rapunzel2: a mess with drugs

[rapunzel2]

thanks, read the links. got some small ideas how to present information.

we are not only talking about my prescription, thankfully he does what I want he totally allows me to set my own regime how I'm withdrawing. 

we are discussing psychiatry overall. last time he said that whitaker is great manipulator and patients believe him because they are easily manipulated. he has also told that whitaker is a "religion guy". etc. 

 

I guess I want him to acknowledge that there are some dangers about the drugs so that he would be more careful with next patients. also, he is the head of psychiatric association in my country, so it would be helpful if I could bend him at least a little bit to accept that there are some dangers and that withdrawal does exist. 

[rapunzel2]

update: I'm depressed. I can't believe I'm depressed after quite long time of not experiencing it. I've been superstressed and overstimulated, dysphoric and irritable, etc, but not depressed. it sucks. I guess my cuts in march and may (together they were 30%) were too much and I experience withdrawal with a lag time (after 3-5 months). my previous problems with withdrawal (before I learned to taper) were with the same lag time. 

 

I hate it and it means I have to wait to recover and take even longer to withdraw. but I guess nothing can be done about that. 

 

what do you think - if I had done those cuts with smaller steps but in same timeframe (i.e. 10% march, 10% april, 10% may, adding up the same amount of cut. right now I did 15% march, 15% may), would that worked out better? important question for me. 

[ChessieCat]

Hi rapunzel

 

Worrying about what might or might not have been is not going to help you in any way, shape or form.  It's not like the Sliding Doors movie where we got the chance to see 2 different outcomes.

 

What you need to do now is accept what is.  What has been done cannot be undone.  Learn to accept where you are at now and don't add stress to your CNS (just read back over that and it rhymes!) by worrying about the past.  I believe that when we worry and stress over things that the brain has to divert its attention to deal with that which means it can't do what it needs to do to adapt.

 

It's a normal thing to feel that we need to be doing something but when it comes to AD WD we just need to stay as calm as possible and allow time for the brain to do its thing.

 

And your question: " would that worked out better?"  Nobody knows, it is a question that cannot can be answered.

[rapunzel2]

thanks Chessie!

 

yes, that is wise. I'm not totally ruminating. why I'm asking is because I've got a tendency to prefer larger cuts and then hold a little longer. maybe if I would be convinced that smaller cuts more often would be better for my nervous system, I would adapt to that but I understand that nobody can answer such questions and it's down to trial and error. 

 

I maybe more cautious in the future though. when I stabilize, I plan to cut quetiapine. and although it gives me less withdrawal symptoms, I might still go to making the liquid and do the proper 10% cuts but more often. I'm down to half a tablet of 25mg, and I think I will get rid of that during this year. 

[rapunzel2]

my withdrawal process goes like this:

I cut the dose. after that come several different phases. there is no clear pattern about them, they may come in different order, sometimes some phases are missing, sometimes they are there. I go through extreme tiredness, numbness, apathy, cognitive difficulties.. then there may come the phase when I fall into depression - everything is so hard and life seems so ugly and awful.. there may be a phase when everything makes me cry. 

 

and then. when I have gone through all of that, all the phases, the pain and discomfort and depression and tiredness and everything else. Then I get a little piece of my soul back! this tiny new piece of my own soul is so much worth all this suffering, if this is the prize. 

 

I met my old friend yesterday. We talked, and laughed. I feel people! I went to bed and thought about many of my friends, it made my heart very warm thinking about all those people I love in my life. I FEEL PEOPLE AGAIN. it's priceless.

 

I know it doesn't last and I have long times where I'm disconnected again due to withdrawal, but I live for the hope that I get my whole soul back. 

[AliG]

Rapunzel. While I agree with CC. about accepting what is and the past , I also think we can learn from it . I see that you have a tendency to cut too hard and then the symptoms seem to catch up with you as they have a habit of doing.

 

Perhaps if you were to follow the recommended 10 % tapering method with some nice holds in between you might find that you have a smoother ride and a higher quality of life with less ups & downs and therefore less angst in the long run. 

 

It might enable you to taper more slowly and experience less symptoms overall. From your signature I see that you have never tried that. Your cuts have always been much more.

 

I would give it a go , as I can't see that you have much to lose from at least trying what we recommend. I understand that you're in a hurry but sometimes/ often it turns out to be that it can backfire and take much longer in the long run. You said that yourself.  By doing it carefully you may save yourself a lot of time as you won't have to up dose if your symptoms get to be too much for you.

 

It's great that you're feeling a little better and if I were you I would try and keep that feeling going by being super careful from hereon in.

Ali

[rapunzel2]

AliG, I updated my signature to be more clear. now there are all the cuts I've made. 

 

I agree, that the last two fluoxetine cuts were too big. I had to do much longer hold and I ended up being in depression for some time. 

 

But I don't agree that I haven't been careful at all - I have withdrawn over 3,5 years and I've managed to be functional all the time. 

 

Also, my goal is not only to be symptom free on withdrawal but I'm also in a time constraint because I'm quite old and I want to get pregnant. I don't have years anymore. If I would, I could be much slower. I have to find some balance between manageable symptoms and shortest time possible. 

[rapunzel2]

I also wanted to add that the pattern that I described has been true also with smaller than 10% cuts. for me, symptom free withdrawal is not possible. 

[rapunzel2]

I've done a long hold, since May (3,5 months). I was really down in august, fell into depression, haven't had it for a long time. I guess it was a late onset withdrawal after too big cuts in March and May. but it seems to have resolved, so I'm thinking about moving on. at the same time it makes me really scared. why is it that when I start feeling better, I have to make myself ill again! I'm sure many of you can relate to that. 

 

I have noticed lately that I'm getting more alive and I'm getting my emotions back. I have listened to music and felt it much more. I've felt people. I have much more thoughts and feelings and richer inner life. some years ago I didn't have any thoughts or feelings at all. I lost interest in all psychology and self help materials, because they all deal with handling emotions, but I didn't have any. But originally I have been a sensitive person and I've really really missed my inner life so it's really encouraging that I seem to be getting it back a little. I still long for feeling more and getting creative, but I think I have to wait patiently and those will come, too. 

 

I'm planning to go ahead with quetiapine now. no more messing around with too big cuts, I'll do it in 10% steps, although I might do them more often, because I seem to tolerate quetiapine withdrawal much better than fluoxetine. But I'm puzzled what to do in the end? if continuing 10% steps, this will continue indefinitely???

[ChessieCat]

There is a discussion here:  when-to-end-the-taper-and-jump-to-zero

[rapunzel2]

I have done quetiapine 10% cut 3 weeks in a row and everything is going uneventfully. no major changes. maybe a little bit more emotional, but could be due to stress.I also have more ideas and thoughts in my head, and this is a welcome change, gives me back my personality. sleep is ok, maybe sometimes comes a little bit later, but is ok.

I'm thrilled! I really hope I can completely stop quetiapine during this year!

[bubble]

Hello Rapunzel!

 

It's really nice to read about your progress. You came to really low doses of both drugs over these 3 and a half years. I hope there are no lag times for you or any other unpleasant tricks.

 

I would be interested in your overall drug history. Were you on other drugs before 2012 and for how long? Excuse me my curiosity. I just have this theory that our drug history influences the rate at which we can taper and intensity of WD symptoms so would like to know a bit about yours if you don't mind

[rapunzel2]

Of course I don't mind! And thank you for noticing my progress - I'm also really really happy that I've reached such low doses already! I'm really excited!

 

Before I write about my history I'd like to point out that my mother committed suicide and I've always felt really strong that drugs were a culprit. so it may be that I have some genetic predisposition to be sensitive about drugs.

 

I myself feel that I have been sensitive about the drugs from the beginning, and especially sensitive about withdrawal, but I didn't understand it until 2012. by that time I had made many unsuccessful attempts to reduce meds and each one ended with worse and worse catastrophe. I feel that every such attempt messed with my brain and made me more sensitive for withdrawal and also reduced any benefits that drugs would have, and increased side effects. 

 

I first took AD-s after my mother's death in 2002. as I was paranoid about them, I only took half tablet of citalopram, for half a year. ended it slowly and uneventfully. 

 

my biggest "mental health problems" started in summer 2006, when several things coincided - relationship problems, burnout, and ending baby pills. I started AD-s (citalopram), and things went downhill during couple of coming months. I never realised that I started seriously going downhill AFTER starting AD-s, I only put 2+2 together in 2012 when I read Whitaker's book. 

 

anyway, I reached really awful state of mind, but somehow survived and after several months cold turkeyd drugs. after that I lived 2 years without them but wasn't well, it's like I lost something about me. and slowly went downhill to depression until I started drugs again in 2008.

 

After a couple of trials with AD-s that had bad side effects I ended up on prozac and it worked wonders, really changed my feelings, it was like loads had fallen off my shoulders and suddenly I remembered all the good things and memories that I had had in life. My interpretation now - from 2006-2008 I had been in withdrawal mess, and maybe starting the drug in 2008 helped in some way with that. 

 

After that come the attempts to stop. in 2009 - stopped during couple of weeks, really irritable and angry, fell into deep hole after couple of months. started zoloft, regained some mental health. 

 

in 2011 - halved my dosage of zoloft. ended up in half a year hell, attempted reinstatement, drug change, etc, it didn't help for a long time. until the start of 2012 when I suddenly felt good! In fact so good that I decided I don't need meds anymore (hadn't understood how all my previous catastrofies had to do with withdrawal). I ended drugs really quickly, during several weeks. At first I felt good, couple of months were REALLY good. I felt life again, it was amazing. then the waves started - with anxiety, depression and terror. and then suddenly, about 4 months after stopping, I lost everything inside me. fell into unimaginable deep hole, suffered horrendously. drugs didn't help. 

 

after a long time, maybe 6 months later, I was on prozac and quetiapine, somewhat put down but still really suffering mentally, and slept 15-16 hours a day. waited about 7-8 months for something to improve, but nothing did. horribly depressed, tired, and sleeping all the time.

 

then after that I started GFCF diet, hardy nutritionals vitamins and slow tapering. that was in 2013 summer and things have slowly but surely improved after that. at the moment I have been depression free for about 1,5 years, I've regained much functionality and I'm working in quite stressful job with 75% workload (+ a little side project as well). I'm in a loving relationship and overall I like my life a lot. I'm still tired and withdrawal symptoms are difficult, but they are basically stress, irritation, tiredness, cognitive problems and not feeling (don't remember the word for it now). but basically no depression (although had one setback in this area in this august). I can't do sports at all and I miss that. overall I miss my energy and more feelings/imagination/creativity, but I'm sure I will get them back someday when I'm drug free and most of withdrawal is over. 

 

for me the biggest problem why I didn't understand withdrawal was that my crashes were always delayed 3-5 months. 

 

I also mention that I'm REALLY sensitive about fluoxetine withdrawal but not so sensitive about quetiapine withdrawal (although I've taken quetiapine also for a long time). the latter seems to influence me also because it boosts fluoxetine effect and when I reduce quetiapine, in a sense it also reduces fluoxetine. 

 

hope this gave you some information about my background that you were interested in

[rapunzel2]

I realised my signature is lacking info about the past so I added it there, too. 

[scallywag]

Have you considered holding at a dose for a while?  Doing so would give you an opportunity to evaluate whether you can continue at this rate or whether you should consider proceeding more slowly.  It almost seems that reducing a neuroleptic ("anti-psychotic") medication such as quetiapine creates a symptom of an impulse to reduce it quickly.

 

10% per week is fast.  You may feel okay now but there's a good probability that this fast taper will catch up with you and be unpleasant. It's in your power NOW  to reduce the risk of a very difficult experience later.

[bubble]

Thanks a lot for sharing your history Rapunzel. I later on realised it's in your initial thread but it will be great to have its details in your signature.

 

I hope going over it again now gave you an opportunity to take stock of your achievements.

 

I want to echo what Scally said that now might be a good time to consolidate them. Just to make sure there are no any nast lag times.

 

Keep us posted

[rapunzel2]

thank you for your concern. 

I'm still going on with 10% cut tomorrow, from 9,25 to 8,25mg. As I have monitored my body, reactions and withdrawal for 3,5 years, I feel that I'm not stepping over the edge at the moment. quetiapine withdrawal has been much easier for me than fluoxetine. 

I'm watching my reactions closely and if anything occurs that seems too much, I will hold more. 

 

at the moment I'm doing quite fine. I have more thoughts and creative energy, which is much welcomed change! at the same time, it's not a radical change, just something that I'm noticing slightly. It seems that quetiapine really dumbs one down and takes away feelings and thoughts. 

the other thing I'm noticing, is slight decline in memory. at the same time I'm mentally sharper, but can't remember some events etc. no big effect on sleep, which is very good, since sleep is so essential. 

[erer]

What I've learnt from my personal experience of withdrawing an antipsychotic is that the effects of the wd really come with a lag. 10-16 days from the cut is not exceptional. So I too urge you to be very cautious, for there is a chance your cuts will pile on. 

 

That said, I do know that you are good at listening your body and probably know its boundaries well. Just that it is an antipsychotic now, not the AD you are used to tapering - be careful, ok?

[rapunzel2]

delay time is useful info! I'm aquainted fairly well with fluoxetine delay time, but have no information on seroquel and delay times. 

I'll make a cut today and then I'll maybe hold 2 weeks (or more if needed). I've had quite stressful time at work as well. 

[Altostrata]

rapunzel, please note that when you reduce by a set amount, such as 1mg, every time, the amount of reduction keeps getting larger proportionately.

 

When you're taking 10mg, a decrease of 1mg is a 10% reduction. When you're down to 8.25mg, a decrease of 1mg is a 12% reduction. When you get to 5mg, it's a 20% reduction.

 

Your nervous system may not be noticing the decreases now, but as your base dosage gets lower, it may notice a larger proportionate decrease in the drug. You may wish to switch to decreases of 0.5mg to maintain a very gradual rate of decrease until you get to 4.5mg, when you might decrease by 0.25mg each time.

[rapunzel2]

regarding seroquel withdrawal symptoms - do people experience NAUSEA? I have got waves of nausea and if I hadn't googled seoroquel withdrawal symptoms, I wouldn't have connected it with withdrawal - with AD-s I haven't had so physical symptoms. I'm now thinking it is seroquel withdrawal symptom and wondering, do other people experience this as well?

[rapunzel2]

thanks for specific quidelines. yes, I've planned to go to 0,8mg decreases and then 0,5mg decreases and then smaller. my cuts would vary around 9-12% decreases. 

 

today in my sleep I experienced a bout of nausea. I remember that I have felt this before and wondered what is it since I didn't get ill with a flu. but a couple of days earlier I googled seroquel withdrawal symptoms and nausea and vomiting were on the list. so I guess it's a withdrawal symptom? really weird, haven't experienced such symptoms before. 

 

I'm noticing also other symptoms like irritability and bad memory. and maybe tiredness. fortunately, no sleep problems. at the moment I'm wondering if I have some visual disturbances or is this that I just woke up and my eyes are not clear yet. 

 

due to experiencing symptoms, I will hold one more week at the moment. 

[ChessieCat]

I've moved your post from Tips for Tapering Seroquel because it keeps your history together.

 

"regarding seroquel withdrawal symptoms - do people experience NAUSEA?"

 

I'm tapering Pristiq and have experienced nausea on and off since tapering.  A few days after dropping my dose by 50% I had a mildl upset tummy for about 3 days which I later put down to withdrawal.  Apparently there is a high percentage (95%?) of serotonin in the gut so it makes sense that when we are tapering we may get nausea or an upset stomach.  Nausea is #35 on this list Dr Joseph Glenmullen's WD Symptoms Checklist

 

Here is the link to SA discussion:  digestive-problems-nausea-diarrhea-bloating-gerd

[erer]

 

 

"regarding seroquel withdrawal symptoms - do people experience NAUSEA?"

 

I don't know about seroquel, but olansapine wd has caused me severe nausea. Up to the point where I was unable to eat anything at all for the first half of the day. I'm guessing these two drugs can be similar.

[rapunzel2]

thank you!

I was just puzzled and suprised, because it's a totally new symptom for me!

fortunately it has only occured once at the moment. but I remember two very similar bouts of nause from the past - didn't connect them with seroquel withdrawal then.

 

I'm not sure about seroquel and olanzapine similarity. probably they are similar in some sense, but as I know, seroquel in lower doses doesn't have antipsychotic properties, but is just sedative. I'm not very knowledgeable though about this. I'm just happy to get off of this nasty stuff. 

 

I wonder if anybody experiences same kind of social rythm that I have. I work 4 days a week. I can push myself through that, but 5th day is very hard. As the pressure comes off, I sleep long and then I'm feeling DEAD TIRED for that day. those are the most difficult days for me, sometimes I can barely crawl to kitchen and back. but if I let myself just lie and rest, then I recover, and the next day is much better. until the start of the week, when everything starts the same again, going on with adrenaline and stress. 

 

I wish I could just quit the job and have much easier lifestyle for my body and brain, sigh...

[bubble]

I know what you mean. I have to appear at work every day and every day I'm so tired that I barely make it home and just colapse in front of the TV.

 

I very often wish I could quit my job also and also think things would be a lot easier for me. But that's not an option because I can't afford it. Also as difficult as it is working provides a very welcome distraction from symptoms and gives structure to our days, among other things.

 

Reducing the workload, working shorter hours, fewer days or working from home at least some days might be a lot better option than quitting altogether.

[rapunzel2]

I'm in the same group

 

I try to console myself with thinking that I feel like crap anyway, and the days are long and only time helps - so I can spend this time feeling like crap at work and at least get some money for it. as opposed to feeling crap at home and getting no money at all. 

 

I'm looking for opportunities for less workload, but it's not easy to find. 

[scallywag]

I've merged the thread you started about genetic testing to an existing thread: Genetic testing: "Personalized medicine, liver enzymes, etc."

 

A good way to find existing topics is to google the site for the topic you're curious about, for example

site:survivingantidepressants.org "genetic test"

[rapunzel2]

thank you, scallywag!

 

eek, I'm not doing very good. quetiapine withdrawal has creeped up on me. I'm feeling very weak, fatigued, heart is pounding, nausea, hands tremble, and in total overstimulation - can't handle noise, lights, communication, information, etc. I'd just need to lie down in a very quiet place. unfortunately I have to work. 

 

this withdrawal is a bit different from fluoxetine withdrawal, although some things are the same (and I'm suspecting that with significant decrease in quetiapine also means decrease in fluoxetine since quetiapine potentiates fluoxetine). nause, trembling, heart pounding and weakness are a bit different from fluoxetine WD. 

 

I'm holding until it gets better. 

[scallywag]

Sorry you got caught by withdrawal. I hope that after a few weeks of holding, things settle down.

[rapunzel2]

talking about paradox reactions - I know that seroquel withdrawal causes insomnia in most of the people - for me it causes hypersomnia. I'm very tired and I doze off to sleep often, and I would sleep long if I could all the time. 

 

also I have sensory overstimulation. 

 

I hope they will pass soon. 

[rapunzel2]

After about a month of nasty symptoms, I'm getting better. It was about time! It gets psychologically hard to endure when you feel bad for long time. Such a relief to feel more alive again and having energy for stuff. 

 

In the meantime... I discovered that it's possible to upload 23andme genetic raw data to Strategene and get a really thorough genetic report. I had 23andme, but only ancestry data, since they don't give health data to europeans. so that possibility to use this data was a huge discovery for me!

 

and some interesting things came out. I have a double mutation of MAOA several alleles, which means that it's working 75% more actively than normal. this is associated with psychiatric disorders!!! Apparently there are some things that could slow it down but I'm still learning. 

 

Also, in several places it's told that I might get choline deficiency, so I started to take that. Also my body doesn't convert ALA to EPA, ubiquinone to ubiquinol and betacarotene to A-vitamin. who could have figured?

 

Regarding MTHFR which can be associated with mental health problems a lot, I only have one minor mutation there, so probably it's not a big thing for me. 

 

I also ran some blood tests for minerals and my nutritional therapist said that it shows fatigue and general exhaustion. 

 

I also plan to do a test for bacteria, and parasites. 

[rapunzel2]

It appears that I have a variant in my ABCB1 gene that makes me 7x times less respond to antidepressants and this also makes side-effects harder. 

[jmncrr]

Hi

 

I have a simple question for you. Are you making 10% cuts weekly of your quetipine, and could that be the cause of your symptoms?

 

Have you suffered any anxiety?

 

Thank you

 

jmncrr

[rapunzel2]

yes, I did 3 consecutive cuts of seroquel and it resulted in withdrawal symptoms as expected. I holded and it's getting better.

 

I used to have social anxiety and I also had weird and strong fears about being alone and being abandoned. all those fears and anxiety has resolved 99% with gfcf diet and hardy nutritionals vitamins-minerals. 

[jmncrr]

rapunzel2,

 

I to am tapering an anti psychotic.

 

What are your withdrawal symptoms?

 

Does the fluoxetine help buffer some of the withdrawals from quetiapine?

 

Thank you