Alpha-Stim, Fisher Wallace Sota Biotuner, PoNS, & similar "brain stimulation" devices

[peggy]

I read Norman Doidges second book and was fascinated by the chapter on PoNS - so much so that i sat and looked at my TENS machine and wondered how I could possibly convert to a PoNs device!!!!

 

I think it could be of  benefit to some people in withdrawal.. I did have a Sota Biotuner device but couldn't find it anywhere, I ended up buying the Alpha Stim and have been using it intermittently, i keep forgetting to use it daily, but my sleep has really improved.  It doesn't tingle like the Sota device, but it can make you dizzy if turned up too high, so i sort of feel like it actually does more.

[bluebalu86]

Still unable to purchase the CES, my dad hasn't put money in the credit card. I'm still waiting. While I wait, I decided to make an appointment to try Scenar therapy. My appointment is on June 29. I'm not expecting any miracles but feel like I have to try something to help my body heal. Scenar therapy is not expensive, so I decided to give it a try.

 

1. SCENAR (Self Controlled Energo Neuro Adaptive Regulator) is a hand held medical device that delivers non invasive, non toxic, computer modulated, therapeutic electro stimulation onto and through the skin. It is a biofeedback device involving no drugs and no surgery that aids the body in the self healing process.

[bluebalu86]

Is the PONS device available for purchase? I couldn't find any site that sells it. Is it still being researched? 

[Cdav]

A member of SA recommended CES therapy. 

 

I ordered the SOTA biotuner, they didn't ship to Mexico, but I live 3 hours away from Texas, my boyfriend's parents have a P.O. box address there, so it already arrived a week ago, someone picked it up for me and I will receive it tomorrow. 

 

I think I'm getting my hopes very high and shouldn't. I mostly want my severe depression and akathisia to diminish, which are my worst symptoms. I would settle for a little relief. 

 

OffEffexor, I've also been crying daily for I don't know how many months. I just want that to stop. My face looks so tired and puffy all the time.  I'm glad you've noticed improvements. 

[bluebalu86]

Cdav, let us know how the Biotuner works for you. If you ask me, don't get your hopes up too high.  It might work or it might not. But we will heal regardless of that. It could be an extra help, but it's not necessary for recovery.

[btdt]

Is the PONS device available for purchase? I couldn't find any site that sells it. Is it still being researched? 

 

I don't think it is I tried to find a place to buy one too.. it would be a lot I think I could not afford it anyway but I still wanted to know the best I could find is it was under clinical trial here in Canada but you never know what is going on in other places in the world. 

 

[Cdav]

I know bluebalu86. My hopes are high because I'm desperate, and I'll probably get disappointed and more depressed if it doesn't work because I've already tried so many things: acupuncture, Craneo-sacral therapy, homeopathy, TMS, exercise, yoga, nutrition changes, different supplements, more medicaiton (which have made things worse) etc… and I'm still suffering. But I guess we have to keep trying and doing whatever we can besides being patient and accepting what we're going through. 

 

I'll let you know how it goes. 

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

All the PoNS devices I found are still in development. Here's one that was at a trade show in Feb this year.

 

Wiki for Paul Bach-y-Rita, who's the thought behind the device (using the nerves in the tongue to stimulate the PoNS to try to heal traumatic brain injury).

 

University of Nebraska Medical Center’s (UNMC) Munroe-Meyer Institute was testing one in 2011-12. Don't think they still are.

 

U.S. Army, Helius Medical Technologies Modify CRADA To Speed PONS™ Device Development

 

And etcetera.....

 

WD syndrome is primarily an autonomic nervous system problem. Not sure how these types of devices, the PoNS specifically, can help with it.

 

Time, good nutrition, sleep, rest, gentle exercise and distraction work wonders as does watching lots of kitten and puppy videos on YT. Add in huge helping of patience for healing from wd syndrome takes a loooooong time. Allowing the body the space to do its own healing work with as little interference as possible is key.

 

But of course, ymmv.

[Cdav]

Been trying the Sota Biotuner for 3 days. I haven't felt any relief. I'm a little confused because two days before starting to use the device I had already started having a bad wave after using Benadryl for 4 days. At first the Benadryl was giving me such needed relief from akathisia and I was actually in a good mood, so I kept using it in very low doses, but then it started to cause mental confusion, more muscle twitching, extreme fatigue and weakness, headaches and deeper depression and irritability which haven't gone away. I also tried to stop the 1 mg of citalopram that I'm still taking to avoid brain zaps. 

 

So now I don't reallly know what's causing all this trouble, if the Benadryl or stopping the citalopram (I reinstated today). I was hoping the Sota Biotuner would help me with this, but it hasn't yet. I am in a really bad wave right now, and really desperate because I had seen improvements in my mood last month even with the akathisia. I don't think the CES device is making any harm but I can't really say that it's helping. I'm tempted to stop using it until I feel a bit more stable, I've been having uncontrollable rage, I hadn't had this for 3 months. I know this could have been the Benadryl (because I had already had that experience before with some antihistamines) and or/the citalopram changes. 

 

Sorry I can't give you good feedback about the Sota biotuner right now, I am really confused as to why this wave is so bad right now. Bee crying a lot and having self-harm thoughts and also the akathisia is back after stopping Benadryl. Still haven't decided if I should stick to the device it for more days, I'm a little scared of making things worse than they are right now.  

[OffEFFexor]

Cdav, I'm sorry you are suffering so much.  I hope you find relief soon, maybe with more time using the Sota device, or maybe with just more time.

 

I've now been using the Fisher Wallace CES for 25 days.  I gradually increased from setting 1 to setting 2, for 20 minutes three times a day.  Occasionally I skip a treatment, if I'm busy or I forget, and I haven't noticed any ill effect.  A couple of times I fell asleep before the bedtime treatment.

 

The insomnia I suffered for two months is nearly gone, I sleep six hours or more most nights probably 6 out of 7.  I haven't cried in two weeks, most days I don't feel depressed at all, only mildly on other days.  Tinnitus and headache, which were prominent symptoms through most of my WD but had nearly gone away three months ago have come back since I started using CES, but very mild and tolerable.  Just enough to remind me I'm not cured.

 

But I am so much improved, and I am much more functional and happy than just three weeks ago.  I am amazed and grateful this bizarre device that shoots weak electric current pulses through my brain has actually worked to restore sleep and mood.  I still have down days, but I've had dramatic relief of my WD symptoms, and most of the time most days I feel like I have returned to good health and function.  Finally, after nine months of hell.

 

I am not recommending this for anyone, (I could get into trouble were I to do that, so I need to make this disclaimer,) just relaying my experience, for information purposes. 

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

I still have an interest in this topic as is apparent from my earlier posts. I received my tDCS unit a couple of months ago but became so busy with the flower shop activities that I never wanted to sit still long enough to try it out. I wanted to do an honest review since it appears that no one here has used that kind of device. The only wd symptom I have currently is waking too early but I can almost write that off to going to bed too early. And, unfortunately, the new and improved 'me' I was hoping for as a result of getting off meds and suffering the worst experience of my life to date (wd) has not revealed herself and probably never will. (I have noted the comments made about me here on this site.) I seem to have the same defects of character I always did although I am somewhat better able to live with them. Others being able to live with them, not so much. I am too direct for most people's tastes and I have a low tolerance for a lot of stuff.

 

All that cr@p aside, I just haven't felt the need for trying out my CES device and even tried giving it away to several people without success (I decided to keep it.) I have read OE's comments here and on his thread and got the bright idea of looking up some info on how tDCS and tACS compare. (The type of current produced by the Fisher-Wallace is alternating current.) On the site where I purchased my device is an article in the FAQs with just such a comparison and a chart from a recently written book (2014) comparing CES devices. At that page is a link to an Elsevier site where individual PDF's of sections of the book may be purchased, the book retails for around a C note, too steep for my tastes but I would happily download a copy could I get it from World Cat.

 

I note that according to the chart, the FW has has no appreciable effect on neurotransmitters but the tDCS does, according to studies the author reviewed. This belies the fact that users on this site are reporting good things and attribute them to use of the devices. So I think what is lacking is more recent studies on the matter which may come about from the interest this book might generate. And I note that it is not a review of the assist these devices might have in reducing the severity of some wd symptoms. These devices are being promoted for other uses such as 'cognitive enhancement'. Nothing cures wd syndrome, the ANS has to heal by itself. We don't know how to heal it though some things seem to help for some people. Weak electrical current transmitted to the brain through the use of external electrodes (as opposed to the invasive procedure of Deep Brain Stimulation) seems to kinda sorta do something that some people report as positive. What it really does and why doesn't seem very well explained yet.

 

I just don't have a compelling desire to try mine out at the moment. And I hope one doesn't suddenly pop up.

[OffEFFexor]

Hey cw, it sounds like you are doing pretty good, the last I remember reading on your thread was you were working in the flower shop.  I don't know about a new and better self emerging for me, free of my old character defects, but I have a sense that this experience has caused changes in my psychology and personality that I am only beginning to recognize.  This WD sucked so much, was so painful and damaging, I can't imagine emerging unchanged.  OTOH, I felt some big changes just a few weeks off of the medication (after 19 years of SSRI-SSNI and another decade of tricyclics), before the WD kicked in.  Or maybe it's the electrical zaps three times a day.

 

I did no evaluation or comparison prior to choosing the alternating current CES device from fisher wallace.  I read a little bit about the different devices, frequencies, bandwidths, and other specs, but I didn't (couldn't) process the info.  I just went with this one because my doc had good experiences with other patients, and the fisher wallace one has some local docs on their advisory board and making testimonials whom have good reputations in the nyc alternative psychiatric community (including docs who know that WD and prolonged WD is a real thing.)

 

I am curious how and why this thing worked.  If indeed it did work on me - I recognize it could be a placebo effect, it could be purely coincidental with a window I was due to experience anyway, or that my worst symptoms could return tomorrow despite CES treatment. 

 

But if as time goes forward the conclusion that CES has helped me becomes more solid and reasonable, I'll also be very interested in the state of science knowledge behind this device and other forms of brain stimulation by electricity or magnetic fields.

 

I did read this, linked by someone else, sorry I don't remember who, a short book/long paper by Ray B. Smith PhD, "Cranial Electrotherapy Stimulation: It's First Fifty Years Plus 3".  A free link to a pdf file is here: 

 

https://www.grc.com/dev/ces/Cranial%20Electrotherapy%20Stimulation_%20Its%20First%20Fifty%20Years,%20Plus%20Three.pdf

 

I read it quickly and did not get much from it, but a more careful reading may be of use. 

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

I know, OE. That is what is so interesting about this subject as it pertains to people in wd. (and oh wow, did not know Steve Gibson (grc.com) was interested in this subject, been a fan of his from way back when I first got on the net. I owe my ability to work on computers to his newsgroups. I participated there for years.

 

Your medical background is surely better than mine (BSN) but I am widely read in topics that interest me. I cannot quite fathom how CES can influence the ANS as regards to wd symptoms and I don't think anyone else does either so anecdotal reports have to suffice here.

 

(Hmm, could I feel even 'better' if I wired myself up to my as yet unused device?)

[bluebalu86]

CW, which device do you have?

 

OE, great results, I'm happy for you  

 

I still haven't purchased mine.

[OffEFFexor]

I did not know a thing about Steve Gibson.  I have a dying hard drive, so it is a good time to learn about him and his products.

 

Just now I spoke with a friend who is also suffering with AD WD.  She tried the fisher wallace CES and had a bad result.  Immediately after one use, she felt highly activated, like her 'brain was overactive and like her eyes were locked open'. 

 

Works for one person, doesn't work for another, makes her feel worse.  Another crap shoot.  At least fisher has a good return policy and a reputation for honoring it.

 

Blu, thanks, I hope you get to try it soon, and that it works for you.

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

 

I have a dying hard drive, so it is a good time to learn about him and his products.

 

I swear by Spinrite. Brought a few back from the dead to scrape the files off before they bit the dust for good (some were my own, I fiddled with stuff and broke things while I was learning....)

 

That is what is so difficult about this subject: the question of 'why'? Why did it (or did not) help and why? WHAT did it do? And you have to look at the person too: were they accurately reporting just the results from using the device or were there other factors?

 

Just starting to read the monograph now. One of the people who wrote a blurb at the beginning uses it in their 'Healing Recovery Center' and said this (to which I call bs):

 

 

R. Ray Smith has compiled a valuable collection of studies demonstrating the intrinsic worth of Cranial Electrotherapy Stimulation in rebalancing those who suffer from addiction and mental illness. Health Recovery Center does extensive labs to uncover clients’ biological reasons for anxiety, depression, and other unstable states.Rebalancing to normal wellbeing (as defined by the client) occurs almost unanimously when combining daily CES use with the replacement of key missing orthomolecular substances. Together they seem to provide an optimum healing environment for healing minds.

 

Heals alcoholism, addiction, mental illness, yada yada. Um, maybe so, maybe not...... certainly cheaper than substance abuse though.

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

Whoa! Steve has done some reading on the subject: check the list of files on /dev/ces (of which the above file is only one of many). He is anything if not thorough when he gets into something.

 

Another late night reading coming up.....

[bluebalu86]

cymbaltawithdrawal, which CES device do you have?

[LoveandLight]

I'm interested, offeffexor, if you could share what changes you noticed after coming off before WD hit?

[Hangingon]

Would it be dangerous to use these devices on a brain that is working so hard to heal?

My psychiatrist recommended them as well.

[OffEFFexor]

Hi Love and Light:

 

On my thread I described what I'm talking about:

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/7538-offeffexor-hello-everybody/?p=109110

 

and I'm glad to answer again.  The last few years on Effexor I had changed in subtle ways, that either I didn't notice or I blamed on getting older.  A lack of interest in some activities, feeling that they were not worth the trouble.  Also a flattening out of my positive emotions, not feeling the highs of life quite as much.

 

Within just a couple of weeks after quitting effexor, I noticed a renewed interest in some specific things I had set aside.  I also started feeling positive things with more intensity.  This happened even in the midst of acute withdrawal, which lasted about 3-4 weeks for me, with a rapid decline in the symptoms after peaking about five days after CT.

 

During the five months between the end of acute withdrawal, and the start of the delayed prolonged withdrawal, I had more energy, more interest in socializing and recreational activities, I planned and took a trip that I would not have considered bothering with just a few weeks earlier, I made a decision about quitting a dead-end job which I had been putting off, and I felt a fuller range of emotions. 

 

I haven't gotten back to that state of mind yet, but I moved several big steps in that direction over the last three weeks.

[bluebalu86]

I just ordered the Fisher Wallace Stimulator. Wondering how long it will take to arrive to Bulgaria and also if I will have to pay an additional fee for import at the customs? It's being shipped with FedEx International Ground service, which cost me an additional $100. 

[bluebalu86]

I received the Fisher Wallace Stimulator today. Went through a nightmare at the cutsoms and paid an insane amount of money to be able to import it. 

I'm using it right now at level 2 for 20 minutes. I don't feel anything - I see tiny flashing lights when I close my eyes. I understand it takes a month to see the effect. Will update. 

[bluebalu86]

Day 2 of using the Fisher Wallace - no changes. 

[neilstevenlubin]

Firstly, the Alpha-stim AID unit is not a scam. It has been FDA cleared and I've seen the approval. I've done a lot of research into the Alpha-stim units, of which I am not affiliated with or get money from the company. I'm just a patient with treatment-resistant depression and anxiety who's taken all of the U.S. antidepressants and ect treatments with not great relief. To say it's a scam without any facts is very wrong and can possibly steer someone away from a device/treatment that could really help them.

 

I've seen studies and watched and read testimonials as well as news stories where most where positive about the help offered by the Alpha-Stim units. I am in the process of getting the money together so I can buy a unit. And by the way, in the U.S. it is required that a licensed health care professional either write a prescription or fill out medically necessary paperwork in order to get one. As per the FDA!

 

Thanks

 

Neil

[peggy]

Firstly, the Alpha-stim AID unit is not a scam. It has been FDA cleared and I've seen the approval. I've done a lot of research into the Alpha-stim units, of which I am not affiliated with or get money from the company. I'm just a patient with treatment-resistant depression and anxiety who's taken all of the U.S. antidepressants and ect treatments with not great relief. To say it's a scam without any facts is very wrong and can possibly steer someone away from a device/treatment that could really help them.

 

I've seen studies and watched and read testimonials as well as news stories where most where positive about the help offered by the Alpha-Stim units. I am in the process of getting the money together so I can buy a unit. And by the way, in the U.S. it is required that a licensed health care professional either write a prescription or fill out medically necessary paperwork in order to get one. As per the FDA!

 

Thanks

 

Neil

 

 

I must have missed something in this thread, but who said the alpha stim was a scam?

[neilstevenlubin]

Hi peggy. I wrote this because at the start of this thread, this was written. the title is what started me writing: "

Alpha-Stim, Fisher Wallace Sota Biotuner, PoNS, and similar devices". I'll be happy to follow up if you choose. Take care. Neil

 

 

 

meistersinger

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 01:48 AM

This one is an obvious scam. It looks like a device for treating TENS. Supposedly, the FDA cleared it for treatment of anxiety and depression. 

[bluebalu86]

Neil,

 

do you think the Alpha-Stim is the best among the CES devices? I started regretting buying the Fisher Wallace, and not the Alpha-Stim, because it's so hard and uncomfortable to use - I have to get my hair wet 2 times a day and there's water dripping everywhere. Also I have to buy replacement sponges which are not that expensive, but I have to pay 100 dollars again of shipping and probably go to the customs to import the stupid sponges again (because I'm in Bulgaria and when you buy something from outside the European Union you have to pay taxes and fees and go to the customs which is a nightmare in my condition). 

 

The Fisher Wallace is also FDA cleared. 

[neilstevenlubin]

Hi bluebalu86. After all of the searching on the internet and emailing with the Sales Manager about the Alpha-Stim AID, I really do think it's the best and most researched of the FDA Cleared products.I can understand when you say that the Fisher Wallace unit can be difficult to use, especially with wet hair. That's terrible how much you have to pay just for shipping, etc. If everything goes well this week, I'm hoping to buy an Alpha-Stim AID unit. I'm looking for to hopefully feeling better since I was 7 years old and depressed and 30 years of meds.

 

Take care,

 

Neil

[OffEFFexor]

Update - Been using the FW device for a little over a month.  After five days I began feeling wonderful relief from insomnia and depression.  I had three weeks of feeling great, minimal symptoms.  But the last week my older symptoms, (headache, tinnitus, brain fog and fatigue) returned, but much milder than the previous several months of antidepressant withdrawal.  Longer description in my personal thread: 

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/7538-offeffexor-hello-everybody/?p=168391

 

Bottom line after a month:  excellent relief of some symptoms (insomnia and depression/crying); significant relief of other symptoms, but still feeling a one-week long (and counting) wave of symptoms after a three week window of minimal symptoms.  Not cured, stilll sick but much improved.

[OffEFFexor]

I was feeling crappy, the return of some symptoms, so I took a two-day break from using the CES.  And I felt better.  I went back to using it, and some symptoms came back.  It's weird, I think it has helped, but maybe using it too much is hurting.  Confusing.

 

I posted in more detail on my thread, here:

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/7538-offeffexor-hello-everybody/?p=169222

 

and I will put the details of my continuing adventures with the Fisher Wallace CES over there.

[OffEFFexor]

posted another installment of my CES story here:  http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/7538-offeffexor-hello-everybody/?p=171177

[neilstevenlubin]

I am taking Abilify 10mg and boy has it made me sick because of some nasty side effects and all after only having been on it for 5 days!. Called my PDoc and went down to 5mg again. Anyway, I've posted previously about wanting to get a prescription for a CES unit, the Alpha-Stim AID. I did it! I finally found someone to write a script for me to purchase it and that's what I did. It'll be delivered here tomorrow. I'm both hopeful that it'll help me and worried that it won't. But the hopeful side is winning right now. I'll let you know how it works out. You all seem so caring and kind that I don't have a problem sharing with you. Thanks for that. Bye for now.

[neilstevenlubin]

Hi everyone. I have some good news. I received my Alpha-Stim AID today. I am both hopeful and afraid it won't work, but the hopeful side is out front right now. Anyway, I followed all of the directions and had my first 20-minute treatment. Please understand that I'm not deluding myself into thinking that this will help, I'm just hoping. The only noticeable effect that it had was that I am a bit tired, which hopefully will help my insomnia. I know that for this to have a chance to work, it'll take from weeks to months as the manufacturer says, especially since I've been taking meds for 30 years.

 

Well, take care and wish me luck. I'll try and update on events everyday. Feel free to ask any questions of me. Bye for now.

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

Please note that this thread is a discussion of ALL the devices, not just one. OffEff has been posting a short note pointing to his results IN HIS OWN THREAD about every 10 days or so. I, for one, do not feel that this thread's purpose is to host a daily recap of ONE user of ONE device.

 

Feel free to do as you wish.

 

I copy this from where I posted it in your thread as something for people to think about when reading about people's experiences:

 

 

The problem I have with the discussion of people here using these devices is that it is not clear WHAT exactly is happening: is the device causing some sort of beneficial change or not in a person that is under the influence of such high doses of psychoactive drugs and especially those with dangerous interactions?

 

And if the person is drug free, but still undergoing the effects of withdrawal. what is really happening: is it a bad effect from the device or the usual course of the 'windows and waves' pattern of recovery (which lasts an excruciatingly long time)? Self reported, unverifiable (and unduplicatable) results muddy the waters. OffEff alludes to such in his reporting (and he's a doc so he knows a bit of the line you should toe when doing 'experiments'. Results should be replicatable by anyone). I would take any reports (both good OR bad) with a grain of salt when coming from this select population of users here on SA. Waaaaay too many variables.

[brassmonkey]

Hi Neil--  the whole purpose of the personal/introduction threads is to keep a comprehensive journal of the different things one is experiencing and trying, so all of ones information is in one place, not scatted all over the site.  That way it is easer for each person to keep track of what they doing and how it effects them.  It also make it easier for us to see what is going on with each person so we can make suggestions as their recovery progresses.  The topic threads are for general discussion of a specific topic, resources, techniques and the like.  We need to keep it this way so everyone has good access, and not have to hunt everywhere for the information they are looking for.