success ☼ Bayboy: Mirtazapine withdrawal

[Bayboy]

Thank you...that made me feel much better....I'm still mad that I caved to a sleep deprived irrational brain though :-)

[Northcoastboy]

Oh...it's the wired, vigilant, hyper alert kind for sure

That describes last night perfectly. I drop off like a baby and wake up shortly after "wired, vigilant, hyper alert"

I've got a fit bit flex I wear on my wrist. As well as my steps it also monitors sleep. Restlessness and awakening. Even on bad night I get more than I think when I view fit bit online next morning.

Hang on in there.

[Altostrata]

Please see our topics on sleep in the Symptoms forum.

[Bayboy]

I have still not stabilized yet, thought i had after 10 days than crashed with poor sleep.  Got 30 min last night, cortisol related anxiety was through the roof at bedtime, nothing worked.  Feeling rough.  I figure it will take some time to even out and that staying at 7.5 mg is the best course of action, I'm just not sure if this will start to feel like my failed CT attempt, ie.  getting worse and worse.  I know that no one can answer that, but, do reinstatement at low doses also cause a non-linear pattern before it corrects itself.  For me, stabilization would be minimal symptoms and if possible 4-5 hrs sleep consistent.  My other question is, do liquid solutions react diff in the body than dry, i.e.absorbed quicker.  I only seem to ask these annoying questions when I've had a desperate, rough night!!!.  Otherwise, I try to go with the flow.

[Altostrata]

Yes, you've got it exactly, reinstatement at low doses also causes a non-linear recovery pattern before it corrects itself.

 

The liquid form is absorbed faster, this makes a difference for some people. If this is too much for you, one way to manage is to split the dose and take an hour or so apart.

[Bayboy]

Thanks Alto,

 

I will give that a try….it just seems to Rev things up much stronger than the dry format, hence the insomnia.  On a positive note, despite only 30 min or so of sleep, i don't feel the usual low mood that is normally associated with that.  I'll take that as a good sign.

[dalsaan]

Hey Bayboy

 

Just wondering how you are going

 

D

[Bayboy]

D

 

Thanks for checking in.

 

I have had decent sleep for 4 nights and hoping it continues.  I have no other symptoms aside from the surges.  They come and go throughout the day and are exacerbated by the obvious…sugar, caffeine, stress etc.  Occasionally, but less often now, I experience a low, depressed mood but it is always consistent with the surges.  Somehow, the cortisol/adranalin dumps inversely effect Serotonin or other neurotransmitters and this happens quickly.  These surges also flare up enough to cause the "feeling" of chest constriction and shallow breathing but I know its not real so I try not to give it any attention.  The only annoying thing is, that the surges increase from 5 pm until bedtime.  I don't have the morning ones like many people report, in fact they are non-existent between 4 am and 9am so I get the best sleep then.  I think its almost 3 weeks since reinstatement but I would like to wait 4-5 weeks to see if the surges will calm down even more, if they do, than I will attempt a 10% cut, but only then.

 

Are you still holding at 1.6 ml?

 

BB

[n1gm4]

Hi Baboy and dalsaan, glad too see you feel better. We're in the same boat at 7.5 MG. I think you're right to give yourself sometime and think in weeks or months for the withdrawal. Me too, in the past have sucessfully quit both Paxil and Lexapro on my own. A super fast taper for paxil and Cold turkey Lexapro with mild to moderate withdrawal symptoms. But for a reason I dont know, I cannot quit Mirtazapine this fast and like I said I really give myself the time I need to withdraw slowly without interference with my daily life.

 

Have a nice evening guys.

[dalsaan]

Hi Badboy

 

Glad to hear things are going reasonably well for you. Getting good sleep is great both for how you feel and healing. I am also glad to hear you aren't investing in your symptoms. I get a kind of tightness in my chest and a cough when my stress system is kicking off. I recommend you try out different ways of soothing - breathing, meditation, any others that you can find. I think it's an individual thing

 

You are doing so well in managing this and making good decisions for yourself

 

I Think I will be dropping to 1.5 soon.

 

 

N1gm, keep doing what you're doing. Slow tapering is key as you know

 

 

 

Dalsaan

[n1gm4]

Hi Bayboy,

 

I wonder how you're doing?

[Bayboy]

n1

 

Feeling well enough to attempt my first 10% cut so I'm 3 days into 6.75 mg or .9 ml of the liquid I'm using. I feel well for now but will wait and see. Sleep and cortisol are under control so the other symptoms have lessened, but I've been burnt before so I will wait to see what this cut does. Don't feel bad about doubling your dose, I did the same thing one night and it didn't do a thing for me, just made me feel worse, consistency and patience is what I'm learning.

 

Please continue to post as we are in very similar situations, take care....go Habs!

 

BB

[n1gm4]

Nice to hear you're doing well, keep it up. I will post an update in my thread.

[Jemima]

I would stay away from anything that effects serotonin levels. 5HTP is far too likely to backfire. I tried it for a few days in early withdrawal and it actually did nothing at all for me.

 

Most of us have tried lots of supplements to get over withdrawal symptoms, but there's very little that helps. Because our systems are hyper-sensitive in withdrawal, most supplements have a stimulating effect which makes a person feel even worse. Time is the big, important factor in healing. There's just no way to rush through it.

[Bayboy]

Update,

 

Just to keep my running log going, I decreased 10% down to .9ml liquid (6.75 mg) approx 9 days ago.  Two days ago, I had some broken sleep but not too bad, started to feel cortisol more.  Last night however, EXTREME, cortisol/adrenalin dump at 130 am, no going back to sleep after that, it was brutal, first one since reinstatement, not meditation nor magnesium could touch it, I was like a hot bubbling pot of water.    It finally wore off slightly around 4 am and some light nightmarish sleep followed until 6am.  I am hoping this is just the CNS recognizing the slight decrease and HPA axis adjusting.  If anyone can relate to increased cortisol dumps with any med while tapering slowly, let me know and when it calmed down a little for you.   Otherwise, it has gone relatively smoothly.

 

Thanks again for your continued support.

 

BB

[Bayboy]

lol.  Wow.  The WD rattled brain.  I posted about this very thing after 10 days into reinstatement, that horrible sleep lasted 3-4 days.  I really should read my old posts, they definitely help to establish patterns.  It is so interesting that as we improve, we forget the horrible nights and days we had, probably a good thing. I will post when this has calmed down to refer to later.

 

BB

[mammaP]

lol.  Wow.  The WD rattled brain.  I posted about this very thing after 10 days into reinstatement, that horrible sleep lasted 3-4 days.  I really should read my old posts, they definitely help to establish patterns.  It is so interesting that as we improve, we forget the horrible nights and days we had, probably a good thing. I will post when this has calmed down to refer to later.

 

BB

It's good to look back and see how things change. It's great to have reminders that things will get better.

 

I hope that you feel much better very soon. 

[Bayboy]

Hi All!

 Its been awhile since I last posted but I have returned for advice and/or suggestions.  I have stayed away from posting because the withdrawal was going reasonably well, but I continued to research and follow threads on this site particularly the mirtazapine ones.  I feel for each and everyone of you struggling with these meds and very much want to complete this taper successfully and be a resource if required…..I suppose we all do.  I take great comfort in this site and its ongoing support for people in this awful predicament.  

As far as my taper has gone, I would usually get hit with the odd day of high cortisol or a string of days filled with despair/depression but I could feel it was organic and nothing external was causing it.  It would eventually lift, I would feel better by the 4th week after a drop and down I would go.  I had mostly windows though.

When I got down to 5.25 mg and waited the 4 weeks, I dropped more conservatively to about 4.9 mg (or .65 ml as per my prepared liquid).  I have been working this entire time and have not missed a day and it has been pretty good but………….I decided to work some later shifts to see how my system would handle it.  So while on the new dose of 4.9 mg, I worked to 1 am for a few nights which worked, I still slept.  Than I tried a few shifts until 3 am and I did not sleep at all….zero.  So I quit doing those later shifts and will continue with regular hours until I am better.  But since my little experiment with the later shifts, my body has switched to a 48 hr schedule.  Meaning, I sleep great 1 night and then nothing the next.  On the poor nights, I will drift off at 4 or 5 only to be jolted awake by…..wait for it……CORTISOL and/or ADRENALIN.  1 hour is the max I get on those days.  Go figure.  Anyways, I have been stuck in this rut of every other night for about a week and I want to return to stability.  The later shift experiment was at the same time as the latest drop so I don't know which one is the culprit.  I will no longer be working that late but I am wondering whether I should return to my last stable dose which was 5.25 mg and hold for a longer time or wait it out at 4.9 mg and ride this wave out.  I know Dalsaan has mentioned that insomnia is the sign that CNS is not coping and may be time to consider up dosing.  I am keenly aware that a lot of Benzo healing is still happening as well, so I am in no rush to drop it, I just want to be functional again.

 

Thanks…..and I appreciate any help

 

BB

[mlrp]

I had mostly windows though.

 

 

I'm going to hold onto that thought!!

 

Hello, Bayboy -

 

Just a howdy and well wishes from another Mirt-buddy . I'll be following your progress and wishing you well along the way. I'm planning on making my first Remeron cut soon. It's a "worry," since severe insomnia is part of why I bought the ticket for this stupid ride in the first place. But going forward, I'm going to be as smart and rational as I can, and do my best not to add "fear of insomnia" to nights when I may have trouble sleeping. Easier said than done, perhaps, when one is going on one or two hours sleep, at best, but I'm determined to stay the course.

 

As it is now with Mirt, I get too much sleep (usually) and wake up just as fatigued as when I went to bed, plus the usual cortisol morning. Meh! Who needs that?!

 

I, like you, would love to (hope to, expect to!) be an eventual success story here, and am always wanting to pay back/forward the incredible support I find here.

 

Being such a relative newbie, I feel I don't have much to offer except empathy and peer support. I must say, though, that when I read about your experimenting with late shifts, a little shudder went down my spine. This is just me, but ever since I've been on these meds, I have had to be so careful not to vary my sleep/wake routine very much at all, or I pay for it the next day.

 

I, too, haven't missed a day of work because of this. There have been days when I've really wanted to, but I've been almost afraid to go down that path.

 

I'll leave it to others to suggest what to do about reinstatement vs. riding it out, but personally I have found what I've read here to be true for me: that the CNS in w/d really craves routine and situational stability. Best of luck to you - hoping this wave of yours subsides soon!

[Bayboy]

Thanks Mirp, anyone with suggestions?

[wulfgar]

Hi Bayboy,

 

Nice to hear from you! You have tapered quite wisely! I did up my mirtazapine when sleep got to bad with good results. If you have not been on 4.9 mg long (1-2 weeks) going back to where you were stable sounds like a good idea. Try to stabilize everything as it was before. Avoid any stressors is important. Might try to not staying in bed to long on the night you sleep better. Makes the day longer following day and could improve the next night.

/Wulfgar

[Bayboy]

Thanks Wulfgar...good to hear from you, I up dosed to 5.25 and will hold for awhile and hopefully it corrects itself and I will try again

[wulfgar]

Hi Bayboy,

 

Dropping by to se how you are doing. Hope there is a change for you! It takes a few days so maybe I'm a bit to early asking..

[Bayboy]

Thanks for checking in. Yes it worked. My sleep has normalized again and I feel well, working and weight training, living life......etc. I will hold for awhile and then slowly try again, might try a micro taper similar to the brass monkey slide scale which will take the tapering to 6 weeks instead of 4. Will see how that goes. I'm trying to maintain a pace with as little disruption as possible.

 

Thanks for checking on me....hope you are doing well and maintaining your 5 hours per night at least.

 

BB

[wulfgar]

Great news BB! Be a bit careful though. You might still be a bit extra sensitive so close to a dose change.

[Rhiannon]

Given your recent history of CT and other withdrawal, it might be a good idea to slow down your taper. There's no point in rushing it, no particular advantage. You might try smaller cuts, 10% is a rule of thumb but many people do better with smaller.

[tgirl]

How are you doing baboy?

[Bayboy]

tgirl and other survivors,

 

time for the halfway roundup from my personal experience

 

Actually, I have been doing fine.  I am currently at 3.75 mg and its taken roughly 6 months to get here from a 7.5 mg reinstatement.  This is a liquid taper of course.   I've had some rough moments and a few adrenalin filled sleepless nights. I've had to up dose twice and I've battled all of the usual suspect symptoms at one time or another.  But for the most part, I've resumed a normal life, I work out, play sports, go to work, go out socially, engage with many people etc. Interestingly, as I stabilize on each lower dose, I feel better and better.  Don't forget that I have some massive benzo healing happening as well so that will contribute to this overall feeling of wellness. 

 

But I have learned a lot through this site which is amazing, and other resources that I have studied relentlessly.  Some things that have got me this far in a relatively smooth fashion are as follows:

 

1)  Eliminating and avoiding anything that compromises a fragile CNS ( caffeine, sugar, alcohol, most carbs…actually I went gluten free and love it).  Staying hydrated and eating as healthy as possible.  This is essential, food is a wonderful healer.

 

2)  Heeding the advice of the slow taper….I am a slow learner but now am a firm believer that if you are one that is suffering a terrible withdrawal (don't worry there are lots of us) than you have no choice but to taper slowly.  I've sped up and paid the price.  10% is preached on this site and it is an excellent guide for harm reduction.

 

3)  Keep the body moving….fitness is key whether you are running, taking a slow walk around the block or gardening…the brain loves it and let your CNS be the guide for how much you can do but do something.

 

4)  Trying to stay positive…I try to look at this as my battle, my fight and I intend to win and grow from the experience.  Iatrogenic issues arising from psychotropic meds and withdrawal from them is absolutely one of the worst things any human being has to deal with.  When I beat this however, I will be that much tougher for it and will have a tremendous amount of pride.  Heck, I'm kind of feeling that way already.  A year ago, I was extremely sick and didn't have a clue why.  Now I know and have been doing something about it for awhile.

 

5)  Finally…the medical profession.  I'm not anti-doctor and still rely on them for things but gone is my blind faith in them.  If a doctor doesn't believe in protracted withdrawal or thinks your symptoms are made up or tells you to quickly taper off a med….its simple…get a new one…they are ignorant and refusing to look at the evidence presented to them.  Just get another one, don't waste any more time on it.  I have put stock in this site and other resources and look….one year later, I am so much better.  End of story.

 

I know people are interested in supplements, I only use 2 daily, liquid fish oil with Vit D and a greens supplement.  I find magnesium baths (salts) definitely calm the CNS but I don't take an oral supp because most days, I don't need to.

 

This is only my halfway point and it is far from over but don't ever give up, keep fighting, pay close attention to some of the advice given, do your own homework and you will get better.  

 

Love to all, regards

 

BB

[bubble]

BB, this is so great to hear! It made my day and thank you so much for sharing it. It's a mini-success story. I know you have some way to go still but learning what you have learnt is success already.

 

I totally agree with all your advice and find them very helpful myself. 

 

lots of love back to you,

 

Bubble

[tgirl]

Hello Bay boy thanks for your reply! I am at 7.5 and not doing so well. I am very scared and very tired.

glad your doing well! Keep me posted.

[Altostrata]

Good to hear from you, Bayboy. Please visit often to help others trying to go off mirtazapine.

[Rhiannon]

Good to hear from you and great that you're doing so well! Yay! Good job.

[Adown]

Just readed the whole thread. How are you right now?

[Bayboy]

Hey all,

 

The roller coaster has taken a steep dive.  Looking for some support and/or suggestions from the pros.  Had stabilized nicely on 3 mg and held for awhile, listened to my body and decided to make the next conservative cut.  I micro taper so I cut to 2.9 mg.  The next day, I came down with a nasty cold/ flu for about 1 week.  I still slept but was really sick, the bug was going around the household so probably a legitimate  cold and not withdrawal.  However, i healed up from that and sleep went downhill fast for a few nights, I up dosed back to 3 mg and  last night..zero hours, good times!  Basically, I fall asleep and wake up within 30 minutes.   I'm hoping to stabilize at this dose, I haven't had a zero night in months and have been tapering slowly.  If I can't stabilize, should I increase back to 3.75 mg.  I really don't' want to since I worked so hard to get here.  Otherwise, if I can't stabilize, I may have to jump (this could be my tired, irritable, lack of good judgement mind speaking here so bare with me).

 

take care

 

BB

[ten0275]

Bayboy, hey!

Good to hear from you, sleep-deprived as you are.

I can very much related to this right now. This has been the season of colds and flu for me. The most sickness I have encountered during a single season for a solid decade. You've been riding the fun-fun coaster long enough now to know that when we have contracted, suffer through, and are recovering from a viral or bacterial infection, our central nervous system - already highly primed from withdrawal no matter how stable we are - is strongly affected. It is no time to make any moves really.

The SAME thing happened to me last cut - for real. I dropped the dose, my two year old gave me a big, wet, rhinovirus-heavy kiss (the lovin' that keeps on giving!), and within a couple days my entire system was going BING BING BING! ALERT ALERT ALERT!

Personally, I think you ran into a perfect storm. Your cut coincided with the sickness that made the rounds under your roof and it just sent your system bananas - like true monkey-business!

My advice to you, and what I would do were I in your shoes, would be hold at the 3 that you just up-dosed to. And hold it until you re-calibrate - you'll know when. If I am getting the gist of the time-frame correct, you'd be about 2 weeks out from that cut to 2.9? That 2 to 3 weeks zone can be a hot-spot anyhow. At least it is for me.

You've made a ton of progress. A TON! I'd say don't let the recent spate of insomnia trip your head-space out. Don't get yourself lined-up to believe you're going to now be insomnia-man for the next 5 months. You are still in the infancy of the immediate aftermath of both a cut and a passing illness. My guess is this is going to level out for you quickly and when it does, then think about returning to that 2.9. You are doing it the right way.

 

So.... Be bold in the wake of that cold and just hold!

Hang in there.

Dave

[dalsaan]

Hey BB

 

Sorry things have taken a dive. Whatever you do don't jump. Your nervous system can't take it

 

Although no sleep is devastating I would give it a couple more days before up dosing. I would Aldo hold here for a while. A micro taper can catch up with you

 

Did you take any other medications for the cold? Could they have upset your system?

 

Dalsaan