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The importance of MTHFR, methylation, & B vitamins: Eat leafy green veggies!


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The upshot of the articles above is that MTHFR status is generally irrelevant, except for very, very rare homozygous combinations, which are still under investigation.

 

Inadequate B vitamins, particularly B12, are quite common in the modern diet. As we get older, our ability to make B12 diminishes.

 

It may very well be that supplementation of vitamin B12, or other B vitamins, makes you feel better. (Many people with withdrawal syndrome cannot take B vitamins at all because they find them too stimulating.) Whether this "treats" a MTHFR variation (which, after all, is NORMAL and does not indicate a disease state) is unknown.

 

The value of measuring homocysteine is limited, as apparently only very high homocysteine is medically meaningful.

 

Cyanocobalamin will release a very tiny amount of cyanide as it is metabolized. There is very little risk from it. If it's the only kind you can get, I would not worry about it.

 

PS If you're getting good results from cyanocobalamin, you don't require methylcobalamin. Your methylation of cyanocobalamin is working fine.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

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Good to know.  TY Alto.

Late 2023- gone to emeritus status, inactive, don't @ me, I can check who I've posted on, and I'm not really here like I used to be......thanks.

Started with psycho meds/psychiatric care circa 1988.  In retrospect, and on contemplation, situational overwhelm.

Rounding up to 30 years of medications(30 medication trials, poly-pharmacy maximum was 3 at one time).

5/28/2015-off Adderal salts 2.5mg. (I had been on that since hospital 10/2014)

12/2015---just holding, holding, holding, with trileptal/oxcarb at 75 mg. 1/2 tab at hs.  My last psycho med ever!  Tapered @ 10% every 4 weeks, sometimes 2 weeks to

2016 Dec 16 medication free!!

Longer signature post here, with current supplements.

Herb and alcohol free since 5/15/2016.  And.....I quit smoking 11/2021. Lapsed.  Redo of quit smoking 9/28/2022.  Can you say Hallelujah?(took me long enough)💜

None of my posts are intended as medical advice.  Please discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical provider.  My success story:  Blue skies ahead, clear sailing

 

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  • 2 months later...
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It's absolutely essential that anyone concerned about their MTHFR polymorphism read this interview with naturopath Ben Lynch, one of the foremost experts on MTHFR, on naturopath Chris Kresser's site. My highlights below:

What Influences Methylation? An Interview with Dr. Ben Lynch
December 10, 2015 by Chris Kresser
 
 

Chris Kresser: .... One of the things I like to say is the mutation of a gene doesn’t necessarily guarantee dysregulation of that gene. In other words, mutation doesn’t mean that you absolutely will have a dysfunctional gene. It means it’s more likely to dysfunction....
 
Dr. Ben Lynch: Well, just to keep it very simple and overreaching and broad .... we’ll just say that you find that you do have a genetic mutation, like MTHFR, and you’re like, “Oh, crap,” but the reality is it may or may not be causing a problem.
 
....
 
Dr. Ben Lynch: So I look at genetic polymorphisms as a degree of how much you overburden the system, and the more work that you create for that said gene, then you have to support it more. And a genetic polymorphism may affect it or it may not.
 
Chris Kresser: Right, so we’re talking about predispositions here, it sounds like—more a question of, you know, someone who has a polymorphism in a particular gene may be predisposed to that gene functioning less optimally, especially when you add a number of environmental challenges that we’re facing today, like poor diet, heavy metal toxicity, dysbiosis, disrupted gut microbiome, air pollution both indoor and outdoor, nutrient imbalances, a relative excess of copper and deficiency of zinc, etc., etc., etc.—in a nutshell, the modern lifestyle, right?
 
Dr. Ben Lynch: Yeah. Let’s pick a simple gene to go with. We’ll talk about MTHFR because it’s the golden child on the block for some reason.
 
....
 
Dr. Ben Lynch: Say, you identify that you have this MTHFR gene problem, and you go to the internet and you read about, and you’re like, “Oh, crap. I have this.” I have it. I went, “Oh, crap,” when I read about it. I have one copy of 677 and one copy of 1298, personally, and so do a couple of my kids, and I was really concerned about it, and then I started learning that, well, you can actually get the same nutrient that the MTHFR enzyme produces itself by eating leafy greens.
 
Chris Kresser: Right.
 
Dr. Ben Lynch: So if you’re eating a bunch of leafy greens, then that MTHFR enzyme isn’t really doing too much of a problem for you, and if you’re not drinking that much alcohol, then you don’t really have that much of a burden either, along with other things.

 

 

In short, eat leafy greens.

 

I hope these statements by Ben Lynch (which, by the way, arise from a conversation I had with him on his Web site years ago) are the beginning of the end of the MTHFR "treatment" fad.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

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http://health.clevelandclinic.org/2013/09/a-genetic-test-you-dont-need/
 
A Genetic Test You Don’t Need
Testing MTHFR is usually unnecessary

September 27, 2013 / By Charis Eng, MD, PhD
Founding Chairwoman of the Genomic Medicine Institute
 

As a geneticist and researcher, I believe in the power of genetic testing. By identifying genetic mutations, we can improve care and save lives.
But just because we can test something doesn’t always mean we should.

Take the MTHFR gene, for example. MTHFR codes for an enzyme that helps your body convert homocysteine into an amino acid that processes proteins. People with mutations or variations of MTHFR may end up with homocystinuria, a disorder that affects the eyes, joints and other parts of the body. High homocysteine levels also have been connected to heart disease and strokes.

There is a genetic test for MTHFR variations. But there’s also a cheaper and more accurate way to test for whether MTHFR variations are causing disease. We simply check the levels of homocysteine in the blood. If levels are high, we can react appropriately. If homocysteine levels are normal — even if there is an MTHFR variation — then nothing needs to be done clinically.

In other words, the homocysteine levels determine our actions, not the MTHFR test results.
....
Not only is the test for homocysteine levels simple, but so are the solutions. People with high homocysteine levels typically respond well to supplementation with vitamins such as B6, B12, and folate or folic acid.

 

The same is true of other disorders that might be related to MTHFR. For example, mutations in MTHFR have been associated with some neural tube defects in babies. But rather than having an unnecessary test for MTHFR gene variations, pregnant women should simply take prenatal vitamins that contain higher folate.

 

Folate effectively bypasses the problem — and it’s benign at the doses that come in vitamins.
....

 

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

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Here is a common-sense way to improve methylation without relying on expensive genetic tests and interpretations thereof.
 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-mark-hyman/nutrition-tips-folic-acid_b_601126.html

Nutrition Tips: Folic Acid: Killer or Cure-All?
Mark Hyman, MD Updated: 11/17/2011

 

....We are all biochemically individual and genetically unique, and about 35 percent of us have a genetic variation in a gene called MTHFR that helps neutralize the folic acid. If this doesn't work well, then more of the folic acid accumulates from the fortified food and supplements we consume. Those who have this gene are at increased risk of colon cancer because they produce more pre-cancerous colon polyps. In fact, high dose folate supplementation in these people reduced their risk of polyps. (iv)

 

The good news is that you can take the nature-made form of this nutrient -- called methyl folate (and there are a few forms of that too). This is what should be in food and vitamin supplements. Many conscientious companies are now using only this form of the nutrient, but it is more expensive.

 

Here's what you should do:

 

Don't eat fortified foods! If it needs to be fortified with folic acid, that is because it has been impoverished and refined in the first place (think white flour, white rice, cereals and processed foods). Just eat real, whole fresh food!

 

Look at your supplement label! If it says "folic acid" then find another vitamin that has the words "L 5 methyl-tetrahydrofolate" or "5 formyl tetrahydrofolate" on the label.

 

Now for those who want know a little bit more about the reason why folate and its companions B6 and B12 are the most critical and health promoting hit parades in the nutrient world.

....

Methylation is a key biochemical process that is essential for the proper function of almost all of your body's systems. It occurs billions of times every second; it helps repair your DNA on a daily basis; it controls which genes are turned on or turned off; it controls homocysteine (an unhealthy compound that can damage blood vessels); it helps recycle molecules needed for detoxification; and it helps maintain mood and keep inflammation in check.

 

To keep methylation running smoothly you need optimal levels of B vitamins. Without enough B vitamins methylation breaks down, and the results can be catastrophic. In these cases we see more birth defects like spina bifida (as with the Chinese babies), more cases of Down's syndrome, and more miscarriage.

A breakdown in methylation also puts you at higher risk for conditions like osteoporosis, diabetes, cervical dysplasia and cancer, colon cancer, lung cancer, depression, pediatric cognitive dysfunction (mood and other behavioral disorders), dementia, and stroke. And like Mr. Roberts and Mr. McNally, you may be at higher risk for cardiovascular disease.

 

To avoid all of these problems, the key is to optimize methylation. That means avoiding the things that cause your methylation to break down, testing to find out how well your methylation is working and including the things that support proper methylation. Let's look at how to do that.

 

8 Factors that Affect Your Methylation Process

 

Eight major factors negatively impact methylation. They are:

 

1. Genetics. Like an estimated 20-30 percent of us, you could be genetically predisposed to high homocysteine.

 

2. Poor diet. The word "folate" comes from "foliage." You need to eat plenty of leafy greens, beans, fruit, and whole grains to get adequate levels of vitamins B6 and B12, betaine and folate (all in the right nature made forms). Egg yolks, meat, liver and oily fish are the main dietary sources of vitamin B12 -- so long-term vegan diets can be a problem. Plus, certain compounds can raise levels of homocysteine and deplete the B vitamins. These include excess animal protein, sugar, saturated fat, coffee and alcohol. Irradiation of food depletes nutrients, so foods treated this way may be lower in B vitamins, too.

 

3. Smoking. The carbon monoxide from cigarette smoke inactivates vitamin B6.

 

4. Malabsorption. Conditions like digestive diseases, food allergies, and even aging can reduce absorption of nutrients.

 

5. Decreased stomach acid. Aging and other conditions can reduce stomach acid -- and therefore absorption of vitamin B12.

 

6. Medications. Drugs like acid blockers, methotrexate (for cancer and arthritis and other autoimmune diseases), oral contraceptives, HCTZ or hydrochlorthiazide (for high blood pressure) and Dilantin (for seizures) can all affect levels of B vitamins.

 

7. Other conditions. These include hypothyroidism, kidney failure or having only one kidney, cancer and pregnancy.

 

8. Toxic exposures. Some toxins such as mercury can interfere with vitamin production.

 

Watch out for these factors and you will go a long way toward protecting your methylation.

 

Measuring Your Own Methylation Process

 

To find out if your methylation process is optimal, ask your doctor for the following tests:

 

1. Complete blood count. ....large red blood cells or anemia can be a sign of poor methylation. Red blood cells with a mean corpuscular volume (MCV) greater than 95 can signal a methylation problem.

 

2. Homocysteine. This is one of the most important tests you can ask for. The normal level is less than 13, but the ideal level is likely between six and eight.

 

3. Serum or urinary methylmalonic acid. This is a more specific test for vitamin B12 insufficiency. Your levels may be elevated even if you have a normal serum vitamin B12 or homocysteine level.

 

4. Specific urinary amino and organic acids. These can be used to look for unusual metabolism disorders involving vitamins B6 or B12 or folate, which may not show up just by checking methylmalonic acid or homocysteine.

 

12 Tips to Optimize Your Methylation Process

 

Just as there are many causes of poor methylation, there are lots of things that support its proper functioning. Here's how to optimize methylation and prevent conditions like heart disease, cancer, dementia, depression and more.

 

1. Eat more dark, leafy greens. You want to eat l cup a day of vegetables like bok choy, escarole, Swiss chard, kale, watercress, spinach, dandelion, mustard, collard or beet greens. These are among the most abundant sources of the nutrients needed for optimal methylation. You can't get too much folate from food.

 

2. Get more Bs in your diet. Good food sources include sunflower seeds and wheat germ (vitamin B6), fish and eggs (vitamin B6 and B12), cheese (B12), beans and walnuts (vitamin B6 and folate), leafy dark green vegetables, asparagus, almonds, whole grains (folate) and liver (all three).

 

3. Minimize animal protein, sugar and saturated fat. Animal protein directly increases homocysteine. Sugar and saturated fat deplete your body's vitamin stores.

 

4. Avoid processed or refined foods and canned foods. These are depleted in vitamins.

 

5. Avoid caffeine. Excess amounts can deplete your B vitamin levels.

 

6. Limit alcohol to three drinks a week. More than this can deplete your B vitamin levels.

 

7. Don't smoke. As noted above, smoking inactivates vitamin B6.

 

8. Avoid medications that interfere with methylation. See notes on this above.

 

9. Keep the bacteria in your gut healthy. Take probiotic supplements and use other measures to make sure the bacteria in your gut are healthy so you can properly absorb the vitamins you do get.

 

10. Improve stomach acid. Use herbal digestives (bitters) or taking supplemental HCl.

 

11. Take supplements that prevent damage from homocysteine. Antioxidants protect you from homocysteine damage. Also make sure you support methylation with supplements like magnesium and zinc.

 

12. Supplement to help support proper homocysteine metabolism. Talk to your doctor to determine the best doses and forms for you. Here are a few suggestions:

 

• Folates Amounts can vary based on individual needs from 200 mcg to one mg. Some people may also need to take preformed folate (folinic acid or five formylTHF, or five methyl folates) to bypass some of the steps in activating folic acid.

 

• Vitamin B6: Take two to five mg a day. Some people may need up to 250 mg or even special "active" B6 (pyridoxyl-5-phosphate) to achieve the greatest effect. Doses higher than 500 mg may cause nerve injury.

 

• Vitamin B12: Doses of 500 mcg may be needed to protect against heart disease. Oral vitamin B12 isn't well absorbed; you may need up to 1 or 2 mg daily. Ask your doctor about B12 shots or doses you can take under the tongue.

 

• Betaine: This amino acid derivative is needed in doses from 500 to 3,000 mg a day, depending on the person.

 

 

 

Please note that B vitamin supplementation may be too activating for people whose nervous systems have been sensitized by withdrawal. Until your nervous system settles down, eat more fresh leafy green vegetables, nuts, and seeds. This will help you get the B vitamins you need.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

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  • 3 months later...

Found a neat chart today 

 

https://www.mindmeister.com/12694596/mthfr-related-health-problems

 

MTHFR and related health problems 

 

I found it here while looking at vitamins

 

http://www.jdmoyer.com/2011/09/03/b-vitamins-mood-and-methylation-its-complicated/

 

The last site has a list of psych problems caused or cured by vitamins including Bs and folate. 

 

"

 
  1. “Histapenic” (low histamine) types are “over-methylators.”  They tend to have higher methyl to folate ratios, which can result in the overproduction of dopaminenorepinephrine, and serotonin (via the BH4 rate-controlling process in catecholamine synthesis).  These types can benefit greatly from increased dietary and supplemental folate, B12, and other nutrients.  Here’s Dr. Walsh describing over-methylators on youtube.
  2. “Histadelic” (high histamine) types are “under-methylators.” They have low methyl to folate ratios, which can result in lower levels of dopamine, norepinephrine, and serotonin.  These types can benefit from supplemental methionine, SAMe, and inositol (methyl donors).  Here’s Dr. Walsh describing under-methylators.
  3. The third type, “Pyroluria”, is a genetic disorder which increases B6 and zinc urinary excretion, resulting in deficiencies of both nutrients and increased oxidative stress.  Here’s Dr. Walsh describing pyroluria.

While mainstream psychiatry has generally rejected the field of orthomolecular psychiatry in its entirety, some reputable papers (such as this one, published in The Lancet, and this one) allow that there may be relationships between folate levels, methylation processes, and mental illness."

Plenty more at the site. 

I know for sure I react badly to Vit B6 and was hoping to see if that was listed depression from B6.. but I did not see it. 

WARNING THIS WILL BE LONG
Had a car accident in 85
Codeine was the pain med when I was release from hosp continuous use till 89
Given PROZAC by a specialist to help with nerve pain in my leg 89-90 not sure which year
Was not told a thing about it being a psych med thought it was a pain killer no info about psych side effects I went nuts had hallucinations. As I had a head injury and was diagnosed with a concussion in 85 I was sent to a head injury clinic in 1990 five years after the accident. I don't think they knew I had been on prozac I did not think it a big deal and never did finish the bottle of pills. I had tests of course lots of them. Was put into a pain clinic and given amitriptyline which stopped the withdrawal but had many side effects. But I could sleep something I had not done in a very long time the pain lessened. My mother got cancer in 94 they switched my meds to Zoloft to help deal with this pressure as I was her main care giver she died in 96. I stopped zoloft in 96 had withdrawal was put on paxil went nutty quit it ct put on resperidol quit it ct had withdrawal was put on Effexor... 2years later celexa was added 20mg then increased to 40mg huge personality change went wild. Did too fast taper off Celexa 05 as I felt unwell for a long time prior... quit Effexor 150mg ct 07 found ****** 8 months into withdrawal learned some things was banned from there in 08 have kept learning since. there is really not enough room here to put my history but I have a lot of opinions about a lot of things especially any of the drugs mentioned above.
One thing I would like to add here is this tidbit ALL OPIATES INCREASE SEROTONIN it is not a huge jump to being in chronic pain to being put on an ssri/snri and opiates will affect your antidepressants and your thinking.

As I do not update much I will put my quit date Nov. 17 2007 I quit Effexor cold turkey. 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1096-introducing-myself-btdt/

There is a crack in everything ..That's how the light gets in :)

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http://www.jdmoyer.com/2011/09/03/b-vitamins-mood-and-methylation-its-complicated/

"Designing Your Own Supplement Program

Short of genetic testing (which is now a realistic and affordable option), looking at your family history from a health perspective is probably a good place to start when considering your own supplement program."

that link goes to 23 and me ... some people have had trouble figuring it out... but the information on the link at the top my be helpful to them. 

  For example:

If Alzhemier’s runs in your family, consider supplementing with niacinamide.  Niacinamide may also be effective in reducing anxiety, including severe social anxiety.

If there are cases of cancer in your family, consider increasing folate levels from food sources and vitamins.  B6 may provide additional protection against colon cancer.

If you fall somewhere along the autism spectrum, considering supplementing with zinc + manganese, and restricting copper.

If you have asthma, you might try experimenting with a paleo or gluten-free diet, and supplementing with fish oil, evening primrose oil, magnesium, and C. Some people have experienced relief from asthma symptoms by increasing vitamins B5 and B6.

 

If you think you might be experiencing negative side effects from a multivitamin, go cold turkey and see how you feel.  For people with either or both polymorphisms of the MTHFR gene, supplemental folic acid may actually be harmful.  Take methyfolate instead, or just eat more leafy greens and nutritious food and don’t take a multi.

WARNING THIS WILL BE LONG
Had a car accident in 85
Codeine was the pain med when I was release from hosp continuous use till 89
Given PROZAC by a specialist to help with nerve pain in my leg 89-90 not sure which year
Was not told a thing about it being a psych med thought it was a pain killer no info about psych side effects I went nuts had hallucinations. As I had a head injury and was diagnosed with a concussion in 85 I was sent to a head injury clinic in 1990 five years after the accident. I don't think they knew I had been on prozac I did not think it a big deal and never did finish the bottle of pills. I had tests of course lots of them. Was put into a pain clinic and given amitriptyline which stopped the withdrawal but had many side effects. But I could sleep something I had not done in a very long time the pain lessened. My mother got cancer in 94 they switched my meds to Zoloft to help deal with this pressure as I was her main care giver she died in 96. I stopped zoloft in 96 had withdrawal was put on paxil went nutty quit it ct put on resperidol quit it ct had withdrawal was put on Effexor... 2years later celexa was added 20mg then increased to 40mg huge personality change went wild. Did too fast taper off Celexa 05 as I felt unwell for a long time prior... quit Effexor 150mg ct 07 found ****** 8 months into withdrawal learned some things was banned from there in 08 have kept learning since. there is really not enough room here to put my history but I have a lot of opinions about a lot of things especially any of the drugs mentioned above.
One thing I would like to add here is this tidbit ALL OPIATES INCREASE SEROTONIN it is not a huge jump to being in chronic pain to being put on an ssri/snri and opiates will affect your antidepressants and your thinking.

As I do not update much I will put my quit date Nov. 17 2007 I quit Effexor cold turkey. 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1096-introducing-myself-btdt/

There is a crack in everything ..That's how the light gets in :)

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  • 2 months later...

Just found the below online

 

methylenetetrahydrofolate reductase, or MTHFR, was defective in many people worldwide. Estimates state that up to 60% of the public are affected by these genetic variations.

 

 

MTHFR variations can cause insomnia, anxiety, depression, inflammation, heavy metal buildup, increased pain, neurological symptoms, chronic fatigue, elevated homocysteine levels, heart disease and many other conditions.

 

it was suggested that MTHFR variation is the reason some people have more difficulties withdrawing ssris.

 

I would like to hear about other's thoughts and/or experience?

Does it worth to get tested for? What can be done to help in terms of WD if the results confirm MTHFR variation of any type? 

Drug free Sep. 23 2017

2009 Mar.: lexapro 10mg for headache for 2 weeks.

2009-2012: on and off 1/4 to 1/3 of 10mg

2012 June--2013 Jan,: 1/4-1/3 of 10mg generic, bad jaw pain

2013 Jan-Mar: 10 mg generic. severe jaw and head pain;

2013 Mar--Aug. started tapering (liquid ever since) from 10 to 5 (one step) then gradually down to 2.25 mg by July. first ever panic attack, severe head/jaw pain

2013 Aug.: back to 2.75 mg; Nov: back to Brand Lex. 2.75mg -- 3mg,

2014 June: stopped PPI, head pressure/numbness. up-dosed 4.5mg, severe reaction mental symptoms added on

2014 Aug--2015 Aug: Micro taper down to 3.2mg, .025mg (<1%) cut holding 2-3 weeks.

2015 Aug 15th, Accidental one dose of 4.2mg. worsening brain non-functional, swollen head, body, coma like, DR

2016 Feb., started dosing 10am through 11 pm everyday 2/13--3.2mg, 3/15-- 2.9mg, 4/19-- 2.6mg, 6/26--2.2mg, 7/22 --1.9mg, 8/16--1.8mg,8/31--1.7m g, 9/13--1.6mg, 9/27--1.5mg, 10/8--1.4mg, 10/14--1.3mg, 11/1--1.2mg, 11/29--1.1mg, 12/12--1mg, 12/22--0.9mg

2017: 1/7--0.8mg, 1/15--0.7mg, 1/17--0.6mg, 1/20--0.52, 1/21--0.4mg, 1/22--0.26, 1/23--0.2, 2/13--0.13mg, 2/20--0.06mg, 3/18--0.13mg, 6/1--0.12mg, 7/6--0.1mg, 7/14--0.08mg, 8/17--0.04mg, 8/20--0.03mg, 8/28--0.02mg, 9/6--0.0205mg, 9/8--0.02mg, 9/17--0.015mg, 9/20--0.01mg, 9/21--0.0048mg, 9/22--0.0001mg,

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I don't think knowing the answer would do anything in terms of withdrawal. This info could be helpful in terms of choosing one drug over another (so they say), but when it comes to trying to reduce a drug, the problem is about the compensatory changes while on the drug making coming off difficult, not the drug itself.

 

That's my take, though I'm curious to know my status.  Maybe someone else will have another take on it.

 

SG

Started ADs back around 1995 after bad break-up, starting with Prozac.  Switched to Wellbutrin, and then to Effexor in 2002
Effexor XR 2002-2014 up to 225 mg at one point, down to 37.5 mg towards end but back up to 75 mg in 2014; now realize I had W/D as I dropped down, memory very poor about history.  Extreme emotions, poor concentration as I stepped back down, didn't connect the dots!
Summer 2014 reduced to 0 very quickly, was sick of anhedonia/sexual dysfunction due to meds, depression never controlled if not worse. Didn't recognize WD since symptoms built slowly (thought I had ADD! and menopausal on top of it), starting with severe sweats, very bad cog-fog and memory issues, culminating in weight loss, severe anxiety and depression, panic, severe apathy and insomnia by eight months off.  Saw p-doc who put me on Remeron, increased from 7.5 mg/day to 37.5 mg by May 22, 2015; still doing very badly though able to sleep.

June 1. 2015 Reinstated Effexor XR 37.5 mg, Remeron dropped to 30 mg PM. Immediate relief of symptoms, like nothing had ever happened!  Joined SA and began on advice of friend who recognized it was WD all along! Began tapering in July 2015.

Been tapering both meds ever since, focusing on one more than the other or doing no more than 5% of each per month.

12 mg Effexor and 5.8 mg Remeron (mirtazapine SolTabs to make a solution with OraPlus) as of 5/4/2017 

Update 3/14/18: 2.9 mg Remeron and 6 mg Effexor; 6/10/18:  2.6 mg Remeron and 4.9 mg Effexor

 

My intro: http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/9313-squirrellygirl-effexor-withdrawal-etc/page-2#entry196679

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

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Please see above.

 

In my opinion, MTHFR variations are not relevant to withdrawal syndrome. They are more closely related to difficulties in absorbing B vitamins. Eating lots of greens can compensate.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Thanks so very much SG for merging the topic to the proper place and sharing your thoughts!

Thanks Alto for the very helpful comments and suggestion!

 

I started thinking about this from a recent experience taking some supplement of glutathione with added vitamin B12, B6 and D3. Very small amount for just twice caused immediate reaction with severe needling pain, anxious feeling and insomnia.

 

I'm glad we have this topic with in depth information and discussion.

Your quick responses helped me with a quick understanding and decision making. I'm done with that supplement and probably any supplement in future as long as I'm still on the road of tapering.

 

Best,

Lex

Drug free Sep. 23 2017

2009 Mar.: lexapro 10mg for headache for 2 weeks.

2009-2012: on and off 1/4 to 1/3 of 10mg

2012 June--2013 Jan,: 1/4-1/3 of 10mg generic, bad jaw pain

2013 Jan-Mar: 10 mg generic. severe jaw and head pain;

2013 Mar--Aug. started tapering (liquid ever since) from 10 to 5 (one step) then gradually down to 2.25 mg by July. first ever panic attack, severe head/jaw pain

2013 Aug.: back to 2.75 mg; Nov: back to Brand Lex. 2.75mg -- 3mg,

2014 June: stopped PPI, head pressure/numbness. up-dosed 4.5mg, severe reaction mental symptoms added on

2014 Aug--2015 Aug: Micro taper down to 3.2mg, .025mg (<1%) cut holding 2-3 weeks.

2015 Aug 15th, Accidental one dose of 4.2mg. worsening brain non-functional, swollen head, body, coma like, DR

2016 Feb., started dosing 10am through 11 pm everyday 2/13--3.2mg, 3/15-- 2.9mg, 4/19-- 2.6mg, 6/26--2.2mg, 7/22 --1.9mg, 8/16--1.8mg,8/31--1.7m g, 9/13--1.6mg, 9/27--1.5mg, 10/8--1.4mg, 10/14--1.3mg, 11/1--1.2mg, 11/29--1.1mg, 12/12--1mg, 12/22--0.9mg

2017: 1/7--0.8mg, 1/15--0.7mg, 1/17--0.6mg, 1/20--0.52, 1/21--0.4mg, 1/22--0.26, 1/23--0.2, 2/13--0.13mg, 2/20--0.06mg, 3/18--0.13mg, 6/1--0.12mg, 7/6--0.1mg, 7/14--0.08mg, 8/17--0.04mg, 8/20--0.03mg, 8/28--0.02mg, 9/6--0.0205mg, 9/8--0.02mg, 9/17--0.015mg, 9/20--0.01mg, 9/21--0.0048mg, 9/22--0.0001mg,

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  • 3 weeks later...

There is a mistake at the beginning in what he says he had it backwards.. a bit but it is about histamine and how we deal with serotoin type drugs ect...

 

http://www.beyondmthfr.com/mao-a-understanding-the-snp/

 

some input please

 

lots more on the site

One of the best parts of researching methylation is meeting people who ask very good questions.  One very good question came up the other day about MAO-A and whether or not it was sped up or slowed down.  This question is important considering how much impact the MAO system has on how we handle stress and neurotransmitter balance.  Taking this idea further, because MAO enzyme degrade catecholamines (and histamine BTW!) we NEED to know if MAO-A and -B are going FASTER or SLOWER.  This is the question that I was asked and I have found the research that answers this for us. 

MAO-A comes in two different flavors – low activity or high activity.  The gene that is tested for on Sterling’s MTHFRSupport.com App is the rs6323 variant.  As I poured through my research looking for the answer to whether or not MAO-A was sped up or down, I found this research nugget:

“We examined polymorphisms in genes encoding the catabolic enzymes catechol-O-methyltransferase and monoamine oxidase A. Subjects with monoamine oxidase A G/T polymorphisms (rs6323) coding for the highest activity form of the enzyme (G or G/G) had a significantly lower magnitude of placebo response than those with other genotypes.” – J Clin Psychopharmacol. 2009 Aug;29(4):372-7. PMID: 19593178

This was a huge find!  It basically proves that anyone with MAO-A rs6323 +/- or +/+ for the T allele has slowed activity of the enzyme (if you don’t have a G allele, then your MAO-A is slowed down).  This means conversely that those with MAO-A rs6323 -/- on the variant report have the high activity enzyme – aka the normal enzyme and the G/G genotype.  MAO systems exists outside the brain in cells like RBCs and thrombocytes.  But in the brain the MAO system is inducible.  Anything that injure mitochondria such as oxidative stress, toxin exposure, and the aging process in general will cause an increase in MAO activity regardless of genetics.  That is what inducible means, it can increase due to environmental signals regardless of the genetics – a key point to remember!

Aging is equivalent to DNA damage and as mitochondria are destroyed int the brain from toxins/stress/malnutrition then we are effectively aging faster. These effects plus SNPs cause increases in enzyme speed of the MAO system, esp. MAO-B (less clarity when it comes to MAO-A but likely same pattern since molecularly almost identical). Repeat: aging, inflammation, toxins or anything else that hurts the mitochondria will INCREASE the speed of both MAO-A and MAO-B. MAO-B is found mostly in the brain and therefore is more important with neurological issues like Parkinson’s disease, where it has long been known that MAO-B is sped up!  The take away is that its all about MAO system going too fast and causing problems.

This doesn’t mean that people with MAO-A rs6323 -/- will never have the same issues as those with MAO rs6323 +/+.  It simply means for people with MAO-A ++ or +- one of the main enzymes responsible for breaking down catecholamines is going slower genetically.  If you don’t know which version of MAO-A you have, all you need to do is get your 23andme report and run it through MTHFRSupport.com’s variant report.  This will tell you whether MAO-A is sped up or slowed down.

Yours in Health,

Dr. Rostenberg

"

WARNING THIS WILL BE LONG
Had a car accident in 85
Codeine was the pain med when I was release from hosp continuous use till 89
Given PROZAC by a specialist to help with nerve pain in my leg 89-90 not sure which year
Was not told a thing about it being a psych med thought it was a pain killer no info about psych side effects I went nuts had hallucinations. As I had a head injury and was diagnosed with a concussion in 85 I was sent to a head injury clinic in 1990 five years after the accident. I don't think they knew I had been on prozac I did not think it a big deal and never did finish the bottle of pills. I had tests of course lots of them. Was put into a pain clinic and given amitriptyline which stopped the withdrawal but had many side effects. But I could sleep something I had not done in a very long time the pain lessened. My mother got cancer in 94 they switched my meds to Zoloft to help deal with this pressure as I was her main care giver she died in 96. I stopped zoloft in 96 had withdrawal was put on paxil went nutty quit it ct put on resperidol quit it ct had withdrawal was put on Effexor... 2years later celexa was added 20mg then increased to 40mg huge personality change went wild. Did too fast taper off Celexa 05 as I felt unwell for a long time prior... quit Effexor 150mg ct 07 found ****** 8 months into withdrawal learned some things was banned from there in 08 have kept learning since. there is really not enough room here to put my history but I have a lot of opinions about a lot of things especially any of the drugs mentioned above.
One thing I would like to add here is this tidbit ALL OPIATES INCREASE SEROTONIN it is not a huge jump to being in chronic pain to being put on an ssri/snri and opiates will affect your antidepressants and your thinking.

As I do not update much I will put my quit date Nov. 17 2007 I quit Effexor cold turkey. 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1096-introducing-myself-btdt/

There is a crack in everything ..That's how the light gets in :)

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tons of information on this site linked from the last...

 

https://mthfrsupport.com/?s=variant+

 

I have not been tested can't seem to get the tests...

WARNING THIS WILL BE LONG
Had a car accident in 85
Codeine was the pain med when I was release from hosp continuous use till 89
Given PROZAC by a specialist to help with nerve pain in my leg 89-90 not sure which year
Was not told a thing about it being a psych med thought it was a pain killer no info about psych side effects I went nuts had hallucinations. As I had a head injury and was diagnosed with a concussion in 85 I was sent to a head injury clinic in 1990 five years after the accident. I don't think they knew I had been on prozac I did not think it a big deal and never did finish the bottle of pills. I had tests of course lots of them. Was put into a pain clinic and given amitriptyline which stopped the withdrawal but had many side effects. But I could sleep something I had not done in a very long time the pain lessened. My mother got cancer in 94 they switched my meds to Zoloft to help deal with this pressure as I was her main care giver she died in 96. I stopped zoloft in 96 had withdrawal was put on paxil went nutty quit it ct put on resperidol quit it ct had withdrawal was put on Effexor... 2years later celexa was added 20mg then increased to 40mg huge personality change went wild. Did too fast taper off Celexa 05 as I felt unwell for a long time prior... quit Effexor 150mg ct 07 found ****** 8 months into withdrawal learned some things was banned from there in 08 have kept learning since. there is really not enough room here to put my history but I have a lot of opinions about a lot of things especially any of the drugs mentioned above.
One thing I would like to add here is this tidbit ALL OPIATES INCREASE SEROTONIN it is not a huge jump to being in chronic pain to being put on an ssri/snri and opiates will affect your antidepressants and your thinking.

As I do not update much I will put my quit date Nov. 17 2007 I quit Effexor cold turkey. 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1096-introducing-myself-btdt/

There is a crack in everything ..That's how the light gets in :)

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This is a very interesting thread.  I think as to MTHFR I come down where Alto is and that Mark Hyman's suggested approach makes the most sense.  Having said that, my personal genetic profile is a little big more complex.  Any thoughts welcome:

 

In addition to being heterozygous for MTHFR, I found that I am homozygous for the MAO A gene, otherwise known as the "warrior gene."  Here is some information on that for those that are interested.  http://www.beyondmthfr.com/a-genetic-cause-of-pain-and-anxiety-comt-mao-and-mthfr/

 

In essence, this is part of the methylation pathway along with MTHFR and the effect of having this SNP is that once does not break down neurotransmitters as quickly as they otherwise would.  This can lead to buildup of these things in the brain that can be further exacerbated by SSRIs among other things (also various foods, etc.).

 

My working hypothesis is that I had a tendency toward anxiety stemming at least in part from this genetic variant and, when that was placed under a serious stress test in my 20s, I became symptomatic in a manner that was ultimately addressed by a benzo and later by the SSRI.  Things were basically under control until I decided to taper off at which point the increased levels of anxiety, cortisol release, etc. that resulted from the withdrawal process placed additional stress on a system that was already predisposed toward stress and that led to overstimulation of the "fight or flight" mechanism such that I am in an "alerting" state on a regular basis.  This, in turn, leads to insomnia issues, heightened anxiety and depersonalization (secondary to anxiety as it generally is).

 

I think that in my case it would be a good idea to do a small test of B-12 as a starting point to see how I react to it.  In the past I've found some activation with B vitamins but I was using a B complex that had fairly high doses of all the B vitamins.  I'm thinking that trying a small amount of a liquid B-12 that I bought would give me the best chance of trying to adapt to the additional vitamin load without throwing my system into immediate overload.  Since I've been struggling of late, however, I've been loathe to try adding anything new.  Thus, the new bottle sits in my medicine cabinet waiting for its seal to be broken.

 

Assuming I try it this weekend, as I'm considering, I will report back.

 

Best,

 

Andy

Sertraline 50mg and Clonazapam .375mg from 2000 -- symptoms of dizziness Spring 2012

increased to .5 Clonazapam and 100mg Sertraline -- no improvement

Benzo microtaper from November 2012 to November 2014 (followed benzo sites "taper benzo first")

Started Sertraline taper in December 2014 cut by 25mg to 75mg; 62.5mg 1/1/15 and 50mg on 2/1/15

Held at 50mg through April 5 to use liquid 
Reduced dosage in 10% or less drops from 50mg to 25mg -- at single tablet of 25mg on 10/5/15

Transitioned to all liquid for accuracy while tapering -- Horrible insomnia -- back to 25mg liquid and held until October 1, 2016

10/16 -- 11/18 tapered very slowly to 10.6mg.  No real improvement and never really stable so updosed to 12.5mg (1/2 a pill) for convenience and long hold.

After 8+ months of holding with no noticeable improvement decided to add .4ml of liquid Prozac (about 1.5mg) to see if that improves the situation

Supplements, Magnesium, D3, Omega 3, curcumin, Valerian, 81mg Aspirin, L-Theanine, Vit. C,

 

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I got sublingual B12 tablets that are 500mcg each. They are very small, but I cut them up and with the fragments, have gradually built up from a tiny chip to almost half a tablet. I intend to get to a whole tablet and then, who knows, maybe even a larger dosage!

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Alto, do you notice any benefit from them ? (B12 tablets).

 

I tried them once, but naively took too much. I have always had anxiety and slight depression and was hoping I could treat it with B12 supplementation, instead of the ssri. I got very sick from it. Anxiety through the roof..

 

I had the MTHFR gene testing done and I have the mutation( have to check which one ). I tried reading about all of the mutations,and just got confused and gave up !

I would like to try again if it could help me, although I am still on an ssri and tapering a benzo,now,too.

 

RB

**I started taking Zoloft 100 mg. in 1996 for a panic disorder with agoraphobia and depression, which worsened after a car accident. I have had these symptoms since age 11 .

** In September 2009 , the Zoloft was upped to 150 mg and .5 mg Xanax was added as needed for extreme anxiety due to my Father's illness and death from cancer. Successfully tapered off the Xanax in November 2009.

** I started my Zoloft taper in September 2011,and,in July 2012, reached 75 mgs.(went to 68.5 mgs,but went back up to 75mgs due to withdrawal related depression /anxiety symptoms .

** I started tapering again in September 2014 ,and, as of December,2014, I was holding at 50 mgs. Zoloft until February,2015, when I tapered in two cuts to 37.5 mgs. Due to protracted withdrawal symptoms, have up dosed to 50 mgs. Zoloft on 5/18/2015 and holding there.

**Also started .25 mgs xanax at bedtime in September,2015, due to alerting/jolting awake/anxiety and not sleeping because of heart related issues,now resolved.I tapered completely off in Oct. 2015 (too fast ) had withdrawal symptoms and updosed to .12 mgs Xanax once a night.

** After dry cutting till I couldn't do it accurately, I have been on compounded doses. Am on 0.069 mgs compounded Xanax as of  6/21/17 once per night, as prescribed by my Doctor.

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I got sublingual B12 tablets that are 500mcg each. They are very small, but I cut them up and with the fragments, have gradually built up from a tiny chip to almost half a tablet. I intend to get to a whole tablet and then, who knows, maybe even a larger dosage!

I could probably do that too, Alto, especially now that I have my scale, but I like the idea of the drops. I will see how it goes.

 

Andy

Sertraline 50mg and Clonazapam .375mg from 2000 -- symptoms of dizziness Spring 2012

increased to .5 Clonazapam and 100mg Sertraline -- no improvement

Benzo microtaper from November 2012 to November 2014 (followed benzo sites "taper benzo first")

Started Sertraline taper in December 2014 cut by 25mg to 75mg; 62.5mg 1/1/15 and 50mg on 2/1/15

Held at 50mg through April 5 to use liquid 
Reduced dosage in 10% or less drops from 50mg to 25mg -- at single tablet of 25mg on 10/5/15

Transitioned to all liquid for accuracy while tapering -- Horrible insomnia -- back to 25mg liquid and held until October 1, 2016

10/16 -- 11/18 tapered very slowly to 10.6mg.  No real improvement and never really stable so updosed to 12.5mg (1/2 a pill) for convenience and long hold.

After 8+ months of holding with no noticeable improvement decided to add .4ml of liquid Prozac (about 1.5mg) to see if that improves the situation

Supplements, Magnesium, D3, Omega 3, curcumin, Valerian, 81mg Aspirin, L-Theanine, Vit. C,

 

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Hello everybody,

 

I do have the MHTFR mutation too, eterozygote (C677T). I also have Leiden V Factor and suffered from a thrombosis 10 years ago. I suspended one year and a half ago antidepressants and I am probably suffering WD sindrom (no doctor has confirmed it yet, as they refer it as anxiety but the symptons do concide).

 

Do you think it is worth giving methylfolate and B12 vitamin a trY? If so, what would be the doses?

 

I can't find any section on this website regarding doctors, who do you normally refer to? To a doctor or do you normally try to fix it on yor own? I imagine most doctors advice to go back to meds and that is the worst choice right? (my phsychiatrist advised to go back to issr for instance.

 

Thanks a lot,

xxx

Valium: 1 year approx. - begun at the end of 2010 and tapered off at the end of 2011

Rivotril: 3 years approx.- begun at the end of 2011 tapered off at the end of 2014

Gabapentin: 9 months approx., begun in March 2011 tapered off at the end of 2011

Laroxyl (amitriptyline)- 1,5 years, begun at the end of 2011 and tapered off in April of 2013 and then changed to 

Cymbalta - 1,8 years (up to 90mg), begun in April 2013 and tapered off in 6-8 weeks from 90 mg to 0 mg at the beginning of 2015.

When tapering off Cymbalta all these symptoms of anxiety began:

Physically: Inner tremor, craneal and ear ringing, tingling, continuous tension and fatigue, inner agitation, nausea in the morning and mentally: obsessive thoughts, suicidal thoughts when I fell very bad and much hypocondrya. 

Bromazepam- 1,5 month 1-2 capsules/day of 1,5 mg, begun in March 2015 and tapered off in May 2015. As symptoms continued my doctor put me on

Lyrica - 8 months, (up to 75mg/day), begun in June 2015 and then tapered off gradually (25 mg off each month) in February 2016

My symptoms of anxiety went away thanks to Lyrica but went back before beginning to taper it off at the end of November 2015 so I went back to 

Bromazepam- 3 months 1-2 capsules/day of 1,5 mg, begun in November 2015 and tapered off in March 2016.

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  • 3 months later...

Admin note: this post was moved from the "No recommendations for commercial products" topic.
This part relates to that discussion about a specific commercial product line:

 

He sells it for same price I'd get it from Hardy directly!

I do think that the product is a superb multi, I just don't like the mental health claims, specifically when my doctor now thinks it has to work for withdrawal...


 

The remainder of this post is about MTHFR and methylation:
 
The methyl groups in that product can have paradoxical effect of overmethylation and I do agree with altostrata that withdrawal is a beast, very high, and unique.

True, if one has hormonal problems or nutrition deficiencies, modifications can help but there is a fine line when we speak about mental health in general and specifically about withdrawal.

See, I have the mthfr homozygous snp, which means there might be folate problems, but how that ties in to mental health DIRECTLY, is mystery to me (I bet, to the doctors too).

Also, whenever I tried to methylate with methyl folate, I was in lots of trouble.

Why can't these doctors realize that we need to focus on withdrawal as a thing for itself, which can be amilorated by good psychoanalytic help and stress reduction?

The double sword problem I see is that withdrawal and long term exposure to these poisons CAN alter body mechanisms so maybe basic vitamin supplementation would be helpful as a preventive just in case. However, the withdrawing person, like me now, has food and supplement sensitivies. How do we correct this problem?

Is anyone with me on the supplement insurance hypothesis?

Edited by scallywag
admin note added

Latest med schedule and withdrawal (05/17/17):

Seroquel On 125mg 10/28/16 (now, 125 mg), (9/2017, 200mg)

Cymbalta On 27mg 10/28/16 (now, 27 mg), (9/2017, 90mg)

Viibryd On 10mg 10/28/16 (now, 10 mg), (9/2017, 20mg)

Klonopin On 2.5 Start 10/28/16 (now 1.5 night, 1 Morning), (9/2017 1.5 night, 1 morning, .5 midday, total 3mg)

Diovan 160mg On 10/28/16 (now 160mg)

Norvasc On 10mg 10/28/16 (now 0), (1/2017 10mg)

Cytomel (T3 for thyroid) on 11/2017 25mcg

 

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  • Administrator

Admin note: this post was moved from the "No recommendations for commercial products" topic.
This part relates to that discussion about a specific commercial product line:
 

Your doctor purchases those products at a discount and marks them up to sell to you.
 
Getting your nutrients from fresh fruits and vegetables is preferable to supplementation.

 

The remainder of this post is about MTHFR and methylation:

 

I am not a big believer in the dangers of MTHFR mutations. The genetic variations are very common. They are normal variations.
 
I have two common heterozygous variations myself.
 
If they were very dangerous, evolution would have weeded them out a long time ago.

Edited by scallywag
admin notes added

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Altostrata,

 

From where do you get the feeling and/or knowledge about your doubts on MTHFR?

 

It seems to be the most researched snp and has been implicated in many studies regarding pregnancy health and many other ailments.

 

With serotonin for instance, there are no tests, but mthfr, seems to be validated and many times can be confirmed by intra folate and b12 testing.

 

Please explain your doubts.

Latest med schedule and withdrawal (05/17/17):

Seroquel On 125mg 10/28/16 (now, 125 mg), (9/2017, 200mg)

Cymbalta On 27mg 10/28/16 (now, 27 mg), (9/2017, 90mg)

Viibryd On 10mg 10/28/16 (now, 10 mg), (9/2017, 20mg)

Klonopin On 2.5 Start 10/28/16 (now 1.5 night, 1 Morning), (9/2017 1.5 night, 1 morning, .5 midday, total 3mg)

Diovan 160mg On 10/28/16 (now 160mg)

Norvasc On 10mg 10/28/16 (now 0), (1/2017 10mg)

Cytomel (T3 for thyroid) on 11/2017 25mcg

 

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Altostrata,

 

In 2014, it seems like you were quite enthusiastic about the MTHFR. What happened now?

 

It might me, alto, that in withdrawal nothing seems to make sense, like I'm experiencing now...

 

Methyl groups might be NEEDED but withdrawal is sensitive to it?

 

I can eat all foods and supplements, yet I can't; it depends on the mood of the withdrawal.

 

Do you see that link or experienced similar problems?

Latest med schedule and withdrawal (05/17/17):

Seroquel On 125mg 10/28/16 (now, 125 mg), (9/2017, 200mg)

Cymbalta On 27mg 10/28/16 (now, 27 mg), (9/2017, 90mg)

Viibryd On 10mg 10/28/16 (now, 10 mg), (9/2017, 20mg)

Klonopin On 2.5 Start 10/28/16 (now 1.5 night, 1 Morning), (9/2017 1.5 night, 1 morning, .5 midday, total 3mg)

Diovan 160mg On 10/28/16 (now 160mg)

Norvasc On 10mg 10/28/16 (now 0), (1/2017 10mg)

Cytomel (T3 for thyroid) on 11/2017 25mcg

 

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Clearly, MTHFR variations have not been a fatal flaw in human evolution. It's possible they confer some other survival advantage.

I agree with this.

 

In short, eat leafy greens.

And this.

 

My theory is we are seeing a manifestation of our unnatural (loaded word) way of life. MTHFR in itself may not be inherently harmful, and even may be beneficial in some circumstances, it just happens to be one of the weakest links under the demands of modern civilization.

 

I was pretty convinced I had MTHFR, and wasn't too surprised when I found out I was C677t homozygous. 

 

Still, the science seems to be clearer on impact on pregnancy loss than treatment of mental health issues.  It's all just too complex, unfortunately.

On and off various medicines since 1989

2009:  Prescribed Lexapro 5mg and Abilify 5mg
2015:  discovered MTHFR snp, went on Walsh protocol, felt better

2016:  down to 2.5mg each of Lexapro and Abilify

2017:  down to .7mg of Abilify, obtained liquid form.

Currently at .4mg of Abilify

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  • Altostrata changed the title to The importance of MTHFR, methylation, & B vitamins: Eat leafy green veggies!
  • 3 months later...

This is a interesting article.  He says folates are super bad for people that have low seratontin.

 

https://www.secondopinionphysician.com/dr-mercola-interviews-dr-walsh-role-methylation-folates-mental-health/

 

However, I have been following other people like Chris Kesser and Dr Kara Fitzgerald who now dont believe that giving B-vitamins is the not the right way to deal with methylation.  The best way to attack this problem now is to use natural methods like exercise, reduce alcohol,  eat healthy etc.  During the hype a few years ago that was the right way of handling it.  Especially giving these huge megadoses of b vitamins but in the long run you get screwed up I guess.

 

I tried using  to try all sorts of b vitamins trying to get my homocysteine down but I think I do best when I take my probiotic, eat healthy and exercise and limit alcohol (very hard for me), but I think if you do that and take a few supporting supplements according to them (curcumin) you should naturally keep methylation running good. 

 

Its when evil stress, alot of alcohol, bad food come in the mix and eventually as you get older you body stops working right.  For me it seems like I was down a spiral of stress, too much alcohol and crappy food that lead eventually to my health anxiety that threw me on Lexapro.  My goal is to be healthy and I think over time everything will balance out but its not a overnight process.  It will take years.  I was at 13.5 on my homocysteine and now its down to 11.5.  So things are getting better.  If I get off the SSRI I think the numbers will get better because it also depeletes vitamins needed for methylation. 

 

Just my 2 cents but I love talking about it.  Hopefully some people respond because lately it seems like every thread I respond to it goes quiet!

February 2017 started Ambien (Whatever the highest dose was) and Ativan 1.5mg

March 2017 started lexapro.  15mg  -Weaned off Ativan after about 2 months on it. 

Weaned off Ambien after 4 months on it every night.  Lexapro starting working and didn't need it.

April 2018 started reduced Lexapro.  15mg-12.5mg.

May 18' 10mg, June 18' 7.5mg, July 18' 5mg, August 18' 4.5mg, Sept 18' 4.0mg, Oct 18' 3.5mg, Nov 18' 3.0mg.

Jan 19' 2.5mg, February 19' 2.0mg, From here I went about .10mg drops at a time and sometimes more every 2 weeks depending on how I feel.  That was from February-August 20th 2019.

I got to .30mg and decided to jump off.  It was so small and decided I needed to face my fears.  I created nueral pathways in my brain that I was fearing withdrawal.

Lexapro 0.0mg 8/20/2019

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Idlehnds said:

Just my 2 cents but I love talking about it.  Hopefully some people respond because lately it seems like every thread I respond to it goes quiet! 

 Ha! Me too,  @Idlehnds.

 

I have been thinking about this the last two days as I was digging on my laptop (changing my Apple ID which is an ordeal I do not recommend). Came across a NutraHacker analysis of a DNA test I uploaded to them (attached some of it here, I think no identifying markers, hope it is legible). Apparently, folates are bad for me. It seems like Bs are encouraged and discouraged. I like how the author says not to self-diagnose. I did throw out my vitE but am now confused if I should take dessicated liver (has Bs) or no. Perhaps a Walsh practitioner is called for 🙂

 

3 hours ago, Idlehnds said:

I was at 13.5 on my homocysteine and now its down to 11.5.  So things are getting better.  If I get off the SSRI I think the numbers will get better because it also depeletes vitamins needed for methylation. 

Interesting and congratulations on the reduction.

nutraSA.jpg

  • Prozac | late 2004-mid-2005 | CT WD in a couple months, mostly emotional
  • Sertraline 50-100mg | 11/2011-3/2014, 10/2014-3/2017
  • Sertraline fast taper March 2017, 4 weeks, OFF sertraline April 1, 2017
  • Quit alcohol May 20, 2017
  • Lifestyle changes: AA, kundalini yoga

 

"If you've seen a monster, even if it's horrible, that's evidence of divinity." – Damien Echols

 

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HI Farmgirlworks!

 

Its funny how 3-5 years ago the rage was all about these 23 and me tests and taking supplements based upon putting it through a computer to analyze your SNPs.  All doctors say that is horrible to try and self diagnose and figure it out for yourself when we have like millions and millions of SNP.  I guess some can be activated and some are not so theres no way of knowing unless you do the right blood tests to see how your methylation is doing.  

 

For me, instead of taking a bunch of vitamins to see what is wrong I am just going to go back to the basics and focus on diet and exercise.  For some reason I have this little voice in my head that keeps telling me to stop those types of supplements and to just do that.  I do still take, prebiotics, probiotics, digestive enzymes (sometimes), fish oil.  Seems like those work the best for me.

 

BTW.. Thanks for answering... LOL

February 2017 started Ambien (Whatever the highest dose was) and Ativan 1.5mg

March 2017 started lexapro.  15mg  -Weaned off Ativan after about 2 months on it. 

Weaned off Ambien after 4 months on it every night.  Lexapro starting working and didn't need it.

April 2018 started reduced Lexapro.  15mg-12.5mg.

May 18' 10mg, June 18' 7.5mg, July 18' 5mg, August 18' 4.5mg, Sept 18' 4.0mg, Oct 18' 3.5mg, Nov 18' 3.0mg.

Jan 19' 2.5mg, February 19' 2.0mg, From here I went about .10mg drops at a time and sometimes more every 2 weeks depending on how I feel.  That was from February-August 20th 2019.

I got to .30mg and decided to jump off.  It was so small and decided I needed to face my fears.  I created nueral pathways in my brain that I was fearing withdrawal.

Lexapro 0.0mg 8/20/2019

 

 

 

 

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  • 2 years later...

I recently discovered that I have a copy of the MTHFR gene mutation from both parents through a 23andMe test. I can only process 10-20% of folic acid and B12. I tried to do blood testing to see if I am deficient and need to supplement but they wouldn’t process it due to COVID. Are there any studies out there that show that having this can affect mental health? The CDC says there is a lot of misinformation out there and the only thing to be concerned about is a higher risk of neural tube defects with pregnancy. 

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  • 1 year later...

Caesar65,

As you know, some medications can affect the blood levels of other medications.  Here's a study showing PPI's increase levels of some antidepressants (and sex also affects them) and recommend lowering doses.

https://journals.lww.com/drug-monitoring/Fulltext/2015/02000/Effect_of_Proton_Pump_Inhibitors_on_the_Serum.13.aspx

 

I agree with both of you that because of genetics, some people are ineffective metabolizers and detoxifiers. Please allow me to explain.

 

About 40% of the population in the US have mutations (variations)in a gene called MTHFR that helps metabolize Folic Acid.  

MTHFR —Methylenetetrahydrofolate reductase—is the name of both a gene and an enzyme.  The MTHFR gene instructs the body to make the enzyme. This enzyme is important because it helps turn folic acid into a form that can be absorbed properly. In other words, it turns folate into its bioavailable form, methylfolate.

 
If the MTHFR gene has mutations (small variations) it can't  produce the enzyme correctly.  It causes your body to change folate into methylfolate at a reduced capacity.  So you may end up with  too much folate (because it accumulates) and not enough methylfolate, and that can cause problems because you need methylfolate to recycle Homocysteine (toxic to brain neurons and a risk factor for cardiac events) into something useful (Methionine) and make SAM-e.  SAM-e is very important because it donates methyl groups to aid in important processes like making DNA, histamine and hormone metabolism, detoxification by the liver, cell energy and manufacturing brain neurotransmitters.
 
MTHFR also aids the process of detoxification in the body. When it’s not working properly, heavy metal and mineral levels can reach dangerous levels or create an imbalance, which can cause symptoms like hyperactivity, mood disorders, and much more.
 
"As such, this mutation often explains, at least in part, why some individuals have sensitivities or rare reactions to medications, and even supplements. It also explains why mood and behavior can worsen when your child takes an ordinary multivitamin, or even eats fortified cereals."
 
However, MTHFR mutations don't always cause problems.  It depends on the type and amount of mutations.  You inherit one copy of the gene from each of your parents.  Single mutations are very common and not a problem because they decrease enzyme activity only a little. 
 
For example if you have  Type A1298C (usually found in Europeans)
One single mutation you have 83 % enzyme activity
Double mutation you have 61 % enzyme activity
 
But if you have Type C677T 
One single mutation gives you 67 % enzyme activity
Double mutation gives you only 25 % enzyme activity
 
If you have a combination of one A1298C and one C677T you have 48% enzyme activity
 
So the risk is higher with the last two but you also have to consider lifestyle (diet, stress, smoking, alcohol/drug use, etc)
 
 C677T is considered a risk factor for mental illness and more severe depression. A double C677T can cause low Folate,  
Vit B12, Vitamin D,  high homocysteine and disrupt methylation.
 
If you then take medications that deplete the same vitamins (like SSRIs, antipsychotics, PPIs, cholesterol meds and more) you might see an increase in symptoms.  On the other hand, stopping SSRIs can also cause an imbalance and affect methylation ...and symptoms may last a long time.  
 
I think that might be why you guys seem to be having symptoms related to MTHFR mutations.  I see it when I read posts.  Try it, look up MTHFR and whatever symptom you're having. 
 
By the way Caesar65, MTHFR mutations cause peripheral/vascular, autonomic, neurological problems....  good job!
 
I hope this helps you.
 

1994 Sinequan 150mg daily X 2 years then slow decrease

down to 10 mg for years because I got hives when stopped

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To Altostrata, 

It's up to you now.  I can back up what I said.  Let me know if you need sources.  When I read some of the posts I noticed the symptoms and thought that was weird, they seemed to resemble MTHFR symptoms.  It soon became clear they are the same.  migraine, nerve zaps, gastroparesis is neurological.  Someone with ear pain, akathisia, orthostatic tachycardia, chronic fatigue syndrome, sexual problems.  It's too many to be wrong.  I hope you'll check it out.

 

This is from a conference by Dr William Walsh from the Walsh Institute.  He's teaching doctors how to treat methylation problems, so they'll be able to help you.

Best of luck to all of you.  If you have any questions, please let me know. 

 

 

and something about Atriasl Fib ...look at the part on MTHFR.  It's caused by high homocysteine (which can be treated).

 

https://www.intechopen.com/chapters/61250

 

 

1994 Sinequan 150mg daily X 2 years then slow decrease

down to 10 mg for years because I got hives when stopped

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  • Administrator

MTHFR was a thing 12 years ago. Already been discussed to death here.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

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It's my understanding that it's not really a mutation if 40% of the population experience this.

 

It's a variation, and not even an unusual one.   

 

People who design medications should be aware of this, but they likely don't care.  It's not profitable to eliminate 40% of populace from your revenue stream.

"Easy, easy - just go easy and you'll finish." - Hawaiian Kapuna

 

Holding is hard work, holding is a blessing. Give your brain time to heal before you try again.

 

My suggestions are not medical advice, you are in charge of your own medical choices.

 

A lifetime of being prescribed antidepressants that caused problems (30 years in total). At age 35 flipped to "bipolar," but was not diagnosed for 5 years. Started my journey in Midwest United States. Crossed the Pacific for love and hope; currently living in Australia.   CT Seroquel 25 mg some time in 2013.   Tapered Reboxetine 4 mg Oct 2013 to Sept 2014 = GONE (3 years on Reboxetine).     Tapered Lithium 900 to 475 MG (alternating with the SNRI) Jan 2014 - Nov 2014, tapered Lithium 475 mg Jan 2015 -  Feb 2016 = GONE (10 years  on Lithium).  Many mistakes in dry cutting dosages were made.


The tedious thread (my intro):  JanCarol ☼ Reboxetine first, then Lithium

The happy thread (my success story):  JanCarol - Undiagnosed  Off all bipolar drugs

My own blog:  https://shamanexplorations.com/shamans-blog/

 

 

I have been psych drug FREE since 1 Feb 2016!

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Altostrata, may I ask something?  Did people get tested?  Were they positive?  Negatives?  Obviously if you can't share any info I understand.

 

I have double C677T and so do some of the other parents of suicide victims.  

 

JanCarol, yes mutations are small variations and found all over the world, some ethnicities more than others .  Single mutations are quite common.

1994 Sinequan 150mg daily X 2 years then slow decrease

down to 10 mg for years because I got hives when stopped

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Testing MTHFR was a massive fad 12 or so years ago. Many people got tested. I got tested myself, I'm heterozygous for a couple of common variations (like 40% of the general population).

 

MTHFR variations were once one of those "theories of everything" responsible for every disease, including psychiatric disorders. 

 

If you look around the Symptoms forum, you will see discussions of every fad that's swept through naturopathy or complementary medicine. People occasionally join here to enthusiastically share their discoveries of one or another. 

 

None of them have been proven to be "the answer" to tapering or withdrawal or whatever. Usually the remedies apply to a very small number of people, such as chelation for heavy metal exposure -- meaning people who working in paint factories or mines.

 

Your discovery may be new to you but it is not new to us. Read this topic from the beginning.

 

PS 

 

3 hours ago, PurpleRein said:

I have double C677T and so do some of the other parents of suicide victims.  

 

l have no idea what this means to you, and I cannot see how this applies to any other of our members.

 

 

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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