Designgirl732: Hello and Thanks for having me. Confused about AD's and what I should do.

[trouper]

hi stace,

know that the emotions you are feeling that aren't "you" are the withdrawals. everything you mentioned are classic symptoms. knowing that these waves are temporary and will pass should help you stay mindful and accepting. i struggle with the anxiety aspect as well and withdrawals makes the underlying anxiety so much worse. seriously considering if the "what ifs" are true always makes me spiral down. I've been through this maybe over 50 times and still sometimes struggle to stay calm and accepting. its best to practice cognitive behavior therapy and mindfulness/acceptance during the waves. there is a good thread on coping tools on this site.

when i was 3 months into withdrawal i tried 50mg of 5-htp and it hit me pretty hard. i am very sensitive to neurological drugs now so i just leave anything that touches serotonin alone and try to let my body figure out what it needs to do without assistance of serotonin.

i had a pretty big setback in january due to a combination of huge stresses and paradoxical effects from supplements. i haven't seen many who had a setback as bad as mine was and although it took awhile, I'm bouncing back. know that each wave will pass and you will slowly heal and get better. accept that this your brain trying to heal and find its way back. take deep breaths. know that it will pass.

[Designgirl732]

Hey trouper! Thanks for responding. I'm not sure what it is but I know that my depression and anxiety is just getting worse. I've been having thoughts of suicide lately and that's not good. To think 3 days of 1/4 of the recommended does of SAM-e is what did it is probably silly-i was feeling that way Sunday morning and I hadn't taken anything. Today I woke up with a racing heart and sweating which hasn't happened in a LONG TIME.

 

I made an appointment with a therapist today, and i went for a jog. Took all I had in me to go to the post office (Sounds ridiculous, I know-I have SA too when I get panicked and depressed).

 

I'm realizing this is no way to live and in my darkest moments and thoughts, i feel like my husband and kids would be better without me. 

My GP, OB and previous therapist all told me they think a VERY low dose of lexapro and therapy combined can help me out of this hole. I've been reluctant, tried everything under the sun but the bad days are now outweighing the good. It's hard to explain. Well, maybe not-i'm sure you guys understand.

Don't think i'm awful if I start lexapro. I'd start at 5mg and see how I feel. I'd probably just stay at that dose and combine it with behavioral therapy and see how I go through there. 

thanks for listening.

[Altostrata]

Why Lexapro? Why not citalopram again?

 

Milligram for milligram, Lexapro is several times stronger than citalopram. 5mg Lexapro is equivalent to about 15mg citalopram.

 

You may find this much too strong for your nervous system right now.

 

Yes, SAM-e is so strong it can destabilize a nervous system that has been sensitized by withdrawal syndrome -- which we warned you about in the SAM-e topic. If I were you, I'd allow more time for recovery from SAM-e.

[Designgirl732]

I always heard Lexapro was 'cleaner' and better for anxiety/OCD/Panic - but yes, citalopram did keep me stable. I didn't realize 5mg was equivalent to that. I think I was only taking 10mg of citalopram at the time.

I'm still feeling the effects of SAMe today I didn't even take it and I still can't eat.

 

I'll probably hold onto the script for a bit and see how I feel. 

[Designgirl732]

Maybe i'll take 2.5 for a few days, then 5 then stay at that. I don't know-i can't win I feel like. 

[Altostrata]

Lexapro is not "cleaner" and more effective. It is stronger and more activating -- causing anxiety, sleeplessness, etc.

[Designgirl732]

Yea i've heard different things. My psych said celexa is better but they lost their patent so changed it by one little thing and called it lexapro just so they could still make money. so when I ended up on citalopram and ramped up, i was stable. so why not do like 2.5/5mg if i'm' going to do anything..you're right.

 

anxiety is a crazy thing..i'm so irrational and then when i calm myself down i'm a completely different person. which goes to show that 1) CBT will hopefully help me and 2) i'm going to be OK 

 

 

what confuses me is this: if anxiety and obsessions and worry which leads to depression is my problem, then how come serotonin 'helping' drugs like SAMe make me feel worse?? It doesn't make sense to me. 

 

I think this whole week i've been a complete mess b/c of my anticipated appointment with my GP.

[Altostrata]

I'm concerned that you rely on "hearing" different things. These days, we need to research our drugs and treatments ourselves for self-protection. See the Wikipedia article on escilatopram.

[Designgirl732]

Hey guys..SO i went to my dr..he put me on luvox. it's my 3rd day taking it. i take it at night. I feel so stupid for listening to him. There are so many conflicting things out there about what to do it confuses me! My anxiety and obsessiveness reached an all time high that I didn't think I could do this on my own and now i'm starting to regret it.

 

I'm going to see a psychotherapist tomorrow. I'm hoping that maybe JUST therapy can help this? Maybe get some tools? Because when I look back I really did have a lot of GOOD days..but our brains tend to remember the bad days only (trouper thank you for that article!).

 

He also prescribed me xanax XR which i refuse to take and klonopin but i took 1 and felt like a tranquilizer dart hit me.

 

HELP!!! I guess my question is-are there statistics that good CBT alone can help? I don't want to suffer, but I don't want my body and mind on Anti Depressants. I know they obviously help people and 'save their lives' as i've read on webmd and other places but long term, and getting off of them, ugh I just don't want to deal.

 

My husband is furious with me, says i never stick with anything long enough to see the benefits. Which makes me feel worse. 

 

Any pep talk would be great-anyone experience with luvox? is it really harmful?

 

Oh-and I already have slightly high blood sugar and that's a potential side effect. 

[Altostrata]

stace, your jumping around on drugs is causing you a lot of problems. Luvox is not a magic pill, either. If you had to take something, why not citalopram?

 

Do you feel better now that you're taking Luvox?

 

You will have the identical problems going off it, if you ever decide to do that.

[Designgirl732]

I agree..i don't think SSRI's are for me..even when I was on citalopram (it made me gain about 15lbs in a month which is why I didn't go back on) I STILL had anxiety. My anxiety just manifested itself into obsessing about coming OFF of it! So obviously there's something else that needs to be addressed.

 

I've only taken 3- 25mg pills. I think i'm going to stop and JUST to CBT and take it from there. I talked to my psych today just to let him know and he wants me to come in. Lord knows what he'll want me to take. I'm not sure if there's anything off-label for anxiety that's out there but I really think that if i can get to the root of my anxiety issues and behaviors that maybe I have a chance of things just being steady,.

 

I mean, can therapy ALONE help? I sure hope so.

[Altostrata]

Keep in mind that psychiatrist may be very drug-oriented. You may wish to find a therapist with whom you can communicate.

 

Also keep in mind that you are an independent adult and you do not need an authority figure to make decisions for you or give you permission to make your own decisions.

[Designgirl732]

I took one last night as a 'last chance' - woke up 3 times sweating and in a panic, thoughts of suicide..i'm done with these pills. therapy only. wish me luck.

[Altostrata]

Please put the date you finished citalopram in your signature.

 

A very low dose, perhaps 2mg, might help your withdrawal syndrome and not cause weight gain. Adverse effects are generally dosage-related.

[Designgirl732]

Went to my psych and he gave me effexor xr 37.5 mg again..i told the pharmacist to hold the script-he said I just have to accept that this is who I am, my anxiety, etc. I'm going to really try and fight this on my own. 

[Designgirl732]

OH and he gave me a script for trazodone..is that even used these days????

[Altostrata]

See the Wikipedia article on trazodone.

 

Your doctor is throwing prescriptions at you.

[Designgirl732]

Alto-that's what I did. I am reinstating citalopram. I split the 10mg pill-didn't split exactly in half, so I took the smaller half. Probably not even 5 mg. But I think this will at least help me a bit so I can start working again on behavioral things and lower my baseline anxiety a bit so I can actually function. Thanks for hanging in there with me and i'll keep you posted.

 

I also got L-theanine just to have on hand if i need it throughout the day-better then taking a benzo.

 

I'll keep you posted...

[bubble]

Hello Stace,

 

it would be good to put the date when you reinstated citalopram in your signature. In order for the reinstatement to work, you have to take the same amount of the drug at the same time. Your measuring system is very inaccurate so it woudl be good to study some of the recommneded techniques of how to get the exact dose which is extermely important. Taking inaccurate doses is equivalent to changing doses which can only disrupt the CNS further. We want stability that will help it to heal.

 

Also note that Alto recommended 2 and not 5 mg but if you started with 5 mg than better stick with it. Pleae also give it time, at least 4 days, even 10 to see if the symptoms abate. Don't expect them to disappear completely but even the smallest of relieves will be a great sign. Just give it time.

 

Use Celexa liquid concentrate to taper
In the US, the liquid oral solution comes in 10 mg/5 mL (2 mg/mL), peppermint flavor. The bottle contains 240 mL. Pharmacy identifier is NDC 0456-4130-08

Use an oral syringe to precisely measure out doses as small as .01mg.

Tapering by cutting up tablets
The tablets are scored, which means they can be cut up. 

Use a digital scale to accurately measure doses cut from tablets. 

Making a Celexa solution yourself
See http://survivinganti...lution-yourself 

[Designgirl732]

Thanks bubble-sorry about that. March was when I took the 5mg last, and I reinstated today, which i'll put in my signature. I have a pill cutter-i'll do 5mg for now. I don't think I should go up. I'll see how I feel after 10 days-hopefully better!!

 

I remember asking the pharmacy for a liquid and they wouldn't do it.

[Designgirl732]

One more question..will 5mg even do anything? I know someone on 5mg citalopram and that's all he needs but he tapered to that. I hope I don't have to go up in any dosage to feel better-maybe this will be OK. Of course they say 10-20 is more 'therapeutic' but i'm sure people find relief at a smaller dose, right? (though my dr would laugh at me i'm sure)

[Rhiannon]

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/6036-why-taper-paper-demonstrates-importance-of-gradual-change-in-plasma-concentration/

See the charts on page 4. As you can see even a very small dose has a lot of effect. 

 

At this point these drugs are not "therapeutic" for you, they're just helping forestall withdrawal symptoms. And also probably causing them, the way you keep jumping around.

 

I think you should listen to Alto and Bubble and take 2 mg, and don't just use a pill cutter (not very accurate), get the liquid or make your own. You have to have a prescription, the pharmacy can't just hand you the liquid, but it can be prescribed.

 

All this jumping around is just making things worse. Please stop.

[Designgirl732]

Thanks Rhi..

 

I am, i'm stopping everything. well, not the .25 xanax. or the fish oils. But between the SAMe, the 4 days on LUVOX and this one day on CIT i'm just feeling worse, not eating, and not well at all. I have 2 little kids i have to take care of. 

 

I feel like i'm getting a fever or something. I'm dizzy b/c i'm barely eating. 

 

Somehow I managed to nail a job interview yesterday, I have no idea how. The mind once put in a certain place can be a very powerful thing. So I have to keep that in mind, no pun intended.

 

I'm looking forward to CBT starting next week. Hopefully that'll help. My poor nervous system needs a break!

 

Thank you all for putting up with me. 

[Designgirl732]

guys i'm really scared..i feel like i'm going to pass out from the lack of nutrition and water these past 2 weeks between the SAMe and the anxiety, then 4 days of luvox, etc..

my husband just went out to get dinner. I feel like a terrible parent. I can't even focus.

 

I'm not meant to be on anti depressants but I feel like there's no hope sometimes. sorry, just venting.

[Altostrata]

You must eat. Sweet potatoes, chicken, rice, split pea soup are all good. Eat at least 3 times a day, even if it's just a little.

 

Eat what appeals to you. There was a time when I could only eat croissants or buttered toast.

[Designgirl732]

Thanks Alto-i did eat a bit and felt a little more human. I took another 5mg citalopram this morning because i wanted to give it one more shot. My husband says i never stick with anything..

and I almost puked and got really dizzy. So, suffice it say, I really have to be done.

 

My anxiety is at an all time high so something has to be done but I'll figure it out.

[trouper]

i get calming acupuncture treatments every week that help for a bit. they also put seeds in my ears that i press when i start to get anxious. someone just suggested to me sitting in a dark room with candles and taking deep breaths, meditating. 

i count as i breath when i start to get anxious with exhales being slower than inhales.. deep breaths.... glad you got some food in you. also, something i keep forgetting, is to make sure you get enough water..

[Designgirl732]

so you guys think I should stop the 5mg of citalopram, right? i'm starting to feel a little better but i'm still nervous to be on anything. But believe it or not, my mood is up a bit and I feel stable. Placebo effect? 2 days on 5mg seems silly to be effective.

 

 

Thanks Trouper!

[bubble]

I'm sorry to say this Stace but you are still not getting it.

 

I thought we agreed you will stay on 5 mgs for months provided the reinstatement works. Luckily it is working and it's not silly at all. It just proves how powerful and consequently dangerous these drugs are. We've also been warning you to stop jumping around and now you want to do it again. What can I say? Not good.

 

It is really very important that you stick with this. You will have periods when you will feel better like you did when you posted your last post and probably this will be followed, even shortly afterwards, by periods of feeling as bad as ever. it's very important not to react to these symptoms by changing doses because it further traumatises the CNS which is desperately trying to regain its balance. 

 

I really don't understand where you saw that anyone thought you should stop taking 5 mg which you had just reinstated and which is working...  

 

We said just the contrary: stay on it for at least 30 days without jumping around in response to symptoms.

 

Here is what Alto wrote in 3 KIS of tapering: 2.c. Do not jump around in dosage. For most drugs, it takes about 4 days for the change to fully register in your system. Unless you have an IMMEDIATE bad reaction, wait at least 4-7 days to see how the change affects you. (If you have an immediate bad reaction, go back to the dosage you were taking before.)

 
Since withdrawal symptoms ordinarily fluctuate, you might have hours or days here and there when you don't feel well. One episode does not a pattern make. Do not panic and throw in another drug or supplement. Keep notes on paper of your daily symptom pattern. If you feel worse and worse over a week, the change was not a good one. It may be the decrease or increase was too large. Rather than jumping around in dosage, make an adjustment half-way.
 
2.d. Be patient, recovery is inconsistent and gradual. The nervous system is very complicated. It can repair itself, but it takes time to do this. In the meantime, you may experience The Windows and Waves Pattern of Recovery
 
3. Keep it stable.
 
The nervous system is delicate and very complicated. Normally, the autonomic system runs your body with numerous checks and balances, constantly gauging what hormones and transmitters need to be increased and which need to be decreased. Its job is to keep your body stable, at a tolerable temperature range, with everything running smoothly.
 
Psychiatric drugs interfere with the entire nervous system, not just the brain. This is why changing dosage of just one drug can affect your eyesight, your digestion, and your sleep. Taking psychiatric drugs affects the functions of the nervous system.
 
The nervous system, which works so hard to keep your body running smoothly, thrives on stability. When you take a psychiatric drug over a period of time (usually a month or more), your body becomes dependent on the drug. This is called physiological dependency.
 
The nervous system adapts itself to the drug like a plant growing on a trellis. If you tear the trellis away, the plant will be damaged. You need to remove the trellis gradually and allow the plant to retrain itself to its natural growth pattern.
 
Thus, the nervous system does best in a stable environment. Help your nervous system adapt to life without drugs by maintaining as much stability as you can. This is the way you can take care of yourself and help your nervous system to recover. We are our own worst enemies when it comes to stressing our nervous systems! Examples:
 
3.a. Do not suddenly quit taking your drugs. Do not skip doses to taper. These big, fast changes are the opposite of providing stability for your nervous system. Skipping doses causes the amount of the drug in your bloodstream to go up and down. Do not do this for any psychiatric drug.

 

3.b. Avoid binges. Even if you had no problems with them before, avoid overindulgence in alcohol, food, partying, sugar, staying up late, even exercise. All of these put the body and the nervous system under stress.
 

[Altostrata]

Well, I'm glad somebody read the 3KIS topic!

[Kali123]

guys i'm really scared..i feel like i'm going to pass out from the lack of nutrition and water these past 2 weeks between the SAMe and the anxiety, then 4 days of luvox, etc..

my husband just went out to get dinner. I feel like a terrible parent. I can't even focus.

 

I'm not meant to be on anti depressants but I feel like there's no hope sometimes. sorry, just venting.

Hi there - I just wanted to connect with you because, like you, I have 2 little kids at home counting on me. If you need to chat about how you're coping, feel free to PM me. Try to remind yourself to take the sensible advice above for the sake of your family, if not for you. It's not a personal failure to do a slow taper. Your quality of life and theirs depends on some mood stability. I wish you all the best

[Designgirl732]

OMG i'm so sorry you guys..I was just in a state of panic and anxiety (my whole issue) and I don't trust myself anymore because I probably never should've gone off the meds when I did or at least stayed at the lowest dose for a lot longer. 

 

I'm actually a very normal, cool fun person when I'm stable, I promise!

 

Yes-the plan is to STAY here at 5mg as long as I need to (at least 30 days as mentioned). I know there will be ups and downs, but at least i'm on the road to stability. I start CBT Monday. I feel a small bit of hope. That's all we can ask for, right?

 

I know to most, 5mg is laughable but if it keeps me sane and stable and I can work on behavioral stuff then so be it. I have a friend who is only on 5mg of cit and is staying there for a long time.

 

I'm going to take your advice on the other extra curriculars too..drinking, etc..I was going to go for a run tomorrow if i was up for it because obviously exercise is good but maybe just do yoga..?

Milkandmarble THANK YOU for reaching out..I will PM you when I need to-and you please do that same, ok?

[Altostrata]

5mg is not laughable around here. Some people start with 1mg.

[Designgirl732]

That's true..whatever works for some as long as they feel OK

[trouper]

hypersensitivity to meds during withdrawal is very common. when i was off meds for 3 months i took 50mg of 5-htp once and i couldn't believe how much it affected me.

[Designgirl732]

Trouper i feel 50mg 5Htp easily-puts me in a good mood though but not for long.

 

SO i'm just updating that today is the 4th day on 5mg citalopram and i didn't sleep at ALL last night. And i took a valium. This has never happened before. So much anxiety. I can't blame the citalopram as it's the 4th day on 5 mg (or maybe it is?) - I take it at 9 am. 

 

Anyway, I may be giving up in this too and NOT doing anything else for a while and just deal with panic when it arises through tools I learn in therapy. Is it possible to cure this terrible anxiety/panic disorder without meds? I'm sure going to give it a try.