Muddles: desperate

[Wolfhound]

No no, I am not British at all, I am Czech, but my family came here from northern Italy. :-) I was simply glad to meet a British guy here....

Yes, I am off, but who knows how long it will take...I would like it to be months, not years and years..just now I am trying to live one day at a time.

[Muddles]

Yes - and sometimes one minute at a time. You will get there...I believe it.

 

You are very good with your English, I must say!

 

My father lived in Italy for sometime...he loved it there. My family wants to take his ashes back to Latvia but doubt I will be able to go. That breaks my heart.

[Wolfhound]

Thank you. I have always loved languages. I am a French teacher by profession.

I hope you can get in touch with dr. Healy and let him be your counsellor in tapering....

I am thinking a lot about our children and about how these terrible drugs completely changed our lives and destinies. I am so afraid of the future.

Keeping my fingers crossed for you!

[bubble]

^{Oh Muddles....I feel so sorry for you ...}

^{yes, I am off but I was cold turkeyed which is not good. And I dont see much better, yes I had few better days, but immediately followed by much worse days. In the begining I thought that I could feel better quickly when I was on meds only for 3 months but I understood now that this does not count much. You can be on meds few weeks and then you will suffer from withdrawal years...that´s what scares the hell off me.}

 

Dear Muddles and Wolfhound, I'm so happy to see the two of you sharing these awful experiences in great detail manage to give each other some comfort.

 

When I became depressed I was looking after my baby brother who was 13 years younger than me and I was very much like mother to him so I can also in a way relate to your pain of not being able to be the kind of mothers you are capable of being AT THE MOMENT.

 

The reason I quoted this post by Wolfhound is that when you said: I had a few better days but immediately followed by much worse days. This sounds like windows (and waves) we have been awaiting so eagerly! Have you read about that: windows and waves pattern of recovery?

 

I'm also very happy to hear of your attempts to live one day at a time, it is very hard for all of us as well as the acceptance. So don't be hard for yourselves. Also don't beat yourself about taking the drugs. Doctors told us to do it and we believed them, that's all.

 

You are both being heroic mothers and you definitely won't have to wait that long to be the kind of mothers you are capable of being. From my experience I can only say that these changes for the better happen so slowly and subtly that you actually don't notice them and than after some time you just find yourself enjoying life again.

 

I now that it's still awfully hard but I see definite progress and really think the worst is behind you!

 

big hug to both

 

bubble

[Muddles]

Thank you bubbles!

I've cried tonight after I had wrote about my dad. 3 months he's been gone and I have not grieved at all...I want and need to. This drug induced depression lets me feel nothing and it's truly agonising. I talk about him like he's never been here....that breaks my heart as I adored him.

 

I hope one day I will have all of my feelings back.

And I hope you are right - I really do.

 

Thank you.

[mammaP]

Hi Muddles, hope that you are doing ok, or as well as you can be. 

I know I sound like a stuck record but this will get better, it really will. 

Hugs from MammaP

[Wolfhound]

Muddles, just a quick stop, I am thinking of you, tell me, how are you doing? Have you had some better days? Hugs W.

[Muddles]

Thank you Mamma P and Wolfhound for thinking of me. I hope you are looking forward to your new house Mamma P....try not to stress too much.

 

I had a better weekend or should I say different. Felt very high and irritable which was uncomfortable but managed to do stuff I haven't done for a while because I couldn't stay still!

Today the head pressure is back - it's very strange because the depression always hits with it. It's kind of like I have a brick in my head and behind my eyes.

 

I am still waiting for Dr Healy. I am going to phone tomorrow as its been a while now.

 

How are you Wolfhound? X

[bubble]

I think change is good and promising, things are moving and moving in the right direction.

 

And I think they same is true of Wolfhound...

 

I soooo hope I'm right  

[mammaP]

That is such good news Muddles, things are changing and healing.  

I hope Dr Healey gets in touch soon.

[Wolfhound]

I am happy for you Muddles, it is good to hear about some changes in your symptoms. Wish you more better days. I have been worse the last three days I dont feel like writing about it now. I feel so weak and full of reproaches.

I wish dr. Healy got back to you. When I wrote him an email he replied almost immediately. I wonder that it was because he replied he could not help me via net....so maybe it looks better for you when he did not reply instantly...hope so!  Let us know about his suggestions if you feel like it...

Sending greetings from central Europe.w.

[Muddles]

I'm sorry wolfhound. Feel free to message me anytime. Thinking of you.

[Muddles]

I've tried to PM you wolfhound but it won't send.

 

Hope you're not any worse.

 

I've crashed big time today :-(

Will write more when I'm up to it. I hate moaning!

[Wolfhound]

OH Muddles I am sorry. I could PM you without problems. Well, you can try me on facebook, if you like.

If you feel like writing about what happened, do it, if not, don ´t. I think there are times when sharing is important and I would not call it moaning.

However, I am here to lend an ear.

Hope you are not worse either .... even if your writing suggests the contrary.

Take care Muddles!

[mammaP]

Don't worry about moaning Muddles, we are all here for you. 

I thought about you this morning when I sent my son an email.

He didn't get it and I had to send another which made me wonder if Dr Healey actually received 

you email! I would try again, I'm sure he would have replied if he had received it. 

 

Mamma hugs. xx

[Muddles]

Thanks Wolfhound. I hope you are no worse?

 

Just sick of this depression/anxiety along with the other crap. Vision problems have hit today along with gum and sinus problems??? I'm not sure what that's all about...but I know it's all linked as I had to have a tooth out when I started mirtazapine due to gum problems.

 

It's a horrible depression that comes and sick of feeling like I'm on drugs - I know I am but it's a terrible feeling. I was going to try and get a MRI off the doctor for the head pressure and balance issues but don't think it would show anything.

 

Found myself wishing for a brain tumour earlier!

 

For god sake - I was always scared of death and illnesses....before medication!! Now I'm wishing bloody cancer on myself. This is pathetic, sad and selfish I know but at the same time, feel I could tolerate and endure any illness/disease over this.

 

I hate and detest everything around me...can't describe the feeling but it's awful and so intense.

 

I was ok'ish at the weekend....planning a weekend away etc. how can I change so quickly?

 

Worse thing is some of my so called friends don't believe me....god I wish they could have a few minutes inside my head and body!

 

Rant and moan over....sorry. It does help to release my feelings and thoughts to people who 'get it'.

[Muddles]

Thanks mammP...appreciate the hugs.

I have emailed him again...Fingers crossed.

 

Hope you're ok.

[Muddles]

Had a bit of a better day today.

I had to make a couple of phone calls regarding outstanding bills to be paid for my dad. It sent me into overdrive - tingles all over my body and that horrible pit of the stomach depression. Felt anger too- I think that's the feeling...very hard to explain.

 

But before that though, for a while I felt a tad better. When the sun is shining I seem to be able to cope with symtoms a bit better. I need to move to Australia!???? UK weather is far too unpredictable.

 

I wanted to ask if anybody has had problems getting friends and family to believe and accept withdrawel? I am embarrassed about my episode I had a few weeks ago which involved a lot of people out looking for me & then police at my house. At the time I was suffering physical and mental askasia (I think that's how you spell it?), and none of my friends (apart from my bestie) will accept this as anything to to with my antidepressant.

 

It's so frustrating and makes me angry to think they all think that was 'me'.

Infact one of my friends told me today that her mum is on mirtazapine for a few years and never had problems on it but is in the process of getting off it with NO PROBLEMS! She gave me that look - that...'you are off your head' look.

 

What angered me the most about the conversation is that her doctor told her that mirtazapine was NOT ADDICTIVE and that she could cut dose in half for a couple if weeks and just stop! I told her my views....again she have me that look.

[Wolfhound]

Muddles,

I am so sorry for you.

I think that you are feeling mood swings and it sounds as irritability when you describe it, too. I have these feelings together with terrible depressive thinking as well and sometimes I just think I am unable to cope one more minute, one more second. The worse for me is how it affects my children but I have already written about it here. It is a topic that I cannot accept.

About your family and friends...I don´t have these problems, my husband believes me....but I don´t think he is able to feel it but all this is not his fault I truly believe I would not be able to feel the utter despair of the withdrawal just thanks to talking....my friends believe me too but I told the details only to a couple of the best of best:-) What helped me a lot was to send them some scientific material. My best friend kept asking me about akathisia that I have had on trazadone and mirtazapine so I sent her the study by Yolanda Lucire and she was simply shocked. A week ago she kept asking me about my feelings and pain ...I sent her a long email explaning roughly the adverse effects of ADs, the Bigpharma and its approach towards hiding evidence from trials and mentioning that there were few psychiatrists that had started to warn about it, namely Joseph Glenmullen and David Healy.

So no problems with my close family and friends, but the medical profession and therapists- no one believes no matter who I mention.

Here are the links I sent to my friends to look at, I am sending these to you in case you want to use them:

http://www.dovepress.com/antidepressant-induced-akathisia-related-homicides-associated-with-dim-a7993

http://seroxatsecrets.wordpress.com/2008/05/18/q-a-session-with-dr-joseph-glenmullen/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mOCCguRXRY

Hope that helps.

And I wanted to tell you that I find great that you have felt better some days. This is excellent for your healing.

Hugs w.

[Jemima]

I think a lot of us have had trouble making friends and family understand antidepressant withdrawal symptoms.  After all, they've been brainwashed by the medical establishment into thinking that any unusual behavior is a symptom of mental illness and that psychiatric medications are always beneficial.  I told a few good friends what was really going on with me, but mostly I told people I was very sick from a prescription drug reaction. Lots of people have trouble with drug side effects, so that explanation was usually accepted without question. 

 

I'm not wishing any ill on your friend's mother, but I suspect she's going to start having withdrawal symptoms soon. Many of us on this forum have had no problems with the first few dosage cuts. However, when tapering too fast, the symptoms start at the lower dosages and are usually the worst at the very end of a taper when the doses are tiny. They're worst of all when a person goes off cold turkey or does a very abrupt taper like your friend's mother is doing. I hope she continues to do well, but if not, you know where to send her.

[Muddles]

Thank you Wolfhound. I will print these off.

Yes I think it is irritability, very uncomfortable.

I had a lot of friends - this is what makes it so much harder. I was so sociable and now can't be bothered to even answer text messages.

I believe that the good ones will always stick by no matter what. I've known my best friend since I was 9 and we have been inseparable ever since so she knows me inside out! She's a keeper :-)

 

Regarding your children - how old are they? When I first went on antidepressent and had bad reactions I was very ill...that was 4 years ago.

They were only 4 & 7 years old and to be honest did not take much notice and were quite unaware or effected. Now they are older it is more difficult. They notice more. My daughter is getting hormones and is very fragile so she actually gets upset. She had a mini panic attack one night :-(

 

I suppose what I am trying to say is that - from what I can gather, your children are younger??

I know you feel that they are suffering but young children are very resilient and can take a lot. They still have their mother and this is all that counts. They have a good father, and of course each other. This will be a distant memory for them in the future. And when they are older they will understand that this was NOT YOUR FAULT.

 

My husband said to me earlier - i don't see what you see in the mirror, me and the kids still see a loving, kind mother and wife. That's after I snapped his head off for something so trivial.

He is such a lovely man...I could never have found anyone better than him. I hate getting angry and irritable with him or not being able to do things couples do.

[Muddles]

Oh and of course - I have you lot on here as my understanding, non-judgemental friends.

[Muddles]

Yes Jemima...it's shocking. But there are people out there that have no trouble coming off medication. I know of a couple. I don't understand this? Just as I don't understand how some people can stay on antidepressants for years and years with no problems...no poop-out?

[Wolfhound]

Yes, Muddles, there are people who stop or change antidepressants without ANY problems. I have seen them when I was in hospital. there were people c/t from more than 200 mg Efexor and ...nothing happened. I don´t know, maybe something would happen in 5 months time but at that time nothing.

About friends : I cannot be without my best friends and as far as they are concerned, I am sure they always try to understand me. So they are willing to listen to me or to read articles in English. Others....well...when they don´ t get it, I will understand as well. But the people who had read the Yolanda Lucire study were all compassionate - they told me the text had helped them imagine what I must have been through.

  You are right, my children are a little bit younger than yours 4 years ago , my third child is older. But they notice so much! Yes, they still have their mother, but they notice many changes in my behaviour and in our life. We led a very active life it is my natural temperament so now it is completely different.

Mum, why don´t we have the tasty bread you baked?

Mum, why didn´t we go skiing as usual?

Mum why don´t we go swimming every Monday?

Mom, why are you so sad and tired? Mom, when will you be like before?

I explain. But it tears my heart out - in my better moments when I can feel it.

 

It is great that your husband is such a supportive person! And as you have the support of your best friend, it is wonderful.

[Muddles]

It is so difficult Wolfhound. I wish I had a magic wand. I know you may not believe it but I feel you are slowly healing. Hugs.

 

I am pretty much the same today. The strangest head sensations - I know they say antidepressants can damage the frontal lobe of the brain but do you think it is actually possible to feel it??? When I started mirtazapine I felt head sensations but the opposite - it was kind of a pulling up sensation. I would sit there pushing down on my forehead - now I'm doing the opposite.

[Wolfhound]

Muddles, it´s strange but I have been thinking about the same thing, believe it or not! I am thinking about many symptoms for sure, but the head pressure, the tinnitus and overall strange feelings in my head that become worse when changing my posture were predominating yesterday.

I assure you I can feel it very well, so why not you? But I have all the strange feelings in the back part of my head just close to the neck and the spine...and close to the ear area as well, but this must be connected to the unpleasant tinnitus.

I don´t know what part of the brain is situated in the back of the head I must look it up.

But you are right that antidepressants should interfere in the frontal parts, prefrontal cortex and I think sensitive persons can feel it...

I wish I could help you somehow. And other people. Alas, not possible.

So sending you hugs across the Channel. Wishing you a nice Sunday....w.

[Muddles]

Does the brain repai those cells I wonder?

 

I forced myself and went to have dinner with my family today.

My brother is not doing very well since my dads death. He was his full time carer for two years after my dad had his stroke. My dad was totally bed bound and it was so hard to care for him but we wouldn't have had it any other way.

My brother said he is feeling very depressed and is thinking of going to the doctors for medication.

I have spoke and pleaded with him not to as this is just grief. After looking after someone so close 24 hours a day and then losing them - its no wonder he is depressed. He is only 28 and is struggling to get a job and face life again.

 

I have always looked after my siblings. How very much I love my mother - she was never fully hands on. My parents didn't have a good relationship which meant my mother was out a lot. I took over the mothering role and did for a very long time as my mother left when my younger brother was 11.

 

However much I am worried for my brother I realise I cannot worry and stress like I usually do. I have not got it in me to care for him as I am struggling to care for myself and my children.

This has been my problem throughout my life - I have always been the one to step in and help people....it's in my nature, but looking back - I took on far too much responsibility.

 

I have recommended CBT to my brother. I have told him that medication will not solve anything in the slightest and will make things worse. Grief should not be medicated....I cannot grieve because of medication which is more harmful in the long run. I hope he has listened to me.

[Wolfhound]

It is what we have to hope. Yesterday afternoon in sheer hell I have been reading benzo survivors success stories. It did help me out of the worst state and yes, the benzo survivors got their brains back.

I agree completely with everything you told your brother. I see it as a very wise advice- one must go through the grief period and there is no medication for it.

[bubble]

We have all learnt something important here: grief is a very complex process.

 

The contemporary world doesn't allow us to be melancholic (did you see how this word has totally disappeared from our vocabularies? Melancholy was a natural state recognised since ancient Greece, in romanticism is was a fashionable sign of a refined and noble character. Now it has become replaced by depression which indicates that human nature got pathologised for purposes of making profit: keeping the workforce functional at all times and providing gainful employment for psychiatrists and pharma industry

 

My father died 2 years ago and now I'm actively grieving a lot more than 2 years ago. at that time I was just in deep shock. 

 

But the spirit of the times teaches as to avoid suffering at any cause, however little and to be happy at all times. That is what is not natural and therefore pathological and not feeling sad when something sad happens.

 

(it's so interesting for me to read what you wrote about your mother and you taking on the responsibility for what aduls were supposed to do: I'm the oldest of 5 and my mother basically left the youngest brother in my care when I was 13.So I understand very well what you are talking about! We never had time to look after ourselves and our own needs. Our depression is like a wake up call or an alarm sounding to tell as it's high time we do that...)

[Muddles]

This is so true. Society feels the need to be happy at all times....life is one big challenge and is far from happy for a lot of people. Ups and downs, tragedy and grief are all avoidable yet normal occurrences.

 

Sad to hear you had to deal with a situation so similar. Although you were a bit younger than i was, that must have been so tough! It's a lot to have to deal with at such a vunerable age.

Iam not in anyway angry with my mother...maybe just disappointed. My father tried his best but it was difficult as he was an older parent, plus very heartbroken and bitter over my mother.

 

I've been through some bad times sure enough, and come out of them,

Just as you have.

[bubble]

I'm not angry with my mother. Nor my father. Not any more.

 

I used to be. A lot. I blamed them for my suffering but I don't anymore. I understand them better now and understand that wilth all their personal challanges they did the best they could as parents. They tried very hard. 

 

Realising this was a major step in my recovery. I could never understand that commandment: honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.

 

What if your parents fail you miserably and dreadfully? Even worse, for children who get abused by their parents in all sorts of dreadful ways? But it says honour (not even love) because in that way, life will be easier for you, if you make peace with them.

 

I hated when somebody would tell me: what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger because very often I felt it didn't kill me but it broke me.

 

Now I feel like like this Humpty Dumpty can be put together again....

 

( I suffered badly from comparing myself with people who live happier lives, don't have issues, beam with self-confidence. But I don't feel inferior to them any more. I give myself credit for surviving what I did and achieving what I did which is all so more important since nobody can see that. They look at me and see a successful professional, with her own flat, etc. and think why would a person like that be depressed. She is just spoilt. But they have no clue about what I went through to achieve this seemingly carefree existence).

[Muddles]

I too used to envy others. I am at the moment going through this - but only because I am not in a good place with antidepresants.

 

You have had lot to deal with but sounds like you are out the on the other side a stronger and wiser person. You have all of the tools in place to go through life without medication.

 

You should seriously consider becoming a therapist when you are over this.

When I read your replies (not just on my wall), I am like "oh yeah - she's so right', it all makes a lot of sense and I always feel much more positive about stuff.

 

Thank you.

[Wolfhound]

Oh yes, Bubble will become therapist and I will be her first client, ok?

[Wolfhound]

Muddles, when I returned home from my hospital stay, I started to envy everybody. I looked around from the car for exemple and saw all those people smiling, chatting, frowning, in haste somewhere...I couldn´t understand it! I immediately started to cry, to mourn my former personality, my former life, my former hobbies, my former everything thinking I lost it. And unfortunately this kind of negative thinking is still predominant now. And my abhorrent envy is still present ... yesterday my eldest brother came to see me and I simply couldn´t stop myself from envying him, his skiing trip, his work, his normal life. I tried hard to get myself to the kind of thinking I would love to adopt thanks to this horrific experience, to think about it as a turning point in my life that can have the power to teach me new things about myself in spite of its horror. I want to hope this is a journey and maybe I really shall be able to learn more new during the journey. Yesterday I only cried and envied everything he talked about everything I used to love. And he is my most beloved brother. I cannot believe what I have become.

[bubble]

Oh yes, Bubble will become therapist and I will be her first client, ok?

oh my, you two made me laugh (in a nice way ))

 

Come to think about it, I started with therapies during my studies so I in a way switched focus from my formal studies and started reading a lot on clinical psychology and even psychiatry to understand what was happening to me and protect myself from psychiatrists with their sacred (secret) knowledge. I wanted to be in charge, I didn't want to be outwitted and caught off guard.

 

I actually admire myself at the age of 19 when all this started happening to me: I didn't think psychiatrists can help me but when things got unbearable I decided I will have to try them out since I had no idea what to do and they claimed to know. But I paid a private one and was very careful about what they were saying. I'd decided that if they wanted to put me on meds, I'd found someone else. So I found those who were not pill pushers but engaged me in a psychoanalytically oriented psychotherapy. Some 5 years ago I changed to a Gestal psychologist. (Unfortunately, some 3 years into the talk therapy, I decided to try out the meds. Don't know what my life would look like if I hadn't. And I will never find out.) 

 

So after that many years in therapy, I guess I could maybe go after a formal qualification, lol ))

 

Up to a certain point, all of us here lived 'normal' lives until suddenly we "crossed to the other side", into the world of " mentally ill" or whatever society choses to label people with such experiences. I fought nail and tooth not to become a part of that group that I myself stigmatised.

 

I know what horror it is to experience like your psychic has become a piece of badly shattered glass that is somehow still holding together but looking through it makes everything distorted. Like you become aware you have a liver or a kidney when they start hurting or malfunctioning. Envying people who are not aware of this 'organ' and mourning the way we used to be before is a big part of that situation. I spent years and years expecting I will one day wake up and will feel  about things and everything the way I used to. I was also very passionate and active. And then I became a vegetable. I was mourning myself as a living dead.

 

Listening to the two of you reminded me of that period and I wanted to tell you about this things. I don't have any particular message or advice ;(. Just wanted to share so that you can see this happens to other people, that you are not alone, that people survive and get better. We are all different. I'm still not the way I was before. But sometimes I am. Your stories will  be different for sure.

 

Don't feel bad about anything you feel at the moment.

[Muddles]

Today I can't stop crying. This depression is never ending and can't help feeling it is permanent. I've tried so many things but it just won't hold off. Trying to look for a way out....going down that horrible road again.