rapunzel2: a mess with drugs

[rapunzel2]

anybody who is willing to think with me. should I decrease this complex? it gives withdrawal but it seems that taking this complex gives adverse reaction. 

 

dont know what to do and I´m going crazy with akathisia!!!!!!!!!!!!

[rapunzel2]

HIGH ALERT WARNING FOR PREGNENOLONE!

 

Just writing out here once again - please stay away from pregnenolone at all costs! It influences brain directly, therefore acts like psychiatric drug. I suggest in this forum it should be categorized as psychiatric drug and therefore people should stay away from it!

 

Especially if you have had trouble with fluoxetine, Clozapine, olanzapine, lithium, anticonvulsants, antiseizure medications (valproate, lamitrigine, carbamazepine), diazepam, midazolam. My biggest problem so far was fluoxetine withdrawal. It seems that fluoxetine influences pregnenolone in brain, therefore the mechanisms there might be similar. 

 

From here https://behavioralandbrainfunctions.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1744-9081-8-61

 

„The treatment with fluoxetine stabilizes the level of neurosteroids in depression and panic, and it has been hypothesized that at least part of the therapeutic effect of selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors (SSRIs) could be through their influence on neurosteroids“

 

Fluoxetine, which is effective in panic attack and major depression, also affect the levels of neurosteroids [66, 67]. A role for neurosteroids in bipolar disorder is also consistent with the observation that a number of anticonvulsants (including valproate, lamotrigine and carbamazepine) are effective in bipolar disorder. Preclinical evidence suggests that lithium might induce its action via an effect on neurosteroids.

 

Even the two atypical antipsychotics clozapine and olanzapine, effective against the manic phase of bipolar disorder [85, 86], were proven to modify the levels of neurosteroids in animal studies.

In addition, benzodiazepines such as diazepam or midazolam were found to promote neurosteroid synthesis. 

[rapunzel2]

my situation - I haven´t been able to stay away from diazepam. I took it for the night and I was able to sleep. I just wouln´t have lasted.

 

I´m reacting to this complex now with severe akathisia. my feeling is that it´s giving me now adverse reaction. I don´t know. maybe the updose was too high.

 

I´m thinking that my only change would be maybe to switch to diasepam. and then later taper down diasepam. diasepam seems to take down this akathisia response. unfortunately as you see from the above, diasepam also works on pregnenolone. 

 

I don´t have any other class of drugs that I could use for switch: 

-    Antidepressants – contraindicated
-    Antipsühhootikumid – cause akathisia. I was addicted to seroquel so the addiction route in the brain is strong and cant use that. Olanzapiin and clozapin contraindicated. I dont know what more variants there are or if they influence pregnenolone
-    neuroleptics, anticonvulsants– contraindicated, work on same system
-    benzos– contraindicated, seem to work on same system
-    Blood pressure drugs like propanolool – they are not giving me

 

At the same time, without any help from some kind of drug I cannot: 

1) get rid of the complex (and it creates other hormonal issues)

2) stay alive. I´m actively suicidal when in akathisia and barely keeping going. the akathisia is too strong

[Altostrata]

I guess you missed all of these:

 

On 4/28/2020 at 11:48 AM, Altostrata said:

Reinstating maybe 25% of the supplement might help.

 

On 4/29/2020 at 1:04 PM, Altostrata said:

 

Good to hear you're feeling better, having reinstated. If I were you, I'd be very, very careful about adding more drugs, which is what they like to do in hospitals.

 

If you take more psychiatric drugs, I hope you understand -- I will not dig you out over and over. You know how to taper.

 

On 4/29/2020 at 6:55 PM, Altostrata said:

Doctors know very little about withdrawal from any kind of drug.

 

'I would taper by cutting up the tablet or dividing the capsule contents. I'd do what you can with a 25% taper per week or 2 weeks.

 

On 4/29/2020 at 7:48 PM, Altostrata said:

....

That supplement has a lot of endocrine disruptors in it that I would never take. It could be 2 capsules are too much for you now.

....

 

On 4/30/2020 at 9:19 AM, Altostrata said:

I'd just taper directly from the damned tablet or capsule. Withdrawal may not be smooth, you'll have to accept that.

 

 

@rapunzel2 , there no knowledge or interest here in adding more drugs to compensate for your mistake. Please discuss additional drugs with your prescriber. When you do this, also discuss tapering off the drugs with your prescriber, she should be prepared for deprescribing, it's not our job.

[rapunzel2]

Sorry, Alto, i was in the grips of severe akathisia and my brain function and ability to think was severely compromised. Unfortulately I reinstated too much.  Because smaller amounts didnt work and I was severely afraid for my life.

 

seems that bigger amount doesnt work either. I have stared to come down slowly again. I'll try to keep in mind your suggestion of 25% per week or two. Right now Im tapering directly. It was getting too hard to get the ingredients anyway.

 

I have been doing everything in my power to take as few drugs as possible,  but have succumbed to evening dose of diasepame. If I dont take this I dont sleep at all and I'm in severe akathisia next day all day. I'm deeply sorry, for everybody and for myself and my body. 
 

I have made quite a show here about not wanting any drugs so nobody is forcing anything to me and they ask politely what am I willing to take at all. (It's quite a miracle in regular hospital!). Unfortunately I have no good answers. I dont want to take anything at all. But I also dont want to die. I have severe suicidal thoughts in akathisia.

 

if I make it out of here alive I will never push my body further than she feels like. I was fixated on becoming a mother and the clock was ticking. It was my biggest dream. I wanted it so much. 4 miscarriages also leave serious trauma that affects psychologically. It got out of hands. I have to let this dream free now.... along everything else I had planned for my life...

[Altostrata]

I have said everything that I can say about your situation. You need to figure it out. Do not post elsewhere on the site about how you're not getting any support.

[rapunzel2]

Situation as follows:

- have been able to reduce -20% of the complex

 

not sleeping at all though, have to take benzos because of sleep and akathisia  have taken diasepam 9 drops a day + lorazepam 1mg. I just wouldnt have survived akathisia, was severely suicidal. also the nights with 0 sleep are very traumatizing and hard. When I take benzos I still don´t sleep over 2-3 hours, but I´m not in akathisia. 

 

It seems that withdrawal from the complex can take at least over month. at the same time I cannot do that if something is not helping with akathisia/extreme anxiety. I´m hoping that once the complex is removed, the akathisia will subside? Since it feels like I´m having adverse reaction to it. 

 

I´m worried that I will get hooked on benzos. I have no history with benzos though, only antidepressants and seroquel. 

 

Is it safer to ride it out on benzos and then start to withdraw immediately after getting rid of the complex and have some kind of stabilization/sleep ability? Of would it be safer to switch benzos at some point to something else? what would be even theoretically safe(st) and would help with sleep? pregabalin? 

[rapunzel2]

situation today.

 

my body is a bit calmed down, I slept today. not well, but at least slept. the intense thermoregulation issues are also reduced greatly. 

 

I have been able to reduce the complex in 5 days from 2 capsules to 1,6 capsules. I hope it´s a good sign that my body at the same time has calmed a bit. 

 

have managed to stay only on diasepam 9 drops.

 

they are talking about more aggressive treatment to "treat" my hypochondria about drugs. in case they want to start treating more aggressively I have to leave hospital. I try to be here as long as possible without additional treatment, because the structure of the days and feeding 3x a day is good. my family will have to start feeding and caring for me because at the moment Im very fragile and unable to do smallest things. 

[rapunzel2]

Situation today.

stayed on diasepam 9 drops.

didnt get sleep. At all. Developed restlessless at night. Very bad feeling. Was not given benzo in hospital, they mocked me and made fun of me.

 

really desperate. Really feel i cannot endure and need to take something else to relief or for the time of withdrawing the hormonal complex. Please, please help - what options do I have, everything seems very dangerous. I dont want to die! Please

[rapunzel2]

Alto, I beg for your knowledge. Should I decrease more fast from the complex, since it seems to give me adverse reaction? Increase benzos to cope? Any other drugs just to stay alive? I really dont want to die  

[FindRest]

1 hour ago, rapunzel2 said:

Any other drugs just to stay alive? I really dont want to die

Rapunzel, you have repeatedly referred to dying over and over again in this thread. The hard truth is that as long as you continue to hang on to death as an option, the longer you will have people making decisions for you. 
 

Choosing to live is not easy. It takes a tremendous amount of strength, courage, and perseverance. You may not feel you have these qualities, but I believe you do. Choosing to live does not require taking more psychiatric drugs. However, it does require you to go through some very uncomfortable physical and emotional symptoms...some of them feeling unbearable. But, you CAN live and you CAN survive. You’ve got to make the choice. Until you do, I’m afraid you will never get off this rollercoaster ride. 
 

I say all of this out of compassion. I may not have said this very eloquently, but my heart is in the right place. I can relate more than you know.

 

[rapunzel2]

FindRest, I have kept saying this, because these symptoms for me have been so bad that I have had intense suicidal thougths and I have feared really strongly that I hurt myself. Of course I wouldn´t want to say anything like that. 

 

I do choose life. I want to live. but I really cannot endure those symptoms.

 

My hope is that if I manage to withdraw from this complex with the help of benzos or something else, maybe the akathisia will subside somehow...

 

I have never taken benzos. How long does it take to develop addiction? Right now they are taking down the akathisia, but I cannot take them long. I dont know what then/next. 

 

They are suggesting pregabalin. I think I have to take it, have no choice. I hope it makes me sleep and brings down the akathisia anxiety. If anybody has some other idea, please tell. Or maybe gabapentin is less dangerous, I read that it has less addiction potential than pregabalin?

 

Yesterday they upped the benzos from 9 drops of diazepam to 14 drops. it helped me sleep, and takes down akathisia. I really do not want to take those things, but I do want to stay alive.

 

I have gone down with the complex from 2 capsules to 1,2 capsules.

 

Please understand that I didnt make this mistake by purpose and I´m paying already very high price for it. I trusted somebody to help me. I´m very sorry about that. I really hope that people here are willing to help me a bit more, as far as anybody´s knowledge is possible. 

 

 

 

[rapunzel2]

the akathisia is ramping up so much! i dont know what to do! I hoped that decreasing complex would decrease adverse reaction. it doesnt seem to. 

i´m on benzos and in akathisia and I don´t see ANY HOPE. suicidal. dont know what to do. 

[rapunzel2]

It comes in waves. this wave passed now. feeling calmer, one moment I was even feeling sleepy. nervous system is a big mess. still hopeless and thinking about no solutions. 

[Altostrata]

On 5/7/2020 at 8:31 PM, rapunzel2 said:

Alto, I beg for your knowledge. Should I decrease more fast from the complex, since it seems to give me adverse reaction? Increase benzos to cope? Any other drugs just to stay alive? I really dont want to die  

 

What do you think? Can you review my prior posts and apply common sense to your situation?

 

On 5/7/2020 at 4:22 AM, rapunzel2 said:

they are talking about more aggressive treatment to "treat" my hypochondria about drugs. in case they want to start treating more aggressively I have to leave hospital. I try to be here as long as possible without additional treatment, because the structure of the days and feeding 3x a day is good. my family will have to start feeding and caring for me because at the moment Im very fragile and unable to do smallest things. 

 

You are not a helpless victim here. Your entire history shows you seek drug treatment. Please do not involve us in your ongoing drama with drugs.

[Rosetta]

All I can say is that you can survive akathisia.  You have to be determined.  I hope you are.  There are “treatments, “ but they do NOT involve drugs.  I believe drugs can only make it worse.  I believe you will react to almost any drug.  That’s my experience.  No one can say for certain that any particular drug will make it worse, but not knowing which one will, I chose to avoid them all.  
 

The solutions are hot baths, hot showers, maybe cold showers (I didn’t try that after the hot baths worked.  The idea of cold was abhorrent to me.). You can distract with something; you have to try different things.  I read books outside in the sun.  I couldn’t watch shows or movies at first.  When I could, I used those to distract.  You must distract yourself.  That is your tenporary relief.  That is how you get through.  I took my iPad into the bathroom, propped it up on the toilet tank with a towel under it to prevent it from slipping off, and I watched shows while sitting in a hot bath.  That may not be ideal for you, but you have to find your way.  

 

A shoulder wrap that you can heat in the microwave may help.  Maybe you need frozen ice packs; I don’t know.  Try everything and anything until you find the keys.

 

 Thinking of you, Rosetta

[Lloyd]

Distraction is the big thing for me in managing akathasia. Playing video games and as mentioned above hot showers and baths help a ton - it's like the akathasia isnt there anymore.

[rapunzel2]

I hope it´s ok to document my process here. I totally acknowledge that I´m 100% responsible myself and will have to do all decisions myself. 

 

19th april - stopped the complex (2 capsules). developed restlessness and insomnia

23 april - reinstated to 1 capsule. helped for 1 night

26 april - reinstated to 2 capsules. helped for 1 night

by then had bad akathisia waves

they didnt get better

29 april landed in hospital. was given diazepam 7 drops. occasional lorazepam 1mg. most days 10mg propanolol. 

2-9 May started decreasing complex, went down from 2 capsules to 1,3 capsules. bad akathisia, bad insomnia. 8th may diazepam was upped to 14 drops (5mg)

9-10 May severe akathisia, severe insomnia. realised that decrease in complex hasnt helped. decided to hold for now everything. In severe akathisia waves I had to make an important decision whether to take anything more to help (doctor pushed pregabalin/gabapentin). I was tempted for any relief because akathisia was awfully intense. Still I managed to decide no, I will not take anything additional. 

10 May -  took homeopathy. slept well

11 May - much better day in terms of akathisia, no acute waves. insomnia still. 

 

Holding the complex now on 1,3mg. I have no idea if I stabilize on that. 

 

Very concerned about diazepam addiction. at the moment too fragile to change anything. thinking, hoping, praying for some stabilization and maybe after a week I will try to start reducing diazepam. I dont know anything about benzo addiction, never taken them. have been taking diazepam for 2 weeks now and I think it´s already an addiction time frame. I feel like benzo addiction is worse than this complex addiction at the moment. at the same time, insomnia and akathisia can be very traumatizing and barely able to tolerate. 

 

I have technical problems of dosing the complex. its a powder in 2 capsules. it doesnt dissolve in water. I don´t know how to be precise with it. I don´t know if there are any drug analogues and methods of decreasing something like this precisely. 

 

I´ve been praying a lot. and trying to use all spiritual help there is possible. been very very scared, especially when my body ramps up and produces fear. 

[rapunzel2]

documenting my problems.

 

update:

 

12. may - lot of severe anxiety waves but not totally akathisia. in the evening I made an imaginative journey to the future with holistic therapist and saw myself totally well and strong. it gave me a lot of hope. I didnt sleep at night but crashed to heavy sleep in the morning that was refreshing. 

13. may - very good day compared to all others. no strong akathisia or anxiety waves. like 80% better day. feeling close to normal some moments. night: slept 2,5 hours, then anxiety, wasnt able to rest lying still. dropped diasepam from 14 drops to 12 dorps. 

14 may - by morning akathisia like waves. really really intense anxiety

 

I have identified my problem as cortisol spikes. I always wake up at 4 o clock.  but instead of cortisol morning I have cortisol days, all day, every day. the adrenal complex has really messed up my adrenals. 

 

Its really awfully hard to know what to do next. decreasing the complex gives me so hard anxiety/akathisia that I cant tolerate. at the same time taking it will further mess up my adrenals. it also includes licorice root, which extends cortisol half time. I also take diazepam now that I want to decrease but I don´t know if I can. 

 

 

 

[Altostrata]

You might find it helpful to join a site for steroid withdrawal or endocrinological problems. We don't know anything about steroid withdrawal here.

 

Too bad you're on a benzo now as well. You might find BenzoBuddies to be a good community for your situation.

[rapunzel2]

Thanks, Alto. Unfortunately I haven't found any. Also, there are no precedents for such problems with pregnenolone or DHEA or adrenal complex. I haven't found anybody with such problems. There are no problems for people with starting and stopping, Also, usually pregnenolone and dhea are taken with 5-10x quantities more than i have been taking.

 

there are also no specialists who can tell what is going on.

 

i have been able to reduce diazepam from 14 drops to 11 drops.

 

I had one night where I could sleep to the morning.

 

but today I again slept 2 hours. Such nights are very hard.

 

im at home from the hospital and home environment is much more safe for me. I havent had severe restlessness for a couple of days. But insomnia is hard, and Im very very tired.

[Altostrata]

We cannot answer your questions about steroid withdrawal here. Please document your progress elsewhere.

 

Please join BenzoBuddies if you would like to discuss benzo tapering.

[rapunzel2]

Here is stuart shipko's article that basically describes what happened to me https://www.madinamerica.com/2020/08/ssri-withdrawal-elephant/

 

9 months after jumping off 1,4mg prozac I got severe akathisia when I quit a supplement that included hormones. I'm not taking this supplement anymore, quit in may.

 

shipko tells about reinstating antidepressant. Im over one year out of taking prozac. Im scared that taking prozac would not help or make things very much worse. Scared.

 

I'm at the hospital and unfortunately receiving ect because things are really bad  

 

I think next step for me here is they would try an antidepressant  which is also dangerous for me I guess.

 

but akathisia is on such level that Im in serious danger.

 

any thoughts about reinstating or taking another antidepressant? To save my life. Maybe a homeopathic dose of prozac? Like 0,05mg. Prozac was so hard for me to withdraw and this is so strong drug for my system. 
 

akathisia is so relentless and i have constant suicidal thoughts, my functioning is on zero level.

[brassmonkey]

Seeing that you are in the hospital, most things will be out of your control, you will be able to voice your concerns and opinions to the doctors and possibly refuse treatment, but that will have its consequences.

 

"Once tardive akathisia develops, there are basically three options: wait it out, reinstate the antidepressant, or use benzodiazepines for symptom reduction. Although reinstatement sometimes makes withdrawal akathisia worse, this is very infrequent. With reinstatement most people return to their baseline. I always reinstate the same drug that was withdrawn." From Shipko's article.

 

You mentioned that the akathisia started after stopping a supplement that contained hormones. I would try reinstating that before before adding any new ssri or psych drug. Unfortunately this is uncharted territory so we have very little information to draw on, but this seems a logical place to start.

[rapunzel2]

Reinstating supplement will not help. I tried that in the beginning. Akathisia started improving only when I stopped the supplement completely.

 

but sadly, akathisia has remained in a bit lower level and is not improving.

 

i have been started on seroquel 25mg to sleep. I was seriously degrading without sleep.

 

i have a very understanding doctor who even listens to me and would even be ok if I start taking a homeopahtic dose of something. I believe prozac jump is responsible partly of my akathisia. But it seems too risky to add prozac back after a year  

 

i dont know what to add, maybe some other antidepressant would help. I literally cant take this akathisia anymore, it has become life threatening  

 

at the moment I chose to do ect because Im scared of all drugs and that akathisia would go worse. I dont know what to do though if ect is not helping  

 

any ideas?

[rapunzel2]

Im scared that maybe seroquel is making my aka worse. doc is suggesting trazadone for sleep or benzos. Im scared of every choice, it seems such a gamble. but without sleep I go into very bad place.

 

I couldnt make myself worse, then it becomes dangerous...

[Altostrata]

If you have found taking Seroquel makes your symptoms worse, I would reduce or discontinue Seroquel.

 

We don't offer monitoring services for your trying drugs, that's your doctor's job.

 

Your situation is out of the realm of tapering or withdrawal from psychiatric drugs. We cannot advise you on other drugs, you'll have to talk to your doctor about that -- and any adverse effects you get from them or other psychiatric treatment. We cannot advise you further.

[Rosetta]

I’m so sorry that you are struggling with aka, Rapunzel.  I have no advice, but I’m thinking of you.  I know that doesn’t help much.  Hold on.  

[rapunzel2]

On 8/29/2020 at 9:48 PM, Altostrata said:

If you have found taking Seroquel makes your symptoms worse, I would reduce or discontinue Seroquel.

 

We don't offer monitoring services for your trying drugs, that's your doctor's job.

 

Your situation is out of the realm of tapering or withdrawal from psychiatric drugs. We cannot advise you on other drugs, you'll have to talk to your doctor about that -- and any adverse effects you get from them or other psychiatric treatment. We cannot advise you further.

i understand.

 

i have one withdrawal related question though.

 

i dont understand if seroquel makes things worse or not. I was a mess before taking it so no way of knowing if it makes things worse. I would need to try lowering the dose to see if it reduces akathisia.

 

i have taken seroquel for 50 days now. How fast would be ok to taper it down?

[rapunzel2]

19 hours ago, Rosetta said:

I’m so sorry that you are struggling with aka, Rapunzel.  I have no advice, but I’m thinking of you.  I know that doesn’t help much.  Hold on.  

thank you. Have you had akathisia and how did it go away?

[Altostrata]

@rapunzel2 you already know how to taper.

 

I am sorry you are getting adverse reactions from trying new drugs. We cannot get you straightened out every time you do this. You need to speak to your prescribing physicians.

 

When I say we cannot help you further, what I mean is we cannot help you further. No more questions.