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The importance of MTHFR, methylation, & B vitamins: Eat leafy green veggies!


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I don't know. It all seems so overwhelming. There are so many things and this is just one of them. I am so frustrated and don't know where to even begin with any of this. I would pay to see a doctor with a clue if I could find one.

Started on Zoloft in 2002
Switched to Lexapro in 2005
Switched to Prozac in 2008
Off Prozac abruptly in 2010 (a mistake) - crashed
Lexapro end of 2010 - didn't work
Effexor until 2012 - roller coaster from hell
Back to Prozac November 2012 - one last rise and fall
Quit Prozac 01/13

Reinstated Prozac 5mg 05/13
Trial of 7.5 Remeron for one month 06/13, then off

Off Lamictal 06/13

Quit benzos 06/13

 

Reduced to 4mg Prozac 8/15/13

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That CORT article comes from a functional medicine website. Look above in this thread to see what Gia is doing. Naturopath at MTHFR,net consults, kellybroganmd.com (author of first article here) does Skype consulting for medication withdrawal.

1st round Prozac 1989/90, clear depression symptoms. 2nd round Prozac started 1999 when admitted to dr. I was tired. Prozac pooped out, switch to Cymbalta 3/2006. Diagnosed with bipolar disorder due to mania 6/2006--then I was taken abruptly off Cymbalta and didn't know I had SSRI withdrawal. Lots of meds for my intractable "bipolar" symptoms.

Zyprexa started about 9/06, mostly 5mg. Tapered 4/12 through12/29/12

Wellbutrin. XL 300 mg started 1/07, tapered 1/18/13 through 7/8/13

Oxazepam mostly continuously since 6/06, 30mg since 12/12, tapered 1.17.14 through 8.26.15

11/06 Lithium 600mg twice daily, 2.2.14 400mg TID DIY liquid, 2.12.14 1150mg, 3.2.14 1100mg, 3.18.14 1075mg, 4/14 updose to 1100mg, 6.1.14 900 mg capsules 7.8.14 810mg, 8.17.14 725mg, 8.24.24 700mg...10.22.14 487.5mg, 3.9.15 475mg, 4.1.15 462.5mg 4.21.15 450mg 8.11.15 375mg, 11.28.15 362.5mg, back to 375mg four days later, 3.4.16 updose to 475 (too much going on to risk trouble)

9/4/13 Toprol-XL 25mg daily for sudden hypertension, tapered 11.12.13 through 5.3.14, last 10 days or so switched to atenolol

7.4.14 Started Walsh Protocol

56 years old

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As I read about this, it is looking like methylation philosophies can be quite controversial. Has anyone besides Gia chosen an advisor? Any thoughts about Nancy Mullan?

1st round Prozac 1989/90, clear depression symptoms. 2nd round Prozac started 1999 when admitted to dr. I was tired. Prozac pooped out, switch to Cymbalta 3/2006. Diagnosed with bipolar disorder due to mania 6/2006--then I was taken abruptly off Cymbalta and didn't know I had SSRI withdrawal. Lots of meds for my intractable "bipolar" symptoms.

Zyprexa started about 9/06, mostly 5mg. Tapered 4/12 through12/29/12

Wellbutrin. XL 300 mg started 1/07, tapered 1/18/13 through 7/8/13

Oxazepam mostly continuously since 6/06, 30mg since 12/12, tapered 1.17.14 through 8.26.15

11/06 Lithium 600mg twice daily, 2.2.14 400mg TID DIY liquid, 2.12.14 1150mg, 3.2.14 1100mg, 3.18.14 1075mg, 4/14 updose to 1100mg, 6.1.14 900 mg capsules 7.8.14 810mg, 8.17.14 725mg, 8.24.24 700mg...10.22.14 487.5mg, 3.9.15 475mg, 4.1.15 462.5mg 4.21.15 450mg 8.11.15 375mg, 11.28.15 362.5mg, back to 375mg four days later, 3.4.16 updose to 475 (too much going on to risk trouble)

9/4/13 Toprol-XL 25mg daily for sudden hypertension, tapered 11.12.13 through 5.3.14, last 10 days or so switched to atenolol

7.4.14 Started Walsh Protocol

56 years old

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be careful with extreme juicing...it's made me sick at times...learning to juice when you need it is the trick...extreme anything is a red flag.

 

moderation in all things is what I'm learning...I juice when it's what my body needs...I DO NOT PUSH it anymore.

Everything Matters: Beyond Meds 

https://beyondmeds.com/

withdrawn from a cocktail of 6 psychiatric drugs that included every class of psych drug.
 

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and I don't eat spinach at all it's high histamine...

 

the others I do okay with in moderation...I have a good thyroid.

Everything Matters: Beyond Meds 

https://beyondmeds.com/

withdrawn from a cocktail of 6 psychiatric drugs that included every class of psych drug.
 

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My max on juice right now is 1 cup twice a day, if I have liver, just one cup. And then there's all the days that I don't have time....they keep me VERY moderate! Have you been able to talk with Chris Kessler yet, Gia?

1st round Prozac 1989/90, clear depression symptoms. 2nd round Prozac started 1999 when admitted to dr. I was tired. Prozac pooped out, switch to Cymbalta 3/2006. Diagnosed with bipolar disorder due to mania 6/2006--then I was taken abruptly off Cymbalta and didn't know I had SSRI withdrawal. Lots of meds for my intractable "bipolar" symptoms.

Zyprexa started about 9/06, mostly 5mg. Tapered 4/12 through12/29/12

Wellbutrin. XL 300 mg started 1/07, tapered 1/18/13 through 7/8/13

Oxazepam mostly continuously since 6/06, 30mg since 12/12, tapered 1.17.14 through 8.26.15

11/06 Lithium 600mg twice daily, 2.2.14 400mg TID DIY liquid, 2.12.14 1150mg, 3.2.14 1100mg, 3.18.14 1075mg, 4/14 updose to 1100mg, 6.1.14 900 mg capsules 7.8.14 810mg, 8.17.14 725mg, 8.24.24 700mg...10.22.14 487.5mg, 3.9.15 475mg, 4.1.15 462.5mg 4.21.15 450mg 8.11.15 375mg, 11.28.15 362.5mg, back to 375mg four days later, 3.4.16 updose to 475 (too much going on to risk trouble)

9/4/13 Toprol-XL 25mg daily for sudden hypertension, tapered 11.12.13 through 5.3.14, last 10 days or so switched to atenolol

7.4.14 Started Walsh Protocol

56 years old

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I don't know if you guys can take these, but Kelly Brogan recommended this Radiant Life Liver Supplement. Got it from Amazon. Can't tell if it's doing anything, but I'm taking it.

 

Jan. 1994 Pamelor

2000 switched to Zoloft 

2011 Zoloft pooped out- Dr. switched me directly to Lexapro15mg -had a horrible 6mths

2013 upped Lexapro to 20 mgs-pooped out

June 2013 Dr. added 150 Wellbutrin to Lexapro.

July 2013 Switched back to Zoloft 100mgs.Was still taking Wellbutrin. Lots of anxiety from the Wellbutrin

July 2013 Started to wean Wellbutrin- off by Sept.

Oct. 2013 added 400 mgs of Neurotin to the Zoloft

Jan 2014 Tapered off of the Zoloft and onto Prozac 30 mgs. Also still taking 400 mgs Neurotin

Feb 2014 Reduced Prozac to 13 mgs. Still taking 400 mgs Neurotin

Aug. 2014 Prozac 13 mgs. Finished with Neurotin. .7 Risperadol

 

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Yes, eating raw veggies can compensate for low methylation capacity.

 

About 40%-50% of the general population has heterozygous or homozygous MTHFR variations. This makes it pretty much standard equipment -- it's a normal mutation, not an abnormal one.

 

Clearly, MTHFR variations have not been a fatal flaw in human evolution. It's possible they confer some other survival advantage.

 

However, probably in most of our evolutionary history, we ate more raw veggies.

 

I like to put a bunch in my blender with a little water and drink an all-veg smoothie, pulp and all. Parsley is yummy for this, also lettuce with apple.

 

I do this earlier in the day, assuming methylation will occur, which is activating. At night, I take 100mg niacinamide to calm the methylation.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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I don't know if you guys can take these, but Kelly Brogan recommended this Radiant Life Liver Supplement. Got it from Amazon. Can't tell if it's doing anything, but I'm taking it.

I have been gagging down liver twice a week lately. Once I get through the drama of eating it, I feel great...really full in a great way. It obviously has something in it that I need.

1st round Prozac 1989/90, clear depression symptoms. 2nd round Prozac started 1999 when admitted to dr. I was tired. Prozac pooped out, switch to Cymbalta 3/2006. Diagnosed with bipolar disorder due to mania 6/2006--then I was taken abruptly off Cymbalta and didn't know I had SSRI withdrawal. Lots of meds for my intractable "bipolar" symptoms.

Zyprexa started about 9/06, mostly 5mg. Tapered 4/12 through12/29/12

Wellbutrin. XL 300 mg started 1/07, tapered 1/18/13 through 7/8/13

Oxazepam mostly continuously since 6/06, 30mg since 12/12, tapered 1.17.14 through 8.26.15

11/06 Lithium 600mg twice daily, 2.2.14 400mg TID DIY liquid, 2.12.14 1150mg, 3.2.14 1100mg, 3.18.14 1075mg, 4/14 updose to 1100mg, 6.1.14 900 mg capsules 7.8.14 810mg, 8.17.14 725mg, 8.24.24 700mg...10.22.14 487.5mg, 3.9.15 475mg, 4.1.15 462.5mg 4.21.15 450mg 8.11.15 375mg, 11.28.15 362.5mg, back to 375mg four days later, 3.4.16 updose to 475 (too much going on to risk trouble)

9/4/13 Toprol-XL 25mg daily for sudden hypertension, tapered 11.12.13 through 5.3.14, last 10 days or so switched to atenolol

7.4.14 Started Walsh Protocol

56 years old

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Yes, eating raw veggies can compensate for low methylation capacity.

 

About 40%-50% of the general population has heterozygous or homozygous MTHFR variations. This makes it pretty much standard equipment -- it's a normal mutation, not an abnormal one.

 

Clearly, MTHFR variations have not been a fatal flaw in human evolution. It's possible they confer some other survival advantage.

 

However, probably in most of our evolutionary history, we ate more raw veggies.

 

I like to put a bunch in my blender with a little water and drink an all-veg smoothie, pulp and all. Parsley is yummy for this, also lettuce with apple.

 

I do this earlier in the day, assuming methylation will occur, which is activating. At night, I take 100mg niacinamide to calm the methylation.

I used to do that some. Juicing is pretty abnormal, but I feel like I am full of toxins, and I am trying to flood and flush cells (probably delusional here). I have strong chemical tastes in my mouth and mild nausea much of the time. Once in a while I can taste Zyprexa, it has a uniquely horrible taste.

1st round Prozac 1989/90, clear depression symptoms. 2nd round Prozac started 1999 when admitted to dr. I was tired. Prozac pooped out, switch to Cymbalta 3/2006. Diagnosed with bipolar disorder due to mania 6/2006--then I was taken abruptly off Cymbalta and didn't know I had SSRI withdrawal. Lots of meds for my intractable "bipolar" symptoms.

Zyprexa started about 9/06, mostly 5mg. Tapered 4/12 through12/29/12

Wellbutrin. XL 300 mg started 1/07, tapered 1/18/13 through 7/8/13

Oxazepam mostly continuously since 6/06, 30mg since 12/12, tapered 1.17.14 through 8.26.15

11/06 Lithium 600mg twice daily, 2.2.14 400mg TID DIY liquid, 2.12.14 1150mg, 3.2.14 1100mg, 3.18.14 1075mg, 4/14 updose to 1100mg, 6.1.14 900 mg capsules 7.8.14 810mg, 8.17.14 725mg, 8.24.24 700mg...10.22.14 487.5mg, 3.9.15 475mg, 4.1.15 462.5mg 4.21.15 450mg 8.11.15 375mg, 11.28.15 362.5mg, back to 375mg four days later, 3.4.16 updose to 475 (too much going on to risk trouble)

9/4/13 Toprol-XL 25mg daily for sudden hypertension, tapered 11.12.13 through 5.3.14, last 10 days or so switched to atenolol

7.4.14 Started Walsh Protocol

56 years old

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I do veggie smoothies too...

 

will not be talking to Chris Kresser until March 27 as he is on his book tour...

Everything Matters: Beyond Meds 

https://beyondmeds.com/

withdrawn from a cocktail of 6 psychiatric drugs that included every class of psych drug.
 

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meimei, I learned that poaching fresh organic chicken livers is the most palatable liver dish for me. Clean the livers; saute some chopped onions and garlic in olive oil, add a little water or chicken stock, add the livers and gently cook. They come out tender but cooked through.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Hakes me gag just thinking of it, but so does the beef liver :)

1st round Prozac 1989/90, clear depression symptoms. 2nd round Prozac started 1999 when admitted to dr. I was tired. Prozac pooped out, switch to Cymbalta 3/2006. Diagnosed with bipolar disorder due to mania 6/2006--then I was taken abruptly off Cymbalta and didn't know I had SSRI withdrawal. Lots of meds for my intractable "bipolar" symptoms.

Zyprexa started about 9/06, mostly 5mg. Tapered 4/12 through12/29/12

Wellbutrin. XL 300 mg started 1/07, tapered 1/18/13 through 7/8/13

Oxazepam mostly continuously since 6/06, 30mg since 12/12, tapered 1.17.14 through 8.26.15

11/06 Lithium 600mg twice daily, 2.2.14 400mg TID DIY liquid, 2.12.14 1150mg, 3.2.14 1100mg, 3.18.14 1075mg, 4/14 updose to 1100mg, 6.1.14 900 mg capsules 7.8.14 810mg, 8.17.14 725mg, 8.24.24 700mg...10.22.14 487.5mg, 3.9.15 475mg, 4.1.15 462.5mg 4.21.15 450mg 8.11.15 375mg, 11.28.15 362.5mg, back to 375mg four days later, 3.4.16 updose to 475 (too much going on to risk trouble)

9/4/13 Toprol-XL 25mg daily for sudden hypertension, tapered 11.12.13 through 5.3.14, last 10 days or so switched to atenolol

7.4.14 Started Walsh Protocol

56 years old

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Would eating a small portion of liver once a week take care of this methylation problem?

2010: Mirtazapine 30mg followed by Zopiclone 7.5 mg for sleep post surgery due to pain.
2012-> Tapering Mirtazapine and Zopiclone at different rates unsuccessfully.
2013: Hospitalized 10 days due to complete Insomnia. Forced back up to 45mg Mirtazapine, 7.5 mg Zopiclone and also Theralene 1 ml.
2013-03: Lab showed Vitamin D deficient. Found the vitamin d and insomnia connection. Supplementing vitamin d. Sleep improved by 1-2 hours
2013-04: Dropped mirtazapine to 30 due to severe side effects. Quit Theralene. Zopiclone 7.5.
2013-05 - 2013-11: Mirtazapine taper monthly 25 20 15 11 8 4 2.5 mg
2013-12 Holding M at 2.5. Need to taper Zopiclone due to daytime nausea and vomiting. Taper zopiclone 1/4 red every 5 d. Last Z 2013-12-19
2013-12-31 M:2.5. Reinstated Zopiclone 3.75 due to Insomnia
2014-01-06 M:2.5. Taper Z 1.9 ... 2014-01-14 M:2.5. Z 1 mg.
Jumped of Zopiclone 01-20. Jumped mirtazapine 02-16.

Theralene: 10mg 02-09. 8mg 03-09. 5mg 03-15. 4mg 03-24. 3mg 04-08. Jumped 04-21.
Zopiclone free for 251 days. Mirtazapine free for 224 days.

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I think it would give you some B12, which can't hurt.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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I don't know if you guys can take these, but Kelly Brogan recommended this Radiant Life Liver Supplement. Got it from Amazon. Can't tell if it's doing anything, but I'm taking it.

Thanks for this tip!

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I am thrilled that your methylation might be screwed up! That is 1000x better than "permanent brain damage"! It is easy to see gene variants as deterministic, also, you need to have an expert who can put things in accurate perspective. Gia may have some other ideas as well.

 

For example, I was told my cousin's daughter tested "double positive for the mental illness gene." This must be the SERT gene, but I have been studying it, and one source says almost 20% of people of European origin have two short alleles. It hardly means you are bipolar for life, but that's what everyone thinks of her.

 

On the other hand, it's hard to know exactly what is happening without full information. Niacin rescued me from horrible anxiety, but was it due to methyl trapping, or did it just get some extra GABA to my benzo-starved brain? Do I just need more whole-food sourced vitamins, or do I need methylated supplements? I don't know how to know without testing, and it is beginning to look like the whole methylation cycle needs tested if you test anything.

1st round Prozac 1989/90, clear depression symptoms. 2nd round Prozac started 1999 when admitted to dr. I was tired. Prozac pooped out, switch to Cymbalta 3/2006. Diagnosed with bipolar disorder due to mania 6/2006--then I was taken abruptly off Cymbalta and didn't know I had SSRI withdrawal. Lots of meds for my intractable "bipolar" symptoms.

Zyprexa started about 9/06, mostly 5mg. Tapered 4/12 through12/29/12

Wellbutrin. XL 300 mg started 1/07, tapered 1/18/13 through 7/8/13

Oxazepam mostly continuously since 6/06, 30mg since 12/12, tapered 1.17.14 through 8.26.15

11/06 Lithium 600mg twice daily, 2.2.14 400mg TID DIY liquid, 2.12.14 1150mg, 3.2.14 1100mg, 3.18.14 1075mg, 4/14 updose to 1100mg, 6.1.14 900 mg capsules 7.8.14 810mg, 8.17.14 725mg, 8.24.24 700mg...10.22.14 487.5mg, 3.9.15 475mg, 4.1.15 462.5mg 4.21.15 450mg 8.11.15 375mg, 11.28.15 362.5mg, back to 375mg four days later, 3.4.16 updose to 475 (too much going on to risk trouble)

9/4/13 Toprol-XL 25mg daily for sudden hypertension, tapered 11.12.13 through 5.3.14, last 10 days or so switched to atenolol

7.4.14 Started Walsh Protocol

56 years old

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Here's another con of genetic testing: knowledge of the human genome is limited. Just because the snp of one gene is mutated a particular way, we don't know what other snps might compensate. So even with testing we don't have the whole picture. We know much more about epigenetics in general....that positive lifestyle habits profoundly influence the influence of the genes. But if we knew some of the mutations, would that help with motivation to do the lifestyle changes. I spin round and round in my head....

1st round Prozac 1989/90, clear depression symptoms. 2nd round Prozac started 1999 when admitted to dr. I was tired. Prozac pooped out, switch to Cymbalta 3/2006. Diagnosed with bipolar disorder due to mania 6/2006--then I was taken abruptly off Cymbalta and didn't know I had SSRI withdrawal. Lots of meds for my intractable "bipolar" symptoms.

Zyprexa started about 9/06, mostly 5mg. Tapered 4/12 through12/29/12

Wellbutrin. XL 300 mg started 1/07, tapered 1/18/13 through 7/8/13

Oxazepam mostly continuously since 6/06, 30mg since 12/12, tapered 1.17.14 through 8.26.15

11/06 Lithium 600mg twice daily, 2.2.14 400mg TID DIY liquid, 2.12.14 1150mg, 3.2.14 1100mg, 3.18.14 1075mg, 4/14 updose to 1100mg, 6.1.14 900 mg capsules 7.8.14 810mg, 8.17.14 725mg, 8.24.24 700mg...10.22.14 487.5mg, 3.9.15 475mg, 4.1.15 462.5mg 4.21.15 450mg 8.11.15 375mg, 11.28.15 362.5mg, back to 375mg four days later, 3.4.16 updose to 475 (too much going on to risk trouble)

9/4/13 Toprol-XL 25mg daily for sudden hypertension, tapered 11.12.13 through 5.3.14, last 10 days or so switched to atenolol

7.4.14 Started Walsh Protocol

56 years old

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The gene testing is not predictive, and if you follow discussions of the MTHFR variations, you'll see there are so many variations in "treating" them, it amounts to trial and error.

 

So if you have an analytical mind, you might want your gene testing results to ponder, but right now, they have practical application only in a few very limited conditions.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Watch out for getting caught up in the methylation fad.

When 40%-50% of the population has a genetic "mutation," it's a normal variation that confers some survival benefit. That benefit has not yet been discovered. Who knows, it might be a different way to metabolize B vitamins.

The factors that go into methylation are so complex, no one has unraveled them yet, and so-called treatment is trial-and-error.

What we do know is raw green leafy vegetables are good for you. Eat them at every opportunity. They are very much absent in the modern diet.

 

Caution: I make green drinks in a blender. I'll put in salad greens, parsley, apple, etc. with a little water, whirl it around, and drink it down. I find this very refreshing and invigorating. BUT -- I've found if I ingest my green smoothie in the evening, I don't sleep very well. I guess it's mildly stimulating. I recommend if you try this, do it during the day.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Somehow the idea of knowing is validation to me. One of the core conflicts in our marriage is that my husband doesn't really "get" or support my nutritional and exercise needs. I know that sounds weird, but I feel like a different person when I eat right for me.....which is expensive and time consuming. And when I am tired I am very tempted by bad food. But, if I had testing done, it would cost a lot...and I would still need the same diet and exercise, whatever the test showed. I'm just gearing up for appt. with my test-happy doctor tomorrow. At the last visit she asked me to research Deplin...why would I want to take that when I seemed to have a reaction to a small amount of generic methyl folate.

1st round Prozac 1989/90, clear depression symptoms. 2nd round Prozac started 1999 when admitted to dr. I was tired. Prozac pooped out, switch to Cymbalta 3/2006. Diagnosed with bipolar disorder due to mania 6/2006--then I was taken abruptly off Cymbalta and didn't know I had SSRI withdrawal. Lots of meds for my intractable "bipolar" symptoms.

Zyprexa started about 9/06, mostly 5mg. Tapered 4/12 through12/29/12

Wellbutrin. XL 300 mg started 1/07, tapered 1/18/13 through 7/8/13

Oxazepam mostly continuously since 6/06, 30mg since 12/12, tapered 1.17.14 through 8.26.15

11/06 Lithium 600mg twice daily, 2.2.14 400mg TID DIY liquid, 2.12.14 1150mg, 3.2.14 1100mg, 3.18.14 1075mg, 4/14 updose to 1100mg, 6.1.14 900 mg capsules 7.8.14 810mg, 8.17.14 725mg, 8.24.24 700mg...10.22.14 487.5mg, 3.9.15 475mg, 4.1.15 462.5mg 4.21.15 450mg 8.11.15 375mg, 11.28.15 362.5mg, back to 375mg four days later, 3.4.16 updose to 475 (too much going on to risk trouble)

9/4/13 Toprol-XL 25mg daily for sudden hypertension, tapered 11.12.13 through 5.3.14, last 10 days or so switched to atenolol

7.4.14 Started Walsh Protocol

56 years old

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Good point.

 

I agree with you, but I've been looking into MTHFR, being heterozygous for the 2 main mutations myself PLUS hypersensitive to the supplements, and I'm not seeing any clarity.

 

One option seems to be trimethylglycine,  a methyl donor, but I have no idea what kind of reaction I or anyone who is hypersensitive to alerting might have to it.

 

(Note: I talked to a friend who does not have withdrawal syndrome but is fairly sensitive, and she says a green smoothie in the evening keeps her awake, too. So it must be doing something!)

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Have you been seeing info on "methyl trapping"...when there is another problem in the cycle of methylation, so the cycle can't handle the methyl groups produced by fixing the logjam at MTHFR? For others reading, that might be at CBS or COMT. Www.nancymullan.com has a diagram of the whole methylation cycle. It is very complex. COMT problems can lead to poor toxin and hormone management, causing sex hormone related cancers, among other things. My grandmother died of breast cancer and my dad was just diagnosed with advanced prostate cancer. They both also had psychiatric diagnoses.

 

I don't know if it is worth testing for MTHFR if you don't assess the whole cycle. But I am very low on the learning curve, and not even sure I want to go up it.

1st round Prozac 1989/90, clear depression symptoms. 2nd round Prozac started 1999 when admitted to dr. I was tired. Prozac pooped out, switch to Cymbalta 3/2006. Diagnosed with bipolar disorder due to mania 6/2006--then I was taken abruptly off Cymbalta and didn't know I had SSRI withdrawal. Lots of meds for my intractable "bipolar" symptoms.

Zyprexa started about 9/06, mostly 5mg. Tapered 4/12 through12/29/12

Wellbutrin. XL 300 mg started 1/07, tapered 1/18/13 through 7/8/13

Oxazepam mostly continuously since 6/06, 30mg since 12/12, tapered 1.17.14 through 8.26.15

11/06 Lithium 600mg twice daily, 2.2.14 400mg TID DIY liquid, 2.12.14 1150mg, 3.2.14 1100mg, 3.18.14 1075mg, 4/14 updose to 1100mg, 6.1.14 900 mg capsules 7.8.14 810mg, 8.17.14 725mg, 8.24.24 700mg...10.22.14 487.5mg, 3.9.15 475mg, 4.1.15 462.5mg 4.21.15 450mg 8.11.15 375mg, 11.28.15 362.5mg, back to 375mg four days later, 3.4.16 updose to 475 (too much going on to risk trouble)

9/4/13 Toprol-XL 25mg daily for sudden hypertension, tapered 11.12.13 through 5.3.14, last 10 days or so switched to atenolol

7.4.14 Started Walsh Protocol

56 years old

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Yeah, exactly. I can't deal with it. There are these expensive consultants you can hire to interpret your results, but I've been following some discussions on Dr.  Ben's site, and it looks like trial and error to me.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Well, I think it is possible to do a lot alone with 23andme. But I think eliminating as many food and environmental toxins as possible, Epsom salts baths, sweating exercise, hyper nutrition, bone broth, vitamin D, magnesium, fish oil, sleep, and probiotics would take someone a good part of the way any professional could. Do you have any other DIY ideas, especially regarding ammonia?

1st round Prozac 1989/90, clear depression symptoms. 2nd round Prozac started 1999 when admitted to dr. I was tired. Prozac pooped out, switch to Cymbalta 3/2006. Diagnosed with bipolar disorder due to mania 6/2006--then I was taken abruptly off Cymbalta and didn't know I had SSRI withdrawal. Lots of meds for my intractable "bipolar" symptoms.

Zyprexa started about 9/06, mostly 5mg. Tapered 4/12 through12/29/12

Wellbutrin. XL 300 mg started 1/07, tapered 1/18/13 through 7/8/13

Oxazepam mostly continuously since 6/06, 30mg since 12/12, tapered 1.17.14 through 8.26.15

11/06 Lithium 600mg twice daily, 2.2.14 400mg TID DIY liquid, 2.12.14 1150mg, 3.2.14 1100mg, 3.18.14 1075mg, 4/14 updose to 1100mg, 6.1.14 900 mg capsules 7.8.14 810mg, 8.17.14 725mg, 8.24.24 700mg...10.22.14 487.5mg, 3.9.15 475mg, 4.1.15 462.5mg 4.21.15 450mg 8.11.15 375mg, 11.28.15 362.5mg, back to 375mg four days later, 3.4.16 updose to 475 (too much going on to risk trouble)

9/4/13 Toprol-XL 25mg daily for sudden hypertension, tapered 11.12.13 through 5.3.14, last 10 days or so switched to atenolol

7.4.14 Started Walsh Protocol

56 years old

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  • 4 weeks later...

Well, if you're looking for B12 and don't want to eat liver twice a week google "foods with most B12" Here's a list (per 100g):

 

http://www.healthaliciousness.com/articles/foods-high-in-vitamin-B12.php

 

B12 per 100 grams:  

shell fish (clams) 98.9μg (1648% DV); Oysters (408%); Beef liver (83.1μg (1386% DV); Fish (Mackerel):19.0μg (317% DV); Smoked Salmon (257%), Herring (186%), Tuna (154%), Canned Sardines (126%) and Trout (106%)

 

Clams have more B12 than Beef liver, so you don't have to eat liver all of the time. You could have clams one day, salmon the next, liver one day. I know livers are very healthy because they have a lot of nutrients including B12. I've never had clams, but I'm trying them tonight. 

Meds I'm currently taperingDeplin 7.5 mg 

                                                Klonopin .25 mg +1/4(.25) (I did a fairly rapid taper down from around 2 mg Klonopin, but I've held at .25 for several months now, and even updosed a quarter of a pill to give myself 4 good nights of sleep and lift myself out of a depression

(about to start a micro-taper)

 

 

 

Medications I tapered off successfully: Bupropion 150 mg, Trazadone 150 mg, Oxcarbazepin 300 mg, Loxapine 20 mg

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Just a question. What if i grow my own spinach and pick it fresh? Will it still be too high in histamine? 

 

and I don't eat spinach at all it's high histamine...

 

the others I do okay with in moderation...I have a good thyroid.

Was on Citalopram 20mg since Feb 2008 - switched to Paxil 20mg in August 2010

Tapered way too fast in April 2012 by skipping days. Taper completed in 6 weeks

Tried prozac 20mg for 3 days - felt spaced out, not better.

Tried 30mg Cymbalta for 2 days. SEVERE ADVERSE REACTION

Antidepressant free since 14 August 2012

Birth control on and off during this time - Last taken 18 June 2017 - Morning after pill 

Started mainly using 0.5mg Xanax beginning 2016 for severe panic attacks and anxiety due to trauma

Xanax on and off never more than 0.5mg at a time, never taking it 3 days in a row - used sparingly 

 

6 Years antidepressant free - Still in severe withdrawal with over 60 symptoms

Severe setback started May 2018 with no let up to date. Developed many new symptoms like tremors, inner vibrations, insomnia, visual distortions and dr/dp are 100x worse, i have severe sensitivity to movement, My dizziness and vertigo got worse and it now feels like im constantly rocking on a boat, my anxiety is sky high, suicidal idiation is back, i feel extremely brain damaged 

 

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Any news on this? What treatment did Chris Kresser give you to follow? Noticed that you had an appointment with him on the 27th but haven't posted anything about it.

 

I do veggie smoothies too...

 

will not be talking to Chris Kresser until March 27 as he is on his book tour...

Was on Citalopram 20mg since Feb 2008 - switched to Paxil 20mg in August 2010

Tapered way too fast in April 2012 by skipping days. Taper completed in 6 weeks

Tried prozac 20mg for 3 days - felt spaced out, not better.

Tried 30mg Cymbalta for 2 days. SEVERE ADVERSE REACTION

Antidepressant free since 14 August 2012

Birth control on and off during this time - Last taken 18 June 2017 - Morning after pill 

Started mainly using 0.5mg Xanax beginning 2016 for severe panic attacks and anxiety due to trauma

Xanax on and off never more than 0.5mg at a time, never taking it 3 days in a row - used sparingly 

 

6 Years antidepressant free - Still in severe withdrawal with over 60 symptoms

Severe setback started May 2018 with no let up to date. Developed many new symptoms like tremors, inner vibrations, insomnia, visual distortions and dr/dp are 100x worse, i have severe sensitivity to movement, My dizziness and vertigo got worse and it now feels like im constantly rocking on a boat, my anxiety is sky high, suicidal idiation is back, i feel extremely brain damaged 

 

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Last question (Sorry! hope im not bothering too much)

 

GiaK, you said you had a Methylation profile. Does this show defective genes that are the cause of Methylation problems? 

 

I dont know if im understanding any of this correctly... and please tell me if i am wrong, but its my understanding that to fix methylation issues you need to know all the mutated SNPS as this dictates what order to address these issues, so if you have COMT and MTHFR you must address the COMT first otherwise you will have an adverse reaction to the methyl donors?

 

I dont know if any of what i said made any sense

Was on Citalopram 20mg since Feb 2008 - switched to Paxil 20mg in August 2010

Tapered way too fast in April 2012 by skipping days. Taper completed in 6 weeks

Tried prozac 20mg for 3 days - felt spaced out, not better.

Tried 30mg Cymbalta for 2 days. SEVERE ADVERSE REACTION

Antidepressant free since 14 August 2012

Birth control on and off during this time - Last taken 18 June 2017 - Morning after pill 

Started mainly using 0.5mg Xanax beginning 2016 for severe panic attacks and anxiety due to trauma

Xanax on and off never more than 0.5mg at a time, never taking it 3 days in a row - used sparingly 

 

6 Years antidepressant free - Still in severe withdrawal with over 60 symptoms

Severe setback started May 2018 with no let up to date. Developed many new symptoms like tremors, inner vibrations, insomnia, visual distortions and dr/dp are 100x worse, i have severe sensitivity to movement, My dizziness and vertigo got worse and it now feels like im constantly rocking on a boat, my anxiety is sky high, suicidal idiation is back, i feel extremely brain damaged 

 

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Gia I am also vert interested in this topic as I have been following methylation topics on another forum (fb group) I have registered to ask what your dr advised you, and if the methylation test listed all your SNPs regarding methylation, i feel this could be improtant

 

please update us when you feel able x

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Ben Lynch on methylfolate side effects http://mthfr.net/methylfolate-side-effects/2012/03/01

 

Start low and go slow.

Wow, thanks for this. I've been experiencing about half the things on that side effect list and wondering why the heck that was. Of course it could still be any number of other factors, but I can easily cut back on my dosing of the quatrefolic.

 

I've never been tested for this but I've suspected since long before other people started talking about it that I have a problem with folate metabolism, since I have a neural tube defect and so do both of my daughters. Plus back in the day when doctors still prescribed sulfa drugs, they always made me extra sick. Between those two things I have always suspected a problem, so when it was first possible to get MTHF I started taking it. At the time I was still on higher doses of Lamictal, which interferes with folic acid metabolism too.

 

Anyway, you can always get too much of a good thing, and I've always found this to be true with vitamins, at least for me. So I think I'll cut back and see if the joint aches and headaches and inflammation get better.

Started on Prozac and Xanax in 1992 for PTSD after an assault. One drug led to more, the usual story. Got sicker and sicker, but believed I needed the drugs for my "underlying disease". Long story...lost everything. Life savings, home, physical and mental health, relationships, friendships, ability to work, everything. Amitryptiline, Prozac, bupropion, buspirone, flurazepam, diazepam, alprazolam, Paxil, citalopram, lamotrigine, gabapentin...probably more I've forgotten. 

Started multidrug taper in Feb 2010.  Doing a very slow microtaper, down to low doses now and feeling SO much better, getting my old personality and my brain back! Able to work full time, have a full social life, and cope with stress better than ever. Not perfect, but much better. After 23 lost years. Big Pharma has a lot to answer for. And "medicine for profit" is just not a great idea.

 

Feb 15 2010:  300 mg Neurontin  200 Lamictal   10 Celexa      0.65 Xanax   and 5 mg Ambien 

Feb 10 2014:   62 Lamictal    1.1 Celexa         0.135 Xanax    1.8 Valium

Feb 10 2015:   50 Lamictal      0.875 Celexa    0.11 Xanax      1.5 Valium

Feb 15 2016:   47.5 Lamictal   0.75 Celexa      0.0875 Xanax    1.42 Valium    

2/12/20             12                       0.045               0.007                   1 

May 2021            7                       0.01                  0.0037                1

Feb 2022            6                      0!!!                     0.00167               0.98                2.5 mg Ambien

Oct 2022       4.5 mg Lamictal    (off Celexa, off Xanax)   0.95 Valium    Ambien, 1/4 to 1/2 of a 5 mg tablet 

 

I'm not a doctor. Any advice I give is just my civilian opinion.

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Amazon has an e-booklet called MTHFR Basics by Ben Lynch for about a dollar. It's a quick overview of methylation. Lifestyle, lifestyle, lifestyle.

1st round Prozac 1989/90, clear depression symptoms. 2nd round Prozac started 1999 when admitted to dr. I was tired. Prozac pooped out, switch to Cymbalta 3/2006. Diagnosed with bipolar disorder due to mania 6/2006--then I was taken abruptly off Cymbalta and didn't know I had SSRI withdrawal. Lots of meds for my intractable "bipolar" symptoms.

Zyprexa started about 9/06, mostly 5mg. Tapered 4/12 through12/29/12

Wellbutrin. XL 300 mg started 1/07, tapered 1/18/13 through 7/8/13

Oxazepam mostly continuously since 6/06, 30mg since 12/12, tapered 1.17.14 through 8.26.15

11/06 Lithium 600mg twice daily, 2.2.14 400mg TID DIY liquid, 2.12.14 1150mg, 3.2.14 1100mg, 3.18.14 1075mg, 4/14 updose to 1100mg, 6.1.14 900 mg capsules 7.8.14 810mg, 8.17.14 725mg, 8.24.24 700mg...10.22.14 487.5mg, 3.9.15 475mg, 4.1.15 462.5mg 4.21.15 450mg 8.11.15 375mg, 11.28.15 362.5mg, back to 375mg four days later, 3.4.16 updose to 475 (too much going on to risk trouble)

9/4/13 Toprol-XL 25mg daily for sudden hypertension, tapered 11.12.13 through 5.3.14, last 10 days or so switched to atenolol

7.4.14 Started Walsh Protocol

56 years old

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Starting to feel a bit better. Cut back on leafy greens too but starting back with those today, going to wait a while before taking any more MTHF.

 

I wonder if now that I'm down to a lower dose of Lamictal I just don't need as much. Seems possible.

 

All this methylation stuff is way too complex, I'm going to cross my fingers and hope my body can figure it out for itself with good diet and a bit of occasional supplementation.

Started on Prozac and Xanax in 1992 for PTSD after an assault. One drug led to more, the usual story. Got sicker and sicker, but believed I needed the drugs for my "underlying disease". Long story...lost everything. Life savings, home, physical and mental health, relationships, friendships, ability to work, everything. Amitryptiline, Prozac, bupropion, buspirone, flurazepam, diazepam, alprazolam, Paxil, citalopram, lamotrigine, gabapentin...probably more I've forgotten. 

Started multidrug taper in Feb 2010.  Doing a very slow microtaper, down to low doses now and feeling SO much better, getting my old personality and my brain back! Able to work full time, have a full social life, and cope with stress better than ever. Not perfect, but much better. After 23 lost years. Big Pharma has a lot to answer for. And "medicine for profit" is just not a great idea.

 

Feb 15 2010:  300 mg Neurontin  200 Lamictal   10 Celexa      0.65 Xanax   and 5 mg Ambien 

Feb 10 2014:   62 Lamictal    1.1 Celexa         0.135 Xanax    1.8 Valium

Feb 10 2015:   50 Lamictal      0.875 Celexa    0.11 Xanax      1.5 Valium

Feb 15 2016:   47.5 Lamictal   0.75 Celexa      0.0875 Xanax    1.42 Valium    

2/12/20             12                       0.045               0.007                   1 

May 2021            7                       0.01                  0.0037                1

Feb 2022            6                      0!!!                     0.00167               0.98                2.5 mg Ambien

Oct 2022       4.5 mg Lamictal    (off Celexa, off Xanax)   0.95 Valium    Ambien, 1/4 to 1/2 of a 5 mg tablet 

 

I'm not a doctor. Any advice I give is just my civilian opinion.

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Okay, definitely feeling better now.

 

Eating lots of spring greens from the garden and I think I may just put off taking the folate again for a while. Wow, I've had to supplement it for so long, this is a little scary. But maybe it's the lower Lamictal dosing.

Started on Prozac and Xanax in 1992 for PTSD after an assault. One drug led to more, the usual story. Got sicker and sicker, but believed I needed the drugs for my "underlying disease". Long story...lost everything. Life savings, home, physical and mental health, relationships, friendships, ability to work, everything. Amitryptiline, Prozac, bupropion, buspirone, flurazepam, diazepam, alprazolam, Paxil, citalopram, lamotrigine, gabapentin...probably more I've forgotten. 

Started multidrug taper in Feb 2010.  Doing a very slow microtaper, down to low doses now and feeling SO much better, getting my old personality and my brain back! Able to work full time, have a full social life, and cope with stress better than ever. Not perfect, but much better. After 23 lost years. Big Pharma has a lot to answer for. And "medicine for profit" is just not a great idea.

 

Feb 15 2010:  300 mg Neurontin  200 Lamictal   10 Celexa      0.65 Xanax   and 5 mg Ambien 

Feb 10 2014:   62 Lamictal    1.1 Celexa         0.135 Xanax    1.8 Valium

Feb 10 2015:   50 Lamictal      0.875 Celexa    0.11 Xanax      1.5 Valium

Feb 15 2016:   47.5 Lamictal   0.75 Celexa      0.0875 Xanax    1.42 Valium    

2/12/20             12                       0.045               0.007                   1 

May 2021            7                       0.01                  0.0037                1

Feb 2022            6                      0!!!                     0.00167               0.98                2.5 mg Ambien

Oct 2022       4.5 mg Lamictal    (off Celexa, off Xanax)   0.95 Valium    Ambien, 1/4 to 1/2 of a 5 mg tablet 

 

I'm not a doctor. Any advice I give is just my civilian opinion.

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  • 3 months later...
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I just talked to an alternative MD who is trying to unravel MTHFR treatment. He's been studying Amy Yasko, etc. He said Yasko is probably the top expert, but her writings are impenetrable. You can spend a great deal money on tests, but treatment is still going to be by trial and error.

 

In a conversation with another doctor, we noted that 40% of the population has MTHFR variations (I have the two most common ones, both heterozygous). That means these variations are NORMAL. He pointed out that to be that common in the gene pool, the variations must have conferred some kind of evolutionary advantage. To which I responded: "Yeah, maybe it means you can survive without B vitamins."

 

Since testing don't show much that's meaningful (for example, high blood serum B12 can still indicate a deficiency because the blood tests don't show how much is getting into cells), I suppose successful treatment would result in a reduction in symptoms -- a functional medicine approach.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Mensahmedical.com has recently posted a video on MTHFR and methylation. I don't know how to assess information that differs between researchers, but their perspective is different, particularly regarding the impact of snp's and the use of folate/folic acid, etc.

 

They believe direct genetic testing has not yet achieved much useful potential. The impact of a mutation in a snp is generally dependent on the complexity of the enzyme or protein it codes for. In a large enzyme (the atomic weight of MTHFR is about 500--huge) one snp will have much less impact than a snp in a tiny enzyme.

 

Regarding Deplin, Metfolin, etc., they believe folic acid/folate does contribute a methyl group to a cell's cytoplasm, but it takes methyl from the cell's nucleus which can be quite detrimental for undermethylated people. Who knows.

 

If someone listens to the whole thing, Dr. Mensah's presentation ends with a slide you probably won't like (and there's a lot of info in the Q and A after). I would just say one thing I have learned is to glean what I can from many different perspectives. I may not agree with everything, but I learn something from almost everyone.

1st round Prozac 1989/90, clear depression symptoms. 2nd round Prozac started 1999 when admitted to dr. I was tired. Prozac pooped out, switch to Cymbalta 3/2006. Diagnosed with bipolar disorder due to mania 6/2006--then I was taken abruptly off Cymbalta and didn't know I had SSRI withdrawal. Lots of meds for my intractable "bipolar" symptoms.

Zyprexa started about 9/06, mostly 5mg. Tapered 4/12 through12/29/12

Wellbutrin. XL 300 mg started 1/07, tapered 1/18/13 through 7/8/13

Oxazepam mostly continuously since 6/06, 30mg since 12/12, tapered 1.17.14 through 8.26.15

11/06 Lithium 600mg twice daily, 2.2.14 400mg TID DIY liquid, 2.12.14 1150mg, 3.2.14 1100mg, 3.18.14 1075mg, 4/14 updose to 1100mg, 6.1.14 900 mg capsules 7.8.14 810mg, 8.17.14 725mg, 8.24.24 700mg...10.22.14 487.5mg, 3.9.15 475mg, 4.1.15 462.5mg 4.21.15 450mg 8.11.15 375mg, 11.28.15 362.5mg, back to 375mg four days later, 3.4.16 updose to 475 (too much going on to risk trouble)

9/4/13 Toprol-XL 25mg daily for sudden hypertension, tapered 11.12.13 through 5.3.14, last 10 days or so switched to atenolol

7.4.14 Started Walsh Protocol

56 years old

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