☼ Wulfgar: insomnia and mirtazapine/zopiclone withdrawal.

[wulfgar]

Relax melodies looks good. Will try it out!

[Meimeiquest]

Thank you for what you wrote about a code phrase with your kids. That will be part of tonight's dinner conversation at our house!

[moodyblues78]

Try this rain on a tent version. I meditate on this one. Maybe watching it on the phone in the dark might work distracting the mind. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Zm-iFXnW720

 

Thanks. I will try that. I wish it was longer. I like to sleep my nights in "rain". If I get sleep.

[wulfgar]

Thank you for what you wrote about a code phrase with your kids. That will be part of tonight's dinner conversation at our house!

You are welcome!

[wulfgar]

Agonists and antagonists => Severatonine agonyism?

 

Im trying to understand my poison mirtazapine. How benzos work is i think quite simple in comparison. Mirtazapine works on seratonin, epinephrine, dopamine and god knows what else.

My current mystery is the seratonin action.

The medic community thinks that elevating seratonin activity, reducing epinephrine activity etc can be a good thing. Reading about Mirtazapine, its a strong 5ht antagonist/inverse agonist. That would make this drug actualy lowering the action of seratonin in my brain/body. How does this compute? (I would think, based on their theory they would like to raise seratonin)

 

Anybody got an idea?

 

Would this also mean that switching a person from mirtazapine to an seratonin reuptake inhibitor would cause seratonin sydrome? Stoping mirtazapine when the neurons have adapted to less seratonin as when being on the drug long time would make the seratonin activity high. Adding a reuptake inhibitor would double the effect?

[Altostrata]

None of these drugs work as neatly as psychopharmacology describes them. Mirtazapine is all over the place. It's prescribed for sleeplessness yet it can have an activating effect because of the noradrenergic increase.

 

Serotonin syndrome is due to excessive serotonergic activity. Usually, it takes more than one serotonergic drug to cause serotonin syndrome.

 

Antagonist means something different from what you think. Please look this up.

[wulfgar]

Tried to change signature. New size rules. Post my old sig here for reference. Create new dieted signatur:

2010: Mirtazapine 30mg for sleep. Followed by Zopiclone 7.5 mg.

2012: Taper of Zopiclone (reduced by 1/4 every three weeks) and then Mirtazapine down to 7.5 mg by reducing 3.75 each month.

2013: Hospitalized 10 days due to complete Insomnia. Forced back up to 45mg Mirtazapine, 7.5 Zopiclone and also Theralene 1 ml. Experimented on with querciapine for several days with severe side effects. Refused to continue experimenting. Lied myself out by saying i slept better.

2013-03: Discovered I where Vitamin D deficient. Found the vitamin d and insomnia connection. Supplementing vitamin d. Dropped mirtazapine to 30 due to severe side effects. Quit Theralene. Zopiclone 7.5.

2013-04: Sleep improved with 1-2 hours extra. Dropped mirtazapine to 20 mg due to severe side effects. Zopiclone 7.5.

2013-05: Insomnia bad. Mirtazapine side effects much better. Hold at 20 mg mirtazapine.

2013-06: Sleep better. Started more controlled mirtazapine taper by liquid. M:20 Z:7.5

2013-07: M:15 Z:7.5. Insomnia worse. Changed taper to less reduction.

2013-08: M:11 Z:7.5. Sleep better.

2013-09: M:8 Z:7.5. Sleep ok average 4 hours. Daytime nausea.

2013-10: M:4 Z:7.5. Sleep ok. On night 5 hours straight!! Daytime nausea bad! Fell sick.

2013-11: M:2.5 Z:7.5. Sleep not ok. Daytime nausea, vomiting, sick feeling etc. Need to come of Zopiclone due to daytime withdrawal. Hold on mirtazapine taper.

2013-12: M2.5 Holding. Taper zopiclone 1/4 red every 5 days. Last Zopiclone 2013-12-19.

Now: Sleep is bad. 1-3 hours. Daytime nausea, vomiting, sick feeling much better. Almost gone.

2013-12-31 M2.5. Reinstated Zopiclone 3.75 mg

2014-01-06 M2.5. Sleep better taper Z to 1.9 mg.

Sleep currently ok.

[wulfgar]

Doing ok. Sleeping my usual fragmented ~5 hours so thats fine. (Lots of nightmares though.) Have been for a walk in the snow! Snows finally come! What a wonderful mood raiser. Its much brighter outside.

[moodyblues78]

We got snow today too.

 

Maybe it`s from the same cloud.

[moodyblues78]

Hi wulfgar.

 

You have been silent for a while. Hopefully that means that you are stuck in a window for good.

[mammaP]

Great minds think alike MB, I came in wondering if Wulfgar is ok too. Hope you are well Wulfgar

and having a lovely window and not a huge wave.

[wulfgar]

Hi friends moodyblues and mammaP. Thanks for your concern! Sadly not a window. Poor sleep, lots of anxiety and dizziness. No energy and serious low feeling. My fault, I jumped of zopiclone. Taper zopiclone is hard because of the pills is hard to cut and you cant titrate it. The taste of it makes me throw up. Decided i had enough gaging on zopiclone pill scraps. I think I'm through the worst now though. Last two days better. Dizziness and an anxiety lingers, but I can manage those when i get some sleep.

 

Hope your all are ok! Will try to catch up reading through the forum later on.

[moodyblues78]

Too bad. Welcome back to the SSRI Express. Next stop is Wave or Window. Arrival time varies. Just take your seat and buckle up.

[EternalOptimist]

My heart gos out to you W. thnkz for posting on my thread. I have checked up on you before and know u r going thru a long rough bout. Me too. Shame we have to suffer like this, ESP when we sought help and traded hells. Best to you tonight and to all of us.

EO

[wulfgar]

Thanks EO. Mirtazapine was ok for me in the beginning. When it started to go bad, it went quite bad. Had to taper fast till i got to lower dose. Most side effects went away when i got below 15. Still i think the benzo is even worse.

 

Got mild panic attack this morning. Dizzy, weak legs, dread, chest pain, wonky blood pressure. Still not ok. Hate this!!!

[EternalOptimist]

Wulfgar, I know the diff with Benzos....once off, took awhile til got better but was ok.

Maybe cause of the benzo w/d for me, the other drugs don't sit well but always been sensitive to meds.

I dropped down to 7.5 mg mitrazapine last night. Am curled up on couch holding on...mostly weird head and weakness.

Read where some found the med toxic to them so got off quickly and recovered in weeks. Seems fast but gives hope.

Hang in there.

[moodyblues78]

Sorry to hear that you are having a bay day wulfgar. It sucks. I`m sure you will feel better soon. Always look on the bright side of life.

[wulfgar]

Physical symptoms is driving me mad. Yesterday the awful peeing contest started again. Had to go more than 50 times. Must have lost 3 litres of fluid. Got dehydrated. Headache. Dehydration causes more dizziness. Palpitations. Higher blood pressure. Chest discomfort. Bedridden. Cant move because of the increasing dizziness when I'm up. Tried to drink more, only more bathroom. One cup in, more than one cup out. Up dosed mirtazapine one drop last night. This is crazy!

 

There seems to be a bit of a benzo wd thing spiking.

 

Cant go to the doctors either. They wont have a clue. I want a doctor that i can smack around a bit. Any doctor will do!

 

Manage to keep myself ok mentally though. Push the cognitive part of anxiety away.

 

Is there any household stuff that is anti diuretic?

[Altostrata]

When that happens, you might want to drink an electrolyte replenishing drink. We have one here called Pedialyte (for children but adults use it, too).

 

Excessive urination might cause an electrolyte imbalance, which causes other problems.

[mammaP]

I'm sorry you are feeling so ill Wulgar. I hope it settles down very soon. 

Who would have thought that those pills could cause so much misery 

 

Feeling rotten myself too but your comment about slapping a doctor made me

laugh out loud. 

[wulfgar]

Found a funny dialog. Was googling to find out how you actually go about counting sheep. Here are the comments on the article:

 

"I tried counting boobs instead. Unfortunately, that REALLY kept me 'up'."

 

"You need prayer... & a girlfriend!"

 

"I could probably use the prayer, but the last time I got a girlfriend my wife was PISSED!"

 

"well, next time use it in the right order: girlfriend first, and then pray your wife doesn't find out!"

 

/Wulfgar

[wulfgar]

Benzo wd stuff has let of quite much today. Blood pressure is still wonky and a little dizziness but i am hydrated again. Where outdoors in the snow and a short walk for a while and i am ok so happy days! Have taken some Theralene (antihistamine) the last days for anxiety and it has helped i think. Fraid i mess stuff up more by taking it though!

[moodyblues78]

So you won the peeing contest? 

[wulfgar]

For sure!!

[Petunia]

Have taken some Theralene (antihistamine) the last days for anxiety and it has helped i think. Fraid i mess stuff up more by taking it though!

 

Antihistamines work on the same receptors as SSRIs, we don't recommend using them because they do add complications to the withdrawal process.

 

Wulfgar, please read through this topic which will explain more about antihistamines:

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/505-antihistamine/?hl=antihistamines#entry5026

[wulfgar]

Thanks Petu for your reply. Read through the thread and decided it is not worth the risk. I will taper of the antihistamine then. Every time i find anything that helps even a little its either just placebo, starts working the other way in a few days or is bad for the WD process :-(

[moodyblues78]

Finding something that helps is frustrating. Nothing seems to be good for WD.

 

I took St John`s wort for a couple of weeks in December. Found out later that it was a mistake. It made all the symptoms worse. Then I found Glinko biloba. Another bad idea. No coffee, no alcohol, no painkillers or benzo`s. Everything is forbidden except misery. 

 

I stopped looking for cure. I`m sticking with Fish oil capsules and magnesium. That`s all.

[wulfgar]

Fish oil and magnesium it is then. And vitamin D. Will never be without vitamin d again!

 

Its now about two weeks without Zopiclone. Feels like a small victory anyhow. Trying to make some goals In my calendar to look forward to. Like putting marks on a wall for time keeping. I have also written a small "freedom" at 4 weeks. My thinking that if i reach 4 weeks then the risk that i have to reinstate should be over (i hope).

 

Entering a taper for the antihistamine in my calendar almost made me cry!

[Altostrata]

You may find you can get by with a smaller dosage of the Theralene.

[EternalOptimist]

Congrats on your small victory. Planning to look forward to something is def progress no matter how small.

Thumbs up !

[wulfgar]

Felt and feel ok, sleep is not the best though. Shallow sleep. Have quick tapered of the theralene. Might be the cause for the shallow sleep. Going start mirtazapine taper tonight down to 1.6 mg. Prepared for the ride, i think. (Or hope).

[mammaP]

Glad you are feeling better Wulfgar, hope the sleep improves soon for you, you'll be a new man! 

[wulfgar]

Thanks! Sleepy wishes to you to!

[EternalOptimist]

Good luck on your tapering down to 1.6 mg mit.  Are you water titrating?  what percentage are your cuts?  how often or will you just see how you do?  You can do this!

[wulfgar]

My cuts have been larger than 10%. Maybe 20-30% per month. I started to have such big side effects when on larger dose that I where forced to make big cuts. Side effects much better when i got below 15 mg. I still remember the side effects and it drives my wish to get of big time. I know it is still poisonous to my body. tapering 20-30% is very uncomfortable for me though!

 

I am using liquid Remeron(same as mirtazapine) from the pharmacy. It should be possible to get in most countries. I had to push my doctor for it and also have the pharmacy order it. Takes a few days to get it from my pharmacy. I get 28 drops from 15mg worth of solution. Im now down to 3 drops.

 

Im getting to know how my body reacts to a cut. Its usually quite similar. I takes a few days, then sleep gets bad. Followed also by a more adrenaline cortisol like wound up feeling. Have to avoid all stress, exercise etc during the first weeks. Also physical anxiety that i have to work real hard with so not to let it become mental anxiety as well. Mind fog. Easy to get back pain. Most WD:s usually settles down week till about week 3 but a strange peek of insomnia hits again at 3 weeks for a couple of days. I do not have a clue at all why that is though... Usually after a month i think i am out of the woods. I really think this drug should be tapered in month+ intervals and the percentage you have to experiment with until you reach whats best for you. A longer than month+ rest now an then can also be wise. Schedule in a little bit of living in between cuts if possible. Cutting all the time, feeling bad all the time, is not good.

[moodyblues78]

I`m glad that you have found a tapering pattern that works for you and you know what to expect. 

 

I`m still getting to know myself but I`ll get there too.