rapunzel2: a mess with drugs

[rapunzel2]

thanks Addax!

 

yeah - sleep got better, too! last night I fell asleep ok, and today I slept until 1pm. I feel more refreshed and less irritable.

 

still, have to do a long hold now. 

[rapunzel2]

I had a glimpse of myself today! back from times when I could feel the world's beauty and life seemed a little bit magic. wow. I guess it's coming when I go down with the doses. it's so promising. maybe I could get my life back

[rapunzel2]

my condition improved quite quickly after updosing with seroquel. I felt that I'm okey. 

 

two weeks after updosing I made a tiny, tiny cut in fluoxetine. really, really tiny, 2,3%. I did it because I felt rather good, and thought that I want to go on. 

 

but now it seems that things have gone bad I have felt really bad for a couple of days, and yesterday it felt like I don't want to live. It was just too much, too painful and I updosed yesterday to the same amount of fluoxetine I was taking before.

 

what astonishes, amazes and horrifies me, is that I'm not able to make even such a little cut! I'm still taking 17,52mg fluoxetine. and if I'm not able to even cut by 2,5% or I have to hold several months hold inbetween, it means I just can't get rid of this drug at all!!!! at the same time, I have bad side effects which prevent me from going to work full time (tiredness, sleeping too much). and even so small cuts leave me with really bad withdrawal. It means that I have to suffer at least 2-3, maybe 4 years more. and I can't work, and I'm so broke already. and I can't really socialize or find a new relationship. and I will be too old for the time I'm drug-free, to have children anymore. 

 

it's so discouraging and I just feel my life is over, because I can't fathom suffering 2-4 more years without the ability to live my life, work, socialize, find a partner, have children, etc. I'm just too disabled for all that due to side effects and withdrawal.

 

how is it that people are able to make 10% cuts here, and I can't even make 2,3% cut? that seems really extreme even in this population here. it seems like I'm really worse off than many other people who are withdrawing. I would be very happy if I could go on with 10% in a month, or if I could at least make it to lower quantities of the drug (at least under 10mg). 

 

I'm so discouraged and desperate

[andy]

Hi Rapunzel

I can feel the desperation in your post ,i am sorry you are going through this.Maybe try some cbt and dont dwell on how much you have cut here and there .I find thinking about it doesnt help at all.I am in withdrawal but either distract myself or practice what ive learnt at CBT

HTH

[Addax]

Repunzel, I am sorry to read how discouraged and desperate you're feeling!  I know it must be so disheartening after feeling so good.  I know how much you want to be rid of Prozac and rid of it quickly.  I feel the exact same way and my impatience can be my downfall.  

 

Just because you need to make tiny cuts now, doesn't mean you'll need to make the same tiny cuts in the future.  This was the first cut of your prozac in many months, right?  So my guess is that a shock wave might be expected. I don't know that, but it's that assumption that has me scared about my first cut since April. I have a feeling this first step might be a bit of a doozy for me, like stepping into a freezing cold swimming pool or ocean.  That first step if a shock for sure and you might pull out thinking there's no way you can tolerate water that cold, but then the following steps might still offer a slight shock but they are always much less intense as us and our bodies sort of know what to expect and begin to adjust.  I guess what I'm saying is that you shouldn't lose hope.  Needing a 1% or 2% cut now doesn't mean you wont be able to manage a 10% cut later.  

 

I'm about to write about my own first Prozac cut in my thread. It's only been two days, but I'm feeling flu-like symptoms coming on.  Ugh.

 

I just went to my thread to write and saw that Petu had posted a link to the journal article I mentioned above: http://journals.psychiatryonline.org/data/Journals/AJP/3760/826.pdf

[Petunia]

how is it that people are able to make 10% cuts here, and I can't even make 2,3% cut? that seems really extreme even in this population here. it seems like I'm really worse off than many other people who are withdrawing.

 

Hi rapunzel,  other people didn't recently make a 40% cut in another drug, then updose after going into withdrawal.

 

You went from 31 mg on 13 July to 18.75 mg on 19 July. That is a 40% cut. I am not surprised you aren't feeling well.

 

Given the huge size of reduction you have made I think going back up to 25 mg sounds reasonable. Or you could try something like 22 mg.  Even after you go back up I think it may be a while before you are fully stable after the shock of such a large cut, so hold on for the ride while things settle down.

 

two weeks after updosing I made a tiny, tiny cut in fluoxetine. really, really tiny, 2,3%. I did it because I felt rather good, and thought that I want to go on. 

 

but now it seems that things have gone bad I have felt really bad for a couple of days, and yesterday it felt like I don't want to live. It was just too much, too painful and I updosed yesterday to the same amount of fluoxetine I was taking before.

 

 

I'm so discouraged and desperate

 

I've also taken melatonin and GABA to help things. 

I'm sorry you are feeling so bad again after feeling better after your updose, but you need to be patient, too many changes too fast.  I know you want to get off the prozac, but after a 40% cut and then an updose of quetiapine, you needed at least a month to stabilize before making any more changes, probably longer.  You also need to be careful adding new supplements.

 

Many people become very sensitive to drugs and supplements after they've experienced withdrawal symptoms for even a short time. Do not count on taking the big risks you used to take. Make changes slowly.

 

Introducing a drug or supplement or changing a dosage very gradually gives you the ability to sample how it might affect you before you go too far.

 

A big dose or big change probably will cause a worse bad reaction than a very small dose or change. You can injure your nervous system pretty badly with a big change -- it might take you months or years to feel better.

 

Please read through:  http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/6632-the-rule-of-3kis-keep-it-simple-keep-it-slow-keep-it-stable/

 

I hope you feel better again soon, please be patient.

 

Petu.

[rapunzel2]

thanks, Petu! I guess I needed some voice of reason, because I totally lost mine. 

I feel a bit better after the reinstatement, but still weak. 

I think you are right. I've messed things up and need to stabilise. It's just so easy to forget the patience and try to go on if you feel better. 

 

Do you think that instead of 10% cuts which affect me quite strongly, it would be more safe to go on with minicuts? so the destabilization will be less. maybe in the long run its faster and safer way. 

 

I realise I need a long hold now. I just hate long holds. I hope I will be able to keep my reasoning and not hurry things. 

 

thanks for good words to Addax and andy, too!

[Petunia]

Do you think that instead of 10% cuts which affect me quite strongly, it would be more safe to go on with minicuts? so the destabilization will be less. maybe in the long run its faster and safer way. 

 

 

Yes, this makes sense to me. 

 

But please understand that just because you feel better for a few days, that doesn't mean your nervous system has stabilized and you are ready for another cut.  Symptoms, if you get them, after a cut will come in waves, then there will be times of feeling better, then more symptoms.  You need to wait until the waves of symptoms from the cut have stopped.  For most people, most of the time, this takes about 4 weeks.  But everyone is different and as the dose gets lower, this can change. So when we say 4 weeks, that's just a guide, it may take 6 weeks or 2 months or in some cases even longer.

 

Cutting by a smaller percentage is a good idea if 10% causes too much destabilization for you.  But this doesn't necessarily mean that you will be able to make more frequent cuts, you will still need to listen to your body and wait for symptoms to subside.

 

This is why we suggest keeping notes on paper of symptoms, so that you can see your own patterns over time and get a better understanding of the safest choices for you personally.

[rapunzel2]

thank you, Petu!

 

I feel a lot better by now. But now I just try to enjoy that and hold. It makes sense to hold and wait for all the waves to be gone. I have had pretty specific periods of withdrawal so far, but maybe it's not so clear cut and I need to hold longer for the stabilization, if the things have gone bad. 

[Addax]

Very glad to read you're feeling better, Repunzel.  

[rapunzel2]

help! I'm in trouble! I forgot to take my yesterdays dose of prozac (17.5mg)! life has been so busy and I'm a bit in love, so I just forgot but what to do now? maybe I should take a bit higher dosage today - 20mg?????

[andy]

help! I'm in trouble! I forgot to take my yesterdays dose of prozac (17.5mg)! life has been so busy and I'm a bit in love, so I just forgot but what to do now? maybe I should take a bit higher dosage today - 20mg?????

take the same dose at your usual time,you wont notice the difference

[Addax]

I agree with Andy.

 

And hooray for being a nit in love!

[rapunzel2]

I already took 20mg. gosh, such a mess. I will not let it happen again!

 

I'm scared that this will now influence me a week later.... we'll see

 

thanks Addax, I hope it works out! the love thing, I mean

[rapunzel2]

all my body hurts, I'm sleeping, I'm tired and I feel like zombie. 

I'm a drug addict, and it furiates me. 

I hope it passes quickly since I returned to my original dose. 

[rapunzel2]

reporting in: as couple of days have passed and I'm back to original dose, I'm pretty much functional again. phew!

so much going on in my life and so much work to do as well, it seems that I can't go on with the cuts before the end of october. Maybe it's good for me, to have a decently long hold inbetween the decreases. 

[rapunzel2]

wow. I'm reading Peter Breggin's "Medication Madness" (thanks for someone who suggested it here), and it fills some very important puzzle pieces for me. 

 

It seems to me that my initial very rapid deterioration that took place in 2006 may have been indeed caused by antidepressants. I could characterize this period definitely with the word "agitated". at first I had manic-like period, where I ran around in my apartment and tried to clean it, but in reality it was just very hectic jumping around, without getting anything done. I remember that I was very agitated and in hurry, I couldn't have sat down and relaxed, I needed to keep doing something. 

 

then, when I deteriorated into deep depression, it was also very agitated state - I coudln't sleep at all, and I my body was awfully tense. I even developed delusional ideas in that period. it's my luck that they didn't progress further because then I may have ended dead. I also had stupor, couldn't move myself in some periods, I was very slow... etc. 

 

why I didn't consider meds as a cuplrit before? there are several reasons:

• in 2003 I had taken the same drug (cipralex) but only half  a tablet, without problems
• in 2006, after this awful experience - as soon as I got a little bit better I ditched the meds. things did improve in a sense that I regained my mental clarity and normal senses, but things did not get totally well at all and by 2007 autumn I had fallen back to quite deep depression (but not anything like this 2006 mess), even without meds
• things are much complicated with several traumas, work burnout, and character traits that fuel depression - so there were just very many psychological factors
• I have always suspected that my ending baby pills had something to do with that mental breakdown. but when I think of it - I ended them in June, and then I was quite a mess after that (crying etc), but things were not that bad. I started meds, and I quess things went awry after that. 

gives me a lot of food for thought. I have also considered myself as very mentally ill person throughout the years. it is a little relief to understand that maybe I'm not that ill, I'm just driven mad by meds! I'm definitely very sensitive for meds. 

 

And of course, sadly, I'm now even more convinced that drugs caused my mom's suicide. I wish I could obtain her medication records...

[mammaP]

I was shocked when I realised that meds had been my problem for over 20 years. I had a lot

of trauma in my lifetime that would try anyone but that is not being mentally ill! I was working

bringing up a family when I was put on meds and suddenly I was very very ill and unable to

function, doctors diagnosed me as bi-polar and I believed that diagnosis for years. 

 

I am so grateful to have found this site and discovered the truth behind big pharma and the

drugs they create.  Anatomy of an epidemic by Robert Whitaker is another excellent book

to read if you haven't already, a real eye opener!

[rapunzel2]

Anatomy of an epidemic by Robert Whitaker is another excellent book

to read if you haven't already, a real eye opener!

I have, this was a first book that really blew my mind. 

but so far I didn't consider that my great breakdown had to do with meds. but it's actually quite possible... when I read that book, it makes sense. 

[Addax]

Hi Repunzel!

 

Thank you for coming by my thread and checking up on me with words of support. It means a lot.

 

I'm going to look up the book you mentioned...

 

It's a scary thing to realize the impact these drugs have had on us. Almost scary looking back and seeing it rather than realizing it in the moment. It must be very sad to think that your mother's suicide could be the result of the drugs she was prescribed. I wouldn't be surprised if there was anger as well. I'm so sorry for that. Perhaps you could speak to an attorney about obtaining her records?

 

I sometimes find myself angry at the pharmaceutical companies and the many doctors that wrote my prescriptions along the way...

 

I've been a bit wonky as you've seen in my thread or I would have left word or some evidence that I'm still reading your thread and had noticed you hadn't posted in a while... I've been mostly in my own head...I hope your still feeling stable.

[rapunzel2]

thank you, Addax... I know you are going through tough time and I really hope it will get better for you.

 

I was doing quite fine for a long time, a couple of months. so I did a cut on monday. it was 1,8% cut from 17,52 to 17,2. it's a third day and I'm already feeling it. tired, dizzy, don't feel like doing anything. I hope it will stay like this, don't go any worse, and ends quickly. 

[rapunzel2]

I'm apathetic as hell. can't write anything more in forums. it's debiliating. 

[Addax]

Just checking in to see how you're doing. It's been a while... I hope you're doing well!

[rapunzel2]

thank you, Addax, it's so nice of you to come by and ask how am I doing

 

I'm going on. improving slowly and with bumps on the road. 

 

I uploaded a graph about my tapering, if anybody wants to see http://s22.postimg.org/htqsdb9vl/ravimite_v_hendus_graafik_kuude_kaupa.jpg

the red one is Seroquel and blue is Prozac.

 

I felt quite stuck in autumn. but the I accidentally tried juice fasting for 4 days, and it miraculously took away or lessened my withdrawal symptoms a lot. after that, though, I found that lots of foods trigger me - meat, sugar, etc (I'm already gluten free and casein free). I discussed things with my nutriotionist and we suspected something about liver... 

 

then the new year came and I went to chinese doctor. he told me to reduce the vitamins I'm taking. I reduced from 15 capsules to 10 capsules and it f***d up me for some time - messed with my sleep, and I was tired and my immune system declined and I got cold. but I guess it was a right move for my liver. I also started taking milk thistle, which helps the liver. 

 

and then I got acupuncture with needles. 10 times in a row, and I scheduled it so that it was in time of my next cut of fluoxetine. it helped a lot. I expected to be very tired, apathetic and basically not functional, as I had been before with withdrawals. but I managed through it much better. a bit tiredness and apathy, but nothing that bad, and I stayed functional.

 

after that, though, it has again gotten worse and I definitely feel the effects of last withdrawal. but this is very encouraging for me, that needles can lessen the withdrawal effects. I intend to use this continuously thoughout the cuts now. although it takes a lot of money. 

 

so, in a way, I'm progressing. some time ago it felt like I hit a wall and can't go on, but I guess I can now.

 

when I'm feeling better, I definitely notice how much better I am on lower doses. I'm starting to feel the beauty of the world. and I connect with people. I'm also less tired than I was on 40mg prozac. I even managed to get a half-time job. 

 

I really hope to be totally free some day. 

[Addax]

Oh Repunzel! Yay!  It sounds like your taper is progressing well. That's great about the part-time job. Really great.  And I'm glad to hear you got over that wall but sorry you felt a little worse lately. From everything I've read thus far the lower our dose gets the more sensitive we are to drops in dose.  

 

It is promising that you've found relief with the acupuncture and wonderful that you feel more connected to people and the world.  THAT is progress right there! Major progress.  

 

I think you'll be free of these drugs.  I think we both will.  As frustrating as it is, its just going to take us (and our brains) time.    

[rapunzel2]

you are so supporting, than you Addax! I really appreciate.

I'm so glad that you got over your worst recent times. you did right decisions. now you can just start going slowly again. and the fear about thing going out of hands - it will lessen in time... it takes time to trust things again.

wishing all the best for you!

[rapunzel2]

I'm thinking about one solution that maybe on first glance will feel weird for you, but I think it may help me. I'm considering switching from prozac to zoloft. 

 

why? my side effects on prozac are intolerable. prozac is the worst SSRI on causing insomnia. In my case, my brain works against it so effectively, that I'm experiencing very bad quality sleep, I'm always very tired, and I sleep a lot (although it's not refreshing). this problem started on the first day of prozac in 2012, and has not gone away. only in time when I have gotten into smaller dosages, it has decreased, slowly. but it's still very intolerable.

 

the only AD I have tolerated previously, has been zoloft. didn't have very much side effects, and I didn't have to take seroquel it in order to sleep better. zoloft is an SSRI which has less insomnia problems than prozac.

 

many people are switching to prozac because withdrawals are more tolerable due to long half life. I have had more problems with late-onset withdrawal symptoms than immediate. I have never experienced brain zaps, for example.

 

my friend was in a similar situation with effexor (venlafaxine). withdrawals were awful but the side effects were also intolerable - she was also very tired and oversleeping. she switched to prozac and feels so much better now.

 

I will not get off the drugs for a long time. If I would have more tolerable side effects during this time, it would be a great win for me.

 

the risks are that:

- I will have new side effects for zoloft now, because I'm more messed up

- I will have bad withdrawals even if I'm switching to another drug. I have never made a switch. do people get withdrawals with those?

 

what do you guys think?

[Pugknows]

I have no idea how to answer your question about Prozac versus Zoloft withdrawal, but I'll bet you'll get arguments from both sides about which withdrawal is more excruciating: Whichever one the victim is withdrawing from.

[rapunzel2]

I have no idea how to answer your question about Prozac versus Zoloft withdrawal, but I'll bet you'll get arguments from both sides about which withdrawal is more excruciating: Whichever one the victim is withdrawing from.

I'm not looking for easier withdrawal, but better side effect profile while on the drug. 

[Wildflower0214]

 

 

I have no idea how to answer your question about Prozac versus Zoloft withdrawal, but I'll bet you'll get arguments from both sides about which withdrawal is more excruciating: Whichever one the victim is withdrawing from.

I'm not looking for easier withdrawal, but better side effect profile while on the drug.

I think the reasoning with Pug's response still makes sense, even to your recent question. The side effects differ from person to person. It's so hard with how unpredictable these drugs are to say how they will impact individual body chemistry. I guess that is why everyone has a differnet WD. We are all just so different.

[Wildflower0214]

I'm thinking about one solution that maybe on first glance will feel weird for you, but I think it may help me. I'm considering switching from prozac to zoloft.

 

why? my side effects on prozac are intolerable. prozac is the worst SSRI on causing insomnia. In my case, my brain works against it so effectively, that I'm experiencing very bad quality sleep, I'm always very tired, and I sleep a lot (although it's not refreshing). this problem started on the first day of prozac in 2012, and has not gone away. only in time when I have gotten into smaller dosages, it has decreased, slowly. but it's still very intolerable.

 

the only AD I have tolerated previously, has been zoloft. didn't have very much side effects, and I didn't have to take seroquel it in order to sleep better. zoloft is an SSRI which has less insomnia problems than prozac.

 

many people are switching to prozac because withdrawals are more tolerable due to long half life. I have had more problems with late-onset withdrawal symptoms than immediate. I have never experienced brain zaps, for example.

 

my friend was in a similar situation with effexor (venlafaxine). withdrawals were awful but the side effects were also intolerable - she was also very tired and oversleeping. she switched to prozac and feels so much better now.

 

I will not get off the drugs for a long time. If I would have more tolerable side effects during this time, it would be a great win for me.

 

the risks are that:

- I will have new side effects for zoloft now, because I'm more messed up

- I will have bad withdrawals even if I'm switching to another drug. I have never made a switch. do people get withdrawals with those?

 

what do you guys think?

Yes. People get withdrawal from switching. It is a further injury to the nervous system. It is not something I would recommend.

[rapunzel2]

so you are absolutely sure that the risks of enduring withdrawal on switching and having side effects and withdrawal symptoms that are unknown in advance outweigh the benefit of maybe having a less disrupted sleep and more quality of life for 2-3 more years?

[Wildflower0214]

 

so you are absolutely sure that the risks of enduring withdrawal on switching and having side effects and withdrawal symptoms that are unknown in advance outweigh the benefit of maybe having a less disrupted sleep and more quality of life for 2-3 more years?[/quote

 

No one can tell you for "absolutely sure" what will or will not happen. We all have to weigh the possible scenarios and make our own choices based on the information we have.

[Pugknows]

It sounds like you want reassurance on switching to a new drug. I can't do it, but maybe a mod can help you. One thing I can tell you for "sure" is that nothing is for sure. That's been my experience anyway.

[Addax]

Oh Repunzel, I'm sorry you're struggling with insomnia. It's such a maddening thing! I didn't experienced insomnia as a side effect of prozac but I did experience The underlying fatigue and yawning as a side effect, and hated it. I used coffee and energy drinks a lot. I bad idea when in withdrawal.

 

I didn't experience Insomnia until I hit that horrible withdrawal crash last fall. It was truly awful.

 

I don't think there's anyway to know precisely how you'll react to switching over to Zoloft, especially since your currently withdrawing.

 

When you say insomnia, are you unable to fall asleep? Having trouble staying asleep? Wake up a lot during the night?

 

I don't know if you've already tried it, but Magnisum and a sleep mask helped me with sleep or made my nightly awakenings less intense so I could fall back to sleep more quickly. Recently I started using a guided meditation app that has been great. I don't know if it's the meditation or just the speakers voice, but it's been effective.

 

I wish I could offer you reassurance in either direction. :-/

[rapunzel2]

hey!

 

I don't want reassurance, because I know that nobody knows in advance how it may go. I just wanted to share my thoughts and maybe somebody finds something about it that I haven't thought about. or maybe I want just understanding.

 

Addax, my sleep problems are weird - I don't have insomnia, but my sleep quality is so low that I'm tired all the time and have to sleep all the time. it is definitely a side effect. 

 

I take magnesium and I also take tryptophan, which helps me to have at least somewhat better sleep.

 

I need to think about this decision some more. I can't do it right away anyway, because I have too much responsibilities ahead.