bobcat with celexa problems

[bobcat]

Well, here I am again, shown up out of the woodwork to make a post. I had hoped that I would be posting a success story here. I've done so well on my taper for the most part, and I was only on 10mg to begin with. But here I am at 1/2 of a mg and things have gone terribly wrong. It started off with a sense of dissatisfaction with where I was in life: my job, education, etc. And it just overwhelmed me from there. Now its a general, suffocating anxiety. The worst part is, something like this was what induced me to go on the stuff in the first place. So I'm wondering, is this withdrawal or am I just stuck like this forever? I'm actually thinking about reinstating, which is crazy! I don't want to do that! I just wish there were some way to know that this will pass and I'll be okay down the road. My brother came through okay. But who knows with me. It seems that everything has turned on me at once, and it's hard to hold out hope that it will get better. Sometimes I feel like I'm going crazy and have to do something, but there's just nothing to do. It's to the point that I can't even really locate anything that's really bothering me. That's a bad sign.

 

Anyway, so it's bad news. I hope others are fairing better.

[Petunia]

Hi bobcat,

Welcome back    I'm sorry to hear that you are having a wave of symptoms at the moment.  Congratulations on getting down to .5mg, but perhaps you have been tapering too fast.  Many people find that as the dose gets lower, withdrawal symptoms increase and the taper needs to be slowed down.

 

Its important to taper slowly as the dose gets lower.  What we recommend is a taper that's based on a percentage of your current dose not of your original dose. This paper will show you why: http://survivinganti...concentration/ 

(Check out the charts on page 4 and see how the receptor occupancy drops much more sharply at lower doses.)

 

How long have you been feeling these increased symptoms?  When did you drop to .5mg.  What dose did you drop from?

 

It would be great if you would update your signature with some details of how you have been tapering.

 

This may just be a temporary wave, and if you hold for a while, it will subside.  When symptoms arise during a taper and don't subside, its evidence that the taper is too fast and you need to hold for longer, or even updose slightly, no need to reinstate back to the original dose.

 

Don't worry, this is just a small glitch in your taper, fill us in with a few more details about what's been happening and we can help you get back on track.

 

Here is the link to our symptoms and self care section, you may find some useful ideas to help manage symptoms as you recover.  Especially read the topics pinned at the top.

 

Many people find  fish oil and magnesium helpful, see King of Supplements: Omega 3 Fatty Acids (Fish Oil) and Magnesium, Nature's Calcium Channel Blocker

 

Petu.

[bobcat]

thanks for the response. I'll try to answer in more detail when I'm not feeling so awful. I went back up to 2mg to try to stabilize. I just can't live with this. It's so bad! I've got to try to even out. But the worst is wondering if my symptoms are from withdrawal or just the depression/anxiety that's always been underneath rearing its head again. How can I ever know? 

[wantrelief]

Hi bobcat,

 

I wanted you to know that I relate to what you are going through.  I am trying to updose too after getting lower on Celexa and having problems (although I didn't make it as low as you did).  I too started to have a lot of anxiety, as well as insomnia and suicidal thoughts.  I have had a few good days but mostly not so good so I am still slowly increasing.  Incidentally, I have a twin too and started on ADs because of a difficult time during graduate school (I think you mentioned this in your earlier postings).  I really hope you get some relief soon.

 

Michele

[bobcat]

Horror, that's what I've experienced. Absolute horror. I've upped all the way up to my original 10mg dose. That's how horrible it was. I can't even begin to describe it. I'm still feeling crappy and on top of it all I feel like a failure. Will I ever be off this stuff? I'm facing the same side effects I had before. But I feel trapped. 

[Rhiannon]

Bobcat, how long have you been on the 10 mg? Given how low you had gotten, you might do better on less. More is not necessarily better, especially when you've been tapering and your brain and body has adapted to a lower dose. I hate to recommend that you change things up, given how destabilizing the changing is, but if you've only been on the 10 for a few days you might want to try something more like 5 mg. And then give it more time.

 

My guess is that you were cutting too fast at the lower doses.  It's a common mistake. There's a lag time effect and you can think you're doing okay until it catches up with you.

 

That's one of the advantages of the extremely slow taper--if you do overshoot, you don't have very far to adjust.

[bobcat]

Thanks Rhi. I've only taken the full 10 one day. It's already made me feel better. But I hate this stuff! I think I'll cut to five, as you suggested. As for lowering too fast, I think you're right there too. I was going down by ten percent drops but not calculated off the previous dose. Being just hours from such a horrible experience, it makes me feel all the more for you guys. 

 

Wantrelief: Sounds like our stories are pretty similar. I hope you're doing well and not in too much distress.

 

Pitu: Thanks again for your response. I will try to update my information soon. Right now I'm still feeling too low to do it.  

[bobcat]

Hey there. Well, I've been about four days on my updose to 5mg from when I crashed at 1/2mg. It's still pretty bad. I have moments, usually in the evening where I think maybe it's okay, but most the time I seem to be on the edge. The mornings are the worst. I'm not sure what to do at this point. I don't want to go back up to my original dose, but I'm not sure this is working.

[DLB]

Wow, how long was your taper? I'm currently on .8mg after a year taper from 10mg. paxil and i'm getting concerned with doing these final drops and this just reaffirmed my fears. When did you start feeling like crap? I have felt bad the whole way down but hit hell at 2.35 then got better until lately.

[wantrelief]

I am sorry you are still feeling badly.  I am too.  I have read a few stories now similar to our situations where people have just held where they were for quite awhile and did stabilize but it took several months.  I am wondering if I should try that at this point and stop increasing as I had been.  It just feel so terrible though it is hard to believe it will get better and waiting several months sounds impossible but I am not sure there is any other choice.  I just wanted to let you know that you are not alone and I understand how you are feeling.  

[mammaP]

Hi Bobcat, I'm sorry that you are feeling so bad. When a wave hits at such a small dose it is devastating.

Not just the awful withdrawal symptoms but the disappointment that you can be hit this way after tapering so carefully.

I would do as Rhi suggested and hold where you are for a while to stabilise. We all want to do something, anything to

help but sometimes the best thing to do is nothing and just hold for a while. Things will settle down again and you will

feel better. I hope you start to feel some improvement soon.

[bobcat]

DLB: I tapered by 10% decreases every month over a period of ten months, where the 10% was always indexed to the original dose. That you are on .8mg indicates you are using the more conservative taper that this site recommends, where you always calculate the 10% from the last dose size. I think that's really smart. I wish I had done that. I guess you've got to learn things the hard way sometimes, but what a HARD way. 

 

Wantrelief: thanks for the encouragement. I know what you mean about wondering if you can wait long enough to stabilize. When you're writhing in the thick of it, a week seems an eternity; and holding even that long, an impossible task. It's as if you were treading water in the ocean, already exhausted, and having to contemplate hanging on in that fashion for another twenty four hours. The mere thought of it puts my stomach into a knot. I hope you have windows of feeling better, any moment of the day where it eases up for you. I have those usually at night, and I try to hang on to them and use them to prove the transience of the next wave. I can't say it changes the character of the wave, but it helps morale.

 

Thanks MammaP. You're exactly right. It's that double edge: the wave itself and the discouragement of having to updose. I will try to hold on. 

[bobcat]

Well, yesterday I had a pretty good day and thought perhaps I had stabilized on my up-dose to 5mg. But today I’ve had a bad morning and seem to have lost a lot of progress (again, all the more disheartening since it’s on an up-dose and not a cut). Maybe the waves and windows model applies in this type of case as well. But my old fear has resurfaced: I had problems with melancholy before I went on celexa, and whenever I start suffering, the question lingers around the edges of my mind as to whether I may attribute my experiences to withdrawal or whether I must attribute them to the original condition for which I was put on AD. It’s a scary question, and it prompts me to inquire of anyone here about their theories of depression and anxiety. My father and twin brother have the same disposition to melancholy, though my brother went of Ads and has been doing really well for near on a year (you’d think that would mean I could, right?); the theory I’ve always heard is that it is genetic and unavoidable and that I simply must take something for it. I’ve read on this site the notion that withdrawal is a symptom of the brain’s fighting to renew a healthy homeostasis. That sounds extremely plausible to me. But I wonder, does the brain fight in the same way against naturally occurring depression? Do I have hope if it returns? They’re all such frightening questions.

[tgirl]

Hello Bobcat,

Sorry you are not doing well.

I wish I could answer your questions.

Prayers sent your way,

Tgirl

[bobcat]

Thanks tgirl. Prayers to you as well. I hope you're having an okay holiday season.

[wantrelief]

Hi Bobcat,

 

It sounds like you are wondering if the symptoms you are experiencing is a return of your original condition or related to withdrawal?  In my experience trying to get off of anti-depressant medication, the symptoms I have experienced are way beyond anything I ever experienced prior to taking medication.  I too have always had a more melancholic personality but that was way more manageable than what I've experienced with withdrawal.  Now I have experienced deep depression and severe anxiety - all of which I never had before trying to get off of medications.  So I think what you are experiencing is probably not your original condition but rather the effect of decreasing the medication.  

 

I hope that is helpful in someway and I hope you are feeling better soon,

Michele

[bobcat]

Thanks, Michele. It is helpful, and I think you're right. Maybe my wondering about that is itself a symptom of the withdrawal. It would certainly fit the pattern of self-doubt and insecurity. I hope that you experience relief soon also. Hang in there.

[Altostrata]

Yes, reinstating is sometimes a waves-and-windows affair.

 

A tendency to melancholy does not necessarily mean a need for drugs. Some of us are just pessimistic types. And the experience of withdrawal tends to make us fearful and dubious.

 

You can manage this with non-drug means -- please see the Symptoms forum.

[Lookingforhope55]

Hi bobcat. I had to updose 5 weeks ago. Went from 4mgs up to 10. I couldn't deal with withdrawals and function at work. I'm trying hard not to feel like a failure. I'm feeling tired. Hope I get my energy back soon. Maybe someday we'll all feel better soon. I can get so discouraged. Hope you feel better soon.

[bobcat]

Thank you Alto. I've been looking through the forum. There is a lot of good stuff. 

 

Lookingforhope55: I'm sorry you're feeling discouraged. How fast were you tapering? It helped me a lot to understand that consistent cuts in doses equal exponential drops in transporter occupancy (in other words, exponential drops in the efficacy of the drug and exponential increases in dis-regulation). This made me realize I was cutting too fast. I hope you feel better soon. 

[bobcat]

Hi Alto,

 

I happened upon an article called Antidepressant Withdrawal Syndrome in Psychology Today in which you were featured. There appeared in the article the following paragraph: 

 

Several receptors--including 5-HT1A--aren't especially malleable, moreover, and take longer to sprout anew after drug treatment ends, delaying the patient's return to neuronalhealth. Indeed, some studies I consulted found that in certain patients those receptors fail to grow back at all, in effect leaving the patients worse off than before. 

The prospect of these receptors never growing back was a little frightening. I wonder, do you think the studies simply didn't follow the patients long enough? I read somewhere else on this site (sorry can't remember exactly where; I think it had to do with intermittent fasting) that you think neurogenesis altogether is merely hypothetical, and that a re-patterning of the nervous system is paramount in recovery. Sorry to have all my references and links together. I've been a little spotty cognitively of late.

 

-bobcat 

(link is exter" in Paxil Research Studies 19.3 [1994], 311-15.)

[Altostrata]

I don't know how anyone would determine receptors haven't grown back in humans unless the brain tissue was examined. I would like to know the source of that information.

 

Neurogenesis and re-patterning of the nervous system are not hypothetical; they occur all the time. They are essential to recovery from drug damage. We hold them to be truths on this site.

[wantrelief]

Hey there Bobcat,

 

Were you able to stabilize?  I hope you are feeling better now.  I am still struggling to find stability but am hopeful if I am patient things will get better.

[bobcat]

Alto: Good to know. I think I probably just got mixed up when I mentioned what I thought you had said about neurogenesis. Sorry.

 

wantrelief: I have stabilized in a way. By that I mean I no longer have the excruciating anxiety that I can only describe as something like spiritual akathisia. Now I am fighting general feelings of worthlessness and the thought that I am a failure in life. These can be very persistent and make you feel almost panicked at times, as if everything were slipping away and you're not doing anything to stop it. It doesn't help that my memory and comprehension seem to be horrible now. I can't say I'm in the middle of any acute withdrawal at the moment, so I'm not sure why that is. Whatever the cause, it doesn't help the old self image. Anyway, I'm still chugging away a day at a time, like that anthropomorphized tugboat in the children's book whose name I can't recall at the moment.

 

Sorry to hear you are still struggling. I hope you experience relief soon. It's always good to stay hopeful. That's what I'm trying to do. I hope you're feeling better today.    

[wantrelief]

Thanks for your kind note, Bobcat.  I have to wonder if the feelings you are having are related to withdrawal and will subside as the anxiety did (great news, by the way!), especially if you weren't having these symptoms prior to decreasing Celexa.  I am hopeful that is what is going on for you!  I liked the little tug boat image…chugging away one day at a time - that is all we can really do.