Jump to content

Recommended Posts

JanCarol

jancarol-undiagnosed-off-all-bipolar-drugs

 

G'day folks!  I've only just arrived, I've read a few threads here, but not had much to say.

 

I've been lucky, really.  Because I'm not heavily medicated and never have been - I've fought that every step of the way.

 

Likewise, I've never been hospitalized or jailed - I've fought against that every step of the way.

 

It started in my 20's when Doc's decided that my depression would clear up better with a bit of Prozac.  Just to help me "over the bump" until I had frank hallucinations, watching Bigfoot amble about in traffic and around town.  Time to get off the Prozac.  

 

So I go off, and persist in an empty marriage with unfulfilling work. So the Doc's (I can't even remember which Doctors did this, it's strange because I was in a new town in Indiana, and you'd think I"d remember going to the clinic or Doc's office, but oh well) prescribe Zooloft.  I get jittery and palpitations, so I go off again.

 

Over the next 10 years, from about 25-35, I'm prescribed various antidepressants, and most of them fail.  The only one to stick was Wellbutrin, but I get ahead of myself.

 

So after these 3 month each infusions of brain chemical bursts, for 10 years, is it any wonder that when the marriage fell apart in 1995 I went full blown, psychotic mad manic?  At the time I described it as if a weight that I had held on my shoulders for years and years was suddenly pulled away and I came unstuck.  I was talking to bees (and making contracts with them), stalking potential lovers, stripping my clothes off in the woods so as to be "invisible," paranoid that the lights in my windows were UFO's.

 

This was not treated by medical doctors as mania.  Nor was it treated as psychosis at any time:  because here is the key - even though I was mad and manic, I was LUCID.  I could tell you, "This just isn't right, I need to get help."  Ergo, I escaped hospitalization, and the overdrugging that happens there.  This was treated with yet another antidepressant (Wellbutrin?) and antianxiety meds (likely Xanax).  

 

I met a yoga guru at about that time, and he "cleaned me up" and stabilized me but that was another abusive relationship - because now I "owed him" my life.

 

I was on Wellbutrin for 3 years after this, but the depression just kept sinking deeper and deeper as I had sold my soul to this yogi.  When I told the yogi, finally, to go away, that I would be happier without him telling me "who to be," and "how to be it," I got marginally better.

 

At the same time I met my birthfamily, Birth Mom, birth aunt, a sister and 2 brothers.  When I got the family history and heard about great-grandma hanging in the shower, and grandma finding her, and the resultant paranoia about menopause this caused....when I heard about the uncles who were chameleons and bigamists....I thought, well.  Maybe I am "manic depressive" or "bipolar."

 

So again:  with lucidity and clarity I presented myself to the hospital charity system for treatment.     to be continued.......

 

Edited by ChessieCat

Share this post


Link to post
JanCarol

The hospital charity system gave me a counselor - one I had previously experienced in private, and she is excellent, the best counselor I've had in my many years "on the couch."  And they referred me to a nurse practitioner.  I think she was called DeDe, a battle axe of a woman who was only going to prescribe by the book.  She wanted me on the therapeutic dose of depakote right away, because "that's what you do" for bipolars.  But I'd never hurt myself, I'd never hurt others, I'd never been hospitalized, and I was still working 3/4 time at that time, working towards getting more freelance style of work.

 

So I fought her.  And when I fought her - this will sound familiar to many of you - she wanted to add antipsychotics because "see how agitated you are?"

 

I fired her.  I requested they send me to a real psychiatrist who would not overdope me, because I needed to work to support my house, eat, pay bills - you know.  Real life stuff.  (at this time, I pursued disability, but because I had a college degree and was "lucid" I would never qualify for it, because even if I could only work 10 hours a week, I could work those 10 hours at "a high level of functioning."  Never mind that I spent a lot of time melted down on the couch, working up energy to go to the next assignment:  I was not disabled)

 

Amazingly, the hospital system "Adult Psych Services" complied and sent me to Dr. Joel.  He was a gentle soft spoken man who understood my need to go off depakote, and be minimally medicated.  As far as I know, after a year on depakote, I just went off it.  No withdrawal, no taper.  He put me on a 1/2 dose of effexor (sorry, too long ago to remember specifics) and a tiny amount of Avanza/Remeron/mirtazapine for sleep at night.  I functioned on this with no or few adjustments for 3 years?  5?

 

It was during this time of stability that I met my husband to be.  Only one little catch:  he was from Australia. And he worked at a high level in IT database management - but had no degree, so he would never get a job in the USA, and especially not in my hometown, where IT specialists were a dime a dozen.  (university town)  So after 2 years of courting, we determined after 9-11 that I would leave my homeland, my hometown, my community, and my Adult Psych Services behind and move to Australia to marry him.  After 9-11 I felt like an alien anyway, so much chest banging and flag waving, and I was just trying to make a go of it, keep my house, keep my car, & keep my mind.

 

I need to emphasize again what a great community I had.  There were 3 of us living in close proximity, and one nite D would have a bonfire, and we'd all go over and sit around the fire and sing and talk.  Or C would come home for the weekend and I would fire up the grill with some steaks and we'd all go over to his place and watch movies or play games.  Then the 3 of us would go camping at "Festivals" - basically nature / earth based festivals where we might dance around fires, or drum, or tell stories, or have ritual events for growth and healing.  I sadly miss this community - there is stuff here in Australia, but it is not "home."  When people came to our festivals, I often worked gate, and the standard greeting was:  "Welcome Home."  I'm still in touch with them, but I no longer get the direct experience of these events.

 

So I moved to Australia, where I was shocked to find that "free medical care" really means "free medical care."  With a referral from a GP,. I could go to any Psychiatrist I wanted & get a medical rebate on it.  O.M.G.!!!  And then, a couple of years later, with a referral from a Psychiatrist, I could see any Psychologist I wanted, and get a rebate.  Up to 12 times a year!  (and private health care - which is significantly cheaper than in the USA - 1/5 the cost - would pick up any visits not covered by "Medicare.")

 

So I was a stranger in town - how to know who is good or not?  Fortunately, hubby's sister is a PhD Psychologist, and she could make recommendations for both psychologist and psychiatrist.  I ended up with Alison, a wise, soft spoken psychologist who is creative, flexible, and makes excellent suggestions for implementation - plans of action.  For my psychiatrist I ended up with KT, a zen, still, meditating, artful prescriber.  

 

EXCEPT:  the first thing KT did was change my meds.  Only she did something that nobody had ever done before:  taper and cross taper.  She changed my levels from Effexor slowly, as she brought up my lithium levels.

 

My doctor back in Indiana is also my best friend.  SHE WAS SHOCKED that I was being put on lithium, because it is toxic, and has such a "narrow therapeutic window."  i.e., the difference between therapeutic and toxic is very small.  I told her that in every country of the world, where we don't have so many drug choices as in the USA, lithium is the first port of call for "bipolar"

 

So Dr. KT left me on mirtazapine, and brought up the lithium.  She got me up to my current 900 mg of lithium a day.  With that, I was also on an old tricyclic, Dothiepen/Dothep.  to be continued.......

Share this post


Link to post
JanCarol

By the way, while I was under Dr. Joel's care, I was physically fit, and a corporate fitness counselor as one of my part time contracts.  This will come in to play, later.

 

And also, while under Dr. Joel's care, I had the "opportunity" to get paid $3000 to participate in a Lilly trial of Zyprexa, to see if it interacts with depakote, which was the most common mood stabilizer in the States at the time.  A few short drives to Indianapolis, a few clinical visits, and then a 3 day stint in their Lilly's teaching hospital, and I'd get paid.  I was happy to hear that I got the placebo, especially when I later heard of Zyprexa's indictment of metabolic disorder, which I would later get.  On lithium.  Which isn't supposed to give you metabolic disorder.......

 

to be continued.

Share this post


Link to post
Petunia

Hi JanCarol,

Welcome to our forum and thank you for sharing your story, it sounds like you have been through a lot.  I'm looking forward to reading the next part of your introduction.

 

How are you feeling now and have you had any withdrawal symptoms after your first cut of Reboxetine?  I had to search elsewhere to find information on what that was, its not approved for use in the US.  I found out its a norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor      and from what I read, doesn't seem to be a particularly effective medication for depression.

 

Reducing by 10% every 4 weeks is what we usually recommend here, which seems like what you have been doing, so that is good.  We also usually recommend only tapering one drug at a time,which you are also doing :)

 

Someone else here with more experience may have other suggestions though. (Regarding Reboxetine)

 

You will find a lot of friendly help and support here.

 

Petu.

Share this post


Link to post
JanCarol

After 9 years of hearing my Indiana friend/doctor's voice "lithium is a toxin," over and over in my head, I realized that I had lost a lot with this last, simple medication.  

 

Now some of this may be due to what the yogi did to my head.  The mind games he played about Personality vs. Self vs. God vs. Truth that I'm not quite ready to do yet.  Effectively what it did was, it took away my religion, my beliefs, my spirituality, and replaced it with him.  When he was gone, that place inside of me, the God Hole, was empty.  No more beliefs.

 

And I had moved to Australia, where I knew nobody, and no longer had my home and community around me.

 

So I was down, and slow, and even stupid in the head, with no passion, no caring, no give-a-yhit-itude for anything.  Not art, not even really music, maybe some computer games, but they were just things to do until hubby got home.  No work, and no fitness for work in this country, since I have severe delay cycle sleep, and Australia is a daytime country.  24 hour anything is practically unheard of here.

 

But after 9 years of lithium, I wanted off.  Dr. KT is better than many, she's very good about tapering.  But her idea of a taper was 25%.  I think it was fine, but I accidentally forgot about it one time I filled my trays, and put it back up to 900mg again.  By accident.  I did get off the dothiepen at that time.

 

Sometime after that, I got really depressed.  Heavily depressed, like, I wasn't worth the air I was breathing, the toilet paper I was consuming, I was a burden to hubby, and perhaps I should end it all.  I even had a plan.  THOUGH - I know my lucid history well enough to know this specter.  I have had long talks with Suicide, and have never tried.  It's more of a philosophical thing, integrated into my personality.  And maybe, it is possible, maybe there is truth to what Suicide says, that I'm not worth it.  But that doesn't mean I'm jumping off a bridge anytime soon.

 

Soooooooooo  now she's put me on Reboxetine, which nobody here knows anything about.  It's my understanding it is not available to the USA, and I'm having difficulty finding out anything about it.  And now, she will not approve any removal of any meds, due to medical liability.  The last thing she said to me is, "I can't make you take them." Which I think was her way of saying, go ahead anyway.

 

My story is sooooo much tamer, so much milder than anyone else I've read here.  But I want off of the stuff, for better or for worse.  I'm unhappy enough on it, that I may as well not take toxins to be this unhappy.  I can be this depressed without taking anything at all.

 

So I've started with the first 10% of Reboxetine, down to 3.6 mg.  And it's going well.  I'm not as nervous about the Reboxetine, since I've only been on it for 7 months, so my next taper will be to 3 mg, for ease of cutting.

 

I am however, terrified about withdrawing from Lithium.  I hear that I am more likely to have a manic episode upon withdrawal, and I'm terrified of that.  I do have access to compound pharmacies, but I need a Doctor's prescription for the tapers, which means more visits to Dr. KT - and that's IF she will do it.  She maybe won't.  Then I'll have to find another practitioner who will, because I need more precision with the lithium taper.  And I don't know how to get the scripts I need.  I will try my GP next.  I've already lost my thyroid in all of this.  Maybe I would've lost it anyway, but still.  

 

I don't quite have the confidence to tincture the lithium up, but will consider it if I can get the information.

 

But I have time.  I'll be tapering reboxetine for several months to come, and I'm going to taper off my lifelong antihistamines in the process, as I understand they can interfere with my toxin levels, cleanliness, and healthiness......so it won't be until next March at the soonest, or even later if I have to slow my taper down on the Reboxetine.

 

All suggestions eagerly accepted as I read your stories.

 

Hello!  Glad to meet you! :)

 

JanCarol

Share this post


Link to post
JanCarol

Hi Petu, thank you!

 

I'm using Will Hall's "Harm reduction guide" - so I'm tapering at 3 weeks.  Again, I'm less worried about the Reboxetine than the eventual lithium taper.  For lithium it might be 4 weeks.  Or 6.

Maybe Dr. KT put me on Reboxetine because of its inefficacy against depression - to give me a stimulus that won't fire me off into manic (which, for some reason, is always scarier than depression, which is an old friend that visits regularly).

 

There was a woman who posted here, I was reading about her articles on polypharmacy and taking 6-7 years to come off it.  Corina? Marina?  Reboxetine was one of her meds, her docs had it shipped in from Europe!

 

I see that you are in Oz, too.  While I do find that the general medical attitudes here are more natural (take magnesium for pain, for example) in ways that it would never be in the US (take vicodin for pain), and I've only ever had one psych - I do have other friends on meds, and it seems they are just as virulent at prescribing stuff here, and very orthodox about following that DSM-X (for whatever number).  For all of her Zen and mindfulness leanings, Dr. KT is very orthodox, though on the conservative side of things, while other docs I hear about are WILDLY orthodox, whipping out the cocktails as if they had the Drug Reps on their coattails!

 

On a more fun note, I'm watching "Love and other Drugs," with Jake Gyllenhaal, and it's great to see them poke fun at this stuff, treating it lightly, while pointing out some very real things.

Share this post


Link to post
JanCarol

Oh!  You asked about feeling:  I am feeling much the same as I always do.  A bit numb, a bit dead, quite lethargic.

 

I do have a new passion, though!  (yay!  Jan's got a passion!) and that's the passion of GETTING OFF THE DRUGS. 

 

I guess that's a goal to work towards.  Especially if it can help me breathe, be active again.

Share this post


Link to post
JanCarol

Additionally, I've been talking about this with my psychiatrist Dr. KT, and my psychologist Alison, for around a year now.  And while Dr. KT is resistant to "Mad in America's" data (she said, "Meta-analyses, can be misleading") and extremely resistant to letting me off any of my meds, Dr.Alison has been coming round to my way of thinking.  She recently had a client OD on antidepressants and get driven into full blown manic, and now he has deep problems that he wouldn't have had if he hadn't been overprescribed.  And she said she was thinking about the things I've said all along, and she is willing to be a support to me - as long as I SELF REPORT honestly about manic.

 

Which, if I do get manic, I feel I need to go through it, maybe get an interim prescription for xanax or something (as Will Hall suggests) because I don't want to go to hospitals.  Psych hospitals here are MUCH NICER than in the USA, but it's not the hospital I'm afraid of now.  It's the drugs.  And if I go to hospital, they WILL drug me.  So I'm glad to have Alison's support.  I just wish she could prescribe!  :-P

Share this post


Link to post
Meimeiquest

I've been on lithium since 2006' and, like you, I have a strong family history of mental illness, especially bipolar. After much deliberation, I believe I really do have bipolar II, although I wish I knew exactly what that meant biologically.

 

Just like you have some time while you taper another drug, so do I. Here are some things I've been thinking about: Some people find lithium doesn't work as well if it is stopped and restarted. Am I willing to "take it off the table" of options by stopping it? Getting sick and making myself more vulnerable, and getting poly drugged in a hospital would make things much worse than they are now. I have read of people who stopped it and did well, but they all took exceptional care of themselves. Do I want to commit to "just taking care of myself?" Those people recommend a SLOW withdrawal. If I think I'm stable enough to not take lithium, I would have to be really stable and have a track record of accomplishing all the self-care while on the drug before I could go off. Psycheducation.org has a lot of information about non-med ways of treating bipolar (and meds). I'm reading about social rhythm therapy right now. It really is a dilemma. ..good luck to both of us!

Share this post


Link to post
Rhiannon

Just want to add, you might enjoy Peter Breggin's book Medication Madness, given your experiences on ADs.

 

I found it really validating, because I got pretty crazy and dysfunctional and delusional on psych drugs myself and it took me several years into tapering to begin to trust my own judgment and thinking again.

Share this post


Link to post
Altostrata

Welcome, JanCarol.

 

It sounds to me that, from the start, your nervous system didn't get along well with antidepressants. Some people find them overstimulating. This adverse effect is responsible for many misdiagnoses of bipolar disorder, particularly the wastebasket diagnosis bipolar II (can't be identified as bipolar I or depression or psychosis, so it must be bipolar II).

 

It also sounds like you got withdrawal symptoms -- "heavily depressed" -- from going abruptly off dothiepen and boggling your lithium dose. It's not unusual for doctors to misdiagnose this as some kind of psychiatric problem rather than another adverse reaction. What symptoms is reboxetine supposed to help in you?

 

There's a scandal around reboxetine, read http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/2010/11/30/the-antidepressant-reboxetine-a-headdesk-moment-in-science/

 

Even if you feel you must take lithium, minimizing it to the lowest effective dosage is best for your overall health. This can be accomplished by very gradual dosage reductions, such as 10% at a time, to make sure not to trigger mania, which even Dr. KT would understand.

Share this post


Link to post
JanCarol

Thank you meimeiquest, you will be a good partner in this journey.  I will not even be looking at the lithium (just research and consideration) until I'm done with the reboxetine, and with antihistamines (that I've been on since wee childhood)  Social rhythm looks interesting, I will look into it.  I did not know that leaving lithium makes it difficult to return to it.  But I was "controlled" for years without it.....so I have high hopes.  Sometime next year, of course.

 

Rhi, I've got Breggin's "Antidepressant" book (geez, that was $35 for the Kindle!) and his "Healing" book, but the one you mention isn't available for Kindle.  When I've read the ones I have, I'll consider getting it from ABE books, but shipping books to Australia is not very cost effective.

 

Altostrata, you are a godsend.  I don't know if I really am bipolar (family history) or if a latency was brought out through repeated hits of antidepressants!  Or was my experimentation with recreational pharmacy as a teenager a factor?  Bipolar 2 is what I was called first of (well, after years and years and years of depression)

 

The reboxetine was for depression and suicidal ideation.  I talked to Dr. KT today and it was good, I'll make a separate post for that.  With your patience, I would like to use this as a log so I can track symptoms and adjustments as they happen.  My 4 mg is only 1/2 the therapeutic dose, so Dr. KT is good about that.  I could tell I didn't want any increases in it though, that's for sure!  LOL from reading the article it looks like maybe she prescribed it as placebo, to see if she could get some response.

 

More about my discussion with Dr. KT, and my newer withdrawal symptoms in a moment.  Thank you all so much, it is so good to be heard, especially since I am such a mild voice in this room where so many are crying in agony, pain, and frustration.  Y'all have my empathy for your journeys.

Share this post


Link to post
JanCarol

OK, exciting news.  FIRST:  I had a FEELING last night.  Oh, it was a SAD feeling, it was a painful feeling, it was longing, desire, regret, all rolled up into a "what have I done?" shaped ball.  I cried a little, I let it loose in my chest, I pulled the threads of feeling out open and wide, and then I literally pitied myself to sleep.

 

When I awoke, I was fresh, the emotion was distant.  I had a feeling.  Maybe the first feeling in a year or more.  And I survived it in less than 12 hours. 

 

I'm not saying it won't come back.  Likely it will.  Other feelings will, too.  I'm expecting all kinds of feelings to visit, after all, they've been suppressed for at least 10 years, and maybe more, if you count the lighter drug therapies I received in the USA.

 

NEXT, I went to see Dr. KT today, with the intent of trying to bring her on board.  Of telling her that I'm doing this, and does she want to be in the loop or not?  

 

First we talked about statins & cholesterol.  This will come of more importance later, but, there was recently a controversial science program about cholesterol and statins.  A respectable program.  Imagine (you Americans) NOVA telling you that you don't need your statins and being alarmed about your cholesterol is not relevant to your heart disease, and that your statins might cause you to die from something else - for example - diabetes in women increase by 30-60% on statins (I guess depending on the drug).  Additionally, the show pointed out that drug companies lie to get their products on market, and screen people for effect before running the studies to get the best result for publication.  As if we didn't know - but here was a MAINSTREAM SCIENCE PROGRAM saying these things!  I contacted my doctor friend in the USA, sent her the videos, and she said, "Yes, in the UK, they are moving towards the inflammatory model of heart disease, and away from the cholesterol model, so it's becoming more mainstream."

 

This is relevant to you antidepressant peoples, too. Bear with me.

 

So Dr. KT and I talked about statins, which are other drugs I am tapering off of, too.  My GP started it, when I started complaining of side effects, I'm just taking it the rest of the way.  I'm using Red Yeast Rice (American, NOT Chinese), and Bergamot with Plant Sterols.  And I feel so much better.  KT talked about good cholesterol and "bad cholesterol" and we talked about saturated fats.  Maybe my coconut oil that I love so much isn't so good for me?  At least not according to Dr. KT and Dr. Ian Gawler, cancer survivor.  Sigh.  More to learn.  But if I find that these months of reducing my statins and eating coconut oil and butter and whole fat milk - and my cholesterol is the same - then what were the statins doing for me?  Dr. KT emphasized that my coconut oil would induce inflammation into the system and cause problems.  Ok.  More research.

 

But she also said this:  "I definitely believe in the inflammation theory of disease.  I believe that much depression is caused from inflammatory sources, like diet, stress, exercise, etc."

 

Something for y'all to think about as you struggle to heal through all the madness and brain chemicals that have been tampered with.

 

And that was my opening.  I said:  Speaking of reducing drugs......and I had a printout of Will Hall's page, with his book listed, and this website and beyondmeds.com written on it.  I wish I'd had the psychoeducation.org site to send her.  I showed her his guide, and explained that this is a support group, and she got a little miffed:  "Who is this guy?  He's not a doctor!  He'd not even a psychologist!  Just because he's had this experience and he wants to share it with others?"   I said, "He is one face in a movement, and I chose him for you because his Harm Reduction Guide is simple, quick, easy to read.  Then I showed her a blurb about Breggins' guide, and I said, "This guy IS a doctor, but he's rejected by mainstream medicine at this time, and his Med Withdrawal guide is a lot more complex and difficult to understand, but I'm reading it, too."  She settled down.

 

I could see by her face and her body language that I was stubborning her.  i.e., I'm gonna do this no matter what.  She whipped up my 12 year history with her, how I wasn't on lithium for an entire year here (I remember:  she wanted to taper me off my effexor and avanza first!).  I said, "I was not on mood stabilizers in the states."  She said, "You were on depakote!"  I said, for a year or two only, and I couldn't wait to get off of it!  So we back and forthed, to and fro'd about my history.  She didn't want me to do this.  She truly believes, in her peaceful zen mind, that I am a human who needs medication in order to have quality of life.

 

I said, maybe so, but how will I ever know?  I'm bringing you in the loop, do you want in the loop?  She said yes.  So next we talked about how quickly we med change.  I've only had a few med changes with her over the years, she knows how I hate tampering with med changes, and I think she truly doesn't believe they are helpful, either.  BUT:  When I present to her down, depressed, she wants to prescribe right away.  I'm going to suggest that, as Will Hall recommends, we wait - if, 2-3 months later I am still depressed - THEN we consider meds.  But I need to BE in the emotion first, to try and see the light on my own.  (that said, she has a point.  we're talking about 25 years of history here, and I've never really been dynamic since the prescribing began).

 

Then she talked about the taper.  "We taper every time, you last did a taper reduction in February, and see where it got you?  Suicidal ideation, depression, feelings of worthlessness, helplessness, hopelessness!"  Yes, I said, 2 things:  1.  we tapered too much too quickly, and 2. we re-prescribed too quickly, and I didn't get to move through the emotions.

 

TOO QUICKLY?  She said.  She is one of the most conservative docs around for nice, gentle, slow tapers.  But it is still not the 10% harm reduction taper.

 

10%?  How ever are you going to do that?  I said I shave the reboxetine.  She said to me that there could be different amounts of active medicine in different parts of the tablet - i.e., the active ingredient is not necessarily equally distributed through the tablet.  (she's good, I hadn't thought of that).  I said, I'm less worried about the Reboxetine, I've only been on it 7 months, and only 1/2 dose.  But it's practice for the Lithium.  She said, 10%, how are you going to do that?  I said, "We can get it from a compound pharmacy, I talked to one the other day!"  

 

You should've seen the look on her face then.  I knew that I had brought her on board against her initial instinct.

 

She is a very caring doctor, and she said at the end of the session:  I hope with all of my heart that this works for you, that you can do this.  But I've never seen anyone make the changes needed to make it work.

 

The changes we talked about for me is my new assignment.  I'm severely delayed cycle sleep (that's the social rhythms thing, eh, Meimeiquest?) so she said:  must get up 11a-noon.  Must take a walk in the sunlight for 15 minutes.  That's my first change from her.  She also has had me on NAC for awhile from the last taper attempt.

 

And we concluded with:  we still have months before we start the lithium taper because I also have to get rid of my antihistamines in there - based on the inflammation theory of disease - I've been on them since age 7.  And she breathed a sigh of relief and strongly agreed.

 

I think I have her on board.  Now to get out in that Australian sunshine and make a habit of it!  It won't be easy, I'm a bit of a vampire that way.  But it will likely be good for my complexion, too.

 

I hope I've given y'all some topics to think about for your own journeys.  If not, thank you for listening.

Share this post


Link to post
JanCarol

I'm having one withdrawal symptom.  In the past, I have, at random, had electric brain shocks from loud noises.  But those have been random and intermittent.

 

I'm having a similar phenomenon now, which is a comet streaking down, top to bottom, the far left side of my left eye.  If I am inside, it is like a light to my left has had a strobe flash.  When I'm where there is no man made light, it is like a comet streak.

 

I'm hoping this isn't a symptom of my statin withdrawal (i.e., I'm having a stroke) but that it is a symptom of Reboxetine withdrawal.  

 

Sheesh, I thought it was a minor drug.  I put in my journal (Moodscope.com) that it is not obtrusive, but nor is it entertaining.

 

Peace.

Share this post


Link to post
JanCarol

So after a few hours of this streaking comet on the side of my head:  this could be crazy making.

 

I'm not saying that it is, but it could be, if it persists.  I think I see: a bug flying, my hair flying, the cat moving, sparks, something falling from the ceiling.......

 

after about the 100th time it's not funny anymore and I am making a wish for sleeping well.

Share this post


Link to post
Meimeiquest

I kept seeing black figures in my peripheral vision while tapering Zyprexa. And talk about EMOTION and memories and memories. All just a distant memory (ha) now. I agree with what your dr. has said about lipids/cholesterol except the coconut oil. Whenever you read data about fats and meat from the U.S., you have to remember that our regular, commercial meat supply is grossly contaminated with chemicals, both what is on the grain, wrong food for cows, and what is given directly to the cattle.

 

I would encourage you to visit kellybroganmd.com. She is halfway through a little seminar series. She treats on the basis of the inflammation model and does not prescribe ADs at all. She mentioned that there are two case reports of bipolar II patients being able to go off lithium with a ketagenic (sp?) diet, and I read of at least one person who thinks you can get the same results with a low-carb diet eaten over 6 hrs, followed by 18 hrs. fasting. I guess you know you've been sick a long time when that sounds like hopeful news :)

 

Hang in there and enjoy the sunshine!

Share this post


Link to post
Altostrata

Depending on your age, JanCarol, that comet streak in your eye could be an age-related retinal flaw. I've had them off and on (currently off) for several years. See your ophthalmologist about that.

 

So Dr. KT is a general practitioner? Good to hear she grasps the general concept of tapering. Looks like she has something else to learn.

 

I do not subscribe to the inflammation theory of emotional distress. Illnesses can make people, quite understandably, feel down. The studies showing an association between inflammation and "depression" universally fail to distinguish whether illness (perhaps not even diagnosed) causes inflammation and "depression" is coincidental.

 

On the other hand, people with no inflammation at all can experience "depression."

 

The inflammation theory is another route whereby doctors can claim "depression" has a biological cause rather than emotions associated with life events, and that they can find a chemical cure addressing it.

 

On the third hand, there are a lot of people who are taking statins needlessly because of drug company propaganda and suffering the side effects for no good reason.

Share this post


Link to post
Meimeiquest

I, of course, don't know. Dr. Brogan believes that any stressor, including an emotional one, can induce inflammation. I wish this was not all so complicated!

Share this post


Link to post
JanCarol

Thank you Meimeiquest and AltoStrata.  Dr. KT is a psychiatrist.  The only reason we talked about statins is that she is the LEAST mainstream doc I have (other than my Dr. friend in the USA), so I let her know when I'm thinking a certain way, and see how "out there" I am.

 

Like coconut oil.  I read about how it's whatever chain of amino acids is highly digestible and actually supports artery health.  How coconut water is sterile with perfect electrolytes for human use, and has been substituted for IV solution in WW2 and natural disasters in the Pacific. My cat has a herpes of the eye that she has had as a kitten, and I worry that she will go blind.  The antibiotic creme from the vet will prevent secondary infection, but it will not prevent the outbreak.  The creme ran out on a weekend, so I thought I'd try coconut oil, which is antibacterial, antiviral and antifungal.  2 applications and the eye was better (24 hours).  Usually it takes 5 days on "traditional medicine."  So I'm thinking, how can coconut oil be bad for me?

 

Coupled with the fact that the runny oils, like canola and sunflower and safflower and corn, etc., have been treated and heated to rancid and then colored and scented to be palatable - and that's supposed to be BETTER for me?  Hmmm.  You're right MeiMei, it's CONFUSING!

 

So now I have Dr. Ian Gawler and Dr. KT to contend with.  And I don't discount that SOME depressions are caused by inflammation.  Stress causes inflammation and cortisol production.  She didn't insist that ***all*** depressions are caused by Inflammation, and her answer is not meds, but diet, lifestyle and exercise.  (and, in fact, nearly all the inflammation based docs I know are like this - i haven't met any chemical ones, because, you know, NSAIDS for example are inflammation causing in the long run!)  And she says that most people are not willing to make the changes they need to reduce the inflammation.   She said these lifestyle changes can only be made by very few people.  Kinda like cholesterol - but - I also know my Mom (my real mom, not my birthmom) had high cholesterol and ATE PERFECTLY only 15 grams of fat - good fat - per day.  And it didn't come down. She's still well at 84.

 

As for my eyes, Alto, you are right, I'm 51.  I may have some new floaters but I'm not sure.  The flashes are diminished after sleep, but still there.  My ophthalmologist?  I'm supposed to have one of those?  Well that's a whole new process.  I read where if new floaters are accompanied by flashes, it can mean retinal tears.  I had a friend who needed tons of surgery for those.  Egads.  I picked a fine time to quit sniffing glue ("Airplane.")

 

And MeiMei - the ketogenic diet.  Ain't easy.  I've been looking into it for my husband, who has prostate cancer.  At least you can eat fats!  It has helped all kinds of conditions, including bipolar, autism, and huge successes in allergies, asthma, endurance training sport performance, and weight loss.  Of course, it's not recommended for people with high cholesterol.  And it's not something that you can maintain for your entire life.  I think you go on it for a period of months, and then do a month a year for maintenance.  It's not unlike Atkins.  (and hubby would have to combine it with pressurized oxygen therapy to get results).

 

So going through all of this, can you imagine how I'm going to feel when hubby submits to the knife, or submits to the radiation or chemo - now that I'm so deeply losing faith in the medical INDUSTRY. ? ? ? ? 

 

Thanks for checking in today!

Share this post


Link to post
Meimeiquest

"I picked a fine time..." That was a lol moment, and so true for you with your husband and all. That could be the tag line for SA :)

Share this post


Link to post
Altostrata

Not to worry, the floaters and flashes are fairly common in aging eyes and retinas. They don't necessarily mean you will need surgery. Mine have calmed down altogether.

Share this post


Link to post
JanCarol

Altostrata, you were right on the money.  It is my retinas, but it is not tearing.  I saw someone today - just an Optometrist, but he had all this fancy gadgetry scopes & cameras & stuff & it was all paid for on our public health system.  Not tears, but gel detachment.  To my layperson's mind, it is like a strained or sprained ankle instead of a torn ligament - only in optical terms.

 

Good to know it's not a side effect, and I have to say I'm in awe of how you nailed that right away.  The optometrist did say that it will take 2-4 weeks to heal, and that if I'm still flashing in 2 weeks, to come see him.  I go to a "real doctor" tomorrow, and get my glasses updated on Friday (since that's what the gov't paid for, was an optical exam).  He did say that if my eye gets strained further (he wants me to wear the damn glasses) it could result in tearing.

 

I still have flashes, and they are now causing pain.  He said to ride it out.

 

And I made up my next 3 weeks of taper.....woo hoo!

Share this post


Link to post
JanCarol

MeiMeiQuest, I'm reading an article:  http://www.thebalancedmind.org/learn/library/interview-with-husseini-manji-md which is talking about why bipolars are different from other mental illnesses, and why lithium works.

 

It's a little over my head, but I'm kinda getting the gist that our neurotransmitters transmit fine, but the signals get scrambled in the cell.  Antidepressants work on the neurotransmitters (outside the cell, in the synapse) and scramble bipolars further.  But mood stabilizers smooth the internal signals.  To the best of my understanding.

 

Also - lithium is neuroprotective.  People who take lithium, when they have a stroke, have less damage.  Lithium is protective against Alzheimers and dementia (but so is cannabis). 

 

Anyhow, just a few notes on "pro lithium" - I'm sure you and I will go back and forth before the decision is final.

 

If I'm NOT bipolar, than screw the lithium.  But that family background thing (according to the Balanced Mind interview) is a key to determining whose brain is gonna look like what.  These studies were done with brain imaging.  (which, I have also heard disparaging things about "unscientific interpretation of images").

 

Score 1 for lithium.  Blargh.

Share this post


Link to post
JanCarol

Thanks Altostrata!  This may have applied to some of the practitioners I saw in Indiana, but Dr. KT it does not apply (I get 45-55 minutes with her EVERY time).  She is, however, relying on the letters of diagnosis received from Dr. Joel (a 10 minute specialist) in Indiana, and self reported history. But now she has 12 years of history of her own, and input from Alison, as they report to one another as required by referral.

 

My documented manic episode was maybe months long, or months building up, and then lasted for at least 2 months.  Thing is when they changed the DSM IV, it "upgraded" my status from Bipolar 2 to Bipolar 1.  They changed Bipolar 2 to "hypomanic" only, and I had one (count them:  ONE) documented manic episode. 

 

If Depression can be situational, cannot manic also be situational?  Post divorce, new job, losing weight, taking control of my life, living in a magickal house in an historic setting across the street from an ancient woods with a pre-Civil war graveyard in it?  And being friends with all my other house dwellers?  (converted old house = 4 apartments, we used to have progressive days:  breakfast at one apartment, lunch at another, dinner at another, and dessert at the last)  Being free of the chain-around-my-neck that was my husband, and realizing that although he was a peaceful person, he was a passive aggressive one, and neglect is a form of abuse, too?  Yes, I was using some recreational drugs at the time, but I don't think that was a factor.

 

So now I have an ophthalmologist; that only took a couple of days. 

 

And I found out my GP - Dr. Anita - who is a specialist (didn't know this) in nutrition & mental health - has a psychiatrist under her in her practice.  i.e., she's the boss of the place, and he's her specialist in psychiatry.  I told her about going off my meds.

 

She's not happy about the statins, my cholesterol is up (but she didn't call me in March, so it must not be too alarming).  And I need to learn about guidelines for "okay" and "panic," using the metric system.  The US system is a different set of numbers.  Maybe if I could figure out equivalencies I could make more sense of it.  She said not to go back on statins because I feel better (not many docs would say that) but that we needed to look at diet.

 

She and KT are in agreement - without knowing it.  She wants me to look into an anti-inflammatory diet, the Low FODMAPS (effectively, low fructose, wheat & lactose. ie about everything I eat) diet.  I may as well just walk out into a field and start grazing.

 

She is okay with coming off lithium and antidepressants, and even though I'm not ridden with side effects, she accedes my point that I'm getting old and less volatile, and maybe I don't need them to survive.  And definitely I don't want to be figuring out lithium doses into my 70's and 80's, when you become more sensitive to toxins.

 

The sad thing is, this diet could save my husband's life.  I'm just looking to get off meds and lose weight and be healthier (i.e., I'm not threatened yet, it's preventative instead of curative).

 

It's like he is in denial that he has something that killed his father and uncle.  Or he just can't think about it, too overwhelming.  But if he doesn't think about it soon - well - Dr. Anita asked after him, and I tried to tell her that I'm trying to get his attention on sugar & red meat & meditation but that we need something more.  For one thing, he ignores me (as if I never said it) about diet (as if he never heard it, maybe?).  And I don't always get all blissed out in meditation, but every now and then, there's a rare, floating moment where I am free.  He never gets anything but the mechanics of meditation, grinding those meditation gears with his eyes closed in a quiet room.....and that's harsh, and not very healing (nor successful)

 

But I've blathered about all I can.  Off to ophthalmologist tomorrow.

 

Day 1 of new taper.  Nothing new there!

 

OH YEAH: Thinking about my "bipolar" or "wacky" relatives:  none of them have been medicated.  In my generation, a few antidepressants have gone around, but hey, that's like 1/3 the US population, right?  Now I'm not saying that birth mother might not have done better on some lithium, maybe she would have.  But when she moved in with her ex-Navy sister who ran everything to precision schedules, she was fine.  Of course, now that sister is gone, and she's not doing as well.  She's in her 80's now, is that a good time to start lithium therapy?  I think not.  I don't even like antidepressants in the elderly.  (that said, my Mom and brother are on them but they wouldn't dare listen to me, because I'm one of those "wacky ones."  ;-)  ) 

Share this post


Link to post
JanCarol

Sorry, it's been ages since I wrote.  I'm still on the 3mg taper of Reboxitine.  

 

Ophthalmologist was glad to see me, said there are no tears, but please come back in a month, and sooner if there are any increases in the flashes or floaters or anything alarming - like new flashes or floaters, in other eye or different part of vision.  I still get the flashes, especially when I am tired, but they are not nearly as intrusive as they were.

 

I have had more emotions; is seems that sadness is pretty easy.  But I wonder if I have that other thing:  that greek word indicating inability to feel pleasure?  I went to the hairdressers, and instead of pleasurable, it was tedious.  Even the good bits like the shampoo.

 

My time in the sun has been erratic, as has been my sleep.

 

And because of the antihistamine withdrawal, I've had sinus problems, watery eyes and headaches.  It is my hope I can get all the way through this before I start to taper the lithium.

 

Because of that, I'm contemplating hovering at 75%, or 3mg of the Reboxitine.  I still have a week before I decide.  But Christmas - and Christmas in Australia is when all the psych docs take off for exotic locations - the only way you can get a doc in December and January here is to get admitted.  And that ain't happening!  I've stayed out of hospital my whole life, no time to start now!

 

I'll check back in later tonight, just wanted to drop by and say hi!

 

Thanks for listening!

Share this post


Link to post
Petunia

Hi JanCarol,

 

Thank you for the update, it sounds like you are doing ok.  Yes, anhedonia is common in withdrawal, we have a whole thread devoted to it if you are interested here:

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/2873-anhedonia-apathy-demotivation/

 

Another member here is also taking Reboxitine now, I think I remember reading that earlier today...... yes, Doreff11 was asking if anyone had any experience with withdrawing from it.

 

Petu.

Share this post


Link to post
JanCarol

I read the thread on anhedonia.  Yep.  I think the one that bothers me the most is food.  I think, "oh, that looks really good, maybe I will like it," but when it comes to eating it, it may as well be dead leaves or cardboard.

 

When I get a massage, even a light, fluffy fun massage, I cannot wait until she stops touching me.  I do not want to be touched.

 

Sadly, not even by my husband, maybe especially by my husband as I don't want anything more, I only hug him for his benefit, not mine (that can't feel good to him).

 

But I don't think this is withdrawal.  I think this may be side effect.  It's been here at least 10 years, maybe longer.  I think the lithium is doing it do me.

 

Like in the thread, I do take pleasure in my cat.  Not for my sake so much as I take pity on this poor vulnerable creature and give her whatever she wants, attention, pats, brushes.  Though I have a limit, and probably she would like more than I give.  Just like my husband.

 

I despise the telephone,  gods!  Please do not call me just to talk!  State your purpose, and let's meet in person.  (then when day of meeting comes, I dread it, am wearied by it, and get headaches from it, but at least I went, and I do feel better for human contact and empathy)  Unfortunately, because I live 14,000 miles away from my friends and family in the USA, the only times we can commune is by phone.  It helps to have a headset so that I can do stuff with my hands - like pat the cat or get the mail or fold the laundry.  

 

Apathy, too.  I call it my give-a-yhit-a-tude.  Nope.  Don't care.  World is ending, don't care.  I go through the motions because I'm conditioned to go through the motions.  This might go back more like 20-30 years.  I used to say, in Indiana, that it was "peer pressure" that got me to do anything.  To cook a meal.  To go to work to pay the bills, to make a phone call, to watch a movie.  Most of it was because someone said, "c'mon, let's do it!" in my community.

 

And anhedonia:  the shower.  the toothbrush, the hairbrush.  All of these things are evil necessities.  If I get sweaty I will shower, but I'll put it off and drag my feet as long as possible.  Don't even ask about shaving my body hairs off.  Nope.  That's twice a year.  I'm mostly clean, but again - it's discipline and habit, not enjoyment.

 

I do exercise regularly, and I dread that too.  But I do it, in a group, where if I don't do it, it feels awful.  It has saved my life.  Maybe next year I will get a black belt, after 10 years of this "exercise" thing.  

 

Tired now, gonna try and have anhodenic sleep.  Sometimes, in the morning, sleep feels good.  But not very often.

Share this post


Link to post
Altostrata

This will improve, JC. Hang in there.

Share this post


Link to post
JanCarol

Thanks Alto - but I suspect I'm not going to see many glimmers until I start tapering the lithium.  The scary part.  All of this stuff is SO long term - decades, while many so stories here are under a decade in total.  And maybe it's burned out, and I'll never see / feel that again.  I suspect that anhedonia may be a coping mechanism to keep me "safe" from episodes, and to tap into that will take decades more recovery.

 

Now, I'm headed into the dietitian's office, to see if my digestive problems can be fixed via a low fructose, wheat, lactose anti-inflammatory diet.  This is from my GP, not my psychiatrist.  But I don't know why I'm going.  I don't cook, hubby is clueless (geez, he has cancer and still buys processed meat because it's "on special."), I will not keep a fragging food log, nor will I count calories, carbs, or fat grams.  So I have no idea what she can suggest that I will accept.

 

Especially with this anhedonia thing.  If food is not satisfying, you would think I could eat any old thing and it would be the same, but "anti-comfort foods" are worse.  It's like I make an effort to try and find foods that I will like, and I nearly always fail - but if you gave me a plate of broccoli, I still would only eat 2 stalks of it before the effort just became too much.

 

Soooooo good luck! to the dietitian, maybe this will be my last meeting with her.  I just don't see how she's gonna be creative genius enough to get me to adopt new food patterns.  And if she thinks she's going to wade through my diet and lifestyle and slash all the foods I prefer and stack it with foods I don't care for - well.  I don't think so!

Share this post


Link to post
JanCarol

Alright.  I don't know that she will get it.  She just gave me a list of the FODMAPS allergens, and the "safe foods" and told me to "study it," and look for ways to learn from it.  If I want to, I can eliminate a group (like fructose) and see if I feel better.

 

I'm noticing how much I use sugar as a CNS depressant.  I can get a barbituate like effect from a big dose of sugar, if it's not accompanied by anything else, like a hamburger.  But then I had a burger/fry from Burger King last week, and it knocked me out, too.

 

But I HATE and despise all "sweeteners" I think they are evil and manufactured by the same chemical companies that gave us Roundup & GMO's & Prozac.  And Stevia is less evil, but I hate the taste.  

 

So I have a lot of work to do, especially with hubby in the house.  If I ban all sweet drinks (for example) he will go spare!  But they are bad for him, too, feeding his cancer.  If I had no sweet drinks in the house, I might actually lose some weight & improve my acid / alkaline profile immensely.  

 

But it's almost too much to think about while I'm going through withdrawal.

Share this post


Link to post
Meimeiquest

I will never forget seeing my pdoc with obvious akathisia from Abilify, knowing I had to stop it. I said, "If I eat a perfect diet (I was doing "Eat to Live" at the time) I feel fine. If I don't I feel depressed." She rolled her eyes at me and reached for her prescription pad...and I entered the Zyprexa Bubble. My husband has been having therapy once a month for managing the stress of me and our financial problems (that is pretty telling of how hard this has been!). The therapist told him...sleep, exercise, diet...that's pretty much the whole story on bipolar II.

Share this post


Link to post
JanCarol

Hi MeiMei, Is Eat to Live your best diet?  I've got to find something, some way to do it.  

 

Already, I'm less attracted to "junk food,"  I got a milkshake - homemade from a nice ice cream shop, but it was so sickly sweet I fell asleep.  If I could make the ice cream less sweet - still with sugar but not so syrupy - but geez, homemade ice cream is intense labour, I barely cook a meal now.

 

My docs are willing to concede the dietary factors - but I think that Australia is healthier in many many ways than the USA.  More fit, active people.  Sure, there's obesity here, too - but I see 80 year old ladies walking to the shops and sometimes on the trains or at the club socializing, and I never saw that in the USA.  I worry that Mom, when she loses her license, will be locked away in her apartment in Indiana with only my brother to look after her.  Here, you don't need a license.  Heck.  I see kids playing in the street!

 

And if you go to a doctor and chemist and complain of back pain, they are more likely to make sure you are on magnesium than to prescribe a pain pill.  Vicodin DOESN'T EVEN EXIST here.  Australia is a healthier place.

 

I've not been very consistent about the sun, and here it is, nearly 2 am and I'm still up.  I've had lots of sinus, watery eyes, and headaches from coming off the antidepressant.  I think I'm going to delay my taper until that is normalized - which could take awhile.  Maybe I will take turns with which one I taper, the antidepressant, or the antihistamine.  I'm on about 50% of the antihistamine.  Still on 75% of the Reboxetine.

 

Have you done light therapy, MeiMei?  I've heard good things about light boxes, I have friends who use them in the US where there isn't much natural light in winter.  It's full summer here, and there's plenty of light - when it's not cloudy or raining (which seems to be more often than it used to be, crazy weather).

 

Overall, I'm floating rather well with minimal change.  And I don't want to do anything radical and upset the apple cart.  Nice and easy, nice and smooth.   :D

Share this post


Link to post
JanCarol

G'day wow lots has happened.  Hubby's Mum died, funeral today.  

 

I can't go into a church - of any breed - and sing those hymns and listen to the ritual words (this was a Catholic thing, so there were lots of those) without crying.  I was so obviously crying (and I have some attachment to the deceased, but not to that extent!) inappropriately, but I just let it come (waves) and tried to feel if I could, where in my body the tears were coming from.  I can walk into churches with a sense of awe and holiness and appreciation for the makers of "this thing," but an active service......it was so that the Priest came to me and asked if "I was okay," gee, yes, fine, thanks, now that THAT is over.

 

It was a sweet service, there was even a photo of my own Dad in the slide show, as he came to Australia for the wedding. (or rather, we threw the wedding for his visit to Australia).  And I choked and cried some more!  

 

So after that, and after a boot camp in the park - a nice fun one - I'm feeling cleansed and restful.

 

* * *

 

I've been reading other threads, and I think I may be out of my depth.  I'm not doing so much research now.  So I don't have the brain links and clues to post.  I'm not a charming writer, just the facts, Jack.  Though I have been led to sites and videos that contain even MORE information than this site.

 

I am gaining a deeper appreciation for this site and how it came about and what gift it gives back to the next line of people waiting to be free.  And what a gift that is.  I'm hoping that my journey will be light and gentle, but I know that if it is not, I'm in good hands.

Share this post


Link to post
Altostrata

Very sorry for your loss, JanCarol.

 

Your posts are always welcome!

Share this post


Link to post
JanCarol

I feel as though I'm "failing" in my psychiatrist's "prescription" to take in the morning sun.  Today I have a splitting headache, and it is bloody hot here!  Especially with my getting up at midday (if I'd been well, I might have made it up by 10)  I know her plan is to trigger the natural melatonin in my system to become more diurnal, more "normal."  Australians are, on the whole, really "normal," even the weirdos and freaks (I mean that kindly) go to bed before midnight and get up with the sun.  The friend I know with the latest rising time "sleeps in" until 9.

 

So biochemically, I understand it.  Is it just that I'm stubborn?  "I don't wanna!"  ? ?? 

 

Or is it such an ingrained pattern that it's harder than kicking cigarettes or heroin?

 

Or is it that I chose to sleep "whenever I was tired," and wake "when I was rested" as a part of acceptance of my bipolar "diagnosis"?  And finding a form a stability there?

 

It is true, that in Australian society, this delayed cycle sleep is a crippling disorder.  Nearly impossible to hold a job in my field (it was not so in the USA, I could find work up to about 10 pm, I am an accountant / business consultant), or even do volunteer work.  There are, I suppose, crisis hotlines - but I'm not sure I could do that - telling people to go to the hospital or a doctor when they are in strife.

 

So today, just out of a blinding headache, I do not want to go out into the stinking hot sun!  I've only been getting 2-3 days per week.  I got it yesterday, just because we had to park and walk to the funeral.  I know that 4 days a week is enough for Vitamin D (even though I supplement), but I think melatonin should be daily.  It makes sense to be daily.

 

So - I've talked myself into going out into the sun, but that doesn't mean the battle is won.  Just this little skirmish.

 

SIDENOTE:  the sun is white hot bright here.  It's not for no reason that skin cancer is one of the largest concerns in Australia.  Oh I'm safe for a 10 minute visit, I'm just saying it's harsh and not a "walk in the park," even though that's exactly what it is!

Share this post


Link to post
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Terms of Use Privacy Policy