Dr. William Walsh, Mensah Medical, and Walsh Institute (succeeds Pheiffer Institute)

[sasa]

I have an appointment with Mensah next week. I am really debating whether I should go. I read the Nutrient Power book and have had some tests which show some nutrient deficiencies and also overloads. I am curious to know how the treatment is going for you and what the taper schedule is that they recommend once you do start to taper. I just don't know if I am throwing my money away. I tried Truehope unsuccessfully but that was based on a cookie cutter approach and I see where it failed. I am so terrified of another mania but I can't keep living with these poisons in me. 

[Meimeiquest]

What testing did you have done? What are your worries about Mensah? Two things have made a huge difference for me this year...becoming more compliant on eating gluten and dairy free (I also eat generally healthy, whole foods, but don't know what impact it has had) and taking the Mensah supplements.

 

I don't think they make tapering recommendations per se (I never asked...nobody, not even them, runs my tapers but me, and I use this forum as my primary information source). I will say that Dr. Bowman said, "Wow, that's a huge reduction" when I gave her my doses, and she didn't say it in a pleased way. I filed monthly reports at one time, and once Dr. Mensah wrote that he thought I was tapering the benzo too fast, but he would defer to my pdoc. I believe they think the prescriber of the psych meds should run the taper. But they do believe it needs to be very slow, and that it takes some months before the nutritional therapy reaches effectiveness.

 

True Hope's dosages are very small and much broader compared to Dr. Walsh's approach. I wouldn't be concerned if they didn't help you.

 

I think Dr. Kelly Brogan has more focus on the impact of cortisol and gut health on mental health, but as far as tryng to sort out genetic issues, my own personal opinion is that they are the most cost-effective. You probably know that there are doctors who try to run down individual mutations, but I think this concept of epigenetic management is more aligned to what science has come to so far. It will likely change over time.

 

My blood test results have changed some over time, but the newest are more aligned with what I think I am like and how I feel physically. They are starting me on treatment for mild overmethylation and heavy metals....before it was copper overload and pyrrole disorder. I will continue pyrrole treatment but my test has normalized. I have mild discomfort in my liver area that feels much like when I had hepatitis, and I really think I may need some work there (the liver is the big player in detox of all kinds, including metals). I think lithium does so much in the brain, it is easy to imagine methylation status could change while tapering off of it, especially since lithium was actually very helpful to me. I just don't know if it helped the "real me" or problems I was having from a virtual CT off an AD after my mania-ish episode.

 

So that's my opinion, but it's certainly not fact. It pretty much is fact, though, that the Mensah doctors know more about Dr. Walsh's ideas than any other physicians. And they will make you feel very comfortable and hopeful. But whether it is right for you, I don't know.

[sasa]

Well I just did a hair analysis, pyrrole and WBH test. Unfortunately, it won't be ready for the appointment. I had an integrative doctor run copper, zinc, b6 and ceruloplasmin and I have high (42%) unbound copper very low b6 and zinc.  We'll see how the other tests come back. I am impressed with Dr. Kelly Brogan. I am happy to hear you are doing better with your nutrition and the supplements. I'm not sure what to think but I am going to the appointment. Thanks for the feedback. Did you hold for awhile on your taper once you started the initial treatment?

[Meimeiquest]

Well, those imbalances are their bread and butter. Hopefully they will be able to help you. I'm sure many people would be interested to read of your experience.

[toomanymeds]

Do you think the supplements have helped you stablize more quickly after each taper?

[Meimeiquest]

Well, I was a mess 10 months after going off Wellbutrin, so it made it possible for me to start tapering again. I still destabilize with every drop. I would say it has helped my baseline a lot, but tapering not so much. They have me use inositol and GABA for "calming" and they do take the edge off. I add taurine when my pulse starts going up.

[toomanymeds]

Well, I was a mess 10 months after going off Wellbutrin, so it made it possible for me to start tapering again. I still destabilize with every drop. I would say it has helped my baseline a lot, but tapering not so much. They have me use inositol and GABA for "calming" and they do take the edge off. I add taurine when my pulse starts going up.

[toomanymeds]

Where are you now with your taper? I guess I want to know if you think it has changed your quality of life for the better?

[Meimeiquest]

Right now I am at the tail end of recovering from cuts in August. I am on what is between 1/3 and 1/4 of my original lithium dose, have come off Adderall, Nuvigil, Zyprexa, Wellbutrin, metoprolol, and oxazepam in roughly three and a half years. The Adderall and Nuvigil were easy. Otherwise, I have had maybe two drops without symptoms in all the many drops. It has just been hard, but not impossible, even on this protocol. But I feel my baseline is much, much better than without it. Yet it is still a work in progress, especially since I have moved to the Enhancer protocol (basically for enhancing metathalionones, ? Spelling). I am still ramping up on it and I have symptoms with every dose increase. There are probably other ways to accomplish the same thing, and someday when I am off lithium I will probably try to reduce some of the supplements (I buy them individually on my own now instead of having them compounded together), but really, I haven't had any doubts that this has been very helpful for me. But not magic, just part of healing overall. Of course, this is just my opinion. Recently I also added chiropractic treatments because many of my health issues seem to go back to the liver, I have had discomfort in that area, and I have a lot of stiffness in my lower thoracic spine where nerves to the liver area come out from the spine. When I increase the Enhancer, I have brief bouts now of pretty intense spasmodic pain which seems to be in the gallbladder area.

[toomanymeds]

Thanks for getting back to me so quickly! Do you take the B5 supplements along with zinc. Do you have anxiety or nausea when tapering or increasing your supplements? Can you get addicted to the inositol?

[Meimeiquest]

Thanks for getting back to me so quickly! Do you take the B5 supplements along with zinc. Do you have anxiety or nausea when tapering or increasing your supplements? Can you get addicted to the inositol?

I take several B's in the morning and zinc in the evening. But my daughter's script has her taking them both a.m.and p.m. The B's can contribute to insomnia. My doses are pretty insane. My local doc says there are algorithms they work off of, but it is so complex that he has recently gone through training a second time,

 

I don't know what too much inositol might do, but I don't believe it is addictive.

 

I was not an anxious person before 2006, but now anything can make me anxious, especially tapering psych drugs. Yes, I have had both nausea and anxiety when increasing the supplements, but it was pretty short-lived.

[toomanymeds]

I am considering going to the Mensah Clinic. I am on 6 different meds and have not been stable for at least two years. I feel like he is my last resort in figuring out my instability. Do you have any further opinions about the Mensah Clinic?

[Meimeiquest]

There are probably other ways to accomplish what they do. Because Dr. Walsh's research goes back so far, before Roundup has so affected our food and health, I'm not sure they are completely up to speed on gut health (although they are very aware of it). Working with them in person is of course more effective than just a phone consult.

 

Those are the cons or precautions. Apart from that, I can't imagine where I would be without them. If you are too sick to research and follow special diets, I don't know of a better option. 100% glad I went, but I think I personally still am working through some gut/inflammation issues.

[toomanymeds]

I live very close to their office. I'm too sick to cook and buy what I would need for special diet. How do you you feel when you have gut issues? Pain,, nausea, gas?

[toomanymeds]

One more question. Do you take any type of way protein to help with glutathione?

I know I'm asking you a lot of questions I just want to make sure before I send the money that I'm doing the right thing. Thank you so much for all your help. It's a big decision going to the Mensah Clinic.

[Meimeiquest]

First, probably only a small percentage of their patients are prescribed glutathione. This product is called Enhancer Adult 1 if you want to look it up. Whey protein is made up of many amino acids, and I don't know what they are. The amino acids in Enhancer are serine, lysine, alanine, glycine, and threonine.

 

Please note that our bodies should be able to take the regular proteins we eat and make all the unique amino acids we could possibly need. If we ca't do that, there is a problem with the gut and/or liver. I really think gut deterioration is affecting us more than we realize. But healing the gut is really hard. I think Mensah's treatment may be a nutritional bandaid for many. But a bandaid that works can be invaluable at times.

 

My daughter tested normal on her Mensah testing except her pyrroles were ten times the upper limit of normal. We have recently had some specialized DNA analysis of her stool, and she's a mess. Less than four weeks into treatment and her chronic urticaria is gone. But it involves dietary intervention and a lot of expense.

 

If you decide to go to Mensah, I'm sure many people would like to hear about your experiences.

[toomanymeds]

When you said you were a mess getting off of Wellbutrin, what were you symptoms? Was nausea one of them?

[Meimeiquest]

I had some nausea but I never vomited. The head weirdness, insomnia, anxiety, sometimes depression, weird chemical tastes...it's been so long and I am so caught up in more recent tapers, I don't remember everything. I was off several months before I went to Mensah. I had a lot of anxiety and depression starting maybe six weeks after I stopped. But I had gone off another big med right before Wellbutrin, and was still on others, so hard to know what all caused what.

[JanCarol]

OK, I've been going to my Ortho / Walsh trained practitioner for just under a year now.

 

My "pyrrhole" has cleared up, I'm now decreasing B12, B6, folate and zinc. I will continue the Evening Primrose Oil for a bit longer, gradually tapering off during the year - I do eat a lot of nuts, which should help with that.  My mood is stable, but low.  (but that could be a reaction to the big accidental lithium drop in September)

 

My copper is through the floor (because of chronic diarrhea); I still have gut issues (Walsh/ortho doesn't address those), and have had to do try and figure that out on my own.  I am on a wheat free, low gluten, low carb, dairy free / pseudo-Paleo diet.  I have not looked into histamine.  When I get really sick I make a broth, but I can't stick with it for more than a day or two, and then the broth spoils in my fridge.  The broth (GAPS protocol) feels REALLY GOOD but it's hard to live on broth, even when you're sick.  Sometimes, especially when you're sick.  I've been working with bentonite internally, and charcoal, coconut oil, green tea, papaya and digestive enzymes.

 

I believe there is something to the B3 / B6 / Zinc / EPO protocol, but the Walsh protocol has not checked my D3 (I've had to request that from another doctor) which I think is critical to mood.

 

As MeiMei has been saying - there's something to it, even if it is not the whole picture.  I still have to do a lot of research and discovery and experimentation on my own.  It does not discuss the gut at all.  It doesn't look at D3, mood and sleep.  (or the cofactors of that).  It does not address high cholesterol (for example).

 

I was already on a lot of these supplements when I walked in the door of my Walsh-based practitioner, she only fine tuned and tweaked what I was already doing.  She does want me to use her "practitioner only" $$$$upplements, but I resist those when I can.

 

I am better, but again, only marginally.  I make a change, I get improvement, but I am still very sick, and still somewhat moody.

 

I am not, however, afraid of "quitting my lithium" like I used to be.

[JanCarol]

On the Walsh "biochemical imbalance" thing - 

 

I said to my practitioner, shaking my head:  "This is really bending my brain, because I've really come to disbelieve that a simple biochemical imbalance has anything to do with emotional wellbeing, and I'm learning the value of psychosocial factors in my healing."

 

She smiled and said, "Well, at least with this system, the treatment is not horrific or damaging, like the psych drugs are.  The treatments are nutrients, not drugs."  Implying that, while there may be troubles and imbalances as we work out my treatment - there will not be damage, like there would be with psych drugs.

 

A year later, I haven't been harmed - but - caveat - I was not in classic antidepressant withdrawal.  I was/am in chronic iatrogenic damage - which is different to most cases here.  I do not know how the Walsh protocol would do for someone suffering withdrawal symptoms.

[ChessieCat]

Hi JC,

 

Could you freeze the broth in serving portions for later use?  CC

[JanCarol]

I've wondered about that Chessie - would that damage the healing enzymes?  The GAP thing seems to relish fresh broth.

 

Anyhow, doing more research on "pyroluria," found an excellent debunking article (recent, too):

 

http://www.drbillsukala.com.au/nutrition/pyroluria-disease-myth/

 

I think what aggravates me, is that they call it "genetic."  Not even my Walsh practitioner calls "pyroluria" genetic - she calls it "oxidative stress" and, like MeiMei's practitioner and "adrenal fatigue" - wants to get to the cause of it, not treat it as a disease, but treat it as a symptom of a deeper imbalance.

 

I have been helped by the treatment - I see "pyroluria" as an imbalance, not a "disorder" or "disease."  It's just a lab indication that you could use nutritional support.

[ChessieCat]

Hi Jan,

 

From Nourishing Plot: 

 

Can I reheat my meat stock after the initial cooking?

– Yes. Be sure to heat it on the stove top, not in the microwave. Microwave cooking kills the nutrients essential to healing.

 

How long does meat stock last?

It is best to use meat stock within the first week of preparation. Two weeks is the maximum time, unless it has been frozen.

 

CC

[Meimeiquest]

That guy is a exercise physiologist, I don't know that he brings particular expertise to the table. Long ago I read something by someone else in Australia, I don't remember who. He said pyrrole disorder is caused by difficulty converting one enzyme to another in the liver in the processing of hemoglobin. Many people in today's toxic environment have less than optimal liver function, and some people probably have a genetic mutation that makes it harder for the liver to "rise to the occasion" under oxidative stress. In the GAPS book, the doctor says she believes it is caused by overgrowth of pathogenic clostridium species in the gut. My daughter had a very high pyrrole level, and elevations of clostridium species, h.pylori, and aspergillis in her stool.

 

The chiro my daughter is seeing is one year into using a particular gut testing/treatment protocol. She is seeing patients of my pdoc, who have come up with abnormalities on Walsh testing. She says it seems that problems with gut bacteria seem to have more effect in the body's function than anyone expects. One patient was "200 pounds of brawn", taking supplements (I assume protein powder) all the time and working out a huge amount. His urine test showed him to be highly deficient in amino acids, which didn't seem to fit at all. His stool only showed h.pylori infection, but it seemed just that was enough to decrease absorption of nutrients.

 

The only things I am sure of are these: I was having horrible symptoms when I went to Mensah that were not at all representative of my whole life, and they settled down tremendously in three weeks, which was the time frame Mensah gave me and, secondly, all this stuff is at the fringe, hopefully the bleeding forward edge, of medical knowledge. It's almost impossible that all these hypotheses, beliefs, and formulas are completely correct and reliable. There is an element of risk involved, at least financially, and to just go treating yourself with no testing would be dangerous as well. But there is also risk to doing nothing (at least for some of us).

 

I do agree with the author of that article that it is wise to be checked out from a conventional standpoint of a "medical" problem, but most of us are far past that point.

[toomanymeds]

What type of changes did you see in those first three weeks with Dr. Mensah? Did he treat you before having blood work completed?

Are there symptoms of Pyyrole? High or low?

[Meimeiquest]

I was off-the-wall anxious. Almost had my first panic attack getting on the plane. No, it took forever to get started...arrange the labwork, wait for results, consultation with nurse, wait for supplements to come. It took maybe seven weeks. I went on the Paleo Autoimmune Diet while waiting and that helped some with depression and brain fog, but within three weeks on supplements the anxiety had gone way down. If I was starting over, I probably would try the Wahls Protocol, which the author used to remit her MS. Pyrrole Disorder is the only imbalance they work with that responds so quickly. I am still trying to get the copper resolved. I am thinking more and more that it may be a fallout of gut Robles. Will have to see.

[toomanymeds]

JanCarol,

When you say you are sick, can you explain what you mean by that?

[toomanymeds]

Meimeiquest ,

Is your anxiety still now under control?

[Meimeiquest]

That version is. I have come off my benzo and I still wake up early and edgy, but it goes away quickly. I do take inositol sometimes in the morning and almost always for sleep. And I may be on the lowest level of lithium I can tolerate. But what I think was the "pyrrole anxiety" is gone. My count (by urine test) is down to 6, which is normal. I didn't have any of the lifetime pyrrole symptoms. I think it may have been caused by the stress of med changes, especially stopping Wellbutrin (doctors thought that was a possibility). I think they thought the pyrrole was a blip and copper overload the real problem. I think the copper is related to gut and liver issues, and it is still a work in progress. And I am sensitive to gluten and dairy, which I haven't honored well over the holidays. So I don't mean I am "fine" but I am in a totally different place than I was two years ago.

[JanCarol]

JanCarol,

When you say you are sick, can you explain what you mean by that?

Hey Toomany - 

 

it was systemic.  You might call it autonomic dysregulation.  It started with uncomfortable heartbeat, breathlessness, that no amount of physical training or breath / pranayama could fix.  Frequent infections, usually of the throat.  As I deteriorated (and had more surgeries) I started having severe IBS, and I had diarrhea for 2-3 years.  I still have bouts, but that is more under control with the elimination of dairy and wheat.  I had annulare granuloma circular rashes under my biceps on both sides, and on my inner thighs, both sides.  I had no energy.  My cholesterol was through the roof, and I was suicidally depressed.

 

Almost a year later, the rash has cleared up, the diarrhea is better (but not eliminated).  My heartbeat and breathlessness can still get out of whack - the wrong music at the wrong time - and my fitness level is even more abysmal as I've taken a year off karate as well due to injury.  My heart checks out "okay," but "unfit," but I also know that no amount of exercise brings that stamina back up again.  When I have the heartbeat thing, I can slow my breathing and that helps my mind, but it does not slow or calm my heartbeat.  I can also soak in a magnesium bath, and while I am in the bath, my heartbeat is okay, but ramps up again as soon as I step out of the bath.  It's a thing like a bad acid trip - I just have to wait it out.  I still get depressed, grumpy, "out of sorts" (today was one such day) but little or no suicidal ideation.

 

I've seen great improvement, but I don't think that the Walsh protocol is THE answer, just some of the answers.

[toomanymeds]

I'm so sorry that you have to go through all of these symptoms! What are your IBS symptoms?

How do you make it through your days? Are you taking Walsh supplements that help you through your day?

[JanCarol]

I don't take any Walsh specific supplements - just Zinc, B6, P5P, EPO that I buy on my own.  My Walsh ortho-doc keeps trying to steer me towards expensive "practitioner only" supplements (Australia is AWFUL about controlling minerals and vitamins and herbs, making you buy expensive "practitioner only" versions "to protect you," but I wonder HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE DIED from taking zinc picolinate?  REALLY?)   And I'm tapering these back down again.  Still struggling with zinc / copper balance because of chronic diarrhea (so I "shed copper" according to Walsh protocol).

 

The IBS is a painful thing.  I went for long periods afraid to leave the house because of chronic diarrhea.  I hate leaving my own toilet.  If I were to classify, I'm IBS-A - alternating constipation and diarrhea.  But - as MeiMei and others have pointed out - Walsh doesn't address the gut.  So I've had to do other things, intensive probiotics, clay, charcoal, herbs, and tapering lithium to achieve improvement.  I honestly don't believe I had IBS before I did colorectal surgery and spent a year on coloxyl (stool softener) so that I would "wreck the surgery," with hard stool.  

 

Oh yeah, the "adrenal" or chronic fatigue thing, too.  That's a constant which remains, my ortho-doc put me on "Dr. Wilson's Adrenal Protocol" but at $120 a month for 3 years of treatment, I thought not.  I tried it a little, and got some improvement, but I have switched over to glandulars.  Adrenal, kidney, and liver glandulars with ox bile (also for IBS). 

 

So like I said, the Walsh stuff was part of the puzzle, but not the whole picture.  Not for me.  It does help to have an MD to consult with, because I don't trust nutritionists, herbalists and naturopaths to know as much as I do, after what I've been through.

[toomanymeds]

You have definitely been through the ringer!! I will keep you in my prayers.

I'm starting to work on gut issues. I am constipated and feel nauseous all the time. I also think I have slow gut motility.

Too sick to cook anything too complicated. Just making it through the day and everything calms down in the evening then it starts all over again! Not even tapering right now.

[JanCarol]

Just a reminder:  since I came to SA, I have had very little "classic withdrawal."  All of my major withdrawals were in the late 80's & 90's - my main battle is against iatrogenic changes to my endocrine system.  So I'm not recommending Walsh protocol for withdrawal, though I do find it is helpful in mood stability.

[toomanymeds]

My friend who went to Mensah Medical was suggested to start lithium or state. Anyone else here taking this through the Mensah protocol?

[toomanymeds]

Lithium oritate