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Limbic Kindling -- Hardwiring the brain for hypersensitivity

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GiaK

This is right on: Limbic Kindling -- Hardwiring the brain for hypersensitivity
expertpractitioner_com/cmt_media/LimibicKindling.pdf

 

 

Edit: expertpractitioner site is defunct; new links to

 

PDF on the site of Niki Gratrix (author): Limbic Kindling.pdf

 

Republished text on Healthrising [dot] org: Limbic Kindling

Edited by scallywag
updated links to content

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Altostrata

Very interesting. From the article:
 

It’s one of the most exciting concepts in neuroscience you’ve never heard of. And it’s becoming a key model being examined as a possible theoretical basis for Multiple Chemical Sensitivity (MCS) and Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD). Recently, a leading researcher in CFS/ME, Dr Leonard Jason, has argued it provides a comprehensive model to explain CFS as well
....
Limbic  kindling  is  a  condition  where  either   repeated  neurological  exposure  to   initially  chronic  sub-­threshold  stimulus,  or  a  short-­term  high  intensity  stimulus  (eg   brain  trauma),  can  eventually  lead  to  persistent   hypersensitivity  to  the  stimulus.  

Kindling  was  originally  discovered  in  1967   by  Graham  Goddard,  who  was  studying   the  effects  of  electrical  stimulation  of  the   amygdaloid  complex  in  the  brain  in  learning   in  rats.(1)  He  found  that  after  long-­term,  low   intensity  intermittent  stimulation  from  electric   shocks  to  their  brains,  the  rats  began  to  have  spontaneous,  epileptic-­like  seizures  –  even   when  no  stimulation  was  given.  Goddard  also   found  he  could  create  similar  reactions  using   chemical  stimulation.

In  1970,  Gellhorn  suggested  that   under  prolonged  stimulation  of  the  limbic-­ hypothalamic-­pituitary  axis,  a  lowered   threshold  for  activation  could  occur.(2)  Girdano   et  al  in  1990  proposed  that  the  excessive   arousal  could  lead  to  an  increase  in  dendrites   of  the  limbic  system,  which  can  further   increase  limbic  stimulation  and  hypersensitivity   to  stimuli.(3)

Ashok Gupta was the first to propose a similar  theory  as  the  basis  for  CFS/ME  in   2002.(4)  (A  diagram  from  his  paper  is  below).   Based  on  the  work  of  Le  Doux  in  the  ‘90s  (5),   Gupta  suggested  that  an  infectious,  chemical   or  psychological  stressor  could  create  a  “cell   assembly”  within  the  unconscious  amygdala   and  that  these  cell  populations  are  particularly   resistant  to  extinction.  As  with  Goddard  and   Gellhorn,  this  again  implied  that  people  could   become  “hard-­wired”  to  respond  more  easily to stimuli and in turn find it more difficult to suppress the chronic stress or "fight or flight" response  established  by  Selye’s  classic   model  of  stress.(3-­5)

Where  limbic  kindling  takes  our   understanding  of  stress  to  new  levels  is  the   idea  that  this  kindling  leads  to  “hard-­wiring”   in  the  brain  for  an  unhealthy  response   to  stress.  This  was  boosted  by  a  2002   paper  in  the  British  Journal  of  Psychiatry,   where  a  systemic  review  of  brain  images   of  patients  with  PTSD  found  “increased   activation  of  the  amygdala  after  symptom   provocation”.(6)

In  2009,  Dr  Leonard  Jason  and   colleagues  suggested  that  chronic  long-­ term  hyperarousal  of  the  central  nervous   system  –  from  this  “kindling”  –  leads  to   chronic  sympathetic  nervous  system   arousal....

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GiaK

I posted the above PDF on Beyond Meds today...

 

these are my comments from that post:

 

This is a very interesting article. It’s in keeping with my posts on how the autonomic nervous system is impacted in psychiatric drug withdrawal and how that is similar in many different chronic illnesses. This piece goes into a deeper understanding of these issues.
 

The author concludes that healing from these illnesses requires tending to the whole body/mind/spirit complex. This has become very clear to me as I continue to heal.
 

Frankly it’s also clear to me that understanding a whole host of chronic illnesses from this perspective could change the face of medicine. Right now western medicine tends to treat these illnesses in ways that exacerbate them in the long run because they are only treating symptoms without an understanding of underlying issues.  Most MDs are completely clueless about all the factors mentioned in this article and are even dangerous for many of us. See:  We can know more about our bodies than our MDs do…trust that, develop it
 

This is the greatest and most profound lesson this illness has taught me. Having and healing from these illnesses offer a penetrating look into the nature of humans as holistic beings that exist as part of the world and greater universe.
 

So to repeat my mantra meme, Everything Matters. This idea also got extended into my memoir on Mad in AmericaMy healing has continued greatly since the writing of that article. See: I Actually Woke up This Morning Thinking I’d Arrived, I’m Well . . .

 

see post here: http://wp.me/p5nnb-aLI

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mm100

thanks for this Gia....

 

Alto, Gia, do you think that Guptas limbic reprogramming might be useful in this...and do you belive that the kindling effect is indeed caused by this as apposed to dmage ro receptores etc? 

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GiaK

it's not all or nothing...limbic kindling is a response to all manner of insults...including the possibility of damage to receptors etc...

 

and yes...it's likely Gupta could help a good number of people with psych drug withdrawal issues...I wasn't drawn to his work all that much...but Rhi has found it helpful...if he's interesting to you and you're drawn to it, I would say it's worth checking out...he clearly knows what he is talking about...there are simply as many ways to approach this as there are human beings...

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btdt

thanks for this Gia....

 

Alto, Gia, do you think that Guptas limbic reprogramming might be useful in this...and do you belive that the kindling effect is indeed caused by this as apposed to dmage ro receptores etc? 

Please tell me where you found a reference to Gupta's reprogramming?  

I don't see it. 

Is not kindling an expression of damaged? That is not for you specifically mm100 but for others here who may be able to steer me straight. 

 

kindling 

(in neurology) a process by which a seizure or other brain event is both initiated and its recurrence made more likely.

 

the fact that kindling has started could also damage things more as it is expressed I am assuming... 

 

If there is indeed a program in place set up by Gupta for overcoming this system fault however it came to be... please direct me to it. 

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btdt

I am being lazy in a way I don't want to know how they know it exists I already know it exists I want to know what they think there is to do about it that is new... if there is anything new.  

It is not as much laziness always as I don't have the concentration level when on steroids to read all the links.  

I am asking to be spoon fed... I know. 

I am asking for grace. 

Thank you if there is any and it is ok if there is not. 

peace to you all.

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GiaK

Gupta is one program... http://www.guptaprogramme.com/

 

this is another one: Dynamic Neural Retraining System™ http://www.dnrsystem.com/

 

here is a pretty interesting article by someone who has tried both.

 

 

Limbic System Retraining

http://www.holistichelp.net/limbic-system-retraining.html

 

I have put together my own protocol...it's what I write about every day on Beyond Meds...but these are systematic programs that are probably helpful to a lot of people.

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GiaK

it's okay btdt...these are programs which do just that..spoon feed...and I think some times we all need that. 

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Rhiannon

Yep, I use the Gupta materials, although I don't really work it as focused as you're supposed to. It's helped me with my sensitivity to fragrances/perfumes--not gone completely, but they cause me less trouble than they used to. I like his stuff.

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btdt

Thank you I will take a look.  

I have tried a lot over the years and don't recall the names of things I hope this is something new and effective 

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GiaK

all these programs cost money...people do work at making this all available....that said it either calls to folks or it doesn't. 

 

the last one I posted the neurosculpting is the least expensive and the most flexible...

 

I have the DNR and the Neurosculpting... I watched a lot of Gupta videos that were available on youtube. 

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btdt

thanks I agree that the  best way to heal is to calm the body down as deep relaxation has helped me I think the body just heals better in this state no matter what... 

I watched this one

 

While I think he is right to a point I just don't think he is right int the instance of withdrawal... this one is about mcs. ... please keep in mind I have been studied and poked and therapied to death for years and I have studied with every dx... I have studied them all lol this is not new to withdrawal... 

he says it is not helpful to think of this as having another cause like damage to the bbb... I tend to think it is ...these drugs cross the blood brain barrier... I know you all know this.  

 

I have had other things like pavlov's dogs... but what I have had since withdrawal is not that. 

This I took a look at as a possiblity 

"severe sympathetic response shuts down detoxification systems" something to look at further... and found it is basically Dysautonomia found in withdrawal from ssri which are sometimes used to treat it. 

I would hope as the Dysautonomia eases as others have healed right?  I will watch the rest tho he does bore me 

The libmic system is likely changed in us especially if we went cold turkey.

I agree repeating relaxation helps healing. 

Here he is speaking to one thing... mcs.. I have also vitamin and drug and fibro so they say... related likely all related to one thing... starting prozac and continued drug use... I guess since I will never pay him as I have no money it is long gone.. 

I will never know if his theories work... but some of them are what we have come to on our own... so far as I can gather from one video for free... I will watch more and if there is anything more worth saying I will be back :) not short on words or opinions not me ..

Thank you for this tho I am always interested and have just started to look replied too soon no doubt but If I don't do it now I will forget what I watched.  

so bit of this and that.. here... may come back later and say I was wrong and this is brilliant...we will see. 

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btdt

Gupta is one program... http://www.guptaprogramme.com/

 

this is another one: Dynamic Neural Retraining System™ http://www.dnrsystem.com/

 

here is a pretty interesting article by someone who has tried both.

 

 

Limbic System Retraining

http://www.holistichelp.net/limbic-system-retraining.html

 

I have put together my own protocol...it's what I write about every day on Beyond Meds...but these are systematic programs that are probably helpful to a lot of people.

Next I looked at holistic help for a bit of variety. 

I liked this bit.

"The autonomic nervous system regulates those aspects of the body that occur automatically such as circulation, breathing, heart rate, digestion and blood pressure. It is also known as the involuntary nervous system and it is comprised of two parts known as the parasympathetic nervous system and the sympathetic nervous system.

In our brain we have toxin receptors, called xenosensors. Toxins of all kinds; pesticides, cologne, laundry soap, bacteria, lyme, yeast, heavy metals, etc. are able to cross the blood brain barrier, which then triggers these receptors. These receptors have one of two roles. One, they trigger the locus ceruleus in the brain stem that a threat exists (the toxin) and the locus ceruleus releases norepinephrine to ignite the fight/flight system otherwise known as the sympathetic nervous system. Norepinephrine is an excitatory neurotransmitter and although crucial for survival, it is toxic to the brain in excess.

Once norepinephrine is released, then it stimulates the amygdala into action, which triggers emotions like fear, anxiety or anger, and the hypothalamus which triggers the pituitary to release ACTH to stimulate the adrenal glands to release cortisol and then preganglion sympathetic neurons stimulate the adrenal medulla to release epinephrine.

It was once thought that the hypothalamus was what set off the stress response system, then later it was believed that it was the amygdala. What we know now is that it is neither one of them. It is the locus ceruleus that sets off the stress response system. The amygdala fires off in response to messages from the locus ceruleus via norepinephrine."

 

Norepinephrine is I have read much the same as epinephrine which I have been sensitive to and stopped having at the dentist since I quit Effexor also is in Effexor. Since I have had reactions to lidocaine just one but it was serious .. on testing I have not allery to lidocaine tho a pin prick test caused a pain in my head that was it. I particularly like this word "xenosensors." though I may forget it I like it. 

 

Like this too.

"When the sympathetic nervous system is dominant, ie we are in fight or flight mode, digestion and circulation are impaired, pupils dilate, blood pressure and heart rate rise, cognitive abilities and memory may be impaired, we are hyper alert and given a boost of energy, blood sugar rises, hormones are disrupted, sleep and the detoxification system are impaired, there's a decline in immune function, neurotransmitters are used up, all of our senses, (particularly our sense of smell, taste and sound) are heightened and there are high levels of fear and anxiety."

Sounds like what tolerance was like for me. 

 

Here is the answer for others that may want to know about this:

"This is where both the Dynamic Neural Retraining SystemTM and the Amygdala RetrainingTM programs enter the picture. Both of these programs target the autonomic nervous system. They each employ a variety of techniques that essentially attempt to turn off the sympathetic nervous system and restore the body to the parasympathetic state. It's a little more complex, than that, but that is the basic premise of both of these approaches in a nutshell."  I am happy it is coming soon. 

 

Like this too as reasons I don't see long term use of toxic drug or liver damage from a drug ...

"The limbic system can become impaired by a one-time event to a very big stressor or chemical like a car accident, the loss of a relationship, death of a loved one, being a victim of violence, spending the day in a mold infested building or a room with a plug-in air freshener, being in the presence of a pesticide or herbicide application or the accumulation of many low-level stressors or toxins that take place over time. Thus, explaining why some people seem to develop these conditions overnight, while for others it comes on gradually."

 

"Now, considering the fact that hundreds, and maybe thousands of people with chemical sensitivities, chronic fatigue, etc., are making full recoveries or improving significantly using these programs, this indeed does seem to be true. As someone who has experienced it to some degree in my own life, I am a firm believer. I have come to believe that MCS, CFS- Adrenal Fatigue, EHS etc., are primarilyautonomic nervous system disorders.

I think that is what Alto calls withdrawal. no? People are healing from withdrawal in time... maybe it would be faster with this I wonder. 

 

Completely agree with this:

" But the important point you want to understand is that although MCS, CFS, EHS, etc., originate in the brain, this does not mean they are psychological conditions. They are not. They are physiological. Essentially, we are talking about brain injury caused by chemicals or stressors."

 

Oh ok I was a bit let down by this as I was hoping there would be a prize at the bottom of the cracker jacks but apparently people heal many ways and this is one of many... I was hoping for more a prize. 

 

"However, we also know that many other people have healed from these conditions with other means of healing. So the old saying "there's more than one way to skin a cat" applies here. There are many, many possible ways that one may be able to move the brain out of the sympathetic fight or flight state and into the healing and regenerative parasympathetic state, besides rewiring the brain. Some people have achieved it with nutritional supplements, hormone balancing, others with energy medicine, and yet others with saunas, or many others.

Limbic system retraining is just one more tool we can put in our toolbox for the road to recovery. There is no reason for people to feel threatened by this approach. It really is not any different than anything else we have done. It just comes at the problem from a different angle. No matter which approach for healing that you use, the end goal is the same - restore normalcy to the autonomic nervous system.

You should also be aware that other big thinkers in the field of MCS, like Dr. Claudia Miller and Dr. Iris Bell believe that the limbic system may be involved in MCS, CFS, etc. So this concept is not unheard of."

 

I still like this part 

When you are under stress of any kind, be it toxic stress or emotional stress, neurotransmitters in the frontal lobes of the brain like dopamine, serotonin, GABA, endorphins/enkephalins, endocannabinoids histamine are released to modulate the stress response system. Each of these neurotransmitters oppose norepinephrine and therefore turn off the fight or flight system. If there are not adequate neurotransmitters in the brain, then the fight or flight system will not be modulated properly. The sympathetic nervous system will remain dominant.

Additionally, toxins of all kinds, (pesticides, heavy metals, lyme, bacteria, yeast, sugar, junk food, food additives, air pollution, etc), inhibit the frontal lobes of the brain and prevent adequate neurotransmitter production and function. Since these toxins can cross the blood brain barrier they can land on neurotransmitter and hormone receptors and prevent them from functioning properly. In some cases, they block function, and in other cases, they mimic the natural hormone or neurotransmitter and some do both.

Furthermore, neurotransmitters cannot be produced or function adequately if one does not eat a proper diet. Neurotransmitters cannot be formed if there is not sufficient meat protein in the diet to provide the essential amino acids and fatty acids needed for formation. Neurotransmitters also cannot be formed or function adequately if the body is lacking in crucial minerals like iron and magnesium and vitamins like B6 and pantethine.

Tho vit B 6 makes me want to crawl into a hole and die after a couple of days... I wonder why this is. 

 

It is too long I can't get thru it should not have attempted it tonight I was looking for a distraction from some very bad news... getting tired of dumping stuff here maybe i will talk about it some other place on here but not in this thread. 

peace all hope this was not a nuisance 

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btdt

In our brain we have toxin receptors, called xenosensors Toxins of all kinds; pesticides, cologne, laundry soap, bacteria, lyme, yeast, heavy metals, etc. are able to cross the blood brain barrier, which then triggers these receptors. These receptors have one of two roles. One, they trigger the locus ceruleus in the brain stem that a threat exists (the toxin) and the locus ceruleus releases norepinephrine to ignite the fight/flight system otherwise known as the sympathetic nervous system. Norepinephrine is an excitatory neurotransmitter and although crucial for survival, it is toxic to the brain in excess.

Once norepinephrine is released, then it stimulates the amygdala into action, which triggers emotions like fear, anxiety or anger, and the hypothalamus which triggers the pituitary to release ACTH to stimulate the adrenal glands to release cortisol and then preganglion sympathetic neurons stimulate the adrenal medulla to release epinephrine.

 

It makes sense that enduring a long term toxic environment the adrenal glands will become fatigued the next bit is how some drugs are xenosnsors. Stantins are listed here. 

 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21395534

Unfortunately, prescription drugs are included in the list of xenobiotic recognized by CAR and PXR. Among others, statins represent a good example of CAR- and PXR-mediated drug metabolism. Indeed statins, the most effective and prescribed cholesterol-lowering drugs, are target of xenobiotic response mediated by CAR and PXR. Here, we review the structural and molecular bases of CAR- and PXR-mediated drug response highlighting how these mechanisms could impact on statin metabolism. Moreover, the alteration of statin pharmacodynamics and/or pharmacokinetics induced by concomitant drug treatment or dietary factors will be also examined.

So if I understand this right they are using the brains toxic defence system to lower cholesterol that seems like risky business to me... as we have seen in past experience a little knowledge is dangerous.  What else is happening that they don't yet understand. 

It all ties in with multiple chemical sensitivities which has a thread here title TILT just to keep things complicated in the way we

 

have come to expect from pharma ;) just joking it seems this disorder has a million names ...

 

It was my mistake I forgot about this yes I really did... I know it sounds unlikely but it is true

more on the same thing by a different name.. here

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/11355-tilt-includes-fibro-and-multiple-chemical-sensitivity/?hl=tilt

 

I will link the TILT thread to this one for when I forget again 

peace all. 

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Vonnegutjunky

Just found this article - I kindled when I reinstated - do you think kindling when reinstating is the same effect as withdrawa, from a biological standpointl? I'm only asking because They have similar side effects - also will this make it more likely that those who have a kindling effect will also have bad wd?

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cymbaltawithdrawal5600

Someone mod-wise can remove the double post.

 

VJ, what article are you talking about? The initial link to the pdf posted by GiaK is dead as the domain is up for sale so the whole convo has no common reference point. Had you downloaded it and saved it before the site went offline?

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Vonnegutjunky

Sorry I meant thread, not article - I just,posted this question here as I thought btdt might answer it as they seemed to have been really looking into it

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btdt

If you follow the links I posted you will see how the add up depending on the day I can follow them some days my brain does not want to work that way and I realize I kind of took over this thread I have very bad manners but at the time was not thinking about manners still it may be worth a bit of bad manners to get a better understanding ...people reading will have to decide.  

 

If you follow my links you will see more about this.  I did ask Alto one time what Kindling was and wanted to read her response before I answered you but I can't find her response.  

 

So I will say I think it is possible that reinstating can cause kindling... but the ct that more often can lead to protracted wd is the worse of the two evils... since I could not tolerate reinstatement I got the latter... long and hard as it seems. 

 

if you want to read more about kindling check these links.  

 

Limbic Kindling: Hard Wiring the Brain for Hypersensitivity and ...
www.healthrising.org/.../limbic-kindling-hard-wiring-brain-hypersensitiv...
  1.  
by N Gratrix - ‎Related articles
May 17, 2014 - The limbic kindling model explains how multiple types of stressors (psychological, electrical or chemical) all result in the same outcome: chronic ...
The phenomenology of limbic kindling. - NCBI
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...
  1.  
National Center for Biotechnology Information
by ME Gilbert - ‎1994 - ‎Cited by 19 - ‎Related articles
Toxicol Ind Health. 1994 Jul-Oct;10(4-5):343-58. The phenomenology of limbic kindling. Gilbert ME(1). Author information: (1)ManTech Environmental ...
Chemical Sensitivity - Multiple Chemical Sensitivities Treatment and ...
www.dnrsystem.com/mcs.html
  1.  
  2.  
Multiple Chemical Sensitivity (MCS) is a Limbic System condition brought on by ... This can also lead to "Limbic Kindling", which is the brain's inability to ...
Chronic fatigue syndrome may be explained by limbic kindling
www.ei-resource.org/.../chronic-fatigue-syndrome-may-be-explained-by...
  1.  
  2.  

Sep 13, 2011 - Since kindling is a hypersensitivity response and typically occurs in thelimbic system (emotional/threat response centre) of the brain it would ...

 

I hope that helps in your understanding of the situation... 

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UnfoldingSky

I was just reading something (I thought was) unrelated to kindling and I'm not sure I'm interpreting this correctly but it seems in what I read there's a possible insinuation that the kindling theory of seizures is not actually proven.

 

Does anyone know if it is?  Just noting here that they use the words "suggested" and "proposed" (in the bit Alto quoted).

 

"In  1970,  Gellhorn  suggested  that   under  prolonged  stimulation  of  the  limbic-­ hypothalamic-­pituitary  axis,  a  lowered   threshold  for  activation  could  occur.(2)  Girdano   et  al  in  1990  proposed  that  the  excessive   arousal  could  lead  to  an  increase  in  dendrites   of  the  limbic  system,  which  can  further   increase  limbic  stimulation  and  hypersensitivity   to  stimuli."

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GiaK

very little is actually proven about this stuff...I let my body be proof of it...and it's led me to healing...really whatever stories we attach to this phenomena whether supposedly proven or not is quite secondary to my intuitive process which clearly knows all sorts of things as I pay attention to my body and what it needs. as far as I'm concerned the body and how it operates will always be mostly a mystery...we like to think we can actually know what's going on, but IMO we most certainly cannot...medicine harms us from this place of great arrogance. Healing has made it imperative that I leave that sort of certainty behind. 

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UnfoldingSky

I agree I don't think we can know all of what the body is doing...And intuition helped me greatly in the early days of withdrawal too.

 

And the kindling idea seems relevant to me in that I went on and off drugs a number of times and kept getting worse for doing that.

 

However the reason I asked about it was, I was reading some of Joanna Moncrieffs' work and came across a suggestion that the use of mood stabilizers for supposed "bipolar" came about based on the seizure kindling model..that they basically guessed that this  was what caused mania, and then proceeded to act on that assumption as if it were hard fact and thus drug people with mood stabilizers which of course didn't work out well for everyone.

 

It's already scary enough that they make a guess and then prescribe drugs on that guess without telling people it is a guess but, I thought if the seizure bit was not proven either then, well...it's doubly disturbing...And under that light too when drugs go wrong it's beyond ridiculous that they can't just believe people that the drugs harmed them.

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GiaK

right. agreed on all counts. 

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btdt

My body is having seizures recently the question is why?  I was at  a loss for this till I learned seizures can be caused by benadryl if the acetylcholine is too low... I took benadryl on doc orders for the drug allergy...last november and a few other times for food allergies since... again doctors orders. 

 

We all know I think that AD were created from a base drug of antihistamines and do indeed work as antihistamines as people who had allergies before seem to have no need for a antihistamine once on ssri snri drugs. 

 

I am thinking perhaps the cause of the seizures now and added memory loss confusion and cognitive problems was indeed taking antihistamines in the past year.  

 

Another thought is prednisone... as the culprit as after two doses I forgot how to drive.. temporarily.. not sure of the connection if any just guessing if you have any input lets hear it please. 

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GiaK

are you talking about actual seizures as in epileptic like activity, or is your body simply jerking around a whole lot?

 

The latter is actually a form of trauma release and I have found that it's good to simply let them do their thing...it's in fact very healing. It looks a bit like seizures but we remain totally conscious and when relaxed into it actually feels kind of good (that involves coming to trust that they are not bad, but instead a healing thing...which is, in itself, often a process)

 

If you're actually having true seizures that's something else altogether and I can't advise on that...medical care is important since true seizures are life-threatening. Please take appropriate care if you're having true seizures. 

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simack

I'm sorry to post this here but I was just wondering if someone on here could help clarify something for me.I'm having trouble comprehending the concept of kindling and wether it applies not only to benzo's /alcohol/ zdrugs but all forms of psychotropic drugs and brain related trauma.
I understand the priciple that withdrawing from, then reinstating a drug can worsen symptoms, and that it can also make tapering that drug much harder than the previous time.
I'm concerned that I may have kindle...d myself to a point of no longer being able to taper any of the drugs that I'm on.
Pre xmas 2015 I was able to taper zyprexa at a rate of -.1mg a week with minimal symptoms, however I decided to CT 50mg of seroquel over the xmas holidays.
I didnt notice any effects until febuary, then had to reinstate 50mg of seroquel and updose zyprexa to 3.75mg.
I've been holding here since and just recently tried to micro taper the zyprexa, cutting at -.025mg every four days, I made it to the second cut where I am right now and am experiencing complete insomnia.
My question is, is this kindling in action? is it permanent? if I hold even longer will I eventually stabilize enough to be able to taper again?

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GiaK

if you read the original article in this thread it's not specifically about psych drugs at all...kindling is something the traumatized over-stimulated nervous system does...so that can, indeed, include all psych drugs as well as many other potential stressors in ones environment. 

 

nothing is permanent by definition, no. We have incredible healing potentials. Learning to listen to the body and not push and find loving and gentle boundaries while we heal is part of the process...learning to do all that takes a lot of time quite often. 

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btdt

are you talking about actual seizures as in epileptic like activity, or is your body simply jerking around a whole lot?

 

The latter is actually a form of trauma release and I have found that it's good to simply let them do their thing...it's in fact very healing. It looks a bit like seizures but we remain totally conscious and when relaxed into it actually feels kind of good (that involves coming to trust that they are not bad, but instead a healing thing...which is, in itself, often a process)

 

If you're actually having true seizures that's something else altogether and I can't advise on that...medical care is important since true seizures are life-threatening. Please take appropriate care if you're having true seizures. 

 

I declined testing.  The doctor who offered it said this to me... "If you are indeed having seizures treating them would be a the very least difficult if not dangerous to me personally given all the drug reactions he has seen me have.  He added that he could bet his nurse I would react to a drug and win 9 times out of 10.  He suggested I increase my magnesium and we will look at the situation at followup.  Not all seizures show up on non invasive testing ... I am not having probes put into my head.  Since that visit awhile back now I have had more of these events... call them what you will.  My body stability is sometimes compromised while standing walking and sitting I wobble.  I am dropping things rather often a few broken dishes always from the same hand.  It has crossed my mind to do an urgent callin for reassessment it has also crossed my mind I am at the beginning of a serious illness.  One that has been knocking at my door a long time while I have been waiting on time to heal me.  I am hoping you are right and this is as you say some sort of healing... I am pushing hard to heal I know that is not what we hear about here to much but I have felt I was sliding backwards and have jumped head first into a healing program as I am feeling desperate and late at the post.  I am not feeling like sharing too much of what I am actually doing just now as I do not want to hear comments about it being wrong... I just am not up to it now.  If it works I will of course tell if it doesn't maybe I will just keep it to myself. 

 

The doctor I am seeing is top notch with tons of seizure experience and one of the last few docs on earth I actually would trust to give me a medication should it come to that... as he knows and believes me.  So for now I am doing everything but medication... like I said a long time ago I knew someday pharma and the medical machine would catch me as they catch us all sooner or later... we will see.. they did not get me yet but they may. Some day we will all have to submit to "treatment" of some type it is just the way of the land now. There is the possiblity this is a healing thing but it sure does not feel healing.... it may also be a reaction to the chemicals I am around as I cannot control it completely. Again time will tell. 

peace

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btdt

I'm sorry to post this here but I was just wondering if someone on here could help clarify something for me.I'm having trouble comprehending the concept of kindling and wether it applies not only to benzo's /alcohol/ zdrugs but all forms of psychotropic drugs and brain related trauma.

I understand the priciple that withdrawing from, then reinstating a drug can worsen symptoms, and that it can also make tapering that drug much harder than the previous time.

I'm concerned that I may have kindle...d myself to a point of no longer being able to taper any of the drugs that I'm on.

Pre xmas 2015 I was able to taper zyprexa at a rate of -.1mg a week with minimal symptoms, however I decided to CT 50mg of seroquel over the xmas holidays.

I didnt notice any effects until febuary, then had to reinstate 50mg of seroquel and updose zyprexa to 3.75mg.

I've been holding here since and just recently tried to micro taper the zyprexa, cutting at -.025mg every four days, I made it to the second cut where I am right now and am experiencing complete insomnia.

My question is, is this kindling in action? is it permanent? if I hold even longer will I eventually stabilize enough to be able to taper again?

I can tell you this much the higher the number of stops and starts you have from medications the more likely you are to have withdrawal.  

One wd... done by taper or even ct can often be overcome the more stops and starts you have the more the deck is stacked against you... best scenario one drug short term use never go back... one drug taper never go back.  

 

I for one believe there is a long window of recovery after the drugs are stopped regardless of how you went off if your still drug free a year or two later your likely out of the woods.  I have seen people talk of how they got off meds ct and feel fine yadda yadda but within the year they are back on meds or within two years... the idea of a long slow taper is to allow the brain to adjust... and to allow the feedback loops in the brain to adjust.. it takes time and may be like an elastic once stretched too far it just doesn't go back perfectly. This is how it seems to me... for some of us there is more going on much more and there are many theories as to why this is be it genetic ... SAR to meds to start with .... damage caused by the drugs.  Hard to say I suspect I will be long dead before the truth of the situation is known.  

 

As to what you should do next in your taper Mods are the best ones to ask as they know more than I do... 

I wish you healing and peace. 

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Christian

This is without doubt what has happened to me. The prognosis is not very good based on what I read. Even with proper diet. Of course there levels of kindling. But once cortisol is low, HPA axis is altered, it's very difficult to reverse. The prognosis for someone that was simply stressed that caused the CFS/ME vs someone who was kindled is much better. I hope I'm wrong.

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GiaK

everyone thinks they'll never get better when we're at the worst of this journey...most of us do get better even if it takes years.  hang on.

 

 

The It Gets Better Series

 

Last year for several weeks I republished old posts from the days when I was bedridden and unable to speak. I posted them with the contrast of the current commentary that reflected how much health I have found in the last few years of coming back from a severe iatrogenic injury caused by psychiatric drugs.

 

Today I’m collecting those posts so that I can add this page to the drop-down navigation menu. When I put it into the archives above I will title it “The It Gets Better Series.”  So that is what you will want to look for in the future. For now I’ve given it a different title because I wanted to underscore the fact that this blog has helped me in profound ways too. It’s never been a one way street. So I got the title from a sentence later in the post.

 

From the first post as way of explanation:

 

The “It gets better” collection is a series of republished posts from when I was gravely ill from the psych drug withdrawal process and the following protracted psychiatric drug withdrawal syndrome. So many folks out there are now going through the often heinous process of finding their way through psychiatric drug withdrawal syndrome and other iatrogenic injuries from psychiatric drugging. 

 

While many find their way through after weeks or months (with relative ease), for others it can take years to really get out of the deep disability and darkness it sometimes creates. I’ have reposted personal pieces from those difficult days, so that people can see how far I’ve come and find hope that they too might come out of that darkness and find some peace and joy again. I know it’s possible from my own experience and from the many who have found healing and wellness again on this journey ahead of me and with me. It was in part by trusting those who had gone ahead of me that I found the faith to continue.

 

During the worst of these times I was unable to sit upright in bed. I was only able to walk to the bathroom and rarely to the kitchen. My muscles became totally atrophied. I was too weak to hold a toothbrush up to my mouth and therefore went a couple of years without doing what most people consider simple acts of hygiene. I wrote with the laptop propped on my knees and my head propped up a bit with a pillow. Writing was a lifeline that helped me continue. It’s been a source of great joy to find out that my keeping this blog has helped so many others. I don’t believe I would have made it without that daily contact with others who also needed the information that was helping me so much. Among other things, this blog has been a profound act of reciprocity.

 

The grave disability is had for many years is no longer my reality. I am up and out of bed. I practice yoga daily. I dance, I walk and I cook and run errands and do chores. I have not achieved perfect functioning. I still can’t make firm commitments or travel. Still I can enjoy many things in life and I’ve developed a deep appreciation for what I’ve been through and how much it has taught me. Life is a wondrous thing and simply being alive is a reason to be grateful as far as I’m concerned. 

 

I’ll post one a week for a while and see how it goes. Most of these were written from within a dark fog of various sorts of pain and hellish sensations. I will be leaving them largely unedited, so consider that when perhaps something is not clear.

 

 

The collection:

and

On iatrogenic injury: Psychiatric Drugs Send 90,000 to the ER Yearly

 

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Bruin

GiaK Thank you.......You have done and do so much for all of us who are going through this tough experience. 

To keep giving and shining a light whilst suffering so is an extraordinary achievement and life saving.

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ravijaua

Awesome post by GiaK I read her website and it is very encouraging to a person starting out in WD like me.

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Christian

everyone thinks they'll never get better when we're at the worst of this journey...most of us do get better even if it takes years. hang on.

 

 

The It Gets Better Series

Last year for several weeks I republished old posts from the days when I was bedridden and unable to speak. I posted them with the contrast of the current commentary that reflected how much health I have found in the last few years of coming back from a severe iatrogenic injury caused by psychiatric drugs.

Today I’m collecting those posts so that I can add this page to the drop-down navigation menu. When I put it into the archives above I will title it “The It Gets Better Series.” So that is what you will want to look for in the future. For now I’ve given it a different title because I wanted to underscore the fact that this blog has helped me in profound ways too. It’s never been a one way street. So I got the title from a sentence later in the post.

From the first post as way of explanation:

The “It gets better” collection is a series of republished posts from when I was gravely ill from the psych drug withdrawal process and the following protracted psychiatric drug withdrawal syndrome. So many folks out there are now going through the often heinous process of finding their way through psychiatric drug withdrawal syndrome and other iatrogenic injuries from psychiatric drugging.

While many find their way through after weeks or months (with relative ease), for others it can take years to really get out of the deep disability and darkness it sometimes creates. I’ have reposted personal pieces from those difficult days, so that people can see how far I’ve come and find hope that they too might come out of that darkness and find some peace and joy again. I know it’s possible from my own experience and from the many who have found healing and wellness again on this journey ahead of me and with me. It was in part by trusting those who had gone ahead of me that I found the faith to continue.

During the worst of these times I was unable to sit upright in bed. I was only able to walk to the bathroom and rarely to the kitchen. My muscles became totally atrophied. I was too weak to hold a toothbrush up to my mouth and therefore went a couple of years without doing what most people consider simple acts of hygiene. I wrote with the laptop propped on my knees and my head propped up a bit with a pillow. Writing was a lifeline that helped me continue. It’s been a source of great joy to find out that my keeping this blog has helped so many others. I don’t believe I would have made it without that daily contact with others who also needed the information that was helping me so much. Among other things, this blog has been a profound act of reciprocity.

The grave disability is had for many years is no longer my reality. I am up and out of bed. I practice yoga daily. I dance, I walk and I cook and run errands and do chores. I have not achieved perfect functioning. I still can’t make firm commitments or travel. Still I can enjoy many things in life and I’ve developed a deep appreciation for what I’ve been through and how much it has taught me. Life is a wondrous thing and simply being alive is a reason to be grateful as far as I’m concerned.

I’ll post one a week for a while and see how it goes. Most of these were written from within a dark fog of various sorts of pain and hellish sensations. I will be leaving them largely unedited, so consider that when perhaps something is not clear.

The collection:

and

On iatrogenic injury: Psychiatric Drugs Send 90,000 to the ER Yearly

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjWWj4XQHEU

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Christian

Thanks Gia. That post was very helpful to me. I'll refer to it frequently during these dark times. I hope to be well enough one day where I can help people like you have.

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