SunshininDay Hello! 13 years on ADs and trying to quit. Should I taper now?

[SunshininDay]

Thank you, again, for your advice, Rhi.  I am beginning to understand how complex the situation it.  I did have negative affects yesterday especially at night.  Made me understand that I am truly not stable yet.  After carefully reading your posts, and many of the other posts on this board, I am going to follow your advice and give it a harm-reduction approach.  I took 200mg again today.  I think I was just anxious because I didn't have a plan going forward.  I am definitely going to give it a few more months, if not more, to try and allow myself to stabilize, before tapering.  Until then, I will continue to study the posts on this site and learn as much as I can.  I will also begin a more detailed record of my scenario and symptoms.  Maybe I will start a blog on blogger… 

 

Thanks, again.  It is very reassuring to know that I'm not alone, and that people have made it through this.

[SunshininDay]

*NOTE* - I switched my username to SunshininDay because my other username was the same as the ones I use on other websites.  I apologize for any confusion.

[Skyler]

*NOTE* - I switched my username to SunshininDay because my other username was the same as the ones I use on other websites.  I apologize for any confusion.

I did the exact same thing, changed my name because I had previously used same on another forum. Then I further changed it from Schuyler to Skyler. Alto was about ready to box my ears, but noone could spell Schuyler.. which is Skyler in Dutch!

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

I am sure one of the mods will be able to edit your topic name too when they see it. That could cause a bit of confusion. It still shows your original name.

[Altostrata]

SD, what is your daily symptom pattern? Please keep notes on paper, including your dosage and when you take your drugs.

[SunshininDay]

Will do.  Should I post back in this thread or another?  Also, is there a list of symptoms anywhere?  It would be easier to pick from a list than come up with them on my own.

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

Your thread is where you post updates, ask and answer questions and communicate with other members. Only one topic per person in the intro forum.

 

Some members keep a diary and rate their symptoms daily which is important in being able to see trends in emotional and physical symptoms and their duration during tapering. Your symptoms are particular to you, you won't be matching yourself on a list. The more you read the individual records here the more you will learn. You might look at Hudgen's thread for example.

[Altostrata]

See http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/604-important-topics-about-symptoms-including-sleep-problems/

[SunshininDay]

Thank you so much for your patience, your feedback, and pointing me in the right direction.

 

Can I edit my original post if I made errors or want to add something to my history?  Or should I make another comment?

[Altostrata]

You have an hour to edit a post. Otherwise, you'll have to make a new post.

[btdt]

Given your history there is no way I can predict what's going to happen; you've been on and off so many different drugs, with multiple CTs and changes over the years. It's actually impossible to predict 100% what's going to happen even in a simple uncomplicated case (one med only, for a relatively short time) but it's a bit more consistent in those cases. But you are what I consider an extremely complex case (early onset before the brain was mature, long history on drugs, multiple changes of meds, and history of multiple CTs over many years).

 

So I can't tell you what will or will not happen with the Zoloft. If you're not having signs of a bad reaction to it yet, I'd be cautiously optimistic that it will continue to "work" (it's actually not doing much at this point other than preventing what would happen if you tried to quit it).

 

It's not as simple as "I took Effexor and then out of the blue it went all crazy on me." You had been on and off Effexor before that, it looks like a couple of times, and on and off multiple other meds, and had CTs, quite a challenging history already. It's hard to say what happened; I don't think it's as simple as "everything was fine in my brain and body and then suddenly the Effexor made it all go wrong." 

 

I generally find in cases like yours the safest path is to go very slow and minimize change. People seem to be able to tolerate a certain amount of this sort of neurochemical chaos early on, but as Alto says, our CNS is not made of rubber, and it seems to me that once people run out of "slack" things just seem to become more and more fragile and complicated.

 

All I can say is that from the hundreds of people I've seen go through this stuff, I think your best bet is to give it at the very least a few more months to make sure you've had time to recover from the Klonopin withdrawal (again, that was a very high dose in a very short time, and I for one would not consider another taper so soon, without a very compelling reason). During that time you can learn how to make the liquid or get hold of a compounded formula; I think very small reductions are going to be crucial for you, given your history, and probably your only hope for tapering successfully and staying off meds.

 

You have to grow a new brain. Unfortunately our brains have never before in evolution encountered anything like what these drugs do to them, so the healing process is not efficient and probably imperfect at best. Please respect the seriousness of your complicated situation and be cautious and thoughtful in your approach.

"I took Effexor and then out of the blue it went all crazy on me."

 

I have talked to a lot of people in the past 6 years part of the time on an effexor specific site and I have seen people who took only effexor hit tolerance having a lot of the very symptoms. 

Just saying it can happen... tolerance can happen. 

I know your saying that is not the entire story I get that too but in virgin brains that took no other drug it has happened. 

[SunshininDay]

That is good to know, btdt.  I can't believe that can happen on that drug.  I've never had anything like that happen on any other AD.  I just pray that I can fully stabilize on the Zoloft so that I can do a slow and safe taper while maintaining a good quality of life… (gotta get to that good quality of life, first) 

[btdt]

 

Given your history there is no way I can predict what's going to happen; you've been on and off so many different drugs, with multiple CTs and changes over the years. It's actually impossible to predict 100% what's going to happen even in a simple uncomplicated case (one med only, for a relatively short time) but it's a bit more consistent in those cases. But you are what I consider an extremely complex case (early onset before the brain was mature, long history on drugs, multiple changes of meds, and history of multiple CTs over many years).

 

So I can't tell you what will or will not happen with the Zoloft. If you're not having signs of a bad reaction to it yet, I'd be cautiously optimistic that it will continue to "work" (it's actually not doing much at this point other than preventing what would happen if you tried to quit it).

 

It's not as simple as "I took Effexor and then out of the blue it went all crazy on me." You had been on and off Effexor before that, it looks like a couple of times, and on and off multiple other meds, and had CTs, quite a challenging history already. It's hard to say what happened; I don't think it's as simple as "everything was fine in my brain and body and then suddenly the Effexor made it all go wrong." 

 

I generally find in cases like yours the safest path is to go very slow and minimize change. People seem to be able to tolerate a certain amount of this sort of neurochemical chaos early on, but as Alto says, our CNS is not made of rubber, and it seems to me that once people run out of "slack" things just seem to become more and more fragile and complicated.

 

All I can say is that from the hundreds of people I've seen go through this stuff, I think your best bet is to give it at the very least a few more months to make sure you've had time to recover from the Klonopin withdrawal (again, that was a very high dose in a very short time, and I for one would not consider another taper so soon, without a very compelling reason). During that time you can learn how to make the liquid or get hold of a compounded formula; I think very small reductions are going to be crucial for you, given your history, and probably your only hope for tapering successfully and staying off meds.

 

You have to grow a new brain. Unfortunately our brains have never before in evolution encountered anything like what these drugs do to them, so the healing process is not efficient and probably imperfect at best. Please respect the seriousness of your complicated situation and be cautious and thoughtful in your approach.

"I took Effexor and then out of the blue it went all crazy on me."

 

I have talked to a lot of people in the past 6 years part of the time on an effexor specific site and I have seen people who took only effexor hit tolerance having a lot of the very symptoms. 

Just saying it can happen... tolerance can happen. 

I know your saying that is not the entire story I get that too but in virgin brains that took no other drug it has happened. 

 

All the other drugs you were on from what I can discern from you postings here were for a shorter time period.  I think it is the fact that you were on Effexor a  long time that would make this drug the one that you got tolerant to. I suspect it can happen with any antidepressant.  We can't know anything for sure because proper study of tolerance along with withdrawal ... and may other post marketing issues with these drugs are not done. 

This type of research does not increase sales of a drug or help it stay on the market.  Research is expensive to do and most of the research on drugs is actually done by those who make the drug... there is little incentive in the system the way it works now.  

I do think that the other drugs played a part possibly how big a part we can't know... with the bits of study we are forced to work with.  A lot of what we try to do is understand this process based on the reports of many other people. I know I have seen tolerance often from different drugs... usually it takes a long time to start up.  For me by the time I got to Effexor I had been on other drugs and I know my particular system overcame the effects of Effexor in 2 years. I am sure we will all be a bit different as our bodies are different. 

I am sure too there are articles on here about tolerance other sites too if you want to look it up.  You will find it under tolerance and pooped out. 

 

You said you would feel better if you could understand what went on with the Effexor crash I am hoping it helps you feel better to see there are reasons not particular to you that cause these type of drugs to poop out other people have had this happen too. I hope it helps you. 

peace

[Rhiannon]

 

Given your history there is no way I can predict what's going to happen; you've been on and off so many different drugs, with multiple CTs and changes over the years. It's actually impossible to predict 100% what's going to happen even in a simple uncomplicated case (one med only, for a relatively short time) but it's a bit more consistent in those cases. But you are what I consider an extremely complex case (early onset before the brain was mature, long history on drugs, multiple changes of meds, and history of multiple CTs over many years).

 

So I can't tell you what will or will not happen with the Zoloft. If you're not having signs of a bad reaction to it yet, I'd be cautiously optimistic that it will continue to "work" (it's actually not doing much at this point other than preventing what would happen if you tried to quit it).

 

It's not as simple as "I took Effexor and then out of the blue it went all crazy on me." You had been on and off Effexor before that, it looks like a couple of times, and on and off multiple other meds, and had CTs, quite a challenging history already. It's hard to say what happened; I don't think it's as simple as "everything was fine in my brain and body and then suddenly the Effexor made it all go wrong." 

 

I generally find in cases like yours the safest path is to go very slow and minimize change. People seem to be able to tolerate a certain amount of this sort of neurochemical chaos early on, but as Alto says, our CNS is not made of rubber, and it seems to me that once people run out of "slack" things just seem to become more and more fragile and complicated.

 

All I can say is that from the hundreds of people I've seen go through this stuff, I think your best bet is to give it at the very least a few more months to make sure you've had time to recover from the Klonopin withdrawal (again, that was a very high dose in a very short time, and I for one would not consider another taper so soon, without a very compelling reason). During that time you can learn how to make the liquid or get hold of a compounded formula; I think very small reductions are going to be crucial for you, given your history, and probably your only hope for tapering successfully and staying off meds.

 

You have to grow a new brain. Unfortunately our brains have never before in evolution encountered anything like what these drugs do to them, so the healing process is not efficient and probably imperfect at best. Please respect the seriousness of your complicated situation and be cautious and thoughtful in your approach.

"I took Effexor and then out of the blue it went all crazy on me."

 

I have talked to a lot of people in the past 6 years part of the time on an effexor specific site and I have seen people who took only effexor hit tolerance having a lot of the very symptoms. 

Just saying it can happen... tolerance can happen. 

I know your saying that is not the entire story I get that too but in virgin brains that took no other drug it has happened. 

 

 

I'm not saying it can't happen. I'm saying don't assume it's going to happen with Zoloft, which is what Sunshinin is afraid of and which is making him want to taper it fast, which may or may not be the best choice in his situation, and I want him to consider things carefully and not just react out of fear and possibly worsen his situation.

 

Heaven knows almost anything can happen with these drugs; we just have to do our best decision making based on as much information as we can put together, and then listen carefully to our bodies and make only small, careful, controlled and controllable changes. (Usually. Unless there's a toxicity situation.)

 

I understand, you were harmed by Effexor tolerance, and it sounds like maybe you were told your perception of that was wrong and that was a harsh experience for you. I don't question your experience with Effexor at all. It's quite interesting to me, and I'm learning from it.

 

It seems like people have had this "tolerance" or "poop-out" experience with a number of different drugs. Maybe that's something we should discuss in a different thread. (Actually there probably already is one somewhere...)

[btdt]

I'm sorry.  I'm a male :-(  My wife is pregnant.  I should mention that when I started the Klonopin taper I was FAR worse than this.  I had just come off a terrible experience having a bad reaction to Effexor, then having a bad reaction coming off Effexor and trouble getting on Zoloft.  It was pretty much awful the entire time.  

 

I'm worried about having a bad reaction from the zoloft like I did with the effexor.  I can't go through that again.

If it was indeed tolerance to Effexor that was your problem I will tell you it generally takes a couple years to become tolerant to an ssri snri... if you get stable and taper off with no further need of meds you will not have the same tolerance as 

you will be changing dose..

and tapering off

hopefully all will go well with the help of the people here who have tapered I have not done a successful taper so I will leave you to the expert hands of those who have. 

[SunshininDay]

Hello,

 

I haven't written since April.  I wanted to update with how I am doing.  I am still holding strong and stabilizing on 200mg.

 

My son was born on May 8.  He is the light of my life and I love him so much.  I am glad I was able to get off the benzos and get through the Effexor withdrawal a little better so that I could cry at his birth.  It was a VERY difficult few days, as the lack of sleep really wreaks havoc on my neuro-system.

 

Over the past few months, I have made improvements.  While I still have anxiety, anhedonia, and minor depression, the "out-of-control" panic attacks have gone away.  My sensitivity to caffiene, sugar, and other stimulant foods has gotten more under control, to where I can drink tea without going into a "panic state."  I am having tiny little windows every once in a while, where I feel like the cloud lifts just a bit.  I know I have a LONG way to go... but I am determined to fight to the end.  I am just completing an internship that I would NOT have been able to do six months ago.  I am doing better at going to bed at a decent time and waking up early.

 

My major symptoms that still bother me are the anhedonia (not ALL the time... but most of the time), anxiety (although not to the point of extreme panic), very poor concentration, racing thoughts from time to time, difficult to focus, general lack of clarity. 

 

Here is my MAJOR concern:  When do I start tapering from Zoloft?  I don't feel like I am stable enough yet to be able to handle starting another taper, but I am worried that I won't ever be 'stable enough.'  I am also worried about what my psychiatrists says: that it is the Zoloft that is making me feel better.  What if I start tapering off the Zoloft and feel worse?  I wish I had a more understanding psychiatrist but I don't know how to find one. 

 

I am better than I was before... but have a long way to go.  Any advice is appreciated.  Thank you.

[bubble]

hello Sunshinin and thank you for the update.

 

It's great to read things have improved so much for you and congratulations on your son

 

Given that you are still not feeling stable, if I were you, I wouldn't think about tapering yet. From what I could see going back through your thread you've been through a lot with these meds. It's true we will never feel 100 % stable but you will feel when is the time to taper just as clearly as you now feel it is not. Just listen to that feeling and give yourself as much time as you need.

 

Unfortunately the list of psychiatrists who know the true nature of these drugs is very short. but when you start taper (not any time soon) it will be best to reduce very, very slowly especially initially so that you stay in control. With small and slow changes we don't have to fear.

 

I'd say give your CNS some more rest and enjoy your son.

 

Best,

bubble

[SunshininDay]

Thank you for your reply.  When I finally do decide to taper, I will definitely use the 10% reduction method described here in this forum.  I believe that I will heal and get better.  I am going to do my best to eat healthy, exercise, and try to do mind-exercises to strengthen my brain. 

 

I think this is a tough time because I have a better sense of reality, but I know that I am not "better."  "Better" for me doesn't necessarily mean 100% healed, it just means I am able to get through a day without feeling detatched and anxious, and in the moment with the ability to feel motivation, joy, etc.

 

My current "plan" is to wait it out until the new year at least before I begin tapering, to give myself more time to stabilize.  If I am not ready, I won't taper, don't worry.  But I need to have something to shoot for. 

 

Thank you for your advice.

[bubble]

I understand

 

It seems you have really learnt a lot here: yes, we are human so we need t have a plan but here we have to recognise that our CNS is really in charge. Maybe it will give you all clear even before the New Year, you never now

 

Some people (myself included) have to go even slower than 10 % but we'll cross that bridge when we get there.

[Rhiannon]

Everything Bubble said. It's very encouraging that you've had some improvement already. That will continue, albeit in an up and down kind of way. You only finished your Klonopin taper in November, and I've seen people need a year to recover just from a benzo taper, let alone all the stuff with the ADs that your CNS has been through the wringer with. Just give it time.

 

And as far as needing the drugs, I know for me, I thought I was going to have to be on ADs for life because every time I tried to come off them I became ill. But I've had no problems at all (other than occasional withdrawal symptoms) off the Celexa and in fact I'm practically like a religious convert or something if you get me talking about how much better I feel now that I'm down to such a small dose. It's wonderful. 

 

I think this "you need the drug to feel better" is because so many people come off too fast, get into trouble with withdrawal symptoms, and the doctors interpret that as a "relapse." I think if you go down slowly enough that your brain can heal and remodel itself as you go, you'll be fine. You may need to go more slowly than 10%, especially at lower doses, but your body will tell you.

 

Enjoy the little one and enjoy having your life back, you're going to feel better and better, although it may take some time.

[SunshininDay]

UPDATE: 

 

I have been doing a bit better.  Things are definitely more stable, but that doesn't mean I feel good.  The anhedonia is worse and I feel like a 'zombie' most of the time.  I am not having any major panic issues where the system goes haywire.  I feel that the high level of Zoloft I am at is making me feel drugged.  I would like to start tapering soon and believe I am at a point where I can handle it. 

 

My major annoyance is the inability to get excited about things and the general feeling that there is a cloud hanging over me.  I am thinking about starting my Zoloft taper soon.  

[SunshininDay]

I wish I had a doctor nearby that could help me through this process.

[mammaP]

Hi Sunshinin, glad you are feeling better and feel ready to start your taper. You can get zoloft in

a liquid which is easier for tapering when you get to the lower doses. 

 

Sadly most of us don't have a doctor that knows very much about tapering or withdrawal but I hope yours is one 

who will support you and let you do it the right way. Be firm but polite about how you want to taper. 

You have probably read everything already but go over it again before you start, and read the 3 KIS at the top

of the introductions page. Keep it stable Keep it Slow Keep it simple. 

 

(I always think of that thread as 3 Kisses it is so good! )  

[SunshininDay]

Thanks!  Any tips on how to find a doctor with withdrawal knowledge?

[crazykatie]

Hey Sunshine,

 

So good to hear you have some relief. I wondered the same thing about finding a doc. What I was told her was that I'm in control. I have been convinced by my shrink that I would never get to go off my meds n he instilled the fear of God in me.

Finally I grew tired of him just prescribing more n more. I also wanted to have feelings again. I went off my invega cold turkey ten weeks ago. It's been rough. Taper!!!

I got a new shrink n told him before even letting him talk that my goal is to be med free. That if he wasn't willing to support this, then there was no point in a follow up. I went the second time in the middle of the extreme panic, insomnia, irritability. He said I had to take seroquel. I took it one night bc I had to sleep. I slept my whole weekend away n felt hung over in a brain fog. I never took it again.

My third visit to the shrink I very cool n collected that I refuse to take the seroquel. If he was just gonna prescribe me meds,I would find another doc. You have to stand up to them!!

[mammaP]

Take a look through this thread and see if there are any doctors near you on the list. 

You need to read it right through because it has been updated along the way. 

[Altostrata]

The list in the first post of http://tinyurl.com/7cp8l8v is updated every time a doctor is added. They are all in that first post. Follow the links next to a doctor's name for more detail.

[SunshininDay]

UPDATE: I started my Zoloft taper on January 9, 2015.  For the sake of making it easier through breaking tablets (smallest tablet is 25mg and can be split in 2), I am following a schedule a bit different (slower) than the 10% taper.  Please let me know if anyone has done this before, and if you think it's okay to go this route.
The 10% taper method dosage is first, followed by my dosage in parenthesis:

Jan 9 - 180mg (187.5mg)

Feb 9 - 162mg (175mg)

Mar 9 - 145.8mg (162.5mg)

Apr 9 - 131.22mg (150mg)

May 9 - 118.10mg (137.5mg)

Jun 9 - 106.29mg (125mg)

Jul 9 - 95.66mg (112.5mg)

Aug 9 - 86.09mg (100mg)

Sep 9 - 77.48mg (90mg start going by 10%)

Oct 9 - 69.74mg (81mg)

Nov 9 - 62.76mg (72.9mg)

Dec 9 - 56.49mg (65.61mg)

etc...

[Rhiannon]

Be careful about trying to follow a preplanned calendar schedule, people get in trouble with that. It can give you sort of a rule of thumb idea about things, but our brains and nervous systems and bodies don't seem to have gotten the "you must heal at exactly the pace I plan for you" memo.

 

Your body is the only real expert and guru on how to pace your taper. Start slow, keep a daily journal ranking your symptoms on a scale of 1 to 5, and keep notes about any additional stressors, diet changes, etc. Watch the journal and pay attention to your body. You will see how the symptoms come on, how they unfold, and how they resolve; what the patterns are, what to watch for; and at what point it's safe for you to make another cut.

 

Also, it's helpful to do an occasional longer hold. I suspect that the healing processes don't all happen at exactly the same pace, and sometimes we can get ahead of them, so it's helpful to occasionally just stop tapering for a while and let the healing catch up.

 

But at higher doses people can usually be a bit more aggressive with their tapers, and your schedule looks okay for starters. Just don't get caught in the "I must cut now because my schedule says so even though I'm not feeling so great" trap. Listen to your body, it's the only real authority.

[SunshininDay]

Thank you for the advice.  Is there a symptom sheet or journal guide of any sort to guide me in my symptom ranking?