☼ trouper prolonged Zoloft / sertraline withdrawal

[Altostrata]

It's the same as cortisol activity. Glutamate carries the signal. Lamotrigine reduces glutamatergic transmission.

[trouper]

so the cortisol is causing all of this? wow. i didn't think it was connected as i still get the ickiness when my cortisol is low.

 

maybe my "cortisol" phase was more epinephrine/adrenaline then. when my neurotransmitters were tested in december my epinephrine was 2-3x higher than normal. i definitely felt the epinephrine in my body and it seemed to go up and down when cortisol rose and fell (high in the am, lower in afternoon etc).

[trouper]

bubble, thanks! glad i could help.

[Altostrata]

Those cortisol and epinephrine tests are not very meaningful.

[Nadia]

This all sounds so familiar! I also was going nuts trying to understand what was going on... the only thing I ever got tested for that showed up out of range was cortisol (and prolactin the time before last I went off ADs), but I suspected there was something else going on as well with adrenaline... especially when I would wake with panic and this feeling of waves of shooting fire all over my body, and then the dips into depression and exhaustion and feeling sick. For a while I was going nuts reading about glutamate and GABA and NDMA receptors, serotonin and dopamine, the role of prolactin, hormones, etc. Thinking if we could just figure this out we could "unlock" withdrawal... and also wanting evidence that something was actually going on and it wasn't just pyschosomatic.

 

It didn't help that doctors dismissed my concerns with withdrawal. Especially because the worst of what I went through was 8 months after quitting, they seemed to think it was impossible for it to be related to quitting ADs. The last doctor I saw referred me to a psychiatrist when I told her that I suspected her prescription of metronidazole for amoebas had made me so much worse. She thought it was all in my head. (So that is FANTASTIC that you have a doctor who understands!)

 

At some point I gave up. Even on trying to convince friends. It is only now that I can look back and say, yes, that is DEFINITELY what was going on! I read my journals from another attempt at quitting in 2008, and I was surprised to see that I mentioned all of the same symptoms. I mentioned having diarrhea, for example, but wondered if it was something I ate. I mentioned feeling dizzy, and wondered what was causing it... The severe anxiety and insomnia and DP were the things that really stood out as repetitions, but reading those journals I realized how much more was tied in that I didn't even have a clue about at the moment. Even now it is not clear to me sometimes what is withdrawal and what isn't. But even with that, I've decided, who cares? Do I really need to understand the neurotransmitters and brain mechanisms involved?

What is clear is that no one thing can be isolated from the others. Which is why ADs get us in trouble in the first place! Mess with one thing, you're going to mess with the others. So now I just put this in the framework of "I'm destabilized"... and what is clear is that what will get me stable is eating well, doing regular exercise (gently), respecting my limits even if they seem laughable to others, not worrying too much about the details. I even stopped keeping a regular journal, and as much as I am able, I try not to worry about controlling my symptoms with supplements. I think I got better the less I tried to "mess with things"... I think, at least for me, I can be very sensitive to taking anything and have also gotten a bit paranoid about the effect of anything I take, to the point that the worry itself can set off my alerting system. It's a Catch-22!

This is why I try to focus now on letting go... on doing things to feel good, but without trying too hard to shape or control my experience. Even the past few days that I had some anxiety and took NAC to "calm down", I think it backfired. Over and over I relearn the lesson that less is more! Which is really difficult for me, because I am something of a control freak!

[trouper]

thanks for the replies nadia and alto.

on this site i usually only hear about cortisol, so i just assumed i went through a phase of high cortisol but now I'm realizing my september to february stint was epinephrine. yes, i know i can't rely on the naturopath's testing but my results came back with out of range high glutamate and epinephrine and a high level of gaba. my knowledgable doctor was poo-pooing the test when i told him about it, but when he saw the results, he admitted it was interesting and made a copy for my file. my doctor asked me to get a early morning cortisol blood test back in early feb (around the tail end of the adrenaline stint.) i was feeling the usual anxious and amped but my test came back on the high side of normal so i do believe my body was pushing high levels of epinephrine out off and on for those 5 months. 

the biggest issue i have when explaining whats going on is that almost everyone suggests that if i go back on zoloft, maybe this will all go away. they think its the obvious solution and I'm stupid for not considering it. i try to explain that getting off zoloft damaged my nervous system and getting back on won't repair it. sometimes they get it, sometimes they don't.

i'm the same as you when i need to change a supplement or med - I'm highly vigilant and anxious waiting for any reaction which revs my system up, makes it hard to sleep, etc. i'm hoping i will get desensitized with all of this but i don't really see much difference yet. hopefully we will master these skills. we are definitely getting lots of practice!

[trouper]

i was starting to feel on the up and up a bit this past week but having a down day today, mentally and physically. i think seeing my doctor yesterday triggered the low mood. usually i feel good and hopefully after seeing him but yesterday i feel  i may be getting worse instead of better which was a downer and not good on anxiety. I've been having some weird headaches the last week and a half. sometimes it feels familiar to early withdrawal but other times it feels different. sometimes its localized and sensitive when i touch the area while during early withdrawal it was pretty generalized. also the sinus sensations seem to be getting worse. in january it was just sinus, then it went to be sinus and top teeth and a few days ago it started to go to the left side of the top and bottom of my teeth along with sinus and teeth pressure. my doctor thinks i have inflammation issues and maybe histamine issues. he told me to take turmeric. he thinks its pollen related but i'm not sure as it comes and goes in waves. I'm thinking it may be withdrawal. also I've been having urgency issues where i feel i have to pee right away - sometimes barely making it! i wonder if thats withdrawal as well. so frustrating and discouraging with these new symptoms happening a year off.

i woke up at 3am and starting thinking about these things so i worked anxiety up a bit. not too bad but enough to raise cortisol and adrenaline, which is easy to do. i was able to go back to a stage 1 sleep for a bit but am physically feeling off today. i walked with a friend who walks faster than i do and i tried to keep pace. i did feel a bit lightheaded like low sugar or blood pressure or something - hard to describe. i get that every now and then, thinking i may faint. my chest also felt a bit weird. now I'm just relaxing at home and  trying to be mindful and wait for it to pass telling myself its just withdrawal. fun times.

oh as for headaches, i think posture may be a trigger too. i don't have the greatest posture and i tend to sit looking at my phone or computer for hours a day with my neck tilting downward. that seems to make things worse. i try to prop up pillows on my lap and under my arms to help but i still catch myself looking down.

med update: I've been taking 1.25mg of lamotrigine again, pill form for about 11 days now. doc ordered a prescription compound of 1.5mg which i should get later this week. hopefully going up that little bit will be okay because if not, I'm going to be stuck with a bunch more pills to add to my collection.

[Altostrata]

Do the headaches have any daily pattern in relation to when you take the lamotrigine?

[trouper]

i don't think so but i will try to pay more attention. the first day i got the headache was the worst which was 3 days off trileptal. i took my first reinstated dose of pill lamo that evening. i was curious if the headache was a withdrawal from the lamo/trileptal. it did lift a bit but it wasn't the end of the headaches. for the rest of the week i got the pains off and on but didn't get a full blown headache again until a week later. now dealing with the pains off and on again. i am wondering if the trial and error with liquid lamo/trileptal triggered something.

[Annabel]

Hi,

 

Just thought it was worth mentioning that Urgency can be an early symptom of urinary tract infection, especially the "barely making it" part along with it. 

 

Hope your day improves and those head aches let up a bit. 

[trouper]

thank you annabel! i guess i can get one of those over the counter tests and see. there is also a thread going on about utis and bladder issues here. seems it may be related to w/d:

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/5973-urination-bladder-issues/

[Altostrata]

Does a low-dose aspirin help?

[trouper]

i have yet to try that. i have some that i got because i think you mentioned its good to help you go back to sleep?

i usually try to wait the headaches out unless it gets bad then i go to a single advil. i never know if its best to let a headache run its course or to try to squelch it. 

[Altostrata]

I would make a note of it in your symptom record and then take a baby aspirin. If that works, no need to overdo it.

[trouper]

hm. the stuff i have is enteric coated. is there a preference? i can get some non coated if its an issue (also if i decide to use it for early morning wakings.) i guess enteric coated works slower.

[Altostrata]

No, enteric-coated aspirin is preferable. Also, take with food to protect the stomach. I take a fish oil capsule on the theory it's food-like enough.

[trouper]

i tried it last night. i think it helped a bit. thank you

[trouper]

i was telling my dad about the sinus/top teeth pressure sensations the other day. he told me he knows exactly what I'm talking about and he gets that sensation when he's about to get a cold sore. he gets cold sores from eating a lot of nuts and i think I've gotten a few that way too. i've been eating tons and tons of nuts this year which coincides with the pressure, which now i realize has been getting worse as i've been eating more. surprisingly though, i have not gotten a cold sore, so i assumed i was eating a safe amount. here i've been thinking its withdrawal and have been waiting for it to heal and pass and worried that its been getting worse when all along it may be a reaction that i can possibly change. duh.

 

i'm now curious if i have a food allergy because aside from the sinus pressure issues, i seem to feel some head buzzing/tinnitus activity off and on throughout the day and night, but also after i eat. i wonder if this could all be connected somehow (sinus pressure, headaches, sound sensitivity, buzzing, tinnitus.) it could be a number of things though so it may take time for me to sort this out. i could be affected by the nuts, l-argenine, histamines, gluten, dairy, pollen, barometric pressure, a sinus infection, or just withdrawals.

 

last week i did try some new supplements and the buzzing/tinnitus got worse, along with a new symptom. i took the turmeric for a few days, l-lysine once to try to counter the l-argenine (if that was the issue), baby bayer aspirin, and i tried liquid fish omega 3 oil instead of my normal omega 3 pills. the head activity could also be a reaction to the lamo too as it kind of reminds me of the feelings i got when i was on too much. in the meantime I've stopped eating nuts and stopped taking supplements. the pressure may be lessening but not the buzzing.

 

my new symptom is a weird sensation/wave feeling on my right thigh lasting for a second or 2. its not an unfamiliar feeling as I've felt it before but sometimes it passes over my whole thigh every few minutes and during the night as well. it doesn't hurt, doesn't twitch, not hot, not cold, just a weird feeling - kind of like the reaction when you gently touch your skin and it tingles but it quickly runs over my whole thigh.

 

i'm wondering if i should see an allergist to help me try to figure this out. if i try to eliminate all these foods, i will just be drinking water.

 

any insights are greatly appreciated.

[trouper]

this morning was probably one of the best mornings i've had since december, mentally and physically. i wanted to make sure i documented it here. i really needed to feel this for my mental health and continued strength. i saw windows of my old self in the morning which i usually don't see until the afternoons.

on 4/26 the buzzing/tinnitus/agitation got worse and worse and then just cut with a few little aftershocks. i believe it was the end of a wave as i haven't felt much of it since. after stopping supplements and nuts, my sinus pressure has lightened up, too. i still get some waves of it which coincides with minor ickiness waves I've been having. the sensations on my thigh also went away. i'm slowly adding back some supplements.

i've had this reoccurring cycle after a wave ends - usually after i start to feel better physically i get apprehension with anxiety for the next few days (usually because my mind isn't dwelling on the physical stuff anymore and is trying to find something else to dwell on out of habit), then it morphs into a different anxiety (more neuro-emotion where i have trouble letting go of negative thoughts, scaring me, spiking anxiety...) and then it eases up in a few days with self talk and mindfulness.

i read up on the neuro-emotion thread yesterday and it helped me tremendously. i was worried the neuro-emotions were my underlying anxiety coming back and that i would need to do a lot of work to deal with it but now i believe its 10x worse because of withdrawal and that it should lighten up over time. it just gets confusing because the physical part subsides making me think the wave ended, unaware that i'm still mentally sensitive. now that i've reframed my thoughts that my anxiety is withdrawal and not underlying, i'm a bit more relaxed and less fearful leading to today's better day. i still have the intrusive thoughts but i'm managing to keep them at bay.

anhedonia has lifted up quite a bit lately as well. i spent a nice day out of the house by myself today - 7 whole hours! i went to acupuncture, took my time going shopping (found a bunch of cute things i liked which is rare), had lunch alone, stopped by a nursery to look at plants and actually enjoyed the day! i wasn't just busy trying to get through it. i'm trying to stay out of the house, but not push myself, to build up resiliency to see if i can go back to work soon. my resiliency appears to have gone down since i took medical leave. my theory is i made myself stronger trying to get through work which probably didn't let my body heal as quickly and now that i'm more relaxed, my body is taking advantage to repair itself. thats just a theory.

 

maybe one day i will want to travel again and get over my anxieties to do it.

 

although a better day, symptoms i'm still having:

- brain zaps

- bits of brain fog

- stubborn anxious thoughts (neuro-emotions)

- light headaches

- early morning wakings (~4:30am)

- a light finger twitch

[Petunia]

It sounds like you are experiencing some very 'normal' windows and waves as you recover, I relate to a lot of what you have described and I'm still going through the windows and waves.  Its great that you are learning about how to deal with this pattern.  Your day out sounded lovely, its so nice when a window opens up.  I'm sure you will have increasingly good days.

 

I like your theory, from what I understand, our bodies do their best repair work while we are in a relaxed state.

[trouper]

thank you so much petu. i'm glad you can relate. there is something comforting about others relating to you when you are surrounded by people who don't.

 

today was another milestone morning which i needed to document here. i still woke up a few times in the too-early-morning but was tired enough to fall back asleep (this isn't too uncommon) but this time when it was time to get up, i was actually still tired! i have not felt like this since early september, 8 months ago! on top of that, i didn't feel the underlying anxiety so i woke up feeling like my old self. perhaps my cortisol is finally trying to set itself straight. yesterday it must have been lifting too which is why i had a good morning.

[trouper]

friday i received my higher dosage of lamo (1.50mg capsules) and took it but unfortunately it was too much for my highly sensitive self. that day wasn't too bad but i really felt crappy saturday (highly agitated, sensitivity to sound, headaches, and some vertigo sensations) so that threw me off again for a bit. i'm back to the more alert 4:30am wakings. now I'm also on the 1.25mg lamo again (quartering 5mg chewables.) i really felt a deeper calming of my alert system friday as well so its too bad i can't stand 1.5mg. :/

yesterday i had another one of those buzzing/tinnitus/brain zaps waves. it was just as bad as the one 9 days prior as it got worse and worse then finally cut with a few aftershocks. my doc believes things are shifting around for the better and he think its the serotonin receptors. this morning my half-awake brain was pretty buzzy & zappy again and its been like that a lot today. i ended up with a bad headache as well, which reminded me of early withdrawal. I'm not too surprised because there is a lot of activity going on up there. one observation - my brain zaps have been shooting several little zaps (about 4-6 zaps a second) for months now. as of this morning they are now just 1 zap a second so something changed. these zaps and headaches really remind me of early withdrawal but hopefully its for the good this time. i can't help but be apprehensive. :/

last week was a good week and my best since last year. I'm not feeling as well now but very grateful to have experienced feeling close to normal for a little while anyway. i asked me doc if i was actually healing or if lamo was masking it and he assured me that it was me. how wonderful to hear that. he said lamo doesn't touch serotonin at all. i left there feeling a bit confused as i thought most of my crappiness now was the glutamate activity and the high cortisol/autonomic deregulation. I'm not sure how the serotonin receptors play into all of this. i was running out of time so i didn't ask for clarification. 

[trouper]

now i understand. today I'm getting waves of low mood and other feelings which I'm assuming is the serotonin. how silly of me to have forgotten about this.

[Altostrata]

Please put theories about serotonin and neurotransmitter imbalance aside. You are long past issues related to merely serotonin.

[trouper]

update:

i've been back on 1.25mg lamo consistently for over 2 weeks now. a pharmacist made me a liquid form of lamo from my chewables and it seems to be working. yay.

 

here is an update on my recent symptoms:

- i don't feel the sinus/teeth pressure as much; usually when i walk in the cold i can feel it.

- i get waves of pain in the back of my eyes so i wonder if the sinus/teeth sensations moved to eyes, too.

- the odd sensation of flushing on my thigh seems to be back but more generalized on my legs and less obvious

- my right middle finger twitch is more obvious and persistent.

- i've been getting odd spots of pain that don't last too long. its usually at night and wakes me up. my shoulder will hurt, jaw bone, the back of my knee/elbow, etc. I've been drinking coconut water in hopes its a dehydration/electrolyte issue as i also wake up thirsty.

- sometimes my heart will beat strongly for a few minutes. this has been going off and on for months now but i don't think i've mentioned it here.

- my bladder urgency issues subsided for a month but it seems to be back since yesterday. i assume its withdrawal as it coincides with all these other weird things.

 

i guess these issues are dysautonomia?

 

aside from this, my buzzy/zaps spells and headaches have calmed down for now. yay. I'm still a bit zappy upon awakening but its calmed down recently too. even though i've felt less icky physically for the last few days, i have a low mood, anhedonia seems to be back some and my alert system seems to be high again. i get some waves of tinnitus, usually in the morning but it hasn't been too bothersome lately.

it confuses me when i feel better physically. i initially think i'm in a window but realize i still have the mental icky stuff. i haven't had a good day where both physical and mental symptoms were both light since that window ~3 weeks ago. there was one morning that i woke up at 4:52am though, but mentally i was still off. right now the thing bothering me the post is my alert system. i wish i could handle more lamo to help with it. :/

[Altostrata]

Sounds like your nervous system is slowly settling down.

 

I used to get sharp pain spasms, but they went away. I think acupuncture was some help.

[trouper]

alto, that was nice to hear. i hope so.

 

the acupuncturist tried to settle my finger down 2 different ways.. so far no luck. :/

[Petunia]

even though i've felt less icky physically for the last few days, i have a low mood, anhedonia seems to be back some and my alert system seems to be high again....

....it confuses me when i feel better physically. i initially think i'm in a window but realize i still have the mental icky stuff. i haven't had a good day where both physical and mental symptoms were both light since that window ~3 weeks ago....

We have similar circumstances, protracted withdrawal after coming off long term SSRI use too fast.  I'm going through the same cycle as you with fluctuating physical and emotional symptoms, with the rare window of feeling 'normal'.  I also get confused when the physical stuff subsides, and yet I still feel bad.

 

But for me, the feeling bad now, isn't as bad as it was a year ago, this takes time, it can be a slow process.  In reality, it doesn't make much difference, we want to feel good and happy now, not just slightly less bad ..... but this is the way recovery is.

 

I've had so many weird symptoms start suddenly in various body parts, hang around for a few days to a few weeks/months and then go away.  You might find that the random pain and twitching symptoms settle down by themselves when they are ready.

 

Thank you for the update.

[trouper]

yes, petu, i agree we are in the same place in cycle.   even though I've been in protracted withdrawal for over a year, it wasn't until january that it turned incredibly horrible and scary so i've been using that as my reference point.  you are right though - when i feel the same familiar crappiness i have to think about it to realize its not as intense lately as it has been, but  again, crappiness is crappiness but i will take less crappy any day.  

 

thank you for sharing about the weird body stuff. it calms my mind knowing it happens to others in withdrawal. my thigh flushes are more constant, intense and lasting longer now. now i am getting a patch of goosebumps during the flushing on my thigh as well which last about 10 seconds. awesome stuff. I'm assuming all this weird stuff is withdrawals but part of me is worried that i'm not ignoring something more serious. my finger twitch is still going on but ebbs and flows on intensity. i guess once i get used to these other weird body things and i see them go away i will feel better. in the meantime.....

[Petunia]

 I'm assuming all this weird stuff is withdrawals but part of me is worried that i'm not ignoring something more serious.

 

If symptoms are severe, last a long time, continue to get worse, its always your choice to have your doctor run some tests, if just for your own peace of mind.  Not everything can be attributed to withdrawal, you have to use your own judgement though.

[trouper]

thanks, petu. my doctor thinks my finger twitch may not be from withdrawal and may be something else. that may explain why i haven't read on here of anyone else having a finger twitch and why its lasting so long. who knows though. i hope it just goes away soon so i don't have to deal with it. i believe the thigh flushing is withdrawal though. it went away after a few days, but i came back a little this morning but I'm in a wave now.

 

i ended up having a nice 2 day window last weekend. unfortunately i got myself in a highly anxious state and am back in a crappy wave. lots of things have been making me pretty anxious lately because of my stupid heightened alert system. my brain is just throwing all this negative crap at me and i'm having trouble ignoring it and letting it pass so it makes the anxiety worse. its been off and on for a few days now and I'm still having trouble getting my bearings. this anxiety episode is up there with the other major episodes i've had. the one in sept raise my adrenaline and cortisol so i could barely sleep for 3 days. it took a few months to get a window from that. the other big one was in january which contributed to the horrible glutamate activity that took me almost 4 months to finally get a window from.  i am grateful I'm on lamotrigine. i definitely can feel more glutamate activity which is making my alert system even more sensitive. i'm also scared the incredibly horrible/scary symptoms will come back, which a few have so far to a smaller degree. now I'm just apprehensively waiting to see what the damage is with this one.

[trouper]

i'm still in a pretty crappy wave. i get waves of the icky brain fog, cognition, anhedonia stuff but the worst is the anxiety/fears and other mental stuff. i get waves of feeling a lot worse mentally and physically but trying to hang tight. high alert system is not helping at all. its actually making this so much worse. reading a mindfulness/ACT (acceptance and commitment therapy) book. reading the waves and windows thread and the neuro-emotions thread here really helps too. 

 

i've had some health scares this week so i've been busy with doc appts. so far things seem to be resolving on their own which is good as i was really stressed about taking an antibiotic. thank you, body <3. i started to see a craniopathy/kinesiology specialist for my nerve and muscle issues. his specialties are the cranium, CNS and tmj disorder. he thinks all my face pressure pain, nerve issues and finger twitch is stemming through teeth clenching in my sleep which the rest of my body is trying to compensate for. i agree but i wonder if waves trigger my muscles to tense up as i get waves of tightness when I'm awake also. I'm a skeptic but he did do some magical things already that make me think he may know what he's doing and can help. crossing fingers this relieves at least some of my issues..

 

also fingers crossed this wave lightens up soon too.

[Jemima]

Trouper,

 

Try to keep in mind that what you're going through now is the worst of withdrawal. I was barely able to get out of bed and get necessities during my first five months after a too fast taper from Lexapro. After that, I was able to function with some effort and started to have all too brief windows here and there.

 

I think you're doing very well for someone who's been on an SSRI for 17 years.  Hang on.  Better days are coming.

[trouper]

thank you, jemima. that is very comforting to hear, especially from someone who has made it through. so happy to hear that with all you've been through, you are now okay.

[Nikki]

Hi Trouper

 

I know someone who is off zoloft for 13 months and did a year tapering.  They still have protracted WD symptoms, however there is improvement.  I think it is the nature of getting off zoloft and a host of other drugs.  Teeth grinding, jaw clenching is a biggy.  I have it.  Have had it for years, since taking paxil years ago.

 

Your concern about having to take an antibiotic is so understandable.  So many of us are affected by them.  Glad you are okay.  I understand the cranial massages are wonderful  

 

Everything you talked about is sooooo understandable and normal reactions in every single way.  You are human going thru a WD process Takes alot out of us and produces fear.

 

There is a post here that helps so much in putting things into perspective.  Neuro-emotions by Healing.  I should look at it again.

 

A few weeks back I was given the entire Attacking Anxiety and Depression Program (@ home) program.  I did it years ago back in the late 90's.  It is very, very helpful.

 

Hugs

[trouper]

thank you, nikki!

my doc has yet to give me a cranial massage, which does sound wonderful! he does press the hell out of my head and the inside of my mouth which seems to be relieving things some but not my nerve issues yet.. just relief on my tmj and perhaps face pressure. i see a dentist he works with tomorrow to look further into my tmj issues.  I'm the meantime he told me to stop yoga as he thinks some of my issues are sacrum related. I'm not completely sure i agree or fully understand but i will listen to him and try it out. it will suck not having those classes to go to during the week though.

 

i will look into your anxiety program. I'm glad you are getting relief from it. thanks of the recommendation!

 

thank you for the reassurance as well. i need it...