Johnny10: Falling deeper into hell

[johnny10]

Hello,

 

I think I am writing here for the first time as I do not remember I that I wrote here before, I have shor-term memory problems, I will discuss it below. I sent this also to another forum and similar to this post you can find also on other forum as I am not able to write a new one, it took me a day. Maybe it will sound messy but cannot do better now.

I have 2 severe problems, akathisia for almost a year and severe problems from withdrawing venlafaxine – almost zero motivation, depression, almost lost of brain functioning – therefore lost my job so my MA degrees are worthless as I cannot think.

I will try to focus just on akathisia.

It was mirtazapine-induced, in April 2013. You can skip reading this, I will just outline a little of the background. I discontinued mirtazapine but had the same effect with trazodone. I discontinued and tried mianserin – the problem was that I started it at the same day as clonazepam so cannot see the effect on its own but I assume it was causing akathisia as well (as it is a predecessor of mirtazapine). I suspect that the reason was antagonizing alpha 2 receptors.

I took mianserin for a longer time as akathisia was disguised by clonazepam. At the beginning of August I started a magnesium citrate supplement called natural calm and at the end of August discontinued mianserin due to worsening of akathisia, however, akathisia did not go away. Only after a long time this January I found out that natural calm started to worsen extremely akathisia when I started it at the beginning of August – for this I have plenty of evidence as I am writing a diary.

At the end of December I discontinued venlafaxine after 6 years of using it for social anxiety disorder and also discontinued natural calm. Fall was hell with akathisia, but this is the bottom of the hell – as I described it above.
My question is – do you have any ideas what can help me to get rid of akathisia?

I collected over the last months plenty of information. I want to get some new ideas. I also tried a lot of anti-akathisia medications in Fall but at that time I did not know that I am still on the offending agent – natural calm – who would expect it anyway? Now things went so bad – most probably by withdrawing venlafaxine that I am basically a zombie. I reinstated venlafaxine for four weeks, had severe initial side effects and my state overall worsened so I again discontinued.

I am completely desperate – with both issues – akathisia and motivation/depression/brain stuff. Now I am really afraid about some long run damage. And I start to lose hope which has never happened before.

I am not functioning at all, cannot work because of motivation/depression/brain stuff and even cannot rest because of akathisia. So I even don’t know what to do first. If I am able I am always on the Internet looking for solutions and waiting if venlafaxine will start to work again at least on motivation/depression/brain, my SAD is somewhere in the back now.
 

Things got much worse since then, though it was already hell.

 

I stopped reinstatement of venlafaxine as it made me much worse still after four weeks as I said.

 

I tried several things, each just for one day, folic acid, vitamin B6, ashwagandha (for akathisia), each made my state worse. Then I withdrawn omega 3 capsules (altough still getting enough from fishes everyday) and lecithin. Then things started to get even worse, like the hell has no bottom. I went back on omega 3 capsules and lecithin but things are still awful.

 

My short-term memory does not work, I hardly know what was the day before, luckily I keep diary. I am in depression constantly. Still have awful akathisia, also in the sense that when I had some motivation and listened to one song after it I had to run over the room to get rid of extreme tension. But now I don’t have any motivation.

 

I don’t want to be long just ask people who maybe suffered something similar. How did you cure?

 

I mean, I cannot take antidepressants as reinstating just subtherapeutic dose of 20 mg of venlafaxine made me even worse. So I do not see a potential in any psychiatric medication, or?

 

I cannot go to mental institution as in my country it is really bad and it would make me worse – the environment, bad food, strict regime when to do what and a lot of other things.

At least till now I was not able to tell it to anyone from my family, because they are not very understanding as my disease started there so it can be made even worse by their reaction and it can also damage them. So I am alone.

Doctors almost do not believe me. Anyway, they can only prescribe medication which I am extremely sensitive to. So there is no help in this way.

Just to mention, this situation is most probably due to withdrawing both venlafaxine and natural calm, and very possible that more due to withdrawing natural calm (magnesium supplement).

 

Anyway, there is brain damage and I want to repair it. What is an option for me is I only think diet and probably supplements.

So I would ask you, what was your diet while getting over brain damage – if you had it – and if some supplements were helpful.

I completely changed my diet, trying to eat as healthy as possible. I take omega 3 capsules, lecithin, vitamin C, vitamin D (I was diagnosed as defficient) and multivitamin.

 

Did you find any particular food or supplement which helped you? I would be grateful for any advices. Thank you very much in advance.

[Hopefull]

Hi Johnny,

 

 

I wish you all the best. I am not an expert but can empathise with your situation. I am sure that someone from this forum will be able to advise you.  I personally found that I became sensitive even to fish oil and some herbal remedies. I stopped taking anything and let my brain heal even though I felt I was in hell!  Maybe you should consider not taking anything for a while and see how you go. Give your brain a chance to heal . As I said I am not an expert, I am only speaking from my own personal experience. Don't loose hope and solder on.  All the best to you!

[mammaP]

Hi Johnny, I'm sorry to read your painful story,  we can help you but it will take time.

 

I have to say that I doubt very much that magnesium has caused your symptoms of akathisia.

It is a very distressing condition that I have suffered from personally and others here are going

through it here. It is a side effect of medication and withdrawal. Mirtazepine in particular seems to 

have that effect on many people but is a side effect of many other medications too.

 

First of all you have become sensitised to the drugs and the 20mg of venlafaxine you reinstated

with would have been far too high a dose for you.   I suffered withdrawal from venlafaxine and

reinstated just 5 beads from a capsule. (1mg) It helped within days but even that was too much

and I reduced to 4 beads. Then I started to get better. It is a very slow process  to stabilise but

the worst symptoms subsided.  

 

At 4 months off it might not work but if I were you I would try that very tiny dose of 1mg and see

how it goes.   It is the absence of the drug in your body that is causing the problems,

you are in severe withdrawal and the only cure is reinstatement. When you have stabilised 

you can then start a slow taper from there. 

 

If you can manage to do it, could you put a list of the drugs you took and the doses, plus when

started and stopped? It will appear at the bottom of your posts and help us to help you. 

 

Here is how to do that. http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/893-please-put-your-withdrawal-history-in-your-signature/

 

A topic on reinstating and stabilisinghttp://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/3079-about-reinstating-and-stabilizing-to-stop-withdrawal-symptoms/. 

 

And a link to our symptoms and self help forum.http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/forum/8-symptoms-and-self-care/

 

You will get better, and understanding what is happening to you will make a huge difference. 

 

Please take care with supplements, many of them make things worse but many of us do find that 

fish oil and magnesium help with withdrawal. Maybe there was something else added to the magnesium

that made it worse, I had magnesium that had added B6 and had to stop it. I bought  plain magnesium

glycinate and it made a huge difference!   

[bubble]

Hello Johnny and welcome to SA!

 

I'm were glad you have found us and so sorry you are feeling so unwell and going through this alone. Writing from a place not so far from you I know very well what you mean by hospitals and family.

 

I understand that you are struggling with writing, I did so myslef when I first came here. But to offer you our opinion nad advice, we would find it very helpful if you can put your drug history in your signature when you can. It's not so complicated.

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/893-please-put-your-withdrawal-history-in-your-signature/

 

I will try to sum up your situation from what you wrote for my understanding:

 

It was mirtazapine-induced, in April 2013.  I discontinued mirtazapine but had the same effect with trazodone. I discontinued and tried mianserin

 

At the end of December I discontinued venlafaxine after 6 years of using it

 

Does this mean mirtazapine was added while you were taking venlafaxine? Akathisia that you are describing is definitely a sign that mirtazapine seriously disagreed with you and all subsequent changes with adding and removing drugs were making the whole situation even worse...

 

You didn't say how fast you were reducing Venlafaxine but judging by your symptoms it was obviously way too fast for your brain to catch up and regrow. There is no such thing as brain damage and our brains are remarkeably resilient. 

 

I mean, I cannot take antidepressants as reinstating just subtherapeutic dose of 20 mg of venlafaxine made me even worse.

 

When did you try to reinstate? Your CNS probably became too sensitized by then and the dose you took was too high (we advise much lower, almost symbolic doses after you have been off medication for some time. And they often work miraculously).

 

I see two replies have arrived as I was writing this because here we just can't sit still when we hear somebody is alone and suffering...

 

So to sum up: to offer further advise we will need information on your last dose of venlafaxine: what dose you were taking, how fast were you reducing (monthly, weekly, daily - approximate dates if you remember), what was the last dose you took before stopping in December and when did you try to reinstate?

 

best,

 

bubble

[johnny10]

Thank you very much for all your responses, they are very helpful for me.

 

I am sorry, I cannot reply fully, as my state fluctuates and I am not always able to do this.

 

Hopefull: The same happened to me, totally sensitive like never before to a lot of stuff. I would like to stop the supplements but it is a double-edged sword. They can do harm, however, some can be lifesaving now. And of course I do not know. And the state worsened hugely last few days as I withdrawn lecithin and omega 3 capsules. I think it was rather lecithin. So it is hard to stop some, I stopped only two, and even now I do not know who was the culprit, lecithin or omega 3. So I think I cannot risk in this sensitive stae. If I can ask, did you take anything to heal your brain, I mean if you have only idea about food not either supplements? As I believe there are options.

 

mammaP: Actually I have almost proof that natural calm worsened immensely my akathisia. I tried to reinstate it two months after withdrawing and was slowly increasing it to very high dose for me (although just recommended dose) and it caused me the last day on it just to walk the whole day from room to room. I do not say it was magnesium causing akathisia as there was one big stabilization for a few days in February and it was due to very high almonds intake, which contains a lot of magnesium (although I do not know about absorption). So it looks that natural calm was harming me by probably citric acid or smth else. So rather a cruel test but unintentionally I found out that it was natural calm (I wasn't changing anything else).

 

I can very relate to you as I also tried to reinstate just for four days on 1,25 mg, which was 10 pellets for me (I had 37,5 mg capsules) but the reaction wasn't very good. As now I swithched to idea that this state is more a problem of withdrawing natural calm than venalfaxine, although I think it is a combination, just now put more weight on natural calm. I can try to justify it and will write my story of last year and shortly summarize the years before, but in this state it can take days and I don't know what will be. But I will work on this. I am also afraid of withdrawing from just 10 pellets as the reductions are percentually huge and they will keep my sensitivity high and I will be on AD which means restrictions on other possible treatments. And most importantly I don't know the final result and have rather  bad experince with venlafaxine.

 

Thanks for all the links, I will try to work om that these days if I will be capable.

 

bubble: I know that I sounded messy but it is difficult these times and I will try to elaborate more on this and put my story here. Yes, mirtazapine was added during venalafaxine - it was probably the best drug I have taken and worked miracles on my SAD but I found out since then that never underestimate the side effects. If only I knew it will end up like this I would never do that. Actually over time I learned that for SAD is the best cognitive behavioral therapy which gave me excellent results and no drugs are needed - therefore my strong desire to ged rid of psychiatric medications.

 

Actually, reducing venlafaxine gave me the best feeling in my life, and after reinstating (as after withdrawing came quite big fall) it was ok in the sense of brain(memory/thinking)/mood/motivation, but I will write about this in my story as it is quite complicated.

 

As you say you usually recommend reinstating at symbolic dose, how long should it take to feel something, as I reinstated once again maybe three weeks ago 1,25 mg but the days were worse then the days before. And as I say I think it is more a natural calm withdrawal as crazy as it may sound.

 

Great to know that you live somewhere close, if I can ask which country are you from (if you want to say, if not, it is ok)?

 

Thanks for all the great replies, I wil try to add my story and update my mediacation as it is a lot. And it can take days, depends on my state. But you gave me encouragement. Thanks

 

I dont have energy to read it after myself but hope it is ok.

[Wolfhound]

Hi! I wanted to say hello to you because you come from a country that once was more than a neigborough for my country:-) But not only because of this.

I am very sorry for your suffering. I had akathisia as well and I would say that the only thing to cure it is time. It is quite hopeless, even for me, since it seems a never ending story. But if you search on the net, there´s a web or a blog about akathisia run by a nice lady - a sufferer from akathisia as well.

And I would recommend reading one study done by an Australian psychiatrist, dr. Yolanda Lucire. You may have a genetic mutation that causes the drug reaction. But I don ´t know if you can test it in Slovakia...

You can PM me whenever you feel up to, if communication about the problem can help you.

I am no specialist about reinstating.

[Rhiannon]

Hello--I am so sorry for your suffering. 

 

I have seen hundreds of people go through what you are going through, as the result of being put on multiple drugs and then taken off them again much too fast, changed to other ones, and so forth. What you are experiencing is much more common than any medical person wants to admit.

 

I cannot speak about the effect of the magnesium because this is the first time I have heard of magnesium causing akathisia, but anything is possible, all of our bodies are different.

 

It is normal for symptoms to come and go. We call this "windows and waves."

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/82-the-windows-and-waves-pattern-of-recovery/

 

Usually what happens is when we have a wave we start looking at everything we did the day or two before the wave. Did I eat something different? Did I do something different? Sometimes we can find a cause but often the waves just come and go for no particular reason. 

 

So don't be alarmed, and try not to react too much to every little up and every little down. You would have ups and downs if you changed nothing at all.  It is best during withdrawal to try not to change things very much. 

 

After this much time, reinstatement of a tiny dose doesn't always help people. It sounds like you tried it and you felt worse. It is possible that it is not a solution for you. We usually encourage people to try reinstating at a tiny dose, but if you are certain that your reinstatement at 1.25 actually made things worse, then perhaps it is not a solution for you. 

 

If you do want to try it again, try taking 1 mg only, and give it a full six days. If after six days on 1 mg a day you are feeling worse than before, then reinstatement is probably not going to work for you. 

 

The main cure for your suffering is going to be the passage of time, I am sorry to say. This is true even for people who manage to reinstate on a small dose. The small dose only cushions the symptoms a bit, there is still much healing that has to happen.

 

During that time you can help yourself a little by making a life that supports your CNS in healing itself and calming itself. I would start by reducing stress in your life as much as you can. We find that often short, gentle walks in nature are helpful. If you find the bright sunlight too stimulating, wear dark glasses. Don't spend too much time in front of a computer screen as that can be too stimulating. Try to keep your environment calming, as soothing as possible. I find it helpful to listen to soothing, calming music.

 

At the same time, do try to get out of the house a bit and see if you can get some social support. Being alone and isolated makes the symptoms worse, it actually affects our nervous system because we evolved to be social animals, so being alone too much causes the release of anxiety hormones.  So if you have any understanding friends, spend a little time with them. Sometimes I will even just go to a quiet library to be around other people when I need that.

 

Gentle exercise may be helpful, but exercise can also be stimulating, so it's best to take it slow.

 

I have seen many people who were suffering just as you are right now, who went on to recover eventually. It takes time, often a couple of years or longer, but except for a few extremely rare cases everyone does recover. Your brain will come back and you will get to use those college degrees again one day!

 

If you read through the topics "pinned" at the top of our Symptoms and Self Care section you will see lots of ideas of things that we have found usually help and support people in withdrawal. 

 

However, the only thing that really "fixes" people is time.

 

Also, it sounds to me like you are somebody who is very sensitive to psychiatric drugs and you should probably never take them again. Be sure, in the future, when you are well again, to make sure your doctors understand that you have a severe reaction to psychiatric drugs and they are not an option for you. Even the drug companies admit that this is true for a small percentage of people.

 

Good luck to you. I'm glad you are here. 

[Altostrata]

Welcome, Johnny.

 

I can't really add to the excellent comments above, I agree that one way or another, your nervous system has become highly sensitized to drugs, supplements, etc.

 

Occasionally people do report that fish oil is activating, but rarely magnesium. It is possible that you took so much Natural Calm, you got a bad reaction. We find that more is not better when a person is sensitized -- there's no such thing as a "therapeutic" dose, each person is different. It could be a small amount of magnesium will be helpful to you.

 

Does your akathisia take the form of tension in your legs? A small amount of potassium might help there, too.

[Muddles]

Sorry to hear you are suffering. I dont have a lot of advice or solutions to you. its a terrible condition - i have had it and very sensitive to medication. I just pray that you get some relief soon. You can do this.

 

I am interested in the Genetic mutation theory.

Does anyone know where I could get tested for this in the UK?

[johnny10]

Thank you guys for so much support so quickly. I wasnt expecting this much. Thanks

 

Wolfhound: already PMed you:)

 

Rhi: thank you for so many advices. Actually most of the things I am doing everyday. Actually I dont think magnesium aggravated my akathisia hugely but natural calm, which is a magnesium supplement but not pure magnesium. I read about several very bad reactions to it today. According to amazon it is the best selling magne supplement but unfortunately we are different, so my reaction was very oppite to most reactions in the reviews.

 

I take a diary so I can always check what was the change and thats what Im doing everyday. But the most problematic are lags, if somethings works later and sometimes days. One of the most extreme examples are ADs where for SSRIs it can take weeks. So if I try something I always need to check how fast it works and how fast it leaves the body, as if my choice is wrong I dont want to suffer long. Imade e.g. a mistake that I tried folic acid as I thought all the B vitamins are excreted within a day but after I was suffering from bad reaction even the next day I researched it more and found that this is not true for some vitamins, actually I think B12 is the most extreme as it could take even years.

 

After I reinstated 1,25 mg of venlafaxine I didnt have a severe reaction but rather bad. But I didnt know for how long i sould bear it after the first cruel reinstatement so I finished after 4 days. But if you say 6 days should be enough now I have a good advice from somebody who has lot of experience so maybe I will try it. But ADs are at least for now past for me, so it is the last resort. Maybe most ai am afraid that if I reinstated 1,25 mg its only 10 pellets and tapering down would be huge decrease for me, so I thought from the long-run perspective it wasnt good for me. But it would be great if you could advise me from your experince on this.

 

And I try to take it easy as I have always been a person who is like that and calm and with a sense of hunor. I think this and strong faith that once it will be good keeps me alive after so much time. But I will try to summarize everything in my story. And I listen to calming music all day long, even now:)

 

I also hope I will be able to think like before, thanks:) Actually I think for me it is rather a withdrawal from natural calm than from venlafaxine, as I withdrawn venlafaxine for 2 weeks in the summer and saw withdrawals on me, and it was rather a return to state before medications rather than withdrawal symptoms. But I didnt lost motivation/mood/brain as I was writing theses that time so everything was correct as I remember as for these symptoms. But I will try to explain it in the summary of my state which i hope Ill be able to write.

 

Altostrata: Actually at that time I wasnt so sensitive and I took extremely small dose as at first it gave me gastro discomfort. But as magnesium should be calming I continued to take it unfortunately. But it was natural calm itself, I doubt it can be magnesium as it is in a lot of meals and I take it now from meals.

 

I dont feel the tension in legs, actually I started to feel it after I got a prescription for one drug agains restless leg syndrome. But discontinued quickly. What for can be potassium helpful? I think I get that in food, I should check it.

 

Muddles: I see there are a lot of people too much sensitive.

 

Thank you all the people for helping me, it is so great. Sorry for being so long but for me it is encouraging as in the morning I would not be able to do this. I am very happy that registered here.

[WinningThrough]

Hello Johnny10

 

I am so so sorry to hear of all that you are going through :-(

 

Akathisia is just awful beyond words. I have it too and you have so much sympathy from me.

 

Interesting what you said about the calm powder. Magnesium is great but I'm not doing great with calm powder either. Just started using it. I'm sure it's the citric acid in it. I'm pretty sure citric acid has grapefruit in it and grapefruit interacts with a lot of drugs, particularly psychiatric ones.

 

Have you tried propranolol for your akathisia?

 

My heart goes out to you. I hope you get some relief soon.

[Altostrata]

How do you feel the akathisia?

 

I have never heard of anyone having withdrawal from magnesium of any type.

[Muddles]

Winning through - I have read somewhere else that the calm powder aggravated Akathisia. I looked into getting some earlier on in the year but decided against it.

[cymbaltawithdrawal5600]

 

I have never heard of anyone having withdrawal from magnesium of any type.

 

Magnesium was a life saver for me when I destabilized last year. I started off using the Calm powder but due to it's laxative effects, I could not get a high enough dose to stop my palpitations and reduce my anxiety. It was not until I switched to mag citrate tablets that everything started working without bowel upset. I had read that magnesium ingested in amounts over the body's need for it is excreted in the urine without detriment to the kidneys. The tablets allowed water to move into the bowel but not in amounts causing the runs. And the maximum amount that could be taken before toxicity seemed pretty high.

 

But over time I just kept feeling sicker in a way hard to explain, a real heavy and just plain old 'sick' feeling. A post from one of our members gave me the idea that the 400-600 mgs a day I had been taking might be causing the sick feeling. So I cut down to 300 mg a day and I am starting to come out of the woods. That heavy feeling just isn't there anymore.

 

I do not believe that magnesium aggravates akasthisia, quite the contrary. I think it can help it but not totally eradicate it. There's more going on in the nervous system than just mineral deficiencies.......

 

 

I'm sure it's the citric acid in it. I'm pretty sure citric acid has grapefruit in it and grapefruit interacts with a lot of drugs, particularly psychiatric ones.

 

This quote from Muddles is off the mark I'm afraid. Grapefruit HAS citric acid because it is a 'citrus' fruit. Not the other way around. But there is something about grapefruit in particular that seems to interact in not a good way with certain meds, hence the caution in using it.

 

Calm powder really gave me the runs because that's what liquid magnesium does. Ever hear of Milk of Magnesia? Or the stuff you have to take before barium xrays? Mag citrate on steroids. That's why the tablets are better, you can take a smaller dose more frequently and it's absorbed slower. Hence not as much upset.

[johnny10]

Winning Through, thanks for the sympathy, you have also mine, as we know how it feels. Propranolol is not available in my country so I cannot try it even if iw was a lifesaver. I tried metoprolol but that is non-selective beta blocker just for beta1 receptors while metoprolol acts om all beta receptors.

 

Probably if you are not doing well with natural calm you rather do not try it, there are other magne supplements. I can tell only from my experience but everybody is different, on one site about akathisia, akathisiainfo blog, the gorl suffered extremely and she recommends natural calm, so everybody is different, And it is the magne bestseller at amazon.

 

If you ara not doing good with natural calm maybe another magne supplement can be helpful. If I knew what would cause natural calm to me I would flush it the same day as it came. But I didnt suspect natural calm was doing it, who would suspect magne supplement anyway?

 

Altostrata, my feeling of akathisia in the body sometimes changes. For the withdrawals of natural calm I started to decrease natural calm 2 weeks after withdrawing venlafaxine and then the memory/thinking stuff came and later depression which I never had before, before medications or on medications, I think it was rather a combination of both withdrawals, venlafaxine and natural calm, but now I give higher weight to natural calm. It obviously had huge impact on me while taking it, and not the good ones but very strange, worsening of akathisia, so I think withdrawals are possible. And actually I withdrawn it for 2 days after longer using and one evening I felt like zombie, maybe for the first time, which is a huge impact, and it went aways after quickly taking natural calm.

 

cymbaltawithdrawal5600, I dont say natural calm is bad in general, it just almost destroyed my life, so it was my personal reaction. Everybody is different. And as I said, I dont say that magnesium aggravates akathisia, I get plenty of it in food and its ok. It was natural calm itself. Bad luck.

Edited July 24, 2014 by Altostrata
at poster's request

[WinningThrough]

Hi Johnny.

 

I've switched back to my normal magnesium tablets. I have candida and citric acid is one of the things that aggravates that so I think that's why I the calm powder didn't agree with me. Straight magnesium tablets are great though. I go on the website you mentioned..the lady who runs it is lovely.

 

CW, it was me who gave the wrong information about grapefruit in citric acid :-)

[bubble]

It seems you've been snowed under with support  

 

I myself feel a bit lost at the moment. The discussion has moved towards magnesium but for the sake of a bigger picture I'd just like to understand whether we have concluded that almost 5 months after the discontinuation and what was definitely a failed attempt of reinstatement, we will now drop the idea of reinstating, treat your situation as protracted withdrawal and focus on managing the symptoms?

 

The other option is to maybe attemp yet another reinstatement at a very low dose and monitor the effects. If the symptoms get worse, we know it isn't working and we have to follow the first course of action. Since 1,25 mgs or 10 pellets was obviously too much and considering that even more time has passed since then, my wild guess would be maybe 2 pellets and if the symptoms don't get worse and there is a faintest of relief, this could maybe be slightly updosed.

 

Just thinking out loud and appreciate feedback from anyone...

[Petunia]

Hi Johnny,

 

I'm sorry for everything you have been through and for you continued suffering. I'm also in protracted withdrawal and had a bad reaction from trying to reinstate.

 

It would be helpful if you would put your drug and withdrawal history in your signature, it makes it easier to see your situation and know what to suggest.  You can also list supplements too if there is room.  Instructions for how to do that are here:

 

http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/893-please-put-your-withdrawal-history-in-your-signature/

 

Just thinking out loud and appreciate feedback from anyone...

 

Hi Bubble,

It looks to me like there has been 2 attempts at reinstatement, which caused worsening of symptoms, so I would be hesitant to try another one.

[bubble]

 

 

Just thinking out loud and appreciate feedback from anyone...

 

Hi Bubble,

It looks to me like there has been 2 attempts at reinstatement, which caused worsening of symptoms, so I would be hesitant to try another one.

 

Thanks a lot Petu!

 

I think Johnny now has everything he needs to make his own informed decision on how to proceed. 

[johnny10]

Thanks for all your support, it is just great!

 

Sorry, I have not a lot of energy, so I dont read bymyself what I wrote. Just wanted to correct myself not to give bad information. Propranolol is non-selective beta blocker and metoprolol is selective for beta1 receptors. I would edit my post if it is possible, but it would drain me to find out how.

 

WinningThrough, I think it was a very good step. At least I would do that.

 

bubble, yeah, I see all the support, its great, thanks so much! I can try to reinstate but dont know how long to wait. When I reinstated in March, it was for three weeks on 18,75 mg, 4th week lower to 10 mg. So waited quite long but thats the problem, I dont want to suffer from reinstatement like before. I can try to reinstate at lower dose but still I am afriad that if it would work even greatly There would be huge problem of tapering down from such a small dose and it would continue to keep my sensitivity to medications, which is dangerous for me, I cannot take anything, I think I cannot go to anesthesia, or if smth happened and I would faint and doctors just do correctly what they should do and put smth in normal dose to me for me it would be very dangerous.

 

Maybe the most important now is to know how long to wait on reinstatement - do you have any suggestions, as you have so much experience from this site?

 

And sorry for the messy info, I will try to upload how it all happened.

 

Petu, I will work on this and put there everything, I know now it sounds like a mess.

[bubble]

Thanks for all your support, it is just great!

 

 

bubble, yeah, I see all the support, its great, thanks so much! I can try to reinstate but dont know how long to wait. When I reinstated in March, it was for three weeks on 18,75 mg, 4th week lower to 10 mg. So waited quite long but thats the problem, I dont want to suffer from reinstatement like before. I can try to reinstate at lower dose but still I am afriad that if it would work even greatly There would be huge problem of tapering down from such a small dose and it would continue to keep my sensitivity to medications, which is dangerous for me, I cannot take anything, I think I cannot go to anesthesia, or if smth happened and I would faint and doctors just do correctly what they should do and put smth in normal dose to me for me it would be very dangerous.

 

Maybe the most important now is to know how long to wait on reinstatement - do you have any suggestions, as you have so much experience from this site?

 

And sorry for the messy info, I will try to upload how it all happened.

 

Petu, I will work on this and put there everything, I know now it sounds like a mess.

 

As you saw, we are not medical professionals. We just offer opinions for you to consider when making your own decision or whenever possible discussing it with your doctor. (I totally understand how hard if not impossible that might be in Slovakia).

 

So longe after discontinuation all bets are off. I have much less experience than Petu who said that this far out, with two failed reinstatements she would be hesitant to try another one.

 

I believe you understand that whatever decision you make, it will have to be yours since you will be the one living with its consequences.

 

• If the last dose was more than 3 months ago, reinstatement is really a long shot and it might not work. All bets are off. Some people found relief, for others it didn't work and in some cases it made things even worse (which is of course the least desireable outcome).
•  
• If you decide to try it, you should take a very small dose. If that helps but isn't enough, you always have a possibility to increase. If it doesn't help or makes symptoms worse, stop immediately. (How small is the actual question? I guess really a few pellets).

The decision is yours. We just provide information and will continue to support you regardless of which course you decide to take. 

 

If I were you, I'd wait for the opinion of our main expert here, Alto. 

 

Hope this additional explanation helps and doesn't confuse you.

 

How are you doing symptom-wise? When I first came to this forum, I was reading an awful lot. I couldn't do anything else actually except reading and only reading about what was bothering me. So again, if I were you, I'd try to read from the links you were suggested (just don't get too overhelmed: there's so much so excellent information). 

 

take care!

 

bubble

[Muddles]

 

 

This quote from Muddles is off the mark I'm afraid. Grapefruit HAS citric acid because it is a 'citrus' fruit. Not the other way around. But there is something about grapefruit in particular that seems to interact in not a good way with certain meds, hence the caution in using it.

 

Don't remember making that quote????

[WinningThrough]

You didn't..it was me!

[johnny10]

Thank you veru much bubble. Actually, I think ADs are for me the last resort. Therefore I didnt consider reinstating thinking even how hard it would be to go off the medication then from such a low dose.

 

I also read a lot from this forum before I joined it so have some information. It is that I have such strange reactions to things which should help. So I hoped maybe there is somebody here with similar symptoms and found something helpful.

 

Symptoms are as described in the name of the post. I think this is even worse than when I reinstated venlafaxine, after withdrawing it was better, but I tried other things which probably made it worse. I will try to summarize it in one post.

 

Basically I cannot do anything. I cannot listen to a single song, as it worsens akathisia that much that I need to run to get rid of the pressure, I cannot play guitar, I cannot watch movies, even a few minutes, even in the times when there is some motivation because of akathisia. Having depression, problems with short-term memory/thinking, little motivation and akathisia.

 

It is like a vicious cycle. For resolving depression I need to do things which I like and it can slowly improve. But if I do things which I like in the times when I have motivation it increases my akathisia. For resolving my akathisia I probably need to stay most of the time calm. But this further worsens depression and other symptoms.

 

Therefore it is hard for me to resolve this in a psychological way. It is almost wholly biological.

 

I had one great stabilization on huge amounts of almonds - i took them because of high magnesium content but they could have helped in any way, I checked the nutrition inside them. However, now I dont see the positive effect anymore. Previous 2 days I tried 300 almonds a day but didnt see any effect - from the past I know it should show up approximately the second day in the evening in its full effect. But didnt see anything extraordinary.

[bubble]

We have a man with the plan here

 

One other thing that helps survive these horrible times (because things almost inevitably do get better) is to practice looking at things we can do and which work: I can fall asleep, I can sleep, etc. Mourning the (temporary) loss of our identity is so very natural. I spent years doing it but now I'm trying to work on this approach which I found very helpful.  

[johnny10]

Yep, I have a plan:)

 

You actually read my mind even without seeing me:) I try to look at everything from the bright side. This is one of the things which keep me alive. But in past days it is impossible sometimes, like two hours ago I lay in my bed for a while and felt what probably dying people feel, it was worse than zombie which I felt a lot of times. My brain was off so I wasnt able to think brightly. But the bright side was that I was able to lay in my bed for a while which is cool:)

 

I just want to stabilize for now.

[bubble]

I guess you were reading about windows and waves? It's like a cramp, clutches you and then let's you go and so on....

 

you will make it!

[johnny10]

Thank you very much bubble, its very supporting.

 

I just need a longer time to see how it goes as this is really bottom for now. After some time I found out that hell has no bottom but still believe in myself.

 

And Im looking forward when it will be windows and waves as this time it sounds to me too nice. I would love to have only waves, I had them before, but this is stronger, not only waves.

 

But last two hours is more of a window, so thats great:) If I can write here smth its very postive for me as I am capable of it.

[Hopefull]

Hi Johnny,

 

To answer your question in regards "if I took anything to heal my brain"? I tried many things at the beginning, fish oil, magnesium, herbal supplements and nothing agreed with me not even magnesium! I had a really bad reaction to AD more then what I wrote in my story.  I found that acupuncture helped me a lot but the herbs did not. I found acupuncture calming. I did try hyperbaric chamber treatment once, but I did not continue with it as it is costly. I was advised that you need to have at least 4 one hour treatments a week  for 2 months to see the difference that is about 40 treatments. It was too costly to continue. I have read about hyperbaric treatments and it is supposed to help with healing the brain. Everyone is different and there is no guarantee that it will work.  Please this is not a medical advise everything is based on my own personal experience. I am sure that healthy diet would improve your well being. Time is your best friend and you just have to hang in there and let the time heal you. I know that this can be frustrating and you might feel hopeless and not see the way out of dark hell hole, but you will emerge triumphant no matter how hard it is. Believe me, everyone on this site has been through their own personal hell for whatever reason, you just have to stay strong and fight! You will have good days and bad days but you have to work through the bad days! I am still recovering emotionally and working through it everyday. The AD's have changed me as a person and I still don't feel like my self but I have learnt to accept the situation as it is and try to live with it. I really hope that you too can find the strength inside you to push through the dark times and don't loose hope!!!!!!! KEEEP GOING!  I found it helpful to hold on to one really happy memory when I was really down to help me keep going! I wish you all the best and DON'T LOOSE HOPE!

[johnny10]

Thank you very much Hopefull for all the advices. I just dont know what is going on the last days. Actually once I stabilized on almonds for a few days and my thinking came back completely 100 %. Also motivation improved hugely and also akathisia improved. Then I slowly stopped them because I was afraid of taking so much a day, I dont know how many it was but it was a lot. If I knew that it will go down then I would continue eating them. I tried them much later but they do not seem to work, at least not like that time. I just dont know what happened.

[johnny10]

Can somebody help me or give information on somebody, some nutritionist, or somebody, who would be able to explain me possible ways how almonds helped me so much. I did my own research but really cannot say now.

[mammaP]

I don't know anything about the benefits of almonds other than it is a very healthy food,

but I have seen many people here who have been helped by some foods or supplements,

only to find that after a while it no longer seems to work, or starts to work against them and

make symptoms worse.   

 

GiaK ( Monica from Beyondmeds.com) posted in symptoms and selfcare about her experience

with herbs and how herbs helped for a time. http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/6370-wow-i%E2%80%99m-thrilled%E2%80%A6lab-work-proves-i%E2%80%99m-doing-it-right-httpwpmep5nnb-arn/

 

What she said makes sense to me, and made me think that maybe if we are deficient in certain

minerals etc, then large quantities might make us feel better, but take it for too long and  they could start

to have an adverse effect.  

 

I don't know if this is the same for you but just thought I would share it . 

[johnny10]

Thank you very much mammaP, I have the same worry, but I can "taper down" the food slowly. For me even a short stabilization helps. But if I knew which part of almonds is good for me then maybe I can do smth with it.

[bubble]

I can't help except to say that I find it a very interesting phenomenon.

 

I would never have thought almonds have such power (but I tend to underestimate the power of food, herbs and supplements ;( so that's a very good reminder for me. 

[johnny10]

Hello,

 

I am trying to substitute lecithin which I was taking in capsule (2x 1 200 mg), with some food. I am withrawing it in order to get rid of of all possible causing agents of akathisia. The withdrawals which I got from withdrawing lecithin are smth I have never experienced. The withdrawals which I got from venlafaxine was a fairy tale compared to this. They are mental, it is like losing my brain. I finished on ER for the first time when I almost fainted, but it wasnt fainting, it was like mentally dying. I will rather not describe previous weeks, I even was not able to come here. But if somebody knows, I would appreciate any advice.

 

I am trying to substitute lecithin, as my brain looks like it became dependent on it. So I eat huge amount of food rich in choline. But lecithin contains phosphatidylcholine, which then anyway changes to choline, but it looks like I need phosphatidylcholine. Are there any food sources of phosphatidylcholine, not choline? Or do you have any idea how to substitute lecithin?

 

Maybe its more different, because lecithin contains so many things. The feeling in my forearms is weak, I had little energy, a lot of my normal function are just like going away. I dont understand how it can affect so many things. Everything started on withdrawing lecithin, but when I tried to come back on it, the reaction was even worse, so there is no way back on it. I need to substitute it.

 

Probably it is  strange question here, but I have no idea where to ask.

[Altostrata]

Welcome, johnny10.

 

You are the first person I've met to ask about going off lecithin.

 

Rather than substituting anything, I would gradually reduce it. How are you measuring your intake each day?