Big Meals

[Skyler]

Hi all... Lexi and I are trying to figure out why her heart starts pounding and her BP spikes around 7PM. Her Ativan doses are evenly dispersed throughout the day, so isn't interdose withdrawal, and she takes no other meds other than PRN clonodne after the BP elevates.  Supplements are limited to Vitamin C, Omega 3, and Magnesium sips.

 

The only independent variable I can identify is her big dinner.  To quote Lexi:  "I really do not eat during the day, like regular breakfast lunch etc. Instead I have a banana or two, plums, grapes, and then dinner"... so her body is getting quite a load all at once.  Could this be causing her symptoms to escalate in the early evening?  Her system is exquisitely sensitive to any changes.

 

Thoughts?

[Meimeiquest]

This is just brainstorming...symptoms sound like sympathetic reaction in the autonomic nervous system. Maybe a food allergy or other gut health problem? Any GI symptoms? Gluten is of course the first thing that comes to my mind. She is probably eating some foods that she doesn't at other times. I am just shooting off here...

[Marie]

I'm only speaking from my individual experience regarding eating and BP. I have noticed that eating a certain amount of food at the end of the day, at dinnertime, has often given me a feeling of a rise in BP although I do not have a monitor to measure this.

 

And higher carbohydrate foods like bread, and sugar type foods at that time also cause the problem. I'm have been in the habit, moreso in the past, of "eat dessert first," so that would definitely do it for me. But I have also found that even eating lightly (which I ordinarily do), if accompanied by a dessert after about 5 PM would cause those spikes. And I've also found that cake seems to be "worse" for me than ice cream or pudding.

 

I do not like the feeling of being "full" so I do not eat a lot, but that sugar will definitely do it for me as far as a feeling of a BP spike.

 

I just speculate that it's the time of day, my body's winding down, and then I throw high intensity carbs at it, and it has to rev up to handle this.

 

It surely is the opposite of eating during the day at an earlier time and feeling the need to "doze off" which seems to be the body mobilizing other systems with the heart in a more balanced way to digest the food.

 

Marie

[Meimeiquest]

Another random idea, based on how very fragile I have been with my benzo since stopping an AD (and also with BP spike) without reducing the dose at all. I think Lexi you've cut a tiny bit, right? Would that be affecting you at 7 p.m.?

[Skyler]

Hi Meim... Lexi recently evened out her doses and it seems we went too fast.. but now she has Sx that worsen significantly after dinner.. the escalation goes until the early morning hours.  Earlier this week it was so severe she ended up in the ER.. she was scared because of the increase in BP.  The Sx she had seem to be caused by WD, and the ER said all her tests were normal.. but the question remains.  If the dosing is balanced all thru the day, why would the Sx increase significantly after dinner.  I like the suggestions you and Marie gave on sugar and Gluten.. there may be something there.

 

One thought.. Lexi could have a disposition toward a gluten intolerance, or sugar overload that is worsened by WD.

 

Skyler

[GiaK]

digestion releases histamine...if I eat a large meal I get a histamine rush which causes heart palps etc...by necessity I eat very small meals frequently to minimize the histamine rush...

 

it's possible she's histamine sensitive or some other process from digestion is causing it...in any case, digestion takes up a lot of energy and could be causing upset for any number of reasons...and it would make sense to try eating smaller more frequent meals. 

 

it's wise to eliminate gluten  (at the very least on a trial basis to see if it helps)  as long as we're symptomatic as well...it's an exacerbating factor for so many people....ditto with a few other foods. 

[Meimeiquest]

I do it at sort of random times, even taking a beta blocker now, although it makes it less severe. Hypertension was a sudden new thing for me, I'm almost positive it is related to the AD withdrawal or benzo weirdness. But the things that can trigger withdrawal symptoms seem to be endless. I hope you both can figure it out very soon.

[lexicon]

I am most grateful Sky, Marie, Mei, Gia, for trying to help me make some sense of my

predicament.

I am a vegetarian, so no meats in my diet, also no breads, sweets, etc.

Dinner is usually fish, a half a baked potato, or gluten free rice, and some

greens.

 

The uptick in symptoms seem to start abruptly, with head pressure and unsteadiness.

I loose the ability to formulate words, because maybe I sense what is coming ..

Then I have the

heavy heart beats which frighten me, I feel the BP climbing mainly because it

causes dizziness, crawling sensations beneath the skin,

and a feeling of being ill.

I am already debilitated by these symptoms, so this uptick adds to the overall

discomfort and fright.

 

Also, there is a feeling of dread, along with symptoms prior to dosing, as well as afterwards. I get severe depression and crying. During the night, I am aware that

the symptoms are still with me ..But I try to ignore them ..

 

Mei, Yes maybe a combination of evening the doses and cut have contributed to this problem. I do feel it is WD related ..But I cannot explain why the uptick at that time ..Maybe eating has to do with it somehow also, complicating the situation.

No GI symptoms, but my appetite has changed and gone for the most part.

 

I feel lost with this, So I appreciate your efforts to make some sense of it ..

Love, Lexi

[lexicon]

Thank you for everyone's thoughts, I will try the more frequent meals through the

day ..Hopefully this will bring some comfort and peace.

I will also search for a histamine thread to educate myself ..

Thank you Gia.

[GiaK]

you know I always get worse at night...always...and it used to be much much worse...I think it's just that we're exhausted as the day ends...that is very probably enough to explain it...

 

for me it used to be insane how much worse I got...and it's gotten better...but it's not stopped...

 

that is a simple and very possibly enough of an explanation...being sick like this is exhausting and the end of the day you just start feeling it...

 

that doesn't mean that there might not be compounding factors...there always are those it seems too...

 

not sure why I didn't' think about this simple fact before, because certainly all my autonomic symptoms have always gotten worse at night.

[Skyler]

Thanks for your input Gia.. I've been stymied.

[Altostrata]

Not really eating during the day is not a good idea. It puts a lot of stress on the blood sugar cycle.

 

Especially when your system is sensitized, you don't want big swings in blood sugar, not too high or too low.

 

Lexy is experiencing low blood sugar during the day and then a huge stress on digestion and metabolism at night.

 

She needs to space out her calorie intake, protein, and complex carbs throughout the day and stop relying on simple carbs alone.

 

Eating frequent small meals is much healthier than not really eating until the evening.

[Barbarannamated]

This discussion is interesting.... I have always felt much better as the day goes on and into night, specifically after 6pm. I recall the 6pm shift being associated with cortisol (low function but normalizing late day). For several months, I got an intense hot flash at 6-7pm, not associated with menopause.

 

Is this a new onset or recently intensified symptom?

 

Just thought I'd mention in brainstorming fashion. I hope you figure it out soon.

[Skyler]

Hi all.. Lexi's native language is Greek and this proved a challenge when she learned the ins and out of taking 5 even Ativan doses, liquid tapering, and now using a scale. Also, when her WD Symptoms intensify it's difficult for her to express what she thinks. So I am posting, (with her permission), words she used in a PM to me.

 

"The "Big Meals" thread was wonderful ..

It was so nice to see people coming forth with an opinion.

Today I am struggling with my brain ..It feels dead ..I struggle to put a sentence together, I had all these thoughts to write, and one by one gone ..

........Only my children speak the language because I taught them when little.I learned English through them studying with them, and doing homework.. :)We traded ..They taught me English, I taught them Greek .."

 

Barb... Lexi can clarify here.. but if I recall correctly, she has had a problem with her BP and heart rate in the past, but WD seems to have made it worse.  I'm not sure how the evening meal has played into this, but since Lexi 're-evened' (yep, this was the second time) out her doses 2 weeks ago, the elevated BP and pounding pulse has been more anxiety provoking.

[Meimeiquest]

I wonder if there is a need to move into "acceptance mode." First thought is that clonopine is virtually a psych drug, so as needed dosing may be problematic, it is off-label dosing. Usual dosing for hypertension is twice daily for immediate release, nightly for extended release. I think it might be better to take it daily before the symptoms start, but I surely am not qualified to make that call. It will need to be tapered when this is all over. I am going through the same thing with a beta-blocker. I will try to write more when I can think better. Once again...I am just chattering, but it's because I am concerned for you Lexi!

[Altostrata]

Lexi's low blood sugar late in the day no doubt contributes greatly to an increase in symptoms. The body releases adrenaline, an anxiety hormone, in response to low blood sugar.

 

This would be our member Lexicon, correct?

[Marie]

It seems that there are many factors in this "problem." There is the one of blood glucose and trying to keep it as even as possible throughout the day, which can be a challenge for the "average" person who has never taken any of these meds and is not diabetic. So I suggest, as others have, the 3 smaller meals, balanced with the proper amount of complex carbs, fats, and protein and plenty of water.

 

And I have recounted my "adventures" with sweets, and I too, find that I must be very careful with them now as I get older, and I'm sure my benzo issues play a big part.

 

As far as language issues, there is no doubt that it too can make for confusion when talking about these medication issues, benzos, ADs or any other one. I, too, have had a slight language issue as my dad came from Ireland, and spoke with a pronounced Irish accent that I and my brothers also spoke with as children. We often found we were not understood, and we often did not understand what others were saying to us. We did overcome this with time, but surely anyone here can see that the issues of benzos and tapering and methods can be complex for anyone under the best of circumstances, let alone if there is even the tiniest question of language.

 

And I might also add that some of us just will have a harder time understanding what a benzo is, what and why we dose the way we do, what is withdrawl and tapering, the various methods of tapering, and every aspect of the subject. I know I didn't even realize what kind of drug I was taking initially nor what it could do much less understand all these other aspects. I actually don't think my doctor got it either. The process could certainly feel like a PHD program for many people. And then when the AD CT is considered, that further complicates the picture.

 

Then there is the "dose evening up" which has happened twice now from what I read. And it has also been done "all at once" if my understanding is correct. Well, surely these are changes to what the brain is used to, changes in timing and in amounts, and considered much like a cut, and will precipitate withdrawl like sx possibly so perhaps slower is better. And I speculate that the more doses involved, the longer it may take to even them up.

 

I do think this depends on the person as I have seen (mostly on BB, but also on BDR) where folks try to do this with just going from 2 doses to 3, and evening up the doses while doing so, and experience great upset while others do it seamlessly. It was suggested that I try going from 2 doses to 3 per day, here and by someone on BB, and I did do it for 2 days, taking 1 mg every 8 hours, but i was immediately uncomfortable as it felt like I experienced withdrawl sx soon after taking the 1st 1 mg of the day, and then waiting for the 2nd 8 hours later, and the 3rd 1 mg 8 hours after that. So I gave it up for this time, as I knew this was a change or considered a cut by my brain, requiring more time to do and for my brain to get used to, and I did not have I/W, so it wasn't necessary. But I think it is illustrative how these seemingly simple changes can bring on uncomfortable sx.

 

Well, I dont know if Lexi has experienced BP problems in the past or not, but if I look at her signature since 6/22, her doses were evened up "all at once" (if I understand correctly), she cut .125 mgs from one dose, tried a compounded liquid that caused trouble, went back to pills again, cut .0625 mgs from another dose, and now the doses have been evened up again "all at once" (if I understand correctly). That's 6 changes that have happened in less than 4 months, and I'm not considering the AD CT which took place 10 months ago.

 

I do wonder if this constitutes too many changes over too short a period for the brain to adjust to, and I do think that blood sugar adjustments could help, but I know rapid changes happened to me in the recent past, and I didn't feel it, but itbfinally had a cumulative effect, and I could really feel it, and now I am holding for a good while.

 

Just adding my own experiences here, my thoughts, and how it could relate to Lexi's current situation.

 

Marie

[Marie]

And as far as the clonidine, I have an Rx for it at .1 mg 3 times per day. But it is what I consider a "brain med" in some ways, and is habituating, so I use it PRN very judiciously.

 

If used regularly it will require a taper as it lower BP and quiet racing heart and palpitations, but if used regularly, will precipate w/ds and BP will go up once one tries to stop.

 

It is a good drug for me PRN as I find so far 1/2 of a .1 mg tab will settle things down, while a full tab will put me to sleep.

 

But I am very careful with this as I just don't want to taper more drugs, nor be asleep a lot of the time, so it's a drug of last resort for me. I do think that perhaps beta blockers are better, and I read they can also be used PRN.

 

Marie

[Skyler]

This would be our member Lexicon, correct?

 

Yes Alto... Lexi going to stick her neck out and try posting for herself... AHEM. 

 

As far as language issues, there is no doubt that it too can make for confusion when talking about these medication issues, benzos, ADs or any other one. I, too, have had a slight language issue as my dad came from Ireland, and spoke with a pronounced Irish accent that I and my brothers also spoke with as children. 

And I might also add that some of us just will have a harder time understanding what a benzo is, what and why we dose the way we do, what is withdrawl and tapering, the various methods of tapering, and every aspect of the subject. I know I didn't even realize what kind of drug I was taking initially nor what it could do much less understand all these other aspects. I actually don't think my doctor got it either. The process could certainly feel like a PHD program for many people. And then when the AD CT is considered, that further complicates the picture.Then there is the "dose evening up" which has happened twice now from what I read. And it has also been done "all at once" if my understanding is correct. Well, surely these are changes to what the brain is used to, changes in timing and in amounts, and considered much like a cut, and will precipitate withdrawl like sx possibly so perhaps slower is better. And I speculate that the more doses involved, the longer it may take to even them up.Well, I dont know if Lexi has experienced BP problems in the past or not, but if I look at her signature since 6/22, her doses were evened up "all at once" (if I understand correctly), she cut .125 mgs from one dose, tried a compounded liquid that caused trouble, went back to pills again, cut .0625 mgs from another dose, and now the doses have been evened up again "all at once" (if I understand correctly). That's 6 changes that have happened in less than 4 months, and I'm not considering the AD CT which took place 10 months ago.

 

Hi Marie.. the language issue can be a hazard. I feel for anyone posting on this web site for whom English is not the first language. All the information that has to be assimilated to understand the process.  Wow.

 

The first evening up.. which was MUCH bigger, went at a glacial pace and took more than a month.  The second looked to be no more than re-tweaking the first.. just making up for one or two shallow cuts.. I'm still uncertain as to whether this caused the present uptick....  Lexi has a good friend who is using the scale but the medication is being prepared with dry cuts, a process I don't really understand. I've never used a scale to taper. The math has been triple checked, so the total mgs. a day should be comparable to what it was before. But there are so many small variables that could play a role.. 

 

The compounding liquid did not work.. at the time we didn't know Gene would be able to work the scale, so the liquid seemed the only option.. thankfully the scale seems to be a viable alternative. (I think)

 

Lexi.. it's time for you to speak for yourself!

[Altostrata]

None of this explains Lexi's irregular eating habits, which are Lexi's choice and up to her to change.

[Skyler]

None of this explains Lexi's irregular eating habits, which are Lexi's choice and up to her to change.

 

I agree... I was responding to Marie. Lexi is planning to have several small balanced meals a day, starting today I think.  I did not comment on this as I was hoping Lexi would chime in.

[lexicon]

First, I would like to say thank you.

I am grateful for all the suggestions and thoughts, in trying to figure out

what could be triggering my spike in symptoms and BP.

 

I started already to alter my eating habits ..

Hopefully this change will fix my problem.

 

I am appreciative of this wonderful site, and the caring people in it ..

Thank you, to each and everyone ..

 

Namaste ..Lexi

[Meimeiquest]

Lexi, I am so impressed...I knew that you were from a Greek heritage, but no idea you learned English as an adult! Very impressed!!! Really hope you feel better soon. Please post if you don't!

[lexicon]

It is comforting to see you mei ..You are such a sweet and kind heart ..

Thank you, that is a wonderful compliment ..My children are proud of me,

I am delighted that you agree with them ..

Mei I am struggling today, but hoping that tomorrow may be better.

I will post as to any progress as you suggest.

You are close to heart,

Lexi

[areyouthere]

Lexi's low blood sugar late in the day no doubt contributes greatly to an increase in symptoms. The body releases adrenaline, an anxiety hormone, in response to low blood sugar.

 

This would be our member Lexicon, correct?

Yes Alto... that is correct. 

 

 

Lexi... is there any particular reason why you have been eating a large meal so late in the day? Is it something that you have done all of your life or are there other reasons? Just curious. RU

[lexicon]

Hi RU,

It actually is not a big meal ..Usually a cup of rice, or a half of a baked potato, and a small fish portion, or a cup of pasta and greens.

I think compared to what I eat during the day, it could be considered a big dinner.

I also have some fruit after dinner, a plum, or a handful of grapes.

What you think?

I hope your tapering is moving along RU.

Thinking of you, and wishing you well.

Lexicon

[areyouthere]

OK. That's interesting Lexi. Thanks for being specific.  For those ( myself included) who were thinking gluten may be the problem, it sounds like you don't eat much for corn or wheat intense foods ( gluten). Potatoes and rice are great alternatives to gluten: they are a good source of carbohydrates which we need for energy.  Lentils are also a good source. 

 

I wonder if you might consider eating another small helping of the foods you mentioned ( potatoes, rice etc) earlier in the day? Carbohydrates are made up of long chains of sugar and when your body digests carbohydrates sugar is slowly and steadily released into your bloodstream giving you a constant and even source of energy for your daily activities and also keeping your blood sugar levels more steady.

 

Just an idea.

 

My taper is going well. Those pesky headaches still show up sometimes. Like you I continue to try to figure out why including paying attention to what I eat. 

 

I just continue to hold. I hope you feel better soon. I am glad that you eat healthy foods... 

 

RU

[Marie]

Well,

 

For what it's worth, I'll just say that my eating habits are far from stellar. It's always a goal, I believe, for people to eat healthfully, if they can and care to do so, and know how.

 

And I do care, but this klonopin is not the most motivating drug, and I'm often not even hungry. Consequently, my previous really almost gourmet type vegetarian cooking has really taken a nosedive. But I'm aware and knowledgeable about how to do it, so I often find myself literally "forcing myself" to cook the healthy way I have for years.

 

But I can surely understand how someone would lack an appetite during the day and have the hunger not even "hit" till evening.

 

Well, Lexis "big meals" don't sound so big to me, but perhaps it's all relative as I am 5' 10" tall, and that is a mouthful for me when i do get an appetite.

 

Anyway, Lexi, I'm glad you're already taking steps to keep your blood sugar more even throughout the day.

 

Marie

[Altostrata]

Lexi, it sounds to me like you are not getting enough protein, not to mention calories to maintain blood sugar.

 

Oatmeal in the morning with fruit, split pea soup or lentil soup for lunch, and meat and vegetables for dinner would be good ways to maintain blood sugar throughout the day. You need to get more leafy green vegetables, too.

[lexicon]

Thank you Alto,

 

Today, I will be making a wonderful lentil soup ..

Greek style, with lots of garlic, spinach, spring onion, virgin olive oil,

grated carrot, bay leaf ..yummy ..

 

I am grateful for your suggestions, and your care.

May God keep you safe and healthy.

 

Lexicon

[Marie]

Lexi,

 

Way to go with that vegetarian cooking. Sounds like you really know your way around the kitchen there.

 

I also make the split pea that Alto mentioned. I buy the yellow and green split peas and it's quite good.

 

I also like the garbanzo and black beans. Well, my husband is American Mexican, raised on pinto beans and rice, so he likes all this too.

 

Now, I just have to keep "pushing myself" past this de-motivating K.

 

Marie

[areyouthere]

I'm sure that you are familiar with tahini... a great source of protein & the base for some pretty great humus recipes to dip your fruits and veggies in. Your lentil soup sounds fabulous!!! I love lentils. 

 

Do you eat fish Lexi? How about eggs? Both great sources of protein & fish ( fatty fish like salmon) is high in good oils.

 

For you Lexi and everyone else... I find this site interesting. The world's healthiest foods!!!

[Skyler]

I'm sure that you are familiar with tahini... 

 

For you Lexi and everyone else... I find this site interesting. The world's healthiest foods!!!

 

I LOVE Tahini! And nut butters!!

 

Nice site RU.  Thanks...

[lexicon]

What a wonderful site RU!! Thank you for sharing it ..

I do love Tahini and humus, and use them a lot ..

Also, I love fish especially salmon, and have it several times a week ..

Thank you RU, I am grateful for your thoughts, for your help, and care.

You are terrific

Lexi

[EagleWolf]

Hi Lexi,

 

Girl you need to eat more to stabilise your blood sugars!  5 small meals a day. Sounds to me like you become hypoglycaemic during the day and then have an insulin surge/spurt with your dinner.  Don't believe that all carbohydrates are bad.  That is a load of hogs wash.  There are plenty of excellent low GI carbohydrates which will not only regulate your BSL's, but also assist in repairing your GI tract. 

 

I looked at what you have for dinner and it is pretty miniscule, try adding in a decent serving of high GI carbs and see what happens, I will almost bet you will feel better within 30-60 minutes.  Good carbs bathe the brain in serotonin, there are thousands of clinical and anecdotal articles online to support this.

 

My first husband was an insulin dependant diabetic from age 14 to 43, he required 3 needles a day, so I do have a very thorough knowledge on this subject, having managed many hypos, hypers and a couple of diabetic induced comas.

 

Lack of carbs can result in spiking BP, heart palps, dizziness and a whole plethora of other symptoms.  At this point, I don't think you have anything to lose - why not try eating 5 small meals a day with your dinner containing good carbs to sustain you through the night.  The absolute best carb is sweet potato, it can actually stave off pre diabetes when eaten in large quantities.  Again, you can google for proof.

 

As you know, I am now insulin resistant thanks to weight gain from Avanza.  I am following a very strict low GI diet.  I have found that if I do not 'carb load' in the evening, I get all the symptoms you have.

 

Just my experience.

 

Eagle x 

[Barbarannamated]

This statement from post above is concerning to me:

 

"Good carbs bathe the brain in serotonin, there are thousands of clinical and anecdotal articles online to support this.".

 

Is it not flooding our brains in serotonin (or GABA or...) that landed us in this horrible position?

 

I mean no disrespect to you, Eaglewolf. I believe we have to exercise caution with statements that ascribe healing properties to any single neurotransmitter or support the "chemical imbalance theory" in any way.