that...it's a hard adjustment to make...

[Meimeiquest]

I took Adderall for a few years when my sweet pdoc was treating everything with more medicine...got up to six drugs. I loved the Adderall...being slow and disorganized has been the bane of my whole life and it just fixed it (temporarily). The problem is, you can't heal those neurotransmitter levels and receptors if you keep messing with them. And one builds up tolerance. My drugs only worked when I took them all...take away one and the fragile balance was destroyed. But on bad days I do wonder if I was better off with that house of cards. If you had a true energy emergency, something you HAD to get done, I think Nuvigil (early in the day) might be a little safer.

 

But I think it would be best if you made sure everything else with your health is okay...thyroid, no sleep apnea, vitamin D, exercise, gut health/food allergies. I do feel your pain! Good luck!

[Altostrata]

I would definitely NOT take something stimulating like Sudafed, which is notorious for causing sleeplessness, while tapering or after.

 

ADHD drugs are amphetamine analogs. Would amphetamine give you more energy? Probably, since it's been doing this for street addicts and college kids for decades.

 

Would ADHD drugs "correct" your brain? Hardly. All they would do is add to your drug-related problems.

[Meimeiquest]

I have to say one thing about Nuvigil...I have taken one tablet while withdrawing. It worked fairly well, but the next day I had stay-in-bed depression...probably took a week to recover from.

[Barbarannamated]

My experience is very similar to Meimei. I took Vyvanse when on Pristiq but without Pristiq, it feels like speed (very uncomfortable) and there is a bad crash.

 

My house of cards crashed also.

[Finn]

Maybe once you have recovered from withdrawal, you could try a few supplements for the lethargy. I tend to have what you call lethargic depression as well so a proper treatment is something that restores the spark in me gets me motivated. But withdrawal symptoms and overstimulation don't go well. just today, I was making myself excited, and whenever I had a wave of emotion, there was an accompanying wave of dizziness.

[Lilu]

Maybe once you have recovered from withdrawal, you could try a few supplements for the lethargy. I tend to have what you call lethargic depression as well so a proper treatment is something that restores the spark in me gets me motivated. But withdrawal symptoms and overstimulation don't go well. just today, I was making myself excited, and whenever I had a wave of emotion, there was an accompanying wave of dizziness.

 

I am not currently in withdrawal. I'm taking 5mg of Lexapro. It's just too risky for me to get off it right now. I take Sudafed for allergies (year round) - seems to be the only thing that helps. I take it off and on, and have noticed that it gives me energy and alertness.  Something I desperately need.  Doctors often add Wellbutrin to Lexapro or other SSRIs, but it comes with a lot of side effects.  So maybe taking Sudafed for now is the better option. Since being functional is the most important thing right now - drugs or not.

[Meimeiquest]

Hi Lilu,

 

I totally understand. I really hope you are able to find a job soon! The important thing is to keep the overall goal in mind--a healthier (in a complete way) life. There will be many detours along the way. Appreciate you!

[piscesrising]

Interesting that I just saw this because today for the first time in a long time I took an allergy medication with pseudophedrine because I had too, I couldn't get up, completely exhausted and had to go to work. It scares me because it's helping atleast enough that I am somewhat functioning and somewhat awake and focusing and I'm afraid I will lose my job otherwise. It makes me want to be able to take it every day and makes me think I have ADD and that is my problem. But I know I will probably crash tomorrow and that it will make things worse, I'm just not sure how to not have caffeine at the very least (even though not good for 'healing' brain) and function/keep my job etc in the meantime...the two do not coincide.

[GiaK]

it seems that for most of us part of recovery is making lots of mistakes as we attempt to deny the harm drugs cause us...we all have to go through it...and on a small scale I still do it with supplements...we all want the quick fix...perhaps until we die...I think it's profoundly human...

[WhoAmI]

it seems that for most of us part of recovery is making lots of mistakes as we attempt to deny the harm drugs cause us...we all have to go through it...and on a small scale I still do it with supplements...we all want the quick fix...perhaps until we die...I think it's profoundly human...

 

 

I also want the "quick fix", but I'm trying to accept the fact that there is no quick fix.  I try to think of it in the same terms as losing weight. If it took you a long time to gain weight then it can take you a long time to lose it, also. The problem with quick fixes is that they're so temporary they, in some ways, feed our need to just get by while losing sight of the ultimate goal of being healthier and non-dependent.

 

I can certainly understand your need to feel good today and I hope whatever you decide it works for you!

[btdt]

I have to say one thing about Nuvigil...I have taken one tablet while withdrawing. It worked fairly well, but the next day I had stay-in-bed depression...probably took a week to recover from.

I took 1/4 of a benadryl when I had extreme insomnia in earlier withdrawal.. 

I will surround this statement with a cloak so people don't get the wrong idea... here is the cloak...ct... very very ill 6 months 3 months in bed with the usual digestive electorlite issues to the extreme. My life had stopped completely.  I had become accustom to not sleeping three days would be about as far as I could get without sleep... I often used the lay down and rest theme as I had little energy to do much else but it was NOT sleep.  During these days phych issues would torture me and when they got to the point where I was a risk of doing something stupid and irreversible I would take 1/4 of a benadryl to sleep. It worked but it had a fallout anxiety would rebound and all my wd stuff seemed to go back to stage #1 seemingly started a wave... maybe.. or rebound.  I decided it was a rebound situation and saved this technique for the extreme times. I maybe used it three or four times in the first two years of withdrawal and only for extreme situations as I knew the fallout.  I felt it set me back in my healing that maybe I would heal sooner if I did not mess with the work my body was trying to do.  That may have been wrong thinking I don't know but it got me to today so I have stuck with it so far. 

Reactions to supplements and drugs  have punished me several times for not be careful enough and some reactions to a simple supplement has taken 6 wks to go away or settle some I am very respectful of hypersensitivity and to how cranky and unforgiving our brain can be in withdrawal.  

 

I did use gravol child formula for dizziness and nausea very very small dose 1/4 child size chewable which is already 1/3 of the adult dose. think it was mentioned above... it is calming but like everything has a down side... the good thing about it is because of the child size it can be taken in minuscule  doses.  I kept it in my pocket for the dizzy spells that would threaten to keep me from being upright when I had to go out.  I did not go out much so there was little need but important to have when you really need it ... for dizziness the kind that threatens to put you on the sidewalk horizontal electrolyte replacement and gravol.. to keep you upright long enough to buy the electrolyte. 

[btdt]

Drugs supposedly suggested by Healy for treatment of withdrawal 

 

http://www.paxilprogress.org/forums/showthread.php?t=61271

 

some antihistamines on the list... and others... and no I don't know for sure this is his it is just what it says 

 

I would like to investigate this further however would not want to put anyone at risk to do it... including myself.

[Altostrata]

People quite often use Benadryl (diphenhydramine) -- a completely different antihistamine than Sudafed -- to deal with withdrawal insomnia. It's best to use the lowest effective dose. Usually, people find it works for while and then goes paradoxical.

 

Dr. Healy has been speculating that drugs affecting the H receptors, which include antihistamines, might somehow reverse changes to the other H receptors affected by antidepressants. So far, this speculation has not panned out at all.

 

Being a psychopharmacologist, he takes a very mechanistic approach to withdrawal syndrome. He figures if receptors are downregulated, tinkering with them might fix them. Personally, I disagree with this, my belief is withdrawal syndrome is a more widespread dysregulation and trying to upregulate serotonin receptors at best does nothing and at worst compounds the problem.

[btdt]

People quite often use Benadryl (diphenhydramine) -- a completely different antihistamine than Sudafed -- to deal with withdrawal insomnia. It's best to use the lowest effective dose. Usually, people find it works for while and then goes paradoxical.

 

Dr. Healy has been speculating that drugs affecting the H receptors, which include antihistamines, might somehow reverse changes to the other H receptors affected by antidepressants. So far, this speculation has not panned out at all.

 

Being a psychopharmacologist, he takes a very mechanistic approach to withdrawal syndrome. He figures if receptors are downregulated, tinkering with them might fix them. Personally, I disagree with this, my belief is withdrawal syndrome is a more widespread dysregulation and trying to upregulate serotonin receptors at best does nothing and at worst compounds the problem.

I can speak to my experience with an H2 drug for stomach acid control .. sudden suicidal thoughts out of the blue.  Thanks to my long experience with reactions I pegged this almost immediately and look up the drug to see if it was a common side effect... and it was.  So I quit taking it and eventually got a different drug that did not affect me the same way. 

I have a few other things that are issues for me and I am going to go over this supposed Healy list with a fine tooth comb and see if anything pops out as being definitive as in fitting my issues... ones other than hypersensitivity.  If there is one on the list I may just give it a try.  If not then maybe I will just wait another year. As this year has been filled with traumas and issues maybe I will take 8 years to heal rather than the 7 I was hoping for because of losing this year to physical damages. We will see... how does one get to talk to Dr Healy by email?  Does anyone here know? 

[Rhiannon]

Being a psychopharmacologist, he takes a very mechanistic approach to withdrawal syndrome. He figures if receptors are downregulated, tinkering with them might fix them. Personally, I disagree with this, my belief is withdrawal syndrome is a more widespread dysregulation and trying to upregulate serotonin receptors at best does nothing and at worst compounds the problem.

 

Ditto this. 

 

The whole idea of seeing our bodies and brains as chemical machines is SO out of date if you actually understand biochemistry and complexity at all. The chemistry of our bodies is indescribably complex. Everything feeds back on everything in complex regulatory loops. Nothing is separated in its own little box.

 

Unfortunately this mechanistic view of nature is deeply imbedded in our cultural/scientific unconscious. It did lead to some solutions over past centuries--effective surgical repairs for injuries, blood transfusions, things like that--but we've solved those problems now, and the problems we're facing now are more subtle and do not respond well to this particular sledgehammer. And this view of bodies and brains as a machine that can be tinkered with successfully is what has led to the development and use of these drugs that have turned out to be mostly disastrous.  

 

Because, as I say, when it comes to the actual chemistry of bodies, you don't have separate little "parts" that can be manipulated without affecting everything else.  Our bodies don't work that way. The chemistry of the immune system is not separate from endocrine which is not separate from neurological. It all interacts and it's all intertwined. Apparently evolution (or god, I guess, if you're a creationist) didn't get the memo that everything was supposed to be in its own little separate box. (Which is just as well, because we're not made of boxes, we're more like soup.)

[btdt]

 

Being a psychopharmacologist, he takes a very mechanistic approach to withdrawal syndrome. He figures if receptors are downregulated, tinkering with them might fix them. Personally, I disagree with this, my belief is withdrawal syndrome is a more widespread dysregulation and trying to upregulate serotonin receptors at best does nothing and at worst compounds the problem.

 

Ditto this. 

 

The whole idea of seeing our bodies and brains as chemical machines is SO out of date if you actually understand biochemistry and complexity at all. The chemistry of our bodies is indescribably complex. Everything feeds back on everything in complex regulatory loops. Nothing is separated in its own little box.

 

Unfortunately this mechanistic view of nature is deeply imbedded in our cultural/scientific unconscious. It did lead to some solutions over past centuries--effective surgical repairs for injuries, blood transfusions, things like that--but we've solved those problems now, and the problems we're facing now are more subtle and do not respond well to this particular sledgehammer. And this view of bodies and brains as a machine that can be tinkered with successfully is what has led to the development and use of these drugs that have turned out to be mostly disastrous.  

 

Because, as I say, when it comes to the actual chemistry of bodies, you don't have separate little "parts" that can be manipulated without affecting everything else.  Our bodies don't work that way. The chemistry of the immune system is not separate from endocrine which is not separate from neurological. It all interacts and it's all intertwined. Apparently evolution (or god, I guess, if you're a creationist) didn't get the memo that everything was supposed to be in its own little separate box. (Which is just as well, because we're not made of boxes, we're more like soup.)

 

Oh I love this one. 

thanks

I read a book once by a lady named... churchill I will try to find it...this is it

 Patricia S. Churchland ...

http://www.themontrealreview.com/2009/What-neuroscience-tells-us-about-morality.php

[mammaP]

I read that benadryl might be helpful for insomnia in withdrawal. That night I decided to try one as I had some in the cupboard.

I couldn't sleep all night, my head was like a lead ball, I couldn't lift it from the pillow but my brain was buzzing . Next day I

noticed that I'd actually taken sudafed!  It was horrible and took days to settle back to a less horrid but nowhere near normal state!

I try and make sure I read everything properly nowadays. 

[btdt]

I read that benadryl might be helpful for insomnia in withdrawal. That night I decided to try one as I had some in the cupboard.

I couldn't sleep all night, my head was like a lead ball, I couldn't lift it from the pillow but my brain was buzzing . Next day I

noticed that I'd actually taken sudafed!  It was horrible and took days to settle back to a less horrid but nowhere near normal state!

I try and make sure I read everything properly nowadays. 

If you ever find yourself trying the benedryl I would suggest 1/4 tab to start just in case you react to it.  

[btdt]

I will add when I used it there was a rebound reaction... I did not like and feel it actually set me back use only when I hit a wall and one more day of insomnia would have meant something more severe would have to be done to pull me up.  I think experience is the only way to tell this and that is not something I can tell you about... wish I could. It is a knowing your system sort of thing.