DJones: Celexa kindling reaction

[Djones1984]

Hi all, I updated my signiture and am realizing what I did was pretty stupid when I should of just held last time and not did such a big cut. I just hope I am not back at square one now. I thought it could not get much worse than it was at 1.10mg but I guess I was wrong.

 

Should have done a longer hold I guess. It is crazy how sensitive I am I guess at this low of dose.

 

Dident figure I would be feeling like I did 3 years ago when this all started.

GOD HELP ME!

[Djones1984]

Another really bad day I just can't believe this is happening to me now. I am really I severe suffering.

[Vonnegutjunky]

D-

I'm right there with you - please hang in there - we can make it through - xo

[AprilShowers]

D... I'm the same, when it flared back up for me in Nov I thought I'd go mad it was so bad. It's gradually gotten less severe and I can even eat a proper meal now in the evening but it's the second time around it's been for me and I still have massive cortisol shakes and sweats in the morning. I know you must be really suffering right now but hang on in there with me. We will both get better from this again.  

[Djones1984]

Thank you so much for replys. I am feeling a little better today I can not believe how sensitive I am to the dosage changes. This is all just such a trip! I am saying prayers for all of us.

[Djones1984]

Very bad again today I am about ready to cold turkey off the rest of Celexa and the klonopin as I feel they are just prolonging my recovery. 3 years of this and I am right back where I started.

 

I just don't know what to do. Maybe I am in tolorance withdrawl from the klonopin. Maybe I am not getting the right dosage of the Celexa as I dilute it in water and stir. I am very scared.

[Petunia]

Hang in there, its going to take a while for you to re stabilize after your recent changes. Going CT now wouldn't be a good idea, but I think you know that.

 

Its fairly common for people to have the most difficulties when down to the very low doses, if this happens, you need to slow down further, with longer holds and smaller cuts.

 

Even though the Klonopin might not be doing much to help right now, its unlikely you are in TW.

 

Your symptoms might feel as bad as when you started, but you have tapered almost completely off and this is just a temporary wave of symptoms, no progress has been lost. Hold where you are and take care of yourself using some of the ideas from our self care section, it may take several weeks or months for things to settle down again, but they will.

[Djones1984]

Thank you so much petunia! I know I shouldn't cold turkey just so hard. Do you think u should Updose Celexa anymore or just hold with what I am on for a few months?

[Djones1984]

I am experiencing extreme dizzyness to the point where I can hardly walk.

[Djones1984]

Well today was another bad day for me. Does anyone think I should Updose some more? It has been pretty severe anxiety and akathesia type symptoms.

[Djones1984]

I really don't know what to do this wave and withdrawl has me near housebound again after 3 years. I just can't believe this.

[AprilShowers]

Hang in there. Try and do really small things to support yourself mentally and physically.  

[Djones1984]

Thank you Aprilshowers! I an really concerned I have hit tolerance with the klonopin but can't do anything about till I heal from the Celexa. I have no idea what is causing what and I am scared as hell.

[Djones1984]

I have started to get a few symptoms that I haven't got before including dizziness, extreme nausea and a feeling that is kind of like a brain zap but is differnt like I can feel my brain short circuting and jolting me. The dizziness sometimes feels like my head weighs 100 pounds and I am falling sitting still.

[Rachelina]

You may have hit tolerance with Klonopin but all that means is that it's not helping you any more. It's probably not making you any worse. I also took Klonopin for SSRI withdrawal and hit tolerance within a month. I thought my withdrawal was getting worse but it was just that the K stopped taking the edge off. What many people do at this point is just take more of it to get the same effect they were getting before. That's how people wind up on crazy doses like 4 mg or more. Then they reach tolerance on the maximum dose and face a long hard taper down. You have not done this so I think you are in relatively decent shape. I decided to start tapering the K even though I'm not yet fully stable from my Paxil crash (but getting there) and so far it's going fine. When you feel ready maybe you can begin to taper K. It's a lot easier than AD tapering in my opinion, as long as you go as slow as you need to.

[Djones1984]

The only problem with that is I don't feel well at all and what if I cant make it without updosing the klonopin. I really hope that I begin to get stable on the Celexa again soon or maybe possibly updose that a little more. Just really bad off at the moment.

[Petunia]

I know what its like to want to 'do something' to get some relief, and updosing celexa again is one possibility. But there's no guarantee it would help and a chance it would make things worse, delaying stabilization.

 

When you updosed from .80 to 1.10 at the beginning of the month, was there any improvement at all? Are you keeping notes and rating your symptoms? Its important to have a clear picture of your symptom pattern.

 

If you have been worse in general since the updose, that indicates your nervous system is sensitized and suffering from instability and another updose wouldn't be advisable.

 

If you've had some improvement, but not much, then another small updose may help a little more.

 

Its scary to suddenly get new symptoms, I know, but its part of the withdrawal/recovery process. Dizziness, nausea and strange head sensations are nothing I haven't read about here hundreds of times. They come and go and sometimes come back again, or they don't. Everyone's pattern of symptoms through recovery is different, but the kinds if symptoms we get are common.

 

Its not necessary to add secondary fear by being afraid of the symptoms. I know they are uncomfortable and make functioning difficult, but they will pass. Take a look at this topic: The Dr. Claire Weekes Method of Recovering from a Sensitized Nervous System

 

There are a lot of us going through bad waves at the moment, members who are drug free, tapering and holding. Waves can be caused by anything which has an impact on the NS and because everything does, even things we're not aware of, they are inevitable once we become sensitized by withdrawal.

 

You have been on these kinds of drugs for about 15 years, similar to me. Even with slow tapering, getting down to the low doses can often be difficult after long term exposure, I see this often. It doesn't mean you can't get off the drugs, it just means slowing right down is needed if you are going to avoid symptoms. If not, then withdrawal symptoms have to be tolerated until your nervous system adapts to the lower level of the drug. Updosing sometimes works and sometimes doesn't.

 

But the way I see it, if you eventually want to be drug free, then its best to keep going in the right direction, even if it has to be slower than a snails pace, including holds of up to a year if that's what's needed to get stable again.

 

I wish I had an easy solution for you DJ, do your best to be gentle with yourself, don't add more stress with secondary fear and you will get through it.

 

(((hugs)))

[Djones1984]

Thank you this is all great information. I have been reading and I think I am going to pick up her books. To answer your question I really did not feel any better or worse since updosing and in reality I don't think updosing would even make me any better off.

 

I think all the stress from working hard, trying to run a business and moving just cought up with me. Also reaching tolorance to the klonopin and being down to very small doses of the Celexa are my problem.

 

I also fear fear itself which is not helping that I keep telling myself I am going to die.

 

Problem is I have to keep working or I will loose my home any everything I have worked for so I fear that too. I have also become so sensitive to everything again foods, sugar, chemicals, paint, stain, etc.

 

I also smoke cigarettes which probably is not helping but I am really stuck with that as I don't want to quit and go into withdrawl from that aswell.

[Djones1984]

Another day filled with Akathesia type anxiety and total miserable. Still just can't believe I am feeling just as bad as 3 years ago I just don't know how this is happening to me.

[SquirrellyGirl]

HI Djones, 

 

I think many of us have the same thoughts:  how can this be happening?  It's disgusting that we were put on meds that so profoundly changed our brains such that we suffer so much trying to get off, and we were likely never warned about any of it! I sure wasn't.   

 

What kind of self-care have you tried?  I know that you are in that secondary fear state of mind, a withdrawal symptom in its own right.  You have to try as hard as you can to catch yourself starting to have those troubling thoughts, and say NO, I'm not going to do that to  myself!  You don't HAVE to have those thoughts.  Your mind is running away with you like a little monster, but you can take away its power by be aware of it.  Have you listened to any guided meditations?  I like this one because she gives you a mantra that I found very soothing:

 

http://self-compassion.org/wp-content/uploads/meditations/LKM.MP3

 

SG

[Djones1984]

Thank you and I do have a lot of secondary fear but I honestly had hope when I was going in the right direction and feeling some recovery.

 

Now I am just loosing all hope because I am worse of than ever and just don't know why. I really am loosing all hope.

[Petunia]

 Still just can't believe I am feeling just as bad as 3 years ago I just don't know how this is happening to me.

 

I think you answered your own question a few posts up

 

I think all the stress from working hard, trying to run a business and moving just cought up with me. Also reaching tolorance to the klonopin and being down to very small doses of the Celexa are my problem.

 

I also fear fear itself which is not helping that I keep telling myself I am going to die.

 

Problem is I have to keep working or I will loose my home any everything I have worked for so I fear that too.

 

Understanding what's happening and why is the first step towards solving the problem. There are some things you can do something about and if I were you that's what I would be focusing on.

 

Hold your drugs right where they are and learn how to stop your secondary fear and this might be the key to settling yourself back down so your recovery is heading in the right direction again.

 

Go ahead and get the Claire Weekes books, DVDs, CDs or whatever you decide. Also, I have a link in my signature now with one of her DVDs, I suggest you download the whole video because the best help is towards the end. I don't know if you noticed, but there are links to audio files in this post, they are also very helpful:    http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/10964-the-dr-claire-weekes-method-of-recovering-from-a-sensitized-nervous-system/?p=200913

 

The other thing you can do is find ways to relieve stress and allow your body to relax. Different things are stress relieving for different people.  For some its exercise. Off the top of my head these are things to consider... connecting with nature, gentle walks, playing with pets, warm baths, fishing, engaging in relaxing (not competitive) hobbies, listening to soothing music, meditation, stretching and yoga.

 

Here are links with more ideas:

 

Non-drug techniques to cope with emotional symptoms

Gianna Kali's toolbox for coping with withdrawal syndrome

Best CBT techniques for anxiety and/or depression?

"Forest bathing" reduces cortisol, aids mood, immune system

 

Many people have found the work of Eckhart Tolle to be helpful with learning how to relax and live in the present moment, particularly his book 'The Power of Now'.

 

There's no reason to lose hope, this is just a bump in the road and you will get over it.

[bubble]

Hello DJones,

 

I've just caught up with your thread and wanted to let you know that I have found myself in a very similar situation you describe. I also have to be reminded of the basics and find hope again. So what SG and Petunia wrote to you is very helpful to me. I know it all but I have to be reminded over and over again.

 

I have also hit a rough patch which in certain aspects seems even worse than my big melt down 2 years ago. I also thought that I knew the process and was on the right track which made me lose my guard and these drugs are awfully sneaky.

 

Like you, I also felt like I will lose everything I've worked for but now with my head a bit about the water I feel it doesn't really have to be that way. We are just projecting our present fear and disability into the future.

 

I gave myself time off during which I will focus only on self care and let go off external demands more than I ever thought was possible. Some two weeks of such approach and things have calmed down a bit. I have another 3 weeks of self care away from work and I will do my best to postpone thinking about future till then and focus on the present moment.

 

I listened to claire weekes, read tolle, do qi gong exercises, mindfulness meditation, read books, watch tv and most importantly take long walks in nature with a dog. Most of the time I have to motivate myself hard to get going but afterwards feel better. Sometimes I just give in and do nothing. But then I pick myself up. I believe I will get better even if I don't feel it at the moment. I got better before when things looked utterly hopeless.

 

I know that my best bet is holding. I don't even feel the need to consider other options. I also realised that I will have to go a lot slower and hold a lot longer than I thought just like Petunia says, years. It's hard to accept but I do 't have a choice on how long it takes. But I do have a choice on how it feels.

 

I just stubbornly believe that healing is a matter of time. I hope you can give yourself time.

 

Hugs,

Bubble

[SquirrellyGirl]

Bubble, what a great post!  

 

I just listened to Will Hall's video on Coming Off Psych Drugs: A Harm Reduction Approach on BeyondMeds.com, and I think it should be required listening for everyone!

 

http://beyondmeds.com/2012/01/10/comingoffpsychdrugs/

 

DJones, give it a listen; at least it is something to distract you, but also hopefully empower you.  I think that is key for people who are in secondary fear, because they feel so powerless when in that place.

 

For those deciding to go ahead and come off, it's very important to be flexible as you go, and that is what you have done, Bubble.  I have yet to give qi gong a try but I think I'm about ready :-))))

 

SG 

[Djones1984]

Thank you guys for all the support it means alot! I am not hopeless but sometimes I feel that way. I am going to go see a new doctor henry Emmons who wrote the chemistry of joy. He is a doctor who understands withdrawl and takes an hollistic approach to healing.

 

I am a least going to go see what he has to say. He also runs one of the best meditation clinics in the Midwest. I will let you know how it goes.

[Djones1984]

My symptoms are absolutely not livable right now. If I were to updose Celexa a little more what would u go to I am at 1.10mg right now I was thinking 1.5 or 2.

[Rachelina]

Knowing a little more about how exactly you tapered might help people answer that, or might help you figure out the answer for yourself.

 

For example, looking at my own tapering history, I have previously crashed doing a 10% taper, but been fine around 5%. In spite of this I persisted in making 0.1 mg drops even when that got to be well over 10%. Going under 2 mg is when my drops started being more than 5%. I think this is why increasing to 2 mg is helping (albeit very slowly, I am not yet fully stable) whereas 1 mg did not help.

 

Can you do a little detective work like that to figure out what a good dose might be?

 

And let us know how it goes with Emmons! I read his book The Chemistry of Calm and thought it was great. I know he's big on supplements which we have to be careful of in withdrawal. But he has a lot of other great ideas and it's good to hear he understands withdrawal; I don't remember him mentioning it in the book I read.

[Djones1984]

I was dropping .20mg every 3 to 4 weeks pretty much the entire time because my brain got burned out on calculating the 10% and honestly dident really feel any better or worse until I got down to that 2mg or 1.5 mg range. It is after that all hell is breaking loose.

[AliG]

Thank you guys for all the support it means alot! I am not hopeless but sometimes I feel that way. I am going to go see a new doctor henry Emmons who wrote the chemistry of joy. He is a doctor who understands withdrawl and takes an hollistic approach to healing.

 

I am a least going to go see what he has to say. He also runs one of the best meditation clinics in the Midwest. I will let you know how it goes.

That's great, DJ. I hope it goes well.

Ali

[SquirrellyGirl]

HI Djones, 

 

I think if you look at the graph on the fourth page of this article, you will get a better understanding of why it will be important to continue calculating 10% or less, despite it being a big pain in the #@@:

 

http://ils.unc.edu/bmh/neoref/this.dir.unneeded/schizophrenia/review/tmp/352.pdf

 

You are way down in that dose range where a tiny dosage cut could produce a huge drop in receptor occupancy, say 10 percentage points, which is huge when it comes to the destabilization that causes!  Receptors are opening up like crazy as the drug is further tapered, and given your nervous system generated a whole bunch more receptors in an effort to regain homeostasis that probably makes the effect even more dramatic!

 

So, it is understandable that you are feeling pretty badly.  I find it empowering to look at those graphs and really ingest what the ramifications are, because it makes me accept that I will have to take it even slower when I get down to that 10% occupancy range where you are at!

 

Hang in there!  What was the last dosage you were at where you felt comfortable and how long ago was that?  Sorry if it is in your thread but I'm not feeling patient to search through at the moment :-)

 

SG

[Rachelina]

I was dropping .20mg every 3 to 4 weeks pretty much the entire time because my brain got burned out on calculating the 10% and honestly dident really feel any better or worse until I got down to that 2mg or 1.5 mg range. It is after that all hell is breaking loose.

Wow, so your story is very similar to mine. Dropping a fixed amount instead of a percentage will eventually get you into trouble, as we both found out. Maybe try 2 mg? That's when your percentage started getting to be more than 10%.

[SquirrellyGirl]

Ok, could you remind me then what kind of cuts you ended up making after you got fed up with the calculating?  What was the last dose where you still felt reasonably ok, and how long ago was that?

 

I think if you look at the graph on the fourth page of this article, it will give you some insight:

 

http://ils.unc.edu/bmh/neoref/this.dir.unneeded/schizophrenia/review/tmp/352.pdf

 

If you look at the dosages you are operating in now, you are at around 10 to 20% receptor occupancy.  But look at the difference between a couple of mgs,  Between 2 and 3 mg, or there-abouts, receptor occupancy drops by 10 percentage points!  That is huge!  If you were to make a cut that caused that big of a change, of course the wheels would come off the bus!!  10% doesn't sound like much, but that's 10% of all of your receptors opening up, suddenly sucking up serotonin out of that nerve gap that the drug was preventing before.   It is the change that causes all the symptoms.  That is why we need to creep and crawl down at that final part of the taper, because small changes in dosage lead to big changes in occupancy.  Add the fact that you nervous system added tons more receptors the longer you were on the drug, and the impact is even bigger!

 

Really look at that graph, because I know for me, understanding what it represented really helped me feel empowered about my taper but it also made me realize that when I get down to the range that you are in, I will have to take it even slower.  Otherwise:  Destabilization!

 

So, I'm afraid it really will be necessary to get back to making those annoying calculations.  It sucks, I know.  

 

sg

[Djones1984]

Wow interesting stuff thank you. I relize now too late that I really messed up again and thought I was going slow enough. So if I read that right the cut off for Celexa is like 3.4mg where you are still at 50 percent of the higher dosing.

 

The last dose I would say I felt ok at is like 1.5 or 2mg but it is kind of foggy. I am very confused on weather or not I should Updose or just hold and fight through it. I really just wish I would have known to slow down.

[lanah]

I had tolerance withdrawal from xanax after only three weeks of taking it. It was horrible so I can relate. (I did a switch to a benzo with a longer half life, but this is tricky business I wasn't informed either, the doctors did this)
hugs; 

[Petunia]

The last dose I would say I felt ok at is like 1.5 or 2mg but it is kind of foggy. I am very confused on weather or not I should Updose or just hold and fight through it. I really just wish I would have known to slow down.

 

I'm sorry you're in this tough spot, I wish there was an easy solution, unfortunately, no one can say for certain what you should do.

 

Since you updosed from .80 to 1.10 would you say your symptoms have got worse, stayed about the same or improved?

 

If they have got worse, I would not updose any more, but look for non-drug ways to manage your symptoms until you stabilize again, and then hold for a very long time before making any more cuts.

 

But if they are the same or slightly better, then a small updose may help. If you decide to increase, only go up by 10%, then monitor for another month, unless you have an immediate bad reaction. If you have a bad reaction, drop back down again. It will take 4 days for the new dose to become stable in your system.

 

Its important you keep very good notes on your symptoms with a rating system, so you can get a clear over all picture of how the change is effecting you. Your symptoms will fluctuate in a windows and waves pattern as you stabilize. If after another month you find no improvement or slight improvement, you can do another 10% increase.

 

Once symptoms start decreasing to a bearable level, then you would probably want to hold for a very long time. I'm thinking in the range of somewhere like 6 months. This will give your NS a chance to catch up with the previous fast tapering.

 

If and when you do decide to taper again, if I were you I would be looking at 5% cuts and 4 - 6 weeks holds.

 

I believe its still possible to get your taper back under control, if you are careful and don't make any big changes. Also look at all the other aspects of your life which may be causing stress or effecting your nervous system, things like caffeine, alcohol, exercise, diet.

 

Please let us know what you decide to do.

 

edited to add:  Even though the Klonopin is probably not doing anything to help now, any change to that dose would likely cause further destabilization and I wouldn't recommend touching it yet.

Edited January 27, 2016 by Petunia

[Djones1984]

Thank you so much for the reply petunia! I Updosed 2 days ago to 1.5mg would this be too much you think? I dident know what to do but that is where I am at the only thing that changed is a headache and weird feeling in brain. Should I go back to 1.21mg which would be 10% of the 1.10?