Dr. William Walsh, Mensah Medical, and Walsh Institute (succeeds Pheiffer Institute)

[Meimeiquest]

Awhile back JanCarol asked me what I was going to do if tapering lithium didn't work. It hasn't been disastrous, but I am really stuck. I am thinking about going to Mensah Medical in the Chicago area. Has anyone related to them? The two doctors there were part of the Pheiffer Institute which closed. Dr. Walsh was head of the Institute and now heads the Walsh Institute, which does research into the biochemical basis of mental illness (this whole post may need to be deleted) and educates physicians on nutrient therapies. The Mensah Medical docs are the clinical people. The website mensahmedical.com has a resources page, if you can get it to come up with lots of resources, they are really interesting. Sadly, I am not nearly smart enough to know if the theories are true.

 

My sister has been going to a very expensive integrative doc for about four years. I think he has been doing these concepts (she isn't quite as fascinated as me, lol). Anyway, he pronounced her ready to go off Prozac after seventeen years of therapy with a two-week taper...and so far she is fine. I'm not jealous at all .

[Altostrata]

I haven't looked at any of the material closely, but it relies heavily on "biochemical imbalances" and "brain imbalances." The latter especially makes me suspicious.

[Meimeiquest]

Well, having just been through a minor mania/depression cycle induced by L-theanine, I'm not sure they're wrong. My dopamine/norepinephrine system just doesn't work right....I am always so tired, for over a decade, unless something bumps my dopamine up...but then it is too far up. But I think that is rare. I am third-generation in my family with mental issues, and it is not from trauma.

[rapunzel2]

I think that dr Walsh is onto something important. I've read his book, and I feel convinced. Also, I'm treating myself with Daily Essential Nutrients by Hardynutritionals (it's the same thing as former EmpowerPlus) and gluten-free-casein-free diet. I'm strongly improving, and I have been ill for 8 years. I have hope to become totally well!

[JanCarol]

Hey MeiMei - looks expensive!  Or as the Aussies would say, "Looks Posh!"

 

My best friend in the US is a GP/PCP.  Actually, she's now only available to University Students, which is a shame, because she's one of the finest diagnosticians I know.  Intuitive, artful.  But she had to leave the corporate doctor business as it was driving her crazy.  She went to some seminars on "Integrative Medicine" and she talked about the types of tests she wanted to run based on what she learned.

 

So Patient A comes into her office complaining of short breath.  Traditional med says test heart and lung function, maybe write a script for a puffer or some pills.  Integrative medicine would want her to run series of tests on supporting function, like spleen or other things that I don't understand - but she does.  Except she's only got 12 minutes with the patient, and the research to look up which tests alone would have her running out of time, and the corporation would crack the whip and tell her to move on to the next patient.  And oh yeah.  Insurance won't pay for the tests...  So she would like to practice "Integrative" and is curious to see how it works, but doesn't have practical, hands on, feet on the ground knowledge of it.  To SEE it work.

 

It seems like the main way this place could harm you is in the wallet.  I suppose it is better to pay something for nothing (worst case scenario, right?) than it is to pay anything or nothing for harm and abuse (standard of care).  At the very worst, they are useless. 

 

But if they are useless, how did they procure those big fancy offices?  Which came first, the validity?  or the money?  

 

Sorry this isn't very helpful, but maybe it gives you some things to think of - some ways to think of it.  You said they train in Australia.  What does that mean?  We don't have Integrative here, do we?  Maybe one per capital city?

[JanCarol]

Oooh, I err.  It wasn't "integrative medicine" that my friend took those classes on, it was "Functional medicine"  BIG DIFFERENCE.  Integrative could mean practically anything.  Integrating wellness practices like naturopaths, massage, acupuncture, supplements, chiropractic with a doc on board?  That's what my GP's practice is.  I remember my friend used "Integrative" in the 90's, as opposed to strict allopathic medicine.  

 

This Functional thing is new, and while we may have "integrative" practices here in Oz, I'm not sure what that means.  I definitely would be hard pressed to find a Functional Medicine MD practitioner here, though my GP claims to have heard about it.

 

Your around Chicago?  What about Orthomolecular?  You have any of that nearby?

[Meimeiquest]

I think integrative and functional are synonyms. I think the doc you mentioned as plan B is on the list for the Walsh Institute. Yes, it is orthomolecular medicine...I did go to sort of an orthomolecular guy in 2008/09, but as my sleep apnea was missed (although we discussed the possibility) and he had me try to taper Zyprexa in 50% cuts it didn't go very well. My sister's doc was $1500 for the first visit (3 hours)...she obviously lives in a different financial world than I do. These people are $450 for the first visit, if I remember. We have had too many brain problems in our family...I think I read the Pheiffer institute was based on 50 years of research...anyway, I have seen references to them for years, but it seemed incredible that vitamins and such could cure such serious problems, so I didn't look into it.

 

We can't afford for me to go. My pdoc says I "have many obsessional tendencies." I said, "You're right, I'm very obsessive about this. Do you realize I've been exhausted for fifteen years?" She said I need to get off the Internet and take a break. I asked her if she would have known Niacin could help my crazy anxiety. She has had to add Klonopin to her Cymbalta and Provigil. Why, oh why do all my professionals feel like it will help if I know the struggles of their lives? But the scripts are being written... So now I need to be obsessed about saving money, like I wasn't already.

[Altostrata]

Do you have a good relationship with this pdoc?

[Meimeiquest]

She's very likeable, she believes in a patient's right to self-determination. I don't know who else I would go to. I did talk to an Atlanta dr. from this list who seemed kind and knowledgeable. He said it is not possible to get off this much medicine after this much time, the brain is too adapted, but he would assess me. He is almost right . A newcomer to Nashville said the city has a reputation for being very pro-medication.

[Altostrata]

Well, you're doing the best you can. At least she's likeable. Maybe you can figure out a diplomatic way to tell her to mind her own dang business.

 

No doctor has the whole picture about going off these drugs. Since so few do gradual tapers with periodic holds, they may see preventable failures.

 

You've already reduced quite a lot!

[Altostrata]

Note: This is in response to a member posting: "What Your Doctor Might Not Know About Depression:"

This is utter baloney. There are no neurotransmitter imbalances of any type in "depressed" people, and this guy can't test for that, either.
 
He conflates nutrient deficiencies with neurotransmitter imbalances. There are nutrient deficiencies that can be tested. Whether or not they are connected with what is known as "depression" has not been demonstrated by anyone.

[UnfoldingSky]

Alto is right, this is from Dr. Healy's withdrawal guide:

 

"Serotonin is normal in depression."

.

[UnfoldingSky]

Here's the link to the guide:

 

 http://tinyurl.com/DavidHealyGuide

 

Having said that there are some known deficiencies or dietary supplements that might help what gets labeled as "depression".  True vit. D deficiencies do lead to fatigue.  Also, fish oil or increasing oily fish intake/intake of Omega 3 fatty acids has been reported to help some people.

[rapunzel2]

William J. Walsh is very knowledgeable person who has done extensive research on biochemistry of depression and nutritional treatments. to call it baloney is not respectable. people are being greatly helped by nutritional treatments. only withdrawing from drugs is not enough in many cases. 

[Rhiannon]

I watched it until he gets into talking about how there are five different types of depression caused by five different types of chemical neurotransmitter imbalances and he has developed different nutritional treatment regimens for each of those.

 

Nobody has been able to show that depression is caused by neurotransmitter imbalances; in fact, nobody has been able to show that any psychiatric disorder is caused by neurotransmitter or chemical imbalances. It's speculation, a hypothesis, put forward originally by psychiatry. It has become the dominant paradigm in medicine (especially psychiatry) because it justifies the use of psych drugs, which is a highly profitable system for both psychiatrists (15-minute hours) and Big Pharma.

 

But it has become the dominant paradigm without any actual evidence. It's just made up out of whole cloth. The pharmaceutical companies will admit it if you pin them down. All attempts to find proof have failed.

 

This guy isn't questioning the "chemical imbalance" paradigm, he's just tweaking it.  The paradigm itself is extremely problematic (because of what it has led to) and is not supported by evidence.  I agree, we don't need to be reinforcing it here.

[Meimeiquest]

Probably a dumb question, but has anyone proved that neurotransmitters aren't involved?

[Altostrata]

Of course neurotransmitters are involved, they are the chemical messengers of all activity in the body and brain, as are all the other hormones. No one hormone does any one thing.

 

The concept of "imbalance" is the problem.

 

People who have demonstrated nutritional deficiencies may or may not have what's called "depression." People who have what's called "depression" -- which can be almost anything -- may or may not have nutritional deficiencies. The relationship Walsh draws in this video is correlation, not causation, but he calls it causation.

 

That is not to say that correcting nutritional deficiencies cannot make you feel better in all ways. It can, including relieving feelings of malaise you (or your doctor) calls "depression." But were you feeling "depressed" or were you feeling down because you were ill?

 

As Rhi points out, Walsh is using the language and model of "neurotransmitter imbalance" to sell his own agenda. His treatments on their own may be entirely valid to improve health, but his riding on a bandwagon of "neurotransmitter imbalance" sounds to me either deliberately misleading or uninformed.

[rapunzel2]

well, it's a matter of semantics then. not the question if he is right about the nutrition and mental illness connection. 

[Altostrata]

Would you call feeling bad because you were sick a "mental illness"?

[mammaP]

Would you call feeling bad because you were sick a "mental illness"?

My sentiments exactly!   

[Meimeiquest]

Depends what I was sick with .

 

I actually am flying to Chicago on Thursday to see the doctors who work with Dr. Walsh (he is a chemical engineer by training). It may be a big waste of money we don't have, but I have studied and thought for a long time about what I would do if my lithium taper wasn't working, and it is time to implement that plan.

 

So you need to decide if it is ok for me to post about that visit, given the chemical imbalance rule.

 

I will say that if someone attributes depression to vitamin B12 deficiency, for example, that is an attribution to a problem with neurotransmitters. The MTHFR gene/enzyme is the important, rate-limiting portion of the methylation cycle, but the whole cycle is much more complex than that. Dr. Ben Lynch posted his understanding of the whole cycle yesterday on his FB page. Www.nancymullan.md has a simplified version. One section of that cycle makes some neurotransmitters, another gene degrades them (I think). And not all neurotransmitters come through methylation, if I remember right. So if you have some gene inefficiency due to small genetic issues, I can easily imagine how someone could end up with a neurotransmitter imbalance.

 

This blew my mind: each gene does one thing: codes for a protein, and proteins that catalyze chemical changes are called enzymes. It would be very unusual for a person to have a defect that obliterates or changes a whole gene. Most changes are in little portions called snp's (snips). If something is working inefficiently, providing a high dose of a nutrient that is a co-factor to the chemical reaction can push that reaction more towards normal. Is this all true? I have no idea.

 

The thing I find hardest to buy into is that they believe these five phenotypes are often found in all forms of mental illness. Given the different symptoms, it doesn't make sense. They said, "That's just what we have observed over the years." Given Dr. Walsh's background, I can sort of understand the very biochemical focus. I don't think they have the answer to mental illness, just some puzzle pieces at best. And I, with lots of mental illness in my generally stable family, am going to see this from a different perspective than someone who has had depression secondary to trauma or a general misdiagnosis.

 

At least in the long lecture on phenotypes the doctor said, "We fix these problems, and then we VERRRY slowly reduce their meds."

[Altostrata]

meimei, "neurotransmitter" is a term cooked up in the "chemical imbalance" era to explain the action of psychiatric drugs. There is no distinction between a neurotransmitter, a neurohormone, or a regular hormone.
 
All of the hormones working in concert contribute to general health and well-being. They also work with all the organs in the body, feedback mechanisms, nutrients, etc. All metabolic activity produces hormones, converts nutrients, excretes waste, etc. in an endless complex cycle. And that goes for the methylation cycle, too. (From my reading, Ben Lynch is way out in the weeds in treating methylation problems -- his definitions get broader and broader and treatments more and more trial-and-error.)
 
Nothing in the body takes place without hormones. If you're saying neurohormones are involved in the methylation cycle, all you're saying is metabolism is involved.
 
As far as "mental illness" is concerned, "neurotransmitter imbalance" or deficiency of any particular neurohormone does not exist. This is true in conventional medicine, alternative medicine, orthomolecular medicine, functional medicine, faith healing, etc.
 
If Walsh's nutrient therapies make people feel better, it's because they fill a nutrient need, not because they balance "neurohormones." There's also a strong placebo effect.

 

Walsh's use of pop psychiatry terminology makes me very suspicious about the theoretical foundation of his work. Here's how he describes what he does http://www.walshinstitute.org/advanced-nutrient-therapy.html

Advanced Nutrient Therapy
By William J. Walsh, PhD

For the past several decades, treatment of mental illness has focused on imbalanced brain chemistry and the use of drugs to alter the activity of serotonin, dopamine, and other neurotransmitters. Back in 1970, drugs were the only method known to have a powerful impact on molecular processes in the brain. This approach proved to be highly successful and has benefited millions of persons diagnosed with depression, schizophrenia, ADHD, and other mental disorders. However, science has made great advances in the understanding of complex brain processes, and we are approaching an era in which psychiatric medications may no longer be necessary. An underappreciated fact is that the primary raw materials for the synthesis of many neurotransmitters are nutrients-amino acids, vitamins, minerals, and other natural biochemicals that we obtain from food. Advanced nutrient therapy (vitamins, minerals and amino acids) offers an alternative treatment approach, which represents a natural method of correcting imbalances in neurotransmitter activity. The clinical challenge is to determine biochemistry of each patient and to develop an individualized treatment plan aimed at normalizing brain chemistry.....

"Normalizing brain chemistry" with nutrients:  Well, metabolism will change those nutrients. Once they get to the brain, the brain has its own defenses -- homeostasis -- to maintain brain chemistry. Those nutrients do not change brain chemistry.

Poor health can cause symptoms that, if you go to Dr. A, might be called "depression." But if you go to Dr. B, she might call it "low vitamin B12."
 
If Dr. B gives you a B12 shot and you feel better, did she treat "depression" or did she treat low B12? Did Dr. B adjust your neurohormones? Or was "depression" a misdiagnosis from Dr. A?
 
I cannot agree with your statement
 

I will say that if someone attributes depression to vitamin B12 deficiency, for example, that is an attribution to a problem with neurotransmitters.

 
unless by neurotransmitters you mean "nerve cell damage" -- which renders the term "neurotransmitters" meaningless.

 

As you know, I would appreciate your avoiding framing posts in terms of neurotransmitter deficiencies, which has no meaning outside of psychiatry's bogus "chemical imbalance" theory.

It may be you have a metabolic issue that, with tinkering, Mensah Medical can repair. I hope they help you. If they do, I would not conclude they've corrected your neurotransmitters, I would conclude they've hit on something that helps correct your metabolism. It could even be different water in Warrenville containing different bacteria. I doubt Mensah Medical knows anything about getting people off lithium. Please let us know if they do.

(By the way, Mensah Medical says they work on "biochemical imbalances," not neurotransmitter or neurohormonal imbalances. They probably took out references to neurotransmitters because that's out of fashion now and completely irrelevant anyway.)
 
Please do let us know what you find out from Mensah Medical in this existing topic http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/6181-mensah-medical-and-walsh-institute-succeeds-pheiffer-institute/
 

[Meimeiquest]

Ok. Who do you recommend re: methylation?

[Altostrata]

I don't believe the surface has been scratched on methylation. I think that what's showing up is that people are not getting enough B vitamins from the modern diet, and the folic acid supplements added to processed food aren't helping.

 

From what I can tell, correction is entirely trial-and-error, which means going through all the supplements and combinations one by one and seeing what happens.

 

What did Mensah Medical tell you they would do? Their product shelf is not particularly exotic http://www.mensahmedicalstore.com/ (Their folate is not methylated...hmmm....)

[Meimeiquest]

Test my blood and do a phone consult when the results are in . I am not at all sure that I can even tolerate their combo supplements. What I really want is just a shred of data to take me to the next clue.

 

I'm working off of two clues right now...the high-dose niacin really helps me (I was very nauseated and anxious just trying to wean in prep for this trip). I'll have to have the lab work done here because I could never fly like that. And my sister was greatly helped by a doctor who apparently followed Walsh ideas...he never said that, but the testing and supplements are like theirs. I am almost offended that she followed his advice and went off Prozac with a two week taper despite seeing how sick I've been. I don't know how she'll do, especially since within a month she had to have a total hysterectomy and a major steroid injection.

 

I agree with you 100% about diet. In the beginning of all this, diet so affected me, but my husband just couldn't get it that my health was at stake, and I didn't have the energy to fight or to cook separately. He has gotten the memo now, and as he says, "paid his pound of flesh." But I think I am past a good diet being enough. My sister was told she doesn't excrete toxins or metals normally...I will definitely need lab work to get my husband to go for that.

 

This is another clue, or maybe motivation. My dad, the source of any mental health genetic issues I have, recently died of cancer. His mother had severe post-partum episodes twice, the second lasting maybe a decade and demonstrated some OCD behavior around the time of her wedding. She was one of seven...we can't remember how the oldest died, but he was old and may have had mental problems, one died of suicide as a young father, and all the rest died of cancer. They were raised on or lived their lives on a farm and their births were scattered around the turn of the century....the modern diet was not their problem.

 

Maybe I'm being OCD to feel the need to run this all down. I saw my gp today, he said, "you think too much." I said, "Well, someone is going to have to do a lot of thinking if I'm ever going to get well."

 

Thanks so much for your input, Alto.

[Altostrata]

What is the test they require?

 

You might look at the 2 books on their site -- available for slightly less $$ on Amazon.

[Meimeiquest]

They decide what tests to do at your visit, based on the interview and their assessment. And you can decide yourself what testing you want and have it done, with or without consultation with them. But we decided I needed to assess them face-to- face. I have read and watched a lot, but they never release the full protocol for dosing the supplements....it is really just marketing in a way.

[UnfoldingSky]

I am not a sheep willing to be blindly lead by a leader with a personal agenda that causes physical and psychological harm.

 

 

I took issue with what you wrote in your post about low serotonin but not with you personally, and I don't see where anyone insulted you. Obviously if you post a theory of "mental illness" on this board it is going to be contested.

 

So I'll thank you kindly not to insult me.

 

Also you are not the only person here with a relevant background.  There are many problems with that video and what you wrote in your post, and people here have every right to challenge them. 

 

Among the problems, he mentioned copper overload and makes it sound like that is depression.  But a thorough medical work-up which should (but often doesn't) take place before someone is diagnosed with mental illness would include looking for Wilson's Disease--which is presumably what he is talking about.  This makes the diagnosis of depression superfluous.  It would be like saying nausea from pancreatitis was a separate disease.

 

And anyway, Wilson's Disease is also rare, at least according to the Wilson's Disease site:

 

Wilson disease is a genetic disorder that is fatal unless detected and treated before serious illness from copper poisoning develops. Wilson disease affects approximately one in 30,000 people worldwide.

 

This then does not account for "depression".  People don't die outright of depression. What he is talking about are a small subset of people who were misdiagnosed.  Does it not say in the DSM that symptoms can't be accounted for by another illness???

 

But there are other problems as well.

 

Rather obviously, every emotion and behavior has a biological correlate.  But it does not automatically follow that they are diseases. 

 

Nutritional supplements will help true nutritional problems but they aren't going to solve situational issues.  They won't solve trauma, abuse, rape, job losses, relationship issues, grief and any number of other problems which are all too commonly said to be due to the "mental illness" depression. Framing these problems as diseases can lead to all kinds of problems, like loss of human rights, discrimination, dangerous and irrelevant treatment, etc...He makes it sound like everyone can be helped with the right nutrients and that all problems reside solely inside the sufferer, that they are all somehow defective.   That is not true.

 

Also re neurotransmitter imbalances one of the DSM Taskforce Members as much as admitted they were unproven recently when he said that they didn't know what the biomarkers for "mental illness" were.

 

Based on that video what it sounds like this guy is doing is he is treating people with identifiable and known physical diseases which other doctors overlooked and misdiagnosed. 

[Meimeiquest]

Yes, there is a comment on the doctor's homepage "this is an axis III clinic." That refers to the four axis (axes?) of psychiatric assessment; axis III is the assessment of physical factors causing or contributing to the situation. To me, it says they know they are only part of the solution.

 

Dr. Walsh's work in this started many years ago. He volunteered with an agency that assisted people in prison or transitioning out. He read an article about differences in zinc levels in the hair of prisoners vs, non-prisoners, and set to work. I think he is a good man, at the end of his career, and he would really like these ideas to progress beyond his own life and work. He has given talks recently at the International Bipolar Foundation and the APA. He may be framing his language to fit the ears of his hearers. That is my gut feeling about all this. BUT none of that has anything to do with the accuracy of his theories. And they are very up-front that not all patients receive benefit.

[UnfoldingSky]

Thank you Meimei , I didn't read his webpage, I was basing my response on the video.  I am glad to hear they are not claiming it will help everyone, and no doubt he would help some people. 

 

This is a very touchy subject for me though as I do have a nutritional deficiency which would have been better off called that and not a "mental illness", labeling it as depression has led me to nearly lose my life in the process.  But once framed like that as I am sure you know it becomes almost impossible to remove the label.

 

And I am sure you are probably right re him framing things to suit who he is speaking to.  The video set me off though because of some things going on here, they just announced the police have been distributing some peoples' mental health information to third parties, so it's made me more inclined to want them to label these things properly, as obviously people don't have their rights automatically revoked for having a vit. deficiency in the same way those labeled "mentally ill" do. 

 

Anyway peace to you and everyone here, it certainly was not my intention when I posted earlier in the thread to cause a big argument and my apologies if it was taken like that.

[compsports]

I have been following this thread and greatly appreciate the folks who demand that the alternative folks be just as upfront about their practices as the mainstream professionals.

 

Meimequest, I definitely understand your desperation.  I came very close to seeing a naturopath in spite of my reservations out of desperation.   But I decided to email him just to see what he would say about sleep apnea.   I wasn't expecting him to know everything but I still wanted to see how he responded.   I had a sense he was totally clueless and as a result, decided to not follow up with him.

 

I hope you find your answers but please be careful.   I have wasted so much money with alternative folks and just don't want to see you get hurt in the process.

 

CS

[Meimeiquest]

Could y'all come with me?

[compsports]

Could y'all come with me?

I don't think you would want me with you.  I would get us both kicked out.

[Meimeiquest]

If they're that defensive, it would be very enlightening

[Altostrata]

Distinguishing and treating real physical ailments instead of calling them "mental illness" and throwing psychiatric drugs at them is simply good medicine. No argument there.
 
As with many alternative practitioners, this one may or may not offer valid treatments. Many are well-meaning but just as much in the dark as conventional medical practitioners. In my opinion, the rhetoric used to promote this particular approach is not a good sign.
 
I will give everyone who wishes to stay in touch with RebelMaven a day to copy the contact information she has made public in http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/6409-depression-and-serotonin-finally-a-doctor-who-understands/?p=88969 before deleting all her posts as she has requested.
 
I will move all posts in this topic that are not RebelMaven's into a related existing topic http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/6181-mensah-medical-and-walsh-institute-succeeds-pheiffer-institute/ so this interesting discussion can continue.

[Meimeiquest]

Today I read Walsh's book, Nutrient Power. I thought it was fascinating, I just don't have a way to assess its overall accuracy. And I surely couldn't follow all the science, readable as he tried to make it. Two conclusions: He is a decent man who has worked hard all through his career to try to make the world a better place and to move science forward. If someone from SA wants to read it, you will need a plan to protect your Kindle while you are screaming and breaking things (just metaphorically of course.). Biochemical science,..need I say more? It made me feel a bit more confident that of the options I was considering, this is probably the best for me. But my history is different from most here.

 

I will definitely be asking if they have any ideas for the people who have been hit with severe akathisia!