Jump to content

MIA Blog Entry by Dr. Shipko on WD


compsports

Recommended Posts

  • Administrator
Seems to me Open Dialog online already has been tried anyway; it's called the yahoo comments section.

 

LOL! My sentiments exactly.

 

I had no idea there were so many sympathetic onlookers in that discussion. Thanks, y'all.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Administrator

http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2013/08/gl_honan-conversation/

 

Comment Sections Are Wastelands Ruled by Trolls. Here Are Alternatives.

By Mat Honan 08.23.13

A decade or more ago, Internet publishers entered into what now seems like a collective delusion: That a comments section is a necessary component of a web page. Granted, that notion is a relic of an era predating social media, when there was no effective way to talk publicly about what we read online. But it persists with zombie determination. We’ve bought into the fallacy of comments so completely that they remain nearly universal—and universally terrible. A lot of people have tried to fix them. Yet, as Digg CEO Andrew McLaughlin says, “everyone who runs a commenting system ends up killing themselves or shooting up a post office.” It’s hyperbole, sure, but trying to wrangle online conversations is a messy, frustrating, and typically thankless affair that involves more time than most people have. Even a dedicated team of moderators can hardly compete with legions of trolls and spambots. Nonetheless, lots of people are trying to make you read the comments again—because in those rare moments when comments are great, they are some of the best parts of the Internet.

 

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Moderator Emeritus

Shipko's post on MIA was the first time I visited the site and won't be going back. 

From what I saw it is confusing and can't imagine how it could be of any help to anyone.

And Trolls are out in force, I felt agitated in the short while I was there and can imagine

lots of people who are ill will be worse for the experience. 

**I am not a medical professional, if in doubt please consult a doctor with withdrawal knowledge.

 

 

Different drugs occasionally (mostly benzos) 1976 - 1981 (no problem)

1993 - 2002 in and out of hospital. every type of drug + ECT. Staring with seroxat

2002  effexor. 

Tapered  March 2012 to March 2013, ending with 5 beads.

Withdrawal April 2013 . Reinstated 5 beads reduced to 4 beads May 2013

Restarted taper  Nov 2013  

OFF EFFEXOR Feb 2015    :D 

Tapered atenolol and omeprazole Dec 2013 - May 2014

 

Tapering tramadol, Feb 2015 100mg , March 2015 50mg  

 July 2017 30mg.  May 15 2018 25mg

Taking fish oil, magnesium, B12, folic acid, bilberry eyebright for eye pressure. 

 

My story http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/4199-hello-mammap-checking-in/page-33

 

Lesson learned, slow down taper at lower doses. Taper no more than 10% of CURRENT dose if possible

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
UnfoldingSky

Shipko's post on MIA was the first time I visited the site and won't be going back. 

From what I saw it is confusing and can't imagine how it could be of any help to anyone.

And Trolls are out in force, I felt agitated in the short while I was there and can imagine

lots of people who are ill will be worse for the experience. 

 

It was very agitating for me as well. 

I am not a medical professional and nothing I say is a medical opinion or meant to be medical advice, please seek a competent and trusted medical professional to consult for all medical decisions.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

If you can, follow me through several stories....

 

A child psychiatrist told a story about her daughter, adopted at age 4 from an orphanage in China. At dinner, the new daughter would eat and eat and eat. This is not uncommon for children who have not had a secure source of food. The doctor felt ambivalent and anxious...she knew her daughter was grossly overeating yet she knew trying to control her eating was not the answer. So in time the doctor and her daughter travelled to visit the doctor's best friend. And the friend had a gift for the little girl. Beautiful tins filled with every kind of specialized raisin...chocolate, yogurt, and more. And she told the little girl, " These are all for you, your very own. You can have all you want, anytime you want." And the little girl never overate again.

 

My first round of Prozac was for a true depression. After 9 months of therapy, the pdoc gave me a schedule for going off. I think it was 4 weeks long. But he wrote a script for 1 daily for a year. We were moving. 6 weeks after I stopped therapy, I got the same stomach ache that I had with the depression, although I didn't feel depressed. I wasn't concerned...I thought I must still be depressed, pills would fix it, and I took some more pills, then reduced, then stopped, then stomach ache came back. I followed this random plan over and over until I took every pill..it was 2 or 3 years...and finally the stomach pain never came back. In hindsight, I wonder if it was withdrawal, but it was totally non-traumatic, because I just took a bit more medication.

 

I had a rocky drop most of the way off Wellbutrin, oscillating between withdrawal and the side effect of mania. So then I was determined to rest through the summer. But my new pdoc wanted me to come off soon. So I tried, and was having manageable but real symptoms with a smallish drop. Finally I sat myself down and said to my brain, "There is no hurry to get off this drug. You don't have to be sick. Whenever you need Wellbutrin you can have it." I gave myself little bits with any symptom. It was not totally distress-free, but it wasn't too bad. And I was amazed that I saw the dr. on June 20, on 50 mg, and my last dose was 1.25mg on July 8. I had some issues off, but I think they were from my oxazepam going into interdose withdrawal and my fibromyalgia resurfacing.

 

So I have been trying to regroup on the oxazepam, but I have decided I am just going to try taking 2.5 mg when I need it, and see what happens. I dearly hope if my brain blows up you all will send me sweet emails.

 

Something broke inside me when I read Dr. Shipko's MIA posting. Although so much has been learned, my dream is that we can find some ways to experiment and find a way that people can more quickly and easily come off these horrible drugs.

1st round Prozac 1989/90, clear depression symptoms. 2nd round Prozac started 1999 when admitted to dr. I was tired. Prozac pooped out, switch to Cymbalta 3/2006. Diagnosed with bipolar disorder due to mania 6/2006--then I was taken abruptly off Cymbalta and didn't know I had SSRI withdrawal. Lots of meds for my intractable "bipolar" symptoms.

Zyprexa started about 9/06, mostly 5mg. Tapered 4/12 through12/29/12

Wellbutrin. XL 300 mg started 1/07, tapered 1/18/13 through 7/8/13

Oxazepam mostly continuously since 6/06, 30mg since 12/12, tapered 1.17.14 through 8.26.15

11/06 Lithium 600mg twice daily, 2.2.14 400mg TID DIY liquid, 2.12.14 1150mg, 3.2.14 1100mg, 3.18.14 1075mg, 4/14 updose to 1100mg, 6.1.14 900 mg capsules 7.8.14 810mg, 8.17.14 725mg, 8.24.24 700mg...10.22.14 487.5mg, 3.9.15 475mg, 4.1.15 462.5mg 4.21.15 450mg 8.11.15 375mg, 11.28.15 362.5mg, back to 375mg four days later, 3.4.16 updose to 475 (too much going on to risk trouble)

9/4/13 Toprol-XL 25mg daily for sudden hypertension, tapered 11.12.13 through 5.3.14, last 10 days or so switched to atenolol

7.4.14 Started Walsh Protocol

56 years old

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Moderator Emeritus

Meime I love that story about the little girl and like how you linked it with us

. I've thought about taking tiny bits when symptoms occur but I am so scared of

full blown protracted withdrawal somewhere down the line.

I hope it works for you with the oxazepam, I've read of others doing it that way 

on my travels round the web but don't know how successful they are. 

Keep us updated won't you? 

 

I think Dr Shipko affected a lot of people, me included but I trust Alto's research

and Gias too. My mum used to say "you can live in hope or die in despair" 

SA gives us hope, Dr Shipko leaves us in despair. I'm just glad I found this site first

and not MIA! 

**I am not a medical professional, if in doubt please consult a doctor with withdrawal knowledge.

 

 

Different drugs occasionally (mostly benzos) 1976 - 1981 (no problem)

1993 - 2002 in and out of hospital. every type of drug + ECT. Staring with seroxat

2002  effexor. 

Tapered  March 2012 to March 2013, ending with 5 beads.

Withdrawal April 2013 . Reinstated 5 beads reduced to 4 beads May 2013

Restarted taper  Nov 2013  

OFF EFFEXOR Feb 2015    :D 

Tapered atenolol and omeprazole Dec 2013 - May 2014

 

Tapering tramadol, Feb 2015 100mg , March 2015 50mg  

 July 2017 30mg.  May 15 2018 25mg

Taking fish oil, magnesium, B12, folic acid, bilberry eyebright for eye pressure. 

 

My story http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/4199-hello-mammap-checking-in/page-33

 

Lesson learned, slow down taper at lower doses. Taper no more than 10% of CURRENT dose if possible

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I read Dr. Shipko's post too and it did not make me feel well. 

Of course I would like to believe Alto that he is wrong and everyone does recover in the end.

But now at 6 years off, I still have lingering symptoms. Though it is surely better than the first years, I do not notice much progrssion anymore and the neuropathic symptoms are still too bad to hunt for a job.

Alto admitted recently that she herself is also suffering from WD even after almost 7 years off. So I feel the fear that dr. Shipke is not far from the truth, although one can never know for sure whether further recovery will eventuelly come, even after 6 years or more.

But as people say, we have to choose between hope and despair and we just must hope that time, even more time will be the answer for us...

10 mg Paxil/Seroxat since 2002
several attempts to quit since 2004
Quit c/t again Oktober 2007, in protracted w/d since then
after 3.5 years slight improvement but still on the road

after 6 years pretty much recovered but still some nasty residual sypmtons
after 8.5 years working again on a 90% base and basically functioning normally again!

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Barbarannamated

Claudius, well said.

 

I could not read all of the comments and dialogue to Dr. Shipko's post, but several of us do have permanent iatrogenic neurologic and cardiac conditions caused by the drugs. I don't mean to take away anyone's hope and I'm sure many people are able to take these drugs and stop without problems. But are we not contradicting ourselves to say these drugs are harmful and then turn around and say that everyone heals in time? Why should the FDA make any changes if, indeed, everyone heals or returns to baseline condition?

Pristiq tapered over 8 months ending Spring 2011 after 18 years of polydrugging that began w/Zoloft for fatigue/general malaise (not mood). CURRENT: 1mg Klonopin qhs (SSRI bruxism), 75mg trazodone qhs, various hormonesLitigation for 11 years for Work-related injury, settled 2004. Involuntary medical retirement in 2001 (age 39). 2012 - brain MRI showing diffuse, chronic cerebrovascular damage/demyelination possibly vasculitis/cerebritis. Dx w/autoimmune polyendocrine failure.<p>2013 - Dx w/CNS Sjogren's Lupus (FANA antibodies first appeared in 1997 but missed by doc).

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Administrator

I'm afraid Dr. Shipko is inclined to make the most dramatic statements, then when questioned will soften them somewhat.

 

His MIA piece seemed to say there is a high risk of permanent damage from going off drugs. However, in a clarification http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/4787-mia-blog-entry-by-dr-shipko-on-wd/?p=60372 , he admitted that probably only the very unlucky few have long-term problems, and even then they may recover over time.

 

What he meant to say in his original post is that people need to be prepared for possibly becoming unable to work or otherwise incapacitated for a time because of withdrawal syndrome (or whatever he wants to call it).

 

If he had written his article as a report of some of the worst problems he's encountered in getting people off psychiatric drugs, it would have been much more valuable. Instead, he's muddied the waters by making going off seem highly risky. He also completely mis-spoke in implying that tapering is NOT a safer way of going off drugs -- he knows how to taper, he knows it's safer, and will provide that service.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Moderator Emeritus

Claudius, well said.I could not read all of the comments and dialogue to Dr. Shipko's post, but several of us do have permanent iatrogenic neurologic and cardiac conditions caused by the drugs. I don't mean to take away anyone's hope and I'm sure many people are able to take these drugs and stop without problems. But are we not contradicting ourselves to say these drugs are harmful and then turn around and say that everyone heals in time? Why should the FDA make any changes if, indeed, everyone heals or returns to baseline condition?

 

It seems to me that any drug that can even briefly and temporarily disable a person should carry some heavy-duty warnings.

Psychotropic drug history: Pristiq 50 mg. (mid-September 2010 through February 2011), Remeron (mid-September 2010 through January 2011), Lexapro 10 mg. (mid-February 2011 through mid-December 2011), Lorazepam (Ativan) 1 mg. as needed mid-September 2010 through early March 2012

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Hanlon's Razor


Introduction: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1588-introducing-jemima/

 

Success Story: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/6263-success-jemima-survives-lexapro-and-dr-dickhead-too/

Please note that I am not a medical professional and my advice is based on personal experience, reading, and anecdotal information posted by other sufferers.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Claudius, well said.I could not read all of the comments and dialogue to Dr. Shipko's post, but several of us do have permanent iatrogenic neurologic and cardiac conditions caused by the drugs. I don't mean to take away anyone's hope and I'm sure many people are able to take these drugs and stop without problems. But are we not contradicting ourselves to say these drugs are harmful and then turn around and say that everyone heals in time? Why should the FDA make any changes if, indeed, everyone heals or returns to baseline condition?

 

It seems to me that any drug that can even briefly and temporarily disable a person should carry some heavy-duty warnings.

 

Totally agree Jemima but most doctors think drugs are harmless and as a result will never disclose any. It is very frightening.

Drug cocktail 1995 - 2010
Started taper of Adderall, Wellbutrin XL, Remeron, and Doxepin in 2006
Finished taper on June 10, 2010

Temazepam on a PRN basis approximately twice a month - 2014 to 2016

Beginning in 2017 - Consumption increased to about two times per week

April 2017 - Increased to taking it full time for insomnia

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Moderator Emeritus

I'm afraid Dr. Shipko is inclined to make the most dramatic statements, then when questioned will soften them somewhat. His MIA piece seemed to say there is a high risk of permanent damage from going off drugs. However, in a clarification http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/4787-mia-blog-entry-by-dr-shipko-on-wd/?p=60372 , he admitted that probably only the very unlucky few have long-term problems, and even then they may recover over time. What he meant to say in his original post is that people need to be prepared for possibly becoming unable to work or otherwise incapacitated for a time because of withdrawal syndrome (or whatever he wants to call it). If he had written his article as a report of some of the worst problems he's encountered in getting people off psychiatric drugs, it would have been much more valuable. Instead, he's muddied the waters by making going off seem highly risky. He also completely mis-spoke in implying that tapering is NOT a safer way of going off drugs -- he knows how to taper, he knows it's safer, and will provide that service.

That's my impression of Shipko actually--that he's a bit of an egotistical showboater. I'm not sure he really understands the true consequences of his words in terms of actual lives that might be ruined because of things he says with such certainty that are actually not nearly as certain as he claims.

 

I just think he gets a bit sensationalistic (not to say arrogant, although that may be part of the problem too) and doesn't really think it through.

 

I've never really cared for his work. I might like him in person if we had a good deep conversation, but I find him lacking in true compassion and depth of understanding of the actual consequences of what he says and how he says it.  Humility is not strong in this one. Which is not a good thing when lives are at stake.

Started on Prozac and Xanax in 1992 for PTSD after an assault. One drug led to more, the usual story. Got sicker and sicker, but believed I needed the drugs for my "underlying disease". Long story...lost everything. Life savings, home, physical and mental health, relationships, friendships, ability to work, everything. Amitryptiline, Prozac, bupropion, buspirone, flurazepam, diazepam, alprazolam, Paxil, citalopram, lamotrigine, gabapentin...probably more I've forgotten. 

Started multidrug taper in Feb 2010.  Doing a very slow microtaper, down to low doses now and feeling SO much better, getting my old personality and my brain back! Able to work full time, have a full social life, and cope with stress better than ever. Not perfect, but much better. After 23 lost years. Big Pharma has a lot to answer for. And "medicine for profit" is just not a great idea.

 

Feb 15 2010:  300 mg Neurontin  200 Lamictal   10 Celexa      0.65 Xanax   and 5 mg Ambien 

Feb 10 2014:   62 Lamictal    1.1 Celexa         0.135 Xanax    1.8 Valium

Feb 10 2015:   50 Lamictal      0.875 Celexa    0.11 Xanax      1.5 Valium

Feb 15 2016:   47.5 Lamictal   0.75 Celexa      0.0875 Xanax    1.42 Valium    

2/12/20             12                       0.045               0.007                   1 

May 2021            7                       0.01                  0.0037                   1

 

I'm not a doctor. Any advice I give is just my civilian opinion.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Moderator Emeritus

I also thought that Gia had a very good point in her comments (if this is the piece I think it is)--it's irresponsible to claim that people will be harmed for life when nobody actually has that information. That data does not exist. Those studies have not been done.

 

He is just speculating based on a handful of difficult cases where people have not fully recovered over the course of the time he has known them.

 

As I have said elsewhere, I personally don't know anyone with protracted withdrawal (and no other health issues complicating the picture) who feels that they have simply stopped having any further improvement, even if it is very slow now, and unless you follow a statistically significant cohort over the full course of their lives you simply cannot claim that you have information you don't have.

Started on Prozac and Xanax in 1992 for PTSD after an assault. One drug led to more, the usual story. Got sicker and sicker, but believed I needed the drugs for my "underlying disease". Long story...lost everything. Life savings, home, physical and mental health, relationships, friendships, ability to work, everything. Amitryptiline, Prozac, bupropion, buspirone, flurazepam, diazepam, alprazolam, Paxil, citalopram, lamotrigine, gabapentin...probably more I've forgotten. 

Started multidrug taper in Feb 2010.  Doing a very slow microtaper, down to low doses now and feeling SO much better, getting my old personality and my brain back! Able to work full time, have a full social life, and cope with stress better than ever. Not perfect, but much better. After 23 lost years. Big Pharma has a lot to answer for. And "medicine for profit" is just not a great idea.

 

Feb 15 2010:  300 mg Neurontin  200 Lamictal   10 Celexa      0.65 Xanax   and 5 mg Ambien 

Feb 10 2014:   62 Lamictal    1.1 Celexa         0.135 Xanax    1.8 Valium

Feb 10 2015:   50 Lamictal      0.875 Celexa    0.11 Xanax      1.5 Valium

Feb 15 2016:   47.5 Lamictal   0.75 Celexa      0.0875 Xanax    1.42 Valium    

2/12/20             12                       0.045               0.007                   1 

May 2021            7                       0.01                  0.0037                   1

 

I'm not a doctor. Any advice I give is just my civilian opinion.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Barbarannamated

Rhi,

 

In my statement above, I was referring to Marmite who had to get a pacemaker when her heart rate dropped to 10bpm during withdrawal. Also, Aria has a permanent neurological condition. I can't prove a causal link between my MRI findings/demyelination, but there is a woman in Denmark whose case went to court for very similar findings caused by SSRIs. The main symptoms of demyelination in my case are depression, mood swings, pain, fatigue. And hallucinations in some cases. Very similar to symptoms of withdrawal.

 

Of course, demyelination is a hallmark in many neurologic conditions and have psych manifestations that are treated with ADs and APs. I'm certain that I would not have found this out had I not withdrawn as I did. The symptoms emerged when drug was withdrawn so I still hold out hope that it will improve.

 

I understand what you're saying about lack of studies proving causal link, but there is a lot of anecdotal info floating around. I suspect if all of us got MRIs, patterns would emerge. (I DO NOT recommend this because having it on film really screws with the mind. :( )

 

How was it proven that SSRIs cause fetal issues, autism, etc...? Fewer confounding factors make it clearer, I assume.

 

I'm getting off topic of Dr.Shipko's writings but wanted to explain my earlier comment.

Pristiq tapered over 8 months ending Spring 2011 after 18 years of polydrugging that began w/Zoloft for fatigue/general malaise (not mood). CURRENT: 1mg Klonopin qhs (SSRI bruxism), 75mg trazodone qhs, various hormonesLitigation for 11 years for Work-related injury, settled 2004. Involuntary medical retirement in 2001 (age 39). 2012 - brain MRI showing diffuse, chronic cerebrovascular damage/demyelination possibly vasculitis/cerebritis. Dx w/autoimmune polyendocrine failure.<p>2013 - Dx w/CNS Sjogren's Lupus (FANA antibodies first appeared in 1997 but missed by doc).

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 3 weeks later...
  • Moderator Emeritus

 

http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2013/08/gl_honan-conversation/

 

Comment Sections Are Wastelands Ruled by Trolls. Here Are Alternatives.

By Mat Honan 08.23.13

A decade or more ago, Internet publishers entered into what now seems like a collective delusion: That a comments section is a necessary component of a web page. Granted, that notion is a relic of an era predating social media, when there was no effective way to talk publicly about what we read online. But it persists with zombie determination. We’ve bought into the fallacy of comments so completely that they remain nearly universal—and universally terrible. A lot of people have tried to fix them. Yet, as Digg CEO Andrew McLaughlin says, “everyone who runs a commenting system ends up killing themselves or shooting up a post office.” It’s hyperbole, sure, but trying to wrangle online conversations is a messy, frustrating, and typically thankless affair that involves more time than most people have. Even a dedicated team of moderators can hardly compete with legions of trolls and spambots. Nonetheless, lots of people are trying to make you read the comments again—because in those rare moments when comments are great, they are some of the best parts of the Internet.

 

 

 

Certainly has been my experience. The only blog that I read the comments of is my favorite left-wing snarky political commentary site, which has a standing joke that they don't allow comments. (Commenters have to be approved and comments are heavily moderated.)

 

Unmoderated forums are just as bad. Just too many crazies out there with nothing better to do. Or something.

Started on Prozac and Xanax in 1992 for PTSD after an assault. One drug led to more, the usual story. Got sicker and sicker, but believed I needed the drugs for my "underlying disease". Long story...lost everything. Life savings, home, physical and mental health, relationships, friendships, ability to work, everything. Amitryptiline, Prozac, bupropion, buspirone, flurazepam, diazepam, alprazolam, Paxil, citalopram, lamotrigine, gabapentin...probably more I've forgotten. 

Started multidrug taper in Feb 2010.  Doing a very slow microtaper, down to low doses now and feeling SO much better, getting my old personality and my brain back! Able to work full time, have a full social life, and cope with stress better than ever. Not perfect, but much better. After 23 lost years. Big Pharma has a lot to answer for. And "medicine for profit" is just not a great idea.

 

Feb 15 2010:  300 mg Neurontin  200 Lamictal   10 Celexa      0.65 Xanax   and 5 mg Ambien 

Feb 10 2014:   62 Lamictal    1.1 Celexa         0.135 Xanax    1.8 Valium

Feb 10 2015:   50 Lamictal      0.875 Celexa    0.11 Xanax      1.5 Valium

Feb 15 2016:   47.5 Lamictal   0.75 Celexa      0.0875 Xanax    1.42 Valium    

2/12/20             12                       0.045               0.007                   1 

May 2021            7                       0.01                  0.0037                   1

 

I'm not a doctor. Any advice I give is just my civilian opinion.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Administrator

Yes, it's obvious a lightly moderated Web comments section cannot claim to be offering Open Dialogue therapy.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I just read the first few paragraphs and didn't need to go beyond his thoughts that prescribing a benzo is an option. I have no words beyond the ones that I posted in response to that. What kind of an idiot adds more drugs to an already bad situation, worst of all, benzos? Idiot much?

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 months later...

http://www.madinamerica.com/2013/08/ssri-discontinuation-is-even-more-problematic-than-acknowledged/

 

Basically Shipko says that some people will develop a form of Tardive Dyskinesia/akathesia and last forever even after the drugs are stopped.

 

Pretty irresponsible and hopeless, this article.  Like Shipko says, there's no studies or research done on any of this, so let's not  take his OPINION too seriously.

 

Alto, I see you responded to him on his article.  Any further thoughts on this?

On Venlafaxine XR 75mg > 20 years, because a general MD decided to try these new "calming pills" taken from his sample closet because my pulse was a little high since I get nervous going to the doctor.

 

June 2010 - Cold turkey

September 2010 - Sudden onset of EXTREME anxiety, constant terror and fear that got marginally better at night.  I had no idea what or why this was; had no idea it was the quitting of Effexor.  (I was never in my life even remotely like this)

December 2010 - reinstated 75mgs Effexor XR, felt no better months later

January 2011 - Began 5% taper every month

2012 - Anxiety began improving by had many windows and waves

January 2014 - Fell back into sudden onset of same anxiety, fear as in 2010; realized I was tapering too quickly.  I was not allowing withdrawal effects to dissipate before another taper.  Began 2% taper every 6 to 8 months

2016 - Fear, anxiety began to wane

2017, 18 & 19 - Constant Fear & anxiety stopped, just occasional minor bouts that lasted 3 days or so

December 2020 - Now at ~40mgs Effexor XR, 2.5mgs Crestor (Cutting 5mg pill in half due to sudden palpitations or PVCs)

 
 
Link to post
Share on other sites

I read this piece some time ago and found it disturbing. Agreed with one of his respondents who pointed out that his anecdotal evidence is based on his own patient population: people with very severe original or withdrawal problems, and that this "data" doesn't form a sound basis for drawing broad conclusions. I am making a choice today to try to take good care of myself during a very slow withdrawal process and plod along with patience, humor, and hope. It's scary but I think possible.

Prozac 20 mg/daily since 1995

July 19, 2013, initial cut to 15 mg; Aug. 2 updosed to 18 mg; Aug. 19, to 16.2 mg
Held at 2.52 ml/day Jan. 11-April 16, 2014
April 16, 2014, cut to 2.40 ml/day
Dec. 29, 2014, 1.84 ml/day, and held there almost six months
June 23, 2015, 1.75ml/day; July 21, 2015, 1.70 ml/day
Aug. 13, 2015, 1.60 ml/day

Feb. 7, 2016, .7 ml/day; April 26, 2016, .6 ml/day

 

Taking anastrozole (estrogen blocker)
 
Successfully completed long, slow Klonopin taper November 2011. :ph34r:

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Member
cymbaltawithdrawal5600

Here is the link to where this was discussed:

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/4787-mia-blog-entry-by-dr-shipko-on-wd/

 

Controversial, to say the least.....

What happened and how I arrived here: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/4243-cymbaltawithdrawal5600-introduction/#entry50878

 

July 2016 I have decided to leave my story here at SA unfinished. I have left my contact information in my profile for anyone who wishes to talk to me. I have a posting history spanning nearly 4 years and 3000+ posts all over the site.

 

Thank you to all who participated in my recovery. I'll miss talking to you but know that I'll be cheering you on from the sidelines, suffering and rejoicing with you in spirit, as you go on in your journey.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Administrator

See above. Dr. Shipko wrote in a way that can be easily misconstrued.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hopefull

 

Shipko has responded to many folks but has neglected to respond to my critical comments...I find this interesting..perhaps he's thinking about how to do it...

 

hmmm

Hopefully, that is the situation because you definitely raised some points that deserve a response.

 

I will be honest though about admitting that I am not as upset about his blog entry as most people are.  I am not sure why.

 

Maybe because it seems my life has gone downhill greatly since I started tapering off of these meds so what Shipko was stating wasn't a great shock.   I mean, I really had no choice but to taper them since I was suffering horrible side effects. But to be honest, if someone had forcasted the troubles I would go through before tapering, it would have made me think extra hard about whether I wanted to do this or not. I still would have but at least, having the discussion would have been helpful.

 

I think also I wonder if I had stayed on the meds and had been diagnosed with sleep apnea, if it would have been easier to adjust to sleeping on the machine since I wouldn't have been dealing with withdrawal insomnia. But I know there is no guarantee I would have been diagnosed with it if I had stayed on the meds.

 

CS

Me too!  Right after my cold turkey from Effexor is when I got sleep apnea.

On Venlafaxine XR 75mg > 20 years, because a general MD decided to try these new "calming pills" taken from his sample closet because my pulse was a little high since I get nervous going to the doctor.

 

June 2010 - Cold turkey

September 2010 - Sudden onset of EXTREME anxiety, constant terror and fear that got marginally better at night.  I had no idea what or why this was; had no idea it was the quitting of Effexor.  (I was never in my life even remotely like this)

December 2010 - reinstated 75mgs Effexor XR, felt no better months later

January 2011 - Began 5% taper every month

2012 - Anxiety began improving by had many windows and waves

January 2014 - Fell back into sudden onset of same anxiety, fear as in 2010; realized I was tapering too quickly.  I was not allowing withdrawal effects to dissipate before another taper.  Began 2% taper every 6 to 8 months

2016 - Fear, anxiety began to wane

2017, 18 & 19 - Constant Fear & anxiety stopped, just occasional minor bouts that lasted 3 days or so

December 2020 - Now at ~40mgs Effexor XR, 2.5mgs Crestor (Cutting 5mg pill in half due to sudden palpitations or PVCs)

 
 
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

http://www.madinamerica.com/2013/08/ssri-discontinuation-is-even-more-problematic-than-acknowledged/

 

Basically Shipko says that some people will develop a form of Tardive Dyskinesia/akathesia and last forever even after the drugs are stopped.

 

 

 

I had severe akathisia in early withdrawal and then a variant (it was "controlled" by other drugs I was put on, at least partly, though they also caused it--what's often not told to people in a scenario like mine is that almost all  psych drugs they'll try to put you on to treat it can cause it) for a number of years.  I may also have tardive dyskinesia.  The akathisia did go away eventually.  I spent a long time looking through the medical info available online about akathisia when I was first injured and I can't claim to have found any that documents permanent akathisia from any drug.  Obviously some people will be drugged for it so I suppose it's possible, but, though there are some reports of long-standing akathisia like I had, I could find none where it was actually permanent.

 

And regarding tardive dyskinesia, it is a risk with antidepressants and one people should be made aware of BEFORE they take the drugs.   However, at least in my case,  you wouldn't even know I had it.  It's become very mild, which may have something to do with how I treated it (I tried a bunch of different ways including a few which have likely never been documented before, and they seem to have helped) or may be just the course it would have taken anyway, or more likely, a combination of both. I also got off drugs and stayed off them, which I believe is probably critical to clearing it up.  So, again, even though it sounds dire (and I'm not saying it isn't for some--a friend had it really badly after being given a boatload of drugs over decades) it's not the case that winding up with it invariably means a massive amount of suffering for everyone.  (Just to be clear though, I never would have taken drugs had I known they could cause it, or other problems like akathisia.)

 

It's entirely possible that it will clear up for me.  I also have read of another case which was fairly similar to mine where, apparently, the person suffering had it in a really severe way for a long time, then abruptly it stopped.  So it would appear there's hope that even people who are severely harmed by drugs in these ways can recover. 

I am not a medical professional and nothing I say is a medical opinion or meant to be medical advice, please seek a competent and trusted medical professional to consult for all medical decisions.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Administrator

Many people do recover from akathisia.

 

If you read the ENTIRE discussion with Dr. Shipko, you will see in the comments he explains he is talking about extreme cases. His lead article was not very clear.

 

John, please do not surf the Web looking for discouraging information. The Web is so large and so full of garbage, you will be sure to find any viewpoint you seek.

 

Please read more in this site for background information that will enable you to assess what you see elsewhere.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

Link to post
Share on other sites

II will pop in and say that my dad had extreme tardive dyskinesia that was missed because he has a severe traumatic brain injury with progressive symptoms. Because of his increasing disability he was moved to a nursing home in my mom's town. It was the lowly country doctor, after the specialists, who insisted that the antipsychotic be stopped (and replaced with a small dose of Lamictal). Within a year, he was a different person.

1st round Prozac 1989/90, clear depression symptoms. 2nd round Prozac started 1999 when admitted to dr. I was tired. Prozac pooped out, switch to Cymbalta 3/2006. Diagnosed with bipolar disorder due to mania 6/2006--then I was taken abruptly off Cymbalta and didn't know I had SSRI withdrawal. Lots of meds for my intractable "bipolar" symptoms.

Zyprexa started about 9/06, mostly 5mg. Tapered 4/12 through12/29/12

Wellbutrin. XL 300 mg started 1/07, tapered 1/18/13 through 7/8/13

Oxazepam mostly continuously since 6/06, 30mg since 12/12, tapered 1.17.14 through 8.26.15

11/06 Lithium 600mg twice daily, 2.2.14 400mg TID DIY liquid, 2.12.14 1150mg, 3.2.14 1100mg, 3.18.14 1075mg, 4/14 updose to 1100mg, 6.1.14 900 mg capsules 7.8.14 810mg, 8.17.14 725mg, 8.24.24 700mg...10.22.14 487.5mg, 3.9.15 475mg, 4.1.15 462.5mg 4.21.15 450mg 8.11.15 375mg, 11.28.15 362.5mg, back to 375mg four days later, 3.4.16 updose to 475 (too much going on to risk trouble)

9/4/13 Toprol-XL 25mg daily for sudden hypertension, tapered 11.12.13 through 5.3.14, last 10 days or so switched to atenolol

7.4.14 Started Walsh Protocol

56 years old

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 6 months later...
  • Moderator Emeritus

Kermit, the discussions manager, told me he's applying the Finnish "Open Dialog" philosophy to the comments section, on the theory that "crazy disappears" in a context of permissive listening. 

Ha!

 

OMG that is seriously hilarious.

 

This guy may be nice, but he clearly has very little experience with the Internet. He needs to spend a few weeks on reddit. Or 4chan.

Started on Prozac and Xanax in 1992 for PTSD after an assault. One drug led to more, the usual story. Got sicker and sicker, but believed I needed the drugs for my "underlying disease". Long story...lost everything. Life savings, home, physical and mental health, relationships, friendships, ability to work, everything. Amitryptiline, Prozac, bupropion, buspirone, flurazepam, diazepam, alprazolam, Paxil, citalopram, lamotrigine, gabapentin...probably more I've forgotten. 

Started multidrug taper in Feb 2010.  Doing a very slow microtaper, down to low doses now and feeling SO much better, getting my old personality and my brain back! Able to work full time, have a full social life, and cope with stress better than ever. Not perfect, but much better. After 23 lost years. Big Pharma has a lot to answer for. And "medicine for profit" is just not a great idea.

 

Feb 15 2010:  300 mg Neurontin  200 Lamictal   10 Celexa      0.65 Xanax   and 5 mg Ambien 

Feb 10 2014:   62 Lamictal    1.1 Celexa         0.135 Xanax    1.8 Valium

Feb 10 2015:   50 Lamictal      0.875 Celexa    0.11 Xanax      1.5 Valium

Feb 15 2016:   47.5 Lamictal   0.75 Celexa      0.0875 Xanax    1.42 Valium    

2/12/20             12                       0.045               0.007                   1 

May 2021            7                       0.01                  0.0037                   1

 

I'm not a doctor. Any advice I give is just my civilian opinion.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Administrator
Altostrata

Yeah.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 4 weeks later...

Here is an updated version from Shipko, more encouraging

 

Playing the odds, revisited

http://www.madinamerica.com/2014/07/shooting-odds-revisited/

Prozac 1999-2009 quit semi cold turkey.

 

2012 Placed on Seroquel 25 mg, Tranxene (Clorezepate) 3.75 mg 3x a day, Remeron 30 mg for anxiety/akathesia.

 

Weaned off Seroquel and Tranxene .to Remeron 15 Mg.

In May 2014 tried quitting Remeron at its lowest dose. Had severe withdrawals.Reinstated Remeron at 30 mg by doctor. August 5 2014 entered hospital. Doctor pulled the Remeron and bridged it to Pamelor (Nortriptyline) 40mg and Zyprexa 2.5mg.After removing the Remeron all my bad symptoms went away and I am stable.

 

9/11/14 - 7.5 mg tranxene, 40mg Pamelor, Zyprexa 2.5mg

12/29/14 -  20mg Pamelor, 1/6/15,  7/31/15 3.5mg, 8/10/15 3.2 mg, 9/15/15 2.2mg, 10/15/15 1.8mg

(Feb 2016 - 1.4mg Pamelor only -  OFF OF TRANXENE AND ZYPREXA SINCE DEC 2014 BENZO FREE Since 2014. Nortrityline (Pamelor) .8mg Aug 2016

March 2017 DRUG FREE

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Administrator

Dr. Shipko has written an updated article, see http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/6773-an-update-from-dr-shipko-very-encouraging/ Comments should be posted there.

 

As Dr. Shipko's August 2013 article has caused nothing but confusion, I'm going to close this topic now.

 

If you are confused, be sure to read the clarification of Dr. Shipko's August 2013 article cited in post #1 of this topic http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/4787-mia-blog-entry-by-dr-shipko-on-wd/?p=60372

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Terms of Use Privacy Policy